"Children of the future Age

[H2O Man]

Reading this indignant page,
Know that in a former time
Love! sweet Love! was thought a crime."

-- William Blake

[H2O Man]

1. Thought Crimes: Part Two

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you
And though they are with you
yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you,
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth ....
Let your bending in the archer's hand
be for gladness.

-- Kahlil Gibran


(These two poems were A.S. Neill's favorites.)

[Just Me]

2. Reflects how I view my son,...

,...my role is to love and guide and teach him to own himself. Turns out, he has been as much a teacher to me, as I to him.

I truly enjoyed Kahlil Gibran's writings, which touched me, allowing a sense of refreshing wholeness. I should pull out some of his work and re-invoke his wisdom.

[G_j]

3. my mother had read this

I found out one day when I was older. She mentioned it had influenced the way she brought us up.
very fortunate

[H2O Man]

4. Yes, definitely

Kahlil Gibran's writings seem even more refreshing today than in the pre-neocon days. I think that being a good parent (aunt, uncle, grandparent, teacher, neighbor) is the single most important job that any of us has. On a few of the threads since the infamous handcuff scene, a number of DUers have taken some offense to the ideas a minority of us were expressing -- about not hitting children, about trying to reach for a better world where violence isn't necessary -- which makes me think that the correct message wasn't getting through. None of us are perfect parents. None of us. The idea is to talk about some of the difficulties we face: some of them are things that arise in the community; some in school; some in our homes; and some inside of us. That's just part of real life.

You bring a gentle power to the discussion. I admire that, very much.

[Just Me]

5. Oh, thank you. I have been aware of becoming rough-edged,...

,...and drawn into bitterness, being cantankerous, from time to time. I intend to always maintain the seed of centeredness and wholeness I was able to reveal in myself because it is the only path to inner peace I have ever found. However, *LOL*, I know I'll be distracted,...'cause I am human.

The hyper-criticism is disappointing. As you stated, none of us are perfect. All of us have our problems and struggles; experience confusion and unmet expectations. Those imperfections and struggles are common to human existence. You'd think such things would pull us together; but, instead, we are using others' struggles to push us further apart. Where is the empathy, the willingness to stand in the shoes of another struggling or suffering human being?

:shrug:

[G_j]

6. in a world of hardening hearts

I think it is crucial that we fight against the trend. No child ever was handcuffed in all the years I was in school. Things have changed? Then let us figure out the how and why.
Our "government" approaches "probelms" with force and power/over.
Our prisons our full, we put people to death both at home and abroad.
It is a road that can only lead to further violence and suffering.

someone said that the three Rs have now become Revenge, Retribution and Retaliation.

we must resist

[tom_paine]

8. And yet, can Nazis be resisted with reason, peace and love?

If I recall, the Nazis were finally stopped by being whipped by Hard Hearts that carried the Kernel of Freedom remembered within.

But you need a Hard Heart to stop a Monster, be it Nazi or Bushevik.

Just my opinion.

[G_j]

9. how many are capable

of not becoming Nazis themselves is my question.

[tom_paine]

10. I don't know. It certainly is a danger, g_j.

But we are rapidly approaching a time where we have no other choice.

[G_j]

12. see, I'm not convinced you need a hard heart

to fight a monster, though maybe it may feel easier that way.
If a person gives up their humanity/compassion etc. perhaps the battle is lost before it is over.

I know Tolkien is a fantasy writer but he did experience great horror first hand in WW1.
His characters (Gandalf and others) did not seem to have hardened hearts as they fought the 'monsters'.
I think for Tolkien this was more than a simple fairy tale.
This said, I tend to believe that Tolkien's good vs. evil paradigm is antiquated.
For myself, I always turn to MLK to shed light on this issue.

[H2O Man]

11. Hopefully

we can all recognize that there is a difference in the way should treat {a} our children, and {b} the Nazis who pose an immediate threat to our children. We do not compromise our ability to protect society from the "Nazi" threat by treating children with dignity and respect. Hence, the question "And yet, can Nazis be resisted with reason, peace and love?" might better be posed in association with questions regarding violence against children.

[G_j]

13. yes

I sort of forgot we were talking about children here.

That is different then talking about how Hitler was stopped etc.
No child is a "monster" not in my book anyway..

[tom_paine]

7. There is no one I have more pity for than the poor bastards

who will be alive in Imperiasl Amerika in 2100, when all trace and vestige of Old America is gone, and all of us who were born free citizens are dead.

May God have mercy on those who will be living in that shattered, impoverished, brutal Third-World Nation then.

[H2O Man]

14. I have read with great interest

a number of posts on a few other threads which fall into two general groups: {1} the "hot seat" folks who say that they spank their kids without hitting them, in the "greater love hath no parent" mold, and who are not happy to see posts on non-violence and children; and {2} the folks who are confident that issues about violence and children have absolutely nothing to do with the political and social realities of the day, and wish that those who wish to discuss the issue further would form a baby-sitting forum.

I had hoped the quote from A.S. Neill in the Summerhill thread would have helped people from both groups recognize that it is an important topic, connected to most if not all of the political & social issues that should be important to democrats today. Further, the discussion isn't intended to point fingers or to inflict a guilt trip on anyone. Rather, it should simply be seen as an opportunity to talk about issues that we have the ability to evaluate and make decisions on in our everyday lives.

Democracy is about children. It's about children having enough food; having access to medical care; having the opportunity to get a great education in the public school system -- which is threatened by the neocon/bush administration; have the right to be enriched by learning about science and about evolution, and not impoverished by Pat Robertson's nonsense; having the right to be safe; and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If democracy doesn't include children, what good is it?

[H2O Man]

15. Erich Fromm on Summerhill:

In his introduction to the book Sumerhill, Erich Fromm voices his concerns about the use of force in education. Though the essay was authored 45 years ago, it is of value today.

Fromm was not speaking of spanking, paddling, or handcuffing children. He was talking about the type of social authority used to compel children to learn.

As most DUers are hopefully aware, during the 18th and 19th century, the progressive thinkers in Europe and America examined the concepts of freedom, democracy, and self-determination .... including in education. Fromm was concerned that competition from the Soviet Union, which did not promote self-determination in education in any sense of the word, was forcing the European and American schools towards a more authoritarian methodology.

DUers can debate in all sincerity if having police officers handcuff a 5-year old girl at least hints of an authoritarian mentality in the school system. Part of that discussion might include considering what Fromm called anonymous authority and overt authority. In anonymous authority, people (including children in school) are given the "I think you'll like this, because everyone does" approach, which promotes conformity. The overt authority says, "Do it or else!" As a parent and an American, I am concerned that the Cheney administration has moved us into the worst of both camps.

I will now quote four paragraphs from Fromm:

"And in the sphere of consumption (in which the individual allegedly expresses his free choice) he is likewise managed and manipulated. Whether it be consumption of food, clothing, liquor, cigarettes, movies or television programs, a powerful suggestion apparatus is at work with two purposes: first, to constantly increase the individual's appetite for new commodities; and secondly, to direct these appetites into the channels most profitable for industry. Man is transformed into the consumer, the eternal suckling, whose one wish is to consume more and more 'better' things.

"Our economic system must create men who fit its needs; men who coperate smoothly; men who want to consume more and more. Our system must create men whose tastes are standardized, men who can be easily influenced, men whose needs can be anticipated. Our system needs men who feelfree and independent but who are nevertheless willing to do what is expected of them, men who will fit into the social machine without friction, who can be guided without force, who can be lead without leaders, and who can be directed without any aim except the one to 'make good,' It is not that authority has disappeared, nor even that it has lost in strength, but that it ha been transformed from the overt authority of force to the anonymous authority of persuasion and suggestion. In other words, in order to be adeptable, modern man is obligated to nourish the illusion that everything is done with his consent, even though such consent be extracted from him by subtle manipulation. His consent isobtained, as it were, behind his back, or behind hid consciousness. ....

"Neill maintains a firm faith 'in the goodness of the child.' He believes the average child is not born a cripple, a coward, or a soulless automaton, but has full potentialities to love life and to be interested in life. ....

"Guilt feelings primarily have the function of binding the child to authority. Guilt feelings are an impediment to independence; they start a cycle which oscillates constantly between rebellion, repentance, submission, and new rebellion. Guilt, as it is felt by most people in our society, is not primarly a reaction to the voice of conscience, but essentially an awareness of disobedience against authority and fear of reprisal. It does not matte whether such punishment is physical or a withdrawal of love, or whether one is simply made to feel an outsider. All such guilt feelings create fear; and fear breeds hostility and hypocrisy."