why is there so much indiscriminate hate for religion on DU

[onenote]

I understand that religion can and, these days, frequently is, used to adovocate reactionary, intolerant positions. But what I don't understand is why so many DU'ers indisciminately bash religion in general or specific rituals. For example, there have been several threads mocking the process by which the Catholic Church selects a Pope. Why? What other rituals are fair game? All religions have them. Should we mock Jews for cicumcision or keeping kosher or for having ceremonies where they wave a palm frond and lemon (as substitutes for the biblical era "lulav and etrog")? What about fasting by Moslems or wearing skullcaps?

Being a person of faith does not make you backwards or silly or irrational. For those of us who came of age during the Civil Rights and Vietnam era, some of our greatest heroes were religious leaders: REV. Martin Luther King; FATHER Phil Berrigan (and his brother). THis tradition continues today: http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines03/0208-07.htm

It seems that some DUers are intent on substituting their own orthodoxy in place of what they perceive to be the othodoxy of religion. Yes, all manner of crimes and horrors have been perpetrated in the name of religion. But many great, kind, and good leaders and philosophers have spoken and worked for peace and justice, also in the name of religion.

I suggest that there are some DUers who have some growing up to do...

onenote

[Bridget Burke]

1. Some DU'ers were far too religious in their youth....

And are rebelling now.

Others were raised to hate certain religions & continue the tradition. But that's not "indiscriminate."

[Rich Hunt]

9. yes, very true

...and some simply misunderstand some very basic American principles (i.e., tolerance) that they should have mastered in grammar school.

[MountainLaurel]

16. Others were terrorized by religion

As children, and still carry the scars and resentment. Rather than bitching about it, try listening to their stories and understand their justifiable outrage.

[Rich Hunt]

23. does that 'justifiable outrage'

...include outright bigotry? Because that's what I have seen in some cases here.

Some of us were subjected to bigotry by those who hate the religion we were born into. Apparently, you haven't considered the other side.

I suspect that much of the bigotry is <i>cultural</i> and not a rational disagreement with doctrine. If it were, some of these reactionaries wouldn't use such hysterical and sweeping language.

[Lars39]

36. Thank you.

Someone on another thread called it 'spiritual abuse'.

[Bridget Burke]

42. They are still mad at Mommy & Daddy....

Pathetic.

[MountainLaurel]

51. Not at Mommy and Daddy

But at the INSTITUTIONS that taught their parents GOD wants them to throw their gay 14-year-old out of the house, that GOD will punish mommy for leaving their abusive daddy, that seeing a psychiatrist is a sin, that it was their fault the priest bent them over the altar, because the priest would never do anything wrong.

Things are so simple for you people, aren't they?

[Lars39]

57. Who said anything about them?

[neebob]

2. They secretly long to be told to grow up?

Perhaps they weren't told to grow up enough in childhood.

[SaveElmer]

3. I don't think it is Religion itself

It's the hypocrisy of certain religious leaders and those who blindly follow them that come in for the most contempt.

[merh]

11. I agree with your take on things.

Thank you for saying what I would have tried to say if you hadn't said what you said.
:hi:

ditto!

[heidler1]

37. Because Religion has aligned itself with Bush and visa versa.

IMO Bush deserves to be attacked over his spin on being a Christian while simultaneously exemplifying what is thought by most Liberals as anti- Christian greed and aiding and abetting this greed in the rich. There is bound to be a spill over of this disgust among Liberals until the true Christians come out in force against Bush's policies. Christians might solve this by sponsoring a march on Washington to show their true colors.

[forgethell]

68. Right, and Muslims

should sponsor a march on Washington, plus a dozen Arab capitals, to spell out the disgust about the terrorism that is conducted by those that claim to be good Muslims.

[Megami Kitsune]

90. but why condemn members of your own religion when you can blame others

Muslim leaders frequently blame a Jewish conspiracy for their
woes.  Japanese may read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
but no one thinks it is real, just a good guide to the
materistic acquisition of power (which most Japanese oppose). 
Muslims, Arabs in particular, still seem to view the work as
an authentic piece; it was even made into a mini-series of
some sort in Egypt the Arab media-capital.

Kitsune

[funflower]

113. Jesus was a liberal

Liberal Christians do need to be more visible. Usually, they are too polite to justify their political beliefs with scripture, but many liberal Christians and other liberal religious folk are involved with non-religious liberal organizations. They just don't send TV ratings through the roof like Pat Robertson does, so they don't get any press.

[Tux]

88. More like

The Evangelicals who want a blody theocracy and those who refuse to stand against them.

[Kerrytravelers]

4. I understand your argument and completly see what you are saying.

I think right now, people are just so angry about what the religious wrong are doing to this country, there becomes a habit of blurring the line between those who misuse religoin and the religion itself. I'm Ccatholic. I have run across some posts I thought were out of line. Some DUers I was able to engage and actually have a great conversation about it. Others just grew angrier, so I gave up.

I have the beleif that once this whole religious McCarthism is over, DUers will not blur the line because they won't be so blinded by anger.

But, I do agree. We need to remember three is a huge difference between the relgion itself and the way some choose to manipulate the religion.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

5. some do, some don't

welcome to the internet where anyone can post anything without recourse.

some probably feel justified in mocking the religion of others as they feel they are routinely slighted by the blatant intolerence and condemnation of the major religions. so the atheist insults the religious and the religious insults the atheists etc.... etc....

[enki23]

6. i'm more angry about people who mock non-religious rituals

the bastards. i can understand why they might mock religion, but mocking groundhog's day? that's going to goddamned far.

seriously people. keep your satire on the right side of the aisle. mock religion if you will. we can all understand that. just keep your mocking OUT of my secular life. the next person who mocks star trek conventions will feel the full breadth and force of my anger. and i am not alone.

[bemildred]

7. There is no indiscriminate hate for religion at DU.

We are free with criticism though.

[Rich Hunt]

none whatsoever?

A community of 10,000 or so and not one of them indiscriminately hates religion, or at least one or two of them?

I don't think so. That's not statistically likely.

Saying you 'have no respect for (x group)' is categorical hatred, not fair criticism.

[Toots]

77. I disagree completely

Having no respect for someone or something does not catagorically mean you hate them or it. Hatred and lack of respect are not necessarily the same thing. They most certainly can be but not always are. IMHO Hatred is something that is a very strong emotion. I can actually respect someone and hate them at the same time. I respect Bush* for his ability to win. I don't agree with his methods or his ideology but that he always ends up on top is pretty interesting and worthy of respect. You can respect your enemy is all I am saying and you can also have no respect for someone (eg. drunken bum) but not hate them.

[trotsky]

13. Thank you, bemildred.

Well said.

[bluestateguy]

8. I agree

MOst people here are not intolerant of religion, but a few are and they can sometimes be very loud. Many others do not condone such remarks, but they silently tolerate or ignore it. Indeed, I suspect that if someone here mocked the religious practices of Muslims or Hindus there would be a firestorm of outrage and accusations of being a bigot and a Freeper. Yet mocking Catholic, Protestant or Jewish practices is simply a substitute for what Freepers do to people who subscribe to non-western religions.

[candy]

15. That is one of the most insightful posts I've ever seen here. Thanks!

[calico1]

22. Very true. I am Catholic and have

never participated in any snake rituals. We are supposed to be the tolerant ones. The ones that don't generalize and throw everyone into one bucket. Oh well. :(

[lenidog]

31. I think you hit the nail right on the head with that post

[Zenlitened]

58. If and when Islam or Hinduism become the dominant political paragadigm...

... in the United States, I'm sure you'll see harsh criticism directed at those religions, too.

[Lars39]

10. Why don't we get a say in things Catholic?

Aren't we all Catholic now? Wasn't that the whole point of the media's Vatican approved pope extravaganza?
Fair's fair...the Pope/Vatican makes pronouncements and acts in political ways that effect non-Catholics.

[Rich Hunt]

19. no doubt

No doubt you hold some majoritarian beliefs that I do not hold but which do affect me.

I'm curious as to how the Pope (or lack of one) has affected your life today, apart from subjecting you to the emotional terrorism of round-the-clock cable news coverage.

Personally, I find the Pope story interesting. It's called capitalism. Lots of non-Catholics in the US really like that belief system.

[Lars39]

29. Women's health care, reproductive issues in particular.

The Pope/Vatican has life/death influence on these issues.
Also pronouncements on gays.

[Rich Hunt]

34. no they don't

If you live in the United States, they don't. The Pope has every right to say whatever he wants on such issues.

[Lars39]

47. Yes, they do.

Catholic run hospitals that merge with other teaching hospitals often do not allow abortion to be taught.
And the Pope's pronouncements against gays counts, too, don't ya think?

[Rich Hunt]

76. lots of people...

hold opinions that you or I might not like. That's fine with me - I believe in the First Amendment and all.

I still maintain that pronouncements against my ethnic / religious group have and continue to affect me, but that's between me and my stalkers.

;)

[Lars39]

85. What's the matter, couldn't deny that Pope/Vatican

effects non-Catholics here in the US, too?

[trotsky]

87. You're not listening.

Say you have a pregnant daughter who gets in an accident. She gets airlifted to the nearest hospital, which just happens to be a Catholic one. The prognosis is that if she had an abortion, her chances of survival would be greater.

At a Catholic hospital, you wouldn't even have the choice. They won't perform abortions, even if you're not Catholic.

[beam me up scottie]

95. Oh, leave him alone,

he's busy being abused by anti-religious fiends!!!

After all, we're nothing but "un-american" atheists .

[Lars39]

101. So anyone that disagrees with you is labelled a stalker?

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. Great point, Lars39! n/t

[forgethell]

86. Well, I'm not,

and I don't want to interfere with the Catholic Church anymore than I want them to interfere with my church.

If their religious views influence their political views, so be it. so did Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s.

[Touchdown]

12. "Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice"

Wanna talk mocking? What's good for the goose...

Yes, there are many denominations, and sects of Christianity that don't delve into that, but those aren't the ones framing the debate, or even being seen in the current political landscape. Where are they?

[loveable liberal]

14. Personally I dont care. But.....

Conversely, why to the 'church' religious get so bent out of shape. If one is comfortable with thier beliefs it really shouldnt matter. I conclude that those who get bent out of shape when religion is bashed really dont have a solid foundation of beliefs. Spirituality is very very personal. The true believers think God will sort it out.

I think the problem starts with those who claim religiousness and yet are blatant hypocrites when it comes to human rights. Being religious and being spiritual are two totally different things.

But thats just me....

[Devlzown]

17. Some are just venting.

Those who live in the Deep South like I do probably just get tired of being told to find Jesus -- either on bumperstickers, T-shirts, or in person. I know most Christians aren't obnoxious pricks, but it does get irritating when you're constantly bombarded by the slogans of capitalistic Christianity.

[seabeyond]

18. religion is man rule, why are people bothered

that the name of the lord by interpretation of man is becoming law over all of us.

religion is fuckin up

this from a very spritual and christ conscious person. why are those that are in religion not taking responsibility for their religion. we are literally using jesus's name to hate. we are using jesus's name to stone, whip even murder.

you ask why, people have a problem with hte religion of today, i ask why, as a religious person, do you not have issue.

for me to see people abused, abused in the name of the lord, for me to turn away from that is to turn away from what jesus asks us to do. i will not

[forgethell]

89. I missed that story.

who's been stoned and whipped by Christians? Leaving aside abusive parents, of course, who come in all religious flavors, even atheist. Murder? well there are nut jobs out there who say God told them to kill somebody. But stoning? where is this story to be found?

[me b zola]

118. Bravo!

As a Cathiolic & a spiritual person, I find that in many instantences churches are making a mockery of themselves and their religion. I am appalled that in the name of God people are spreading hate & oppression, these people need to be exposed & denounced.

Further more, since coming to DU I have spent a lot of time reading about the views & experiences of others here. As upset as I am about the daily inundation of religion into our culture as we race towards theocracy, how much more upsetting it must be for Atheists, who, BTW, are being treated quite unfaily by the press & the culture in general.

[BurtWorm]

20. It's not necessarily "hate."

For me it's lack of respect. I can feel my respect for virtually all things religious slipping away from me the older I get. I try not to express it disrespectfully, but of course I can't guarantee that if I express myself on matters dealing with religion, I may offend someone. (The readiness to take offense is one of those things I have less and less tolerance for.)

[WillowTree]

21. It's really quite simple.

Human nature leads us to hate and ridicule what we fear and we tend to fear what we do not understand. It's also easier, and often more fun, though only in the short-term, to mock than to be tolerant.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

43. There is where Reason comes in:

Reason is the search for understanding. Through it, we start to break down the systems that lead to the mockery and prejudices.

We could use more Reason.

[Zenlitened]

66. I fear religion precisely BECAUSE I understand it. - n/t

I criticize religion (though some insist criticism = mocking) precisely BECAUSE I oppose it. I'm not wiling to be "tolerant" of an institution that has declared me its enemy.

[Lindacooks]

24. Because the most outspoken 'religious' people are always

trying to push their views on the rest of us. They do NOT follow the words of Christ, they think what they believe and only what THEY believe is right and the rest of us are going to hell, and they want to control our minds and bodies; what we do, think, how we act, and the private decisions we make about our bodies and our lives.

When I see more 'religious' people helping the poor, fighting war and violence, protecting children, and spending money on public schools, health care for all, and protecting the environment, then I will have more respect for them. But the loudest 'religious' people in this country are the right wing fundies, and they do NOT deserve my respect.

[Rich Hunt]

32. I think

...that you see what you want to see. I live in a big northern city where I see plenty of those people you claim don't exist but yet illogically blame for not existing.

[htuttle]

25. Bashing organized religion is an old American tradition

Did you ever read Tom Paine's "Age of Reason"? He was not an atheist, but like many of the Founding Fathers, hated organized religion:
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm

I think any American would do well to read his essays, if not emulate Paine himself.

[Tux]

98. Paine

Was a Deist and criticized Christianity for it's beliefs and how things were done. It's normal for people to "bash" religion especially when it gets out of control.

[Mr Rabble]

26. could it possibly be

the complete and total lack of evidence that support the tenets of any organized religion?

Why not just believe in the tooth fairy?

I don't believe in any religion, because there is simply no factual evidence to support any of them. Period.

As soon as someone can prove any of this nonsense in a court of law I will stop thinking that people of faith are idiots.

Until such time...

[Rich Hunt]

28. so, let's follow your logic

the subject of this thread refers to 'indiscriminate hate'.

Tell me - do you justify 'indiscriminate hate'?

Atheism or agnosticism is supposed to be based on logic, you know. You wouldn't know it from reading some of these religion threads.

[beam me up scottie]

110. Show me this "indiscriminate hate"

I think you're confusing it with "free speech".
It's okay, I understand this is an emotional issue for you.

[Swamp Rat]

124. ditto

:popcorn:

[lenidog]

53. And I find your attitude towards people of faith as idiotic

as any Bible thumper telling me that I will burn in hell if I don't believe in what he preaches. Just because one is an atheist does not mean that evolution has made one any smarter or better than one that believes in God, The Godess or Gods. When its all said and done it just means you don't believe in higher being. No less, nothing more.

[RPM]

27. sic dogs on me, i will hate dogs; sic religion on me, i will hate religion

leave me the fuck alone and i wont hate you or your religion.

easy, peasy, nice and easy.

[beam me up scottie]

103. Nicely said!

nt

[Warpy]

30. Why is there so much paranoia from religion obsessed people on DU?

Honestly, this is flamebait, and I hope it sinks quickly.

[forgethell]

84. "I hope it sinks quickly"??

Fat chance.

[SoCalDem]

33. For the umpteenth time...

"Most" DUers are NOT bashing religion or faith, per se...What I (and lots of others) object to is the holier-than-thou approach of the FUNDAMENTALISTS OF ALL faiths... The "Golden Rule" is a better basis for living a life, and you do not necessarily have to sit in a particular place, for a specified amount of time each week, nor do you have to debate "dueling dogmas" to be a kind and giving person.

[mopaul]

39. glad you said that before the dogma deluge sets in

sometimes the umpteenth time is just not enough.

[MissB]

35. I suggest that the title of your thread is unnecessarily divisive

and will cause a knee-jerk self-defensive reaction.

In addition, your suggestion that some have "some growing up to do" is in poor taste.

"Some people say" and all that.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

38. I respect people who hold religious views.

That is their right and they are welcome to worship in the manner that pleases them and fits them. That said, I have no truck with those who use their religion as a cloak for their hatreds, thus perverting the message they say they ascribe to. Especially egregious is the cherry-picking of scripture between the old and new testaments, a synthesis that creates a comfort zone for prejudices. After all, didn't somebody one say that he brough a new covenant? I seem to remember that. It wasn't a covenant of hate, as I was taught it.

[Bouncy Ball]

40. ...

Let me tell you a secret--once people know your Achille's heel, they will exploit it. If you make it known that religion bashing bothers you, you'll find little smarmy comments here and there from people in threads and things you post all the time.

I'm not saying that's RIGHT, it's NOT. It's immature, juvenile. And this is certainly not restricted to DU or even the internet (everyone knows people who do that, right? As soon as they know what really bothers you, they find little passive-aggressive ways to do it a lot).

But it happens. Which is why I will NEVER reveal what annoys me most. It's like asking for it to be done to you non-stop.

Anyway, just saying.

:shrug:

[Oysteria]

41. Odd you should bring this up

I was wondering the same thing. Although it's not indiscriminate. I see a lot of vitriol directed toward many of the Christian faiths and Jews, but none toward Islam. Frankly, the Jewish and Christian faiths have come a long way over the centuries. They no longer put people to death for apostacy or breaking religious laws. They haven't for almost a couple hundred years now. So they have a few rituals - So what? I figure if you're going to bash anyone, let it be for something they've done that hurts another. Many in Islam still support and exercize barbaric practices which directly fly in the face of your basic human rights and I don't hear anyone making fun of them.

I'll probably get flamed now.

[Bouncy Ball]

45. ...

:popcorn:

Getting comfy here....

[Bridget Burke]

52. Islam has its hateful fundies....

And a majority of decent people. Just like most religions. (Are there fanatic Unitarians?)

Open your mind.

[Bouncy Ball]

65. Fanatic Unitarians! ROFL!

I go to a UU church. I'm not sure, but I don't think we have any fanatics.

UUers come from all different belief systems--some are agnostic, atheist, Wiccan, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim. Etc.

Some are "spiritually eclectic." So you have to be in possession of a certain amount of tolerance to go to a UU congregation.

It would be funny to see a fanatic UUer, though. What would that be like? :rofl:

I FANATICALLY BELIEVE IN THE WORTH AND DIGNITY OF EVERY HUMAN BEING!

LOL, hey I could be down with that. Your post made me giggle, thanks!

[Tux]

108. HEY!

I am a fundie UU. Don't make fun of us or we'll treat you with dignity and may defend your COnsitutional rights. I hate bashing but fundie Christians are messing up a major religion. Fundies are in Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, and Buddhist organizations and is only getting worse. They can't handle changes caused by modern societies. However, as a fundie UU, I do believe that people must see past the differences, grow skin and balls, and let others say as they want. If they disagree, so be it.

Also, as a fundie UU, may god/dess or soemthing bless if you believe in blessing or god/dess and have a great day.

[Bouncy Ball]

123. Hmm, I'm not sure how I feel about you possibly calling on a

possible god or goddess to possibly bless me. I'm going to have my UU congregation take a vote on it and I'll get back to you.

Wait, the Pagan Drum Circle is today. Ok I'll have them take a vote tomorrow.

Thanks,

Sister Peaceful Dagger of the UU Siblinghood for All Good

;-)

[Megami Kitsune]

71. the question goes beyond hatefulness...

The real issue is people relying upon an irrational basis for
their actions, whether good, bad or neutral.  

Religions, particularly through religious texts, provide all
kinds of rules, punishments, etc. none based on debate,
experience or contemplation, but solely on the 'word of god'. 
If someone believes the Bible, Koran, Vedas, etc. are divine
works then that scares me plenty.  Hate and willigness to
commit violence rest on a foundation laid by religion.  

How many atheists (which I am not) are suicide/abortion clinc
bombers?

Kitsune

[SheepyMcSheepster]

54. well just so you know

they are all the same to this DUer, they all claim to have a foot hold on the "truth" but no hard evidence to support their claims.

[Oysteria]

63. I understand your point

I too have trouble with trying to figure out who's lying. They can't all be the only path to heaven. Right? But I don't make fun of anyone who has made their decision or what rituals they practice to show their dedication.

[trotsky]

56. Don't know what version of DU you're reading..

but I've seen plenty of posts poking fun at Muslims, too. Mainly along the lines of the 72 virgins, burqas, etc.

Christianity gets picked on a lot more often because - surprise! - Christianity is the majority faith in the United States.

[Oysteria]

72. Just that I've seen

an overwhelming number of Christian bashers. I think that's a bad excuse for it though.

[trotsky]

82. The problem is defining "bashing."

In response to people saying that the bible is a book of fairy tales, I've seen some Christians have a screaming fit and others laugh it off. Who decides when something is "bashing"?

As noted elsewhere on this thread, when something other than Christianity becomes the "overwelming" majority in this country, then you will probably see the trend change.

[Oysteria]

91. Some people are bigger

than others and shrug it off. I'm only saying it isn't nice and many of the same people would not like it if someone made fun of what they believe in or what they don't. I think it simply detracts from what might otherwise be a valid and informative discussion. It's petty.

If one has a valid argument against one of another faith who is "forcing" their beliefs on them then there are ways to argue the point without getting petty.

Like the faith based initiative. I'm against it, but I wouldn't resort to making fun of how one prays to reinforce my argument.

[Zenlitened]

75. Let me know when Islam controls America's government...

... and I'll let the criticism fly. Believe me, Islam is no better or worse than Christianity -- both have way too many fundie nutcases calling the shots.

[Oysteria]

81. Ahh!

Love the pic of Carl Sagan.

[forgethell]

96. No you won't, because

the Muslims in control of a government know what to do about criticism of their religion. You wouldn't like it.

Besides, what, you're some kind of nationalist? It's OK for little brown people to labor under a repressive government, but not white Americans??

[pscot]

44. Religion hates non-believers

There are a billion muslims, 3/4 of whom see no problem with suicide bombing attacks on innocent civilians. In this country lunatic christians are even now attempting a coup against the legitimate government as set forth in the constitution. Belonging to a religion by definition involves choosing up sides against all persons who don't subscribe to your particular fantasy. You say that faith is neither silly or irrational when it is in fact both. Rationality implies a set of beliefs that can somehow be tested. Faith stipulates belief no matter how unlikely the prescept. I submit that the ones with some growing up to do are those who believe that their life is governed by some cosmic muffin or hairy thunderer who oversees their every thought and action and actually cares about the outcome. If you called on zeus or Odin to sanctify your assertions you would be dismissed as goofy, or at the very least, hopelessly retro.

[xpat]

46. Religion is a tool of oppression.

That is not to say that people's spiritual yearnings are tools of oppression. It simply means that these yearnings are systematically manipulated, and always have been, by organized religion to keep the power elite on top, and the rest of us down.

Nobody needs organized religion to express his spirituality. However, the power elite needs religion to crush you. This is why the Founding Fathers were so insistent about keeping religion out of government. Perhaps, they thought, by keeping it away from the levers of power, it could be tamed to serve people's spritual needs. Frankly, I doubt it.

[onager]

48. Yawn. Another day, another bleat about persecution...

...from the poor, downtrodden Xians. Who only make up about 90% of the American population, the last time I checked.

[Bouncy Ball]

50. ...

(pssst, even some Christians get tired of it, believe me...)

[Megami Kitsune]

49. "Should we mock Jews for cicumcision..."

"Should we mock Jews for cicumcision..."

Mock no, condemn yes.  If a person wishes to circumsize their
child for medical reasons, then I still oppose it on human
rights and consent grounds, but I acknowledge that at least
the person is attempting to give a rational justification for
such their actions.  Cutting off part of a child's genitals
because god told you too is as crazy as it sounds.

Kitsune

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Sorry...Tuesday is persecuted religion day...today is Monday

[Bouncy Ball]

59. So what do we do today?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Today is men complaining about abortion day

[Bouncy Ball]

69. AH!!!!

So I need to go find the abortion flamefests, eh?

Ok!

And making a note here: tomorrow (scribbling) is religious persecution day.....ok got it!

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. I don't hate religion, but I DO hate that

we have 24/7 news coverage of this pope crap when (as I just learned) ONLY 28% of U.S. Citizens are Catholic. :wtf: I guess it's ok to alienate the other 72%? It's sickening. Really. The ritual of selecting a pope really is over the top. They COULD just go into a room and vote...IMCPO.

And I have a HUGE problem with how the Catholic Church handled the child abuse scandal. Shame on them! If "I" were a Catholic, I would have left the Church and never looked back. The whole thing is disgusting, but that's just me. Child abuse is unforgivable....even for a Priest or the Catholic Church. They aren't exempt.

[trotsky]

74. Great marketing, though.

Look at all the free TV advertising time the Catholic Church is getting during this spectacle. You think it's in their best interests to wrap this up quickly? I don't think so!

[funflower]

Kill your TV

All I know about the pope crap is what I hear on NPR in the car. Aaahh.... it's so relaxing to not know things I don't care about.

[Lars39]

64. Here's one reason...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3498853&mesg_id=3498921

[beam me up scottie]

114. Saw that!

Loved it! Some people have some real "issues".
Did you catch the one about atheists being "un-american"?
Can you feel the love?

[mimitabby]

67. it all started when

the GOP's declared a religious war on us.
US being, the NON-christians..
it makes us a little sensitive.

[Bouncy Ball]

70. You aren't the only ones.

I consider myself a Christian, but have been told by more than one right wing fundie that I CAN'T be a Christian, because I vote for Democrats and I don't hate gays.

:eyes:

Some of us are right there wichya.

[LibertyorDeath]

73. All Religion is a crock of shit based on the fear of death

Is that a good example because that's my opinion
and I hold it near & dear.

[Bouncy Ball]

79. As a person with religious beliefs, may I say I fully support

your right to feel that way and to express your opinion.

I don't know if that's a good example of the kind of thing the OP is talking about, but I just wanted to make it clear there ARE people with religious beliefs who do not get upset when people say things like this.

[LibertyorDeath]

97. Thanks...Life is right here right now

I think Religions focus on an "afterlife" is just a control tool.

If the OP comes across "indiscriminate hate" they should hit Alert

[Bouncy Ball]

99. That's a very good point.

The alert button is there for a reason.

[Tux]

112. Terror Managment Theory

http://www.wordspy.com/words/terrormanagement.asp

In The Wake of 9/11 is a great book on this.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. Sorry folks but I think having a person on a cross as a figurehead

has not served you well. Christians weild a HUGE amount of political power in America and to pretend you are being crucified while your religion crucifies everyone who doesn't believe what you do is a bunch of crap.

[BurtWorm]

94. Just today I was walking to work and saw a decal of thorns on the back

of an SUV and I had an automatic gag reflex. And I was asking myself, why is so much of Christian symbolism so freakin' in your face? Why are Christians so prone to putting their symbols on everything they own? Whatever happened to the sin of pride?

[Bouncy Ball]

105. The marketing of Jesus.

I've been talking about it for years. Since when did it become ok to create products pushing Jesus and sell them for a profit? Since when did humility become a sin and pride become, well, great?

I think Jesus would vomit if he were to visit today and see all the hard marketing of him with very little emphasis, if at all, on what HE FREAKING SAID.

It's like in order to be a Christian in America nowdays, you have to CONSTANTLY REMIND PEOPLE OF IT ALL THE DAMN TIME!!!!!!

I was raised that you don't go around telling people what your religion is and you don't ask that of other people, either. I was told that was rude. Apparently now it's not only not rude, it's what you HAVE to do or something. :crazy:

Besides, let's face it: this is all about money. The more money they can make on the back of poor old Jesus the beter. He's a cash cow for them. Megachurches, books, videos, conferences. If most people realized how much money these people raked in.....whew...:puke:

[BurtWorm]

111. Well said, Bouncy Ball!

You nailed it, so to speak.

It's the marketing of Jesus that has ruined the religion for the rest of us.

[beam me up scottie]

116. Supply Side Jesus!

nt

[iconoclastNYC]

80. maybe

Because some people see it as mind control based on mythology? thats my guess. ignore it if you disagree.

[demnan]

83. I don't have indescriminate hatred for religion

I have a very descriminating hatred of religion and all its folies for very specific reasons. I won't go into them because frankly this is flame bait and you don't want a reasoned answer.

Let's just say this. A little girl goes to the Smithsonian and doesn't believe the scientific evidence (of dinsaurs) before her eyes. That's why I hate religion.

I have nothing against God if there is one.

[funflower]

107. Disbelievin' the dinos

So I take it your parents were fundies?

:)

There are many options available beyond "hating religion" or being a fundy ignoramus. I would guess that most people of faith believe in the existence of dinos many million of years before the advent of humans.

[DancingBear]

92. We react to what we experience

I was raised a Catholic, and in my time in the church I observed some of the most disgusting bigotry I have ever seen. I watched my particular Catholic brethren strut forth with a belief (approved and encouraged by their leaders) that they were truly chosen, and other religions were nothing more than bowls of mock turtle soup. I watched "good" Catholics rail on about n*&%ers and k%*$s 10 minutes(!) before leaving for Mass.

I saw it then - I see it now. I see people willing to fund a church whose spiritual leader literally winked and nodded as thousands of young boys found themselves scarred for life at the hands of those who they looked up to. I see those same bigots I knew as a youngster now passing the collection plate on Sunday mornings, still awash in hate and perceived moral superiority.

This is what I see, and what I know. I can understand your faith, but at the same time I can condemn it as well. How can I not?

[Malva Zebrina]

93. Here's my take

because someone criticizes any one religion, does not mean they are bashing any one person--I can't be clearer than that.

and god knows, every single religion has something about it that one can criticize. See?

Why , just look at all the criticism here on DU from other Christians that absolutely hate the "fundies" See?

That is criticizing the particular sect called fundamentalism, but it often goes personal and uses a broad brush. See? Is that bashing Chrisitianity?

So, say for instance, someone has the absolute nerve to criticize , say the Catholic church, does not mean they are criticizing any particular person. And god knows there is much to criticize about the Catholic church. That does NOT mean someone is "Catholic bashing" and to try and heap guilt upon someone for criticizing any particular piece of dogma, is a cheap shot. I understand that belonging to a particular religion is a rooted in cement part of someone's identity, but I think that no one seeks to bash any one person.

People are NOT required to overlook what they see as serious faults and do criticize a religion's faults according their perceptions.

Look for it to emerge ever the more especially if Ratzinger is voted the next Pope. Do those whose beliefs are so cemented to the self think that criticizing Ratzinger would be verboten, and that those who do are "bashing" a Pope and showing disrespect? Don't you agree that is sort of silly?

[Malva Zebrina]

100. Here's my take

because someone criticizes any one religion, does not mean they are bashing any one person--I can't be clearer than that.

and god knows, every single religion has something about it that one can criticize. See?

Why , just look at all the criticism here on DU from other Christians that absolutely hate the "fundies" See?

That is criticizing the particular sect called fundamentalism, but it often goes personal and uses a broad brush. See? Is that bashing Chrisitianity?

So, say for instance, someone has the absolute nerve to criticize , say the Catholic church, does not mean they are criticizing any particular person. And god knows there is much to criticize about the Catholic church. That does NOT mean someone is "Catholic bashing" and to try and heap guilt upon someone for criticizing any particular piece of dogma, is a cheap shot. I understand that belonging to a particular religion is a rooted in cement part of someone's identity, but I think that no one seeks to bash any one person.

People are NOT required to overlook what they see as serious faults and do criticize a religion's faults according their perceptions.

Look for it to emerge ever the more especially if Ratzinger is voted the next Pope. Do those whose beliefs are so cemented to the self think that criticizing Ratzinger would be or should be verboten, and that those who do are "bashing" a Pope are showing disrespect for another person's religion? Don't you agree that is sort of silly?

If the religion is unable to handle criticism, it does seem to me that it seems a rather weak religion.

[Malva Zebrina]

102. Here's my take

because someone criticizes any one religion, does not mean they are bashing any one person--I can't be clearer than that.

and god knows, every single religion has something about it that one can criticize. See?

Why , just look at all the criticism here on DU from other Christians that absolutely hate the "fundies" See?

That is criticizing the particular sect called fundamentalism, but it often goes personal and uses a broad brush. See? Is that bashing Chrisitianity?

So, say for instance, someone has the absolute nerve to criticize , say the Catholic church, does not mean they are criticizing any particular person. And god knows there is much to criticize about the Catholic church. That does NOT mean someone is "Catholic bashing" and to try and heap guilt upon someone for criticizing any particular piece of dogma, is a cheap shot. I understand that belonging to a particular religion is a rooted in cement part of someone's identity, but I think that no one seeks to bash any one person.

People are NOT required to overlook what they see as serious faults and do criticize a religion's faults according their perceptions.

Look for it to emerge ever the more especially if Ratzinger is voted the next Pope. Do those whose beliefs are so cemented to the self think that criticizing Ratzinger would be or should be verboten, and that those who do are "bashing" a Pope are showing disrespect for another person's religion? Don't you agree that is sort of silly?

If the religion is unable to handle criticism, it does seem to me that it seems a rather weak religion.

[onenote]

104. as the du'er who started this thread

First, I want to thank everyone who posted...whether you accepted the premise of my question or challenged it, I was interested in seeing your viewpoint.

Second, in hindsight, after seeing everyone's posts, I regret using the term "indiscriminate hate". Hate is far too loaded a term and I should've steered clear. Better I should have used disrespect. And its not really that its indiscriminate, as much as its 'unthinking'.

Finally, as I made clear, I have am in no way defending those who use their religion or their standing as religious leaders to preach exclusion or hate. The position taken by many religious leaders on gay rights, on war, on the death penalty, on religious freedom (at least when its a religion other than theirs) is vile.

The point I was trying to make, albeit inartfully, is that I can't fathom how someone can broadly label religion as hocus-pocus or something only 'idiots' would adhere to, unless they also "unthinkingly" think that Rev. King or Father Berrigan or the many current religious leaders who are working against the war and for social justice, or the priests that counsel gay and transgendered individuals etc etc are just snake oil salesmen.

onenote

[LdyGuique]

106. I think most of the overreaction comes from the

perception that the RW Christians are attempting to install a theocracy. Month by month the rhetoric ratchets up another notch as the fundies want to abandon the Constitution, impose their form of religion into government, impeach conservative Judges who still aren't fundie-oriented. It makes for difficult times.

Younger people tend to be more passionate and blind to nuances or shades of gray. It's we-older ones who recognize that we have a lot in common, no matter where our spiritual leanings lie.

Frankly, the fundies are tearing this country apart as the political debate grows more twisted and angry.

[UdoKier]

109. Oh, so THIS must be the thread that provoked the "religious crybabies"

post.

This post is just as divisive and bigoted as that one. Relatively few of us are even remotely interested in the pope-election process.

I understand your point, but why do you go reading those threads anyway? I avoid those pope selection threads. What could they possibly do to illuminate my life? The cardinals will pick a new pope, his word will be infallible according to the church. End of story. What's to discuss?

[Village Idiot]

115. I don't see it as indescriminate...

but there are some of us who are a little old for fairy tales...

[Coexist]

117. there isn't, just differing opinions

[Swamp Rat]

119. .

:popcorn:

[Junkdrawer]

120. "so much indiscriminate hate for religion on DU" - flamebait...n/t

[leftofthedial]

121. because it has earned, and continues to earn it.

[spanone]

122. Because there used to be separation between church & state.

[Moderator]

125. Locking....

This is inflammatory.


DU Moderator