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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 10:09 AM
Original message
Criticism of Dean coming from Vermont is NOT from Democrats
It's coming from Greens, Vermont's Progressive Party (NOT Progressive Democrats, mind you), Socialists and Communists. When you read articles posted on here that says "Vermont liberals" or "Vermont Progressives" are critical of Dean, you need to keep in mind that the articles are NOT written by liberal Democrats or progressive Democrats. They are coming from a pretty radically left political standpoint AND parties that are in competition with the Democratic Party, and also quite damaging to the Democratic Party.

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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's coming from some liberals, imo.
And I say that as a financial supporter of Dean.

I've read numerous articles about him that talked about how Democrats viewed him as way too conservative, and the criticism might even be valid on some points. The thing is, state budgets and policies aren't the same thing as federal budgets and policies. I might be against raising the minimum wage at a state level, but for it on a national level. If I was against it on the state level, it's because it might drive jobs to New Hampshire, whereas on the federal level, that wouldn't happen.

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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. So Dean caved to conservatives in Vt.
yet liberals and progressives here and elsewhere have flocked to him in droves. (scratches head, furrows brow) Do voters examine candidates' records anymore?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. They are damaging to everybody.....especially themselves!
Thanks for posting this...there's a lot of trash going around about all our candidates and it's behooves us to know the sources.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Hey, do you remember that big-ass Green/Nader
sign in the background of Gov. Dean when he was giving his Grand Anouncement Speech in Vermont? Are these the same scabs?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I had forgotten about that! That's the impression it made!
Who knows the source of that?
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Gotta hand it to the GreenOP Party...
Edited on Wed Sep-17-03 12:45 PM by Patriot_Spear
They are a real pack of asshats. However, they've shot their wad and the majority of them do want anymore Bush* blood on their hands; none remain fooled except for the sycophants who worship at the alter of Nader.

RIP GreenOP Party of America.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Yes, they are
Everything I've seen on here that's been critical of Dean can be traced back to members of parties who compete with Democrats here. The main one is the Progressive Party, which is NOT Democrats. They are further left than the Green Party and many self described Socialists are in that party. These are NOT Democrats.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting
It's coming from Greens, Vermont's Progressive Party (NOT Progressive Democrats, mind you), Socialists and Communists.

Sounds like a group that would feel right at home here at DU. Hmmmmm...
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. They don't consider themselves Democrats
In fact, they are constantly trying to sabotage Democrats in Vermont. There are some who are decent, but many are very radical.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yes it is...It was mostly Liberal Democrats Dean had problems with
Edited on Wed Sep-17-03 12:23 PM by Nicholas_J
He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee...

To the anger of more liberal members of his own party, he insisted that the tax increases be rolled back on schedule and then went on to work for additional tax cuts later in his tenure...

Throughout, he held a tight rein on state spending, repeatedly clashing with the Democrats who controlled the Legislature for most of his years as governor...

"Certainly the Democratic caucus was never 100 percent behind him and where there were differences, it was around how progressive or how moderate he was," Chard said.

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp


More problem with Dean opposing Democrats. THIS time a bill to regulate prescription Drug Costs in Vermont:

Committee threatens to regulate drug prices

Dean said he would not support the price controls unless six or seven other states joined in the regulatory effort as well. That way, he said, the legal costs of defending the bill against a likely constitutional challenge would at least be spread around the region.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/leg2000/regdrug.html


I believe what the Senate Appropriations Committee presented to you was a budget that listens to what Vermonters have asked us to do,” committee Chairwoman Susan Bartlett, D-Lamoille, said just before the vote.

“I believe that it is responsible of government, when times get difficult, to protect our most needy and our most vulnerable. ... I think turning our backs on Vermonters is what’s fiscally irresponsible.”

Even the governor’s closest allies in the Senate ignored him. Sen. Nancy Chard, D-Windham, recommended restoring $440,000 to one of the pharmaceutical assistance programs and the Senate voted 22-7 to go along with her.

“I’ve become convinced that we have a philosophical difference between the governor, the Republican House and this Senate,” said Senate President Pro Tempore Peter Shumlin, D-Windham.

“The governor and the Republican House want to balance this budget on the backs of our most vulnerable Vermonters. The Senate wants to balance this budget on the backs of the pharmaceutical companies who are charging too much for drugs.”

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html




The Progressives, with support of a couple dozen Democrats and one Republican, proposed two new income tax surcharges. Taxes would go up 12.5 percent on taxable income between $43,000 and $158,000. On taxable income above $158,000, taxes would be increased 25 percent...

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.




http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html


THIS is just a newpaper editorial about Dean, from Burlington Free Press:

Although sometimes loose with the truth, Dean's attack strategy seems to have paid off. He has put his opponents on the defensive and has drawn considerable attention from political commentators and Democratic contributors. Polls show him neck and neck with Kerry in the critical New Hampshire primary and closing in on the favored Gephardt in the Iowa caucuses.

As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.


http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm

not, though. Throughout his governorship, Dean found himself repeatedly trying to tug the Democratic party toward the center. The battles took place especially over budgetary, taxation, and environmental issues. They were so fierce that we remember one state representative from a liberal town telling us that Dean wouldn't even dare to show his face there. It was an article of faith among many Vermont Democrats that Dean was really a Republican in disguise. Dean, for his part, famously characterized one budget proposal from the Democratic Senate as being from "La-La Land," a remark he probably regrets now but which accurately reflected his frustrations then.

http://www.rherald.com/news/2003/0807/Editorial/e02.html


Former State Sen. Cheryl Rivers (D-Windsor) just laughed when we ran that one by her. She battled nose-to-nose with Republican, er, sorry, Democratic Gov. Howard Dean through the 1990s. Rivers was a liberal and proud of it. Dean was a penny-pinching, Rocke-feller Republican masquerading as a Democrat.

The mere mention of Sen. Rivers' name during Dean's weekly press conferences would cause the governor to clench his hands, tighten his neck and stiffen his spine. That was Dean 1, the fiscal conservative.

http://www.geegaw.com/stories/sleepless_in_iowa_and_seattle.shtml


At one point, he wrote to the leader of the Vermont Senate Democrats, Dick McCormack, apologizing for telling Senate liberals they ought to learn from what happened in Eastern Europe.

"I and many others interpreted that as calling us communists," says McCormack, chuckling about it now. McCormack says Dean wrote many apologies to him over the years.

Dean also atoned for saying publicly that then-Vermont Sen. Cheryl Rivers shouldn't be re-elected, two weeks before the 1994 election. He clashed with the fellow Democrat on health care and budget issues.

"He flew off the handle," says Rivers, who won re-election anyway and shrugs off his criticisms now.


http://www.primarymonitor.com/blog/index.php

BURLINGTON, Vt. - The new governor faced a roomful of fellow Democrats in 1992, liberal warriors eager after two years of Republican rule to right every perceived wrong in Vermont. But Howard Dean issued no call to arms.

All of your progressive ideas, Dean told his party caucus, won't amount to anything if Vermonters don't trust you with their money - and they don't. We're seen as tax-happy liberals who spend money unwisely.

Dean's words foreshadowed years of acrimonious battles with his party's formidable liberal wing, which controlled the legislature. From 1991 to 2002, Dean issued more vetoes than any previous governor. But he slowly bent Democrats to his will. When he left office in 2002, Vermont had a fairly balanced budget, while states across the nation bled fiscal red ink.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/politics2003/0803_deanrecord_2003.shtml



In fact, many of Vermont's liberal Democrats and Progressives dislike Dean, whom they paint as practically a closet Republican (Clavelle is a notable exception, though he describes himself as part of the "pragmatic" wing of his party). In 2000, when Dean ran for his fifth term as governor of Vermont, Progressives ran a candidate against Dean--knowing full well that they might hand the Vermont governorship to a right-wing Republican. This was after Dean had signed Vermont's landmark civil unions bill--which grants same-sex couples access to the same rights and protections enjoyed by married couples--and he was facing a heated "Take Back Vermont" Republican challenge. The Progressive candidate wound up taking almost 10 percent of the vote, and Dean squeaked back into office.

http://www.thestranger.com/2003-05-15/feature-2.html


This was not the same Dean who governed Vermont for 11 years. Known as a pro-business, fiscal conservative, Dean established a reputation as a non-ideological moderate who waged some of his toughest legislative battles with liberal Democrats on such issues as health care and welfare reform.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/dean/edit1.htm


FINALLY, LAST BUT NOT LEAST...


Dean set out to balance the budget with spending cuts, vetoing some spending on social services for the elderly. He angered liberal legislators with a record number of vetoes in 11 years as governor. When he left office, the budget was in balance.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-insdean31083103aug31,0,2032875.column


There are lots of articles in which Vermont Democrats criticize Dean. Dean received little criticism from Vermont Republicans, who greatly favored his fiscl policies. The ONLY real fallout that campe for Dean in Vermont with Republicans was over Civil Unions, and that sprked more problems for Republicans who splintered into pro and anti Dean factions.

Problem with this post is that it is simply FILLED with your opinions, but your posts do not contain facts to back up your opinion.

And from these articles, there is indication that there would be far fewer Vermont Progressives, if it had not been for Howard Deans Conservatism.

The "Rivers" who blames Dean for Democratic Party losses to the Progresive Party is Cheryl Rivers, leader of thwe Liberal Wing of the democratic party.

The articles indicate that most of Deans battles were with the liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

From this post, all that can be inferred is that ther is ONE Vermont Democrat who did not oppose Dean...You.

You even must uses those old Joe McCarthy slurs about leftists, Socialists,Commies, in order to attack those who opposed Dean. Well these parties constitutef a VERY SMALL percentage of the Vermont electorate, and Dean nearly lost in 2000, because he drove thousands of liberal democrats into the Progressive Party.

Well as Democrats, we should be more worried about a candidate who got a great deal of support from Republicans" and conservative elements, and who was opposed by Progressives, Socialists, Greens and other liberal parties, than one who was opposed by Republicans, and supported by progressive and left leaning parties.

WE are looking for a liberal candidate, not a conservative one.

WE have one of those in the White House already. We do not need to replace a Republican ultra-conservative, with another one. Democrat in name only.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Most of the actual Democrats you keep claiming hate Dean
have endorsed him for president. Most of the crap you post is coming from NON-Democrats.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Is this your homepage, Nicholas_J?
Edited on Wed Sep-17-03 04:19 PM by w4rma
http://soli.inav.net/~njohnson/

If so, that's pretty cool. But, why is it that you slam Dean for things that other upper tier Democratic presidential nominees have an equal or greater history of doing?
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Uh,
"It's coming from Greens, Vermont's Progressive Party (NOT Progressive Democrats, mind you), Socialists and Communists..."


I would rather have a Dem candidate who receives support from progressives of any stripe, Greens, socialists and "commies" than conservatives and republicans.

So this is supposed to be an endoresement of Dean? Jesus Christ. Articles listed in other posts seem to indicate that most of the opposition to Dean DID come from progressive Dems.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Disagreements on some things, sure
But most of Vermont's Democrats have endorsed Dean for president. The bulk of the negative stuff I've read is NOT coming from liberal Democrats. It's coming from the radical left who are NOT Democrats. As a moderate swing voter, I can't stand what those people do in my state. They have done far more harm than good. Vermont's politicians (both Democrats and Republicans) are good on the environment for the most part. The fringe left here are just as bad as the fringe right in the nation. I have no use for either of them. Their views aren't mainstream yet they are hell bent on forcing them down the throats of mainstream people. Dean is a damn good politicians and a damn good person. These idiots in my state who ARE radical fools seem determined to re-elect Bush. I guess it's your choice if you want to buy into the crap they fling around, but hopefully people here are wise enough to look at other sources from Vermont and form a fair opinion. Listening to these jokers is the equivalent to listening to Rush Limbaugh. They're all poured from the same radical mold, they just come from opposite sides of the political fence.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. He can forget my vote
After reading that... He is not someone I will support.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Didn't I read you write this same exact thing
on another dean thread? So which thing did you just read that changed your mind about how you will vote? Or is this just a slam? Or is it a parody on the bashes (ala - wow that was so effective that it changed my mind)?
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Why? Because Vermont radicals don't like him?
Unless you have spent time here in Vermont you have no idea of what the political makeup is. Anytime you read something from "Vermont Progressives" or "Vermont Liberals" you need to keep in mind that up in this neck of the woods, those folks are NOT even Democrats. They are third party people, many of who are very, very radical and further left than Limbaugh is right. Some of them are like Bernie Sanders, but there are a lot more who are much further left than he is. Bernie is actually a pretty moderate Vermont Progressive. Some of these folks would look Kucinich look like a centrist. I'm not kidding.
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Southsideirish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Like that "ying-yang" waving the sign at the Dean "kick-off" speech?
His good friends at freeperville still drag that little bit of video out when they feel like embarressing Dean.
Thanks, "yang", for giving us our fine pResident.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. This defeats the argument that Dean is leftist.
Edited on Wed Sep-17-03 04:24 PM by Cascadian
I support him not because I am a centrist but I believe he is the most refreshing, intelligent, and viable candidate out there that can appeal to all voters. The people that call him a leftist are either a bunch of ditto heads and DLC Republican lites.

If Dean is a leftist, than I am a Marxist!


John
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm tired of criticism. If we were running satan against
dimwit, lucifer would get my vote. The guys that are running now? But for Leiberman, I could vote for any of them and feel good. Well,
Edwards and I are the same age. I don't know about that ... JUST KIDDING!!!!! :)

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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. French press comments are full of praise about Dean's success.
They say he resorbed the Vermont debt. But, for the american political feeling, he is perceived as "leftist"
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