Dean: Said Clark was a republican until 25 days ago...

[wyldwolf]

... on Face The Nation.

That is where the poster earlier today got his/her "information" from/

Gives Clark's service in the military as evidenc, as well as his votes for Nixon and Reagan and the tape where Clark spoke nicely of certain republicans.

Is Clark's vote for Clinton (2X) and Gore a non-issue?

Is his campaigning for Dems in 2002, including Max Cleland, of no effect?

So far, the only charge that is trying to stick - the speech at the fundraiser - is the same one Rove is spreading.

Dean also denied asking Clark to join his team. Would be kind of hard to admit that after calling Clark a republican.

[Closer]

1. DEAN NAILED IT TODAY!!

GOD I love this man!

[wyldwolf]

3. He sure did!

Repeated rightwing talking points like a pro! GOD you love this man!

[liberalnurse]

6. Dean sure was on fire today!

He also had poise and presentation! Much, much better!

He was very balanced and articulate with his responses and total message.

[Closer]

14. Yes, Liberal Nurse

He did have so much poise. And he was dressed so sharply! He was just amazing today, even though Schieffer (the whore he is) went after him hard, doing all he could to make it a negative interview.

I am SOOOOOO glad Dean is going after Clark. What a smart move on the campaign's part.

You can tell that Dean is pissed about the information he's found out about Clark. I don't blame him.

Dean is the real deal!!!

[diplomats]

30. And Karl Rove is laughing his ass off right now

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

100. Who gives a fuck what Rove is doing right now!

Must every move be made with "I wonder what Rove would do with this" or "How happy does this make Rove" in the forefront of one's mind?
Is this Rove you speak of some omniscient being? Some candidates are not afraid of this Rove you speak of. They're more interested in calling a spade a spade than playing some political version of Twister. Fuck Karl Rove.

[diplomats]

112. Um, this whole Clark-is-a-Repuke story

was on Drudge originally. He hardly has the best interests of the Dems in mind. Yes, I do care when our Dem candidates start doing carrying Rove's water for him. Rove's current goal is to bring down Clark. Why else would Rush Limbaugh be offering Dean advice on how to attack Clark?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

149. Point me to the Drudge link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=423043&mesg_id=423043

[Clark Can WIN]

172. Oh give me an effin break, - - really.

I was a defender of Deans until today. I was an admirer of Deans until today. I would have volunteered for his campaign if he got the nod, until today.

I understand he has good reasons to be afraid of Wesley Clark, but did he have to sink to holy Joe Liebermans level? It is too early for Dean to look this desperate.

"You can tell that Dean is pissed about the information he's found out about Clark. I don't blame him. Dean is the real deal!!! "

How very simple. I assume when "he found" this information he also "found" the FACT that Wes also Voted for CLINTON AND GORE.

Dean sounded like a spoiled little diva who wasn't getting all the attention in the room anymore. I'm sad now for the time I have wasted on him.

[Pepperbelly]

40. Dean lost ..

my respect today but I am glad that you enjoyed.

[ronzo]

121. Dean went down a peg with me, too.

Why is he getting desperate enough to pull this BS this early? And God help John Edwards should he pick up the momentum I expect. In my observation, Howard has never been an especially gracious individual, but I would expect this kind of crap from the likes of lieberman.

[virtualobserver]

148. For me, "Friends" of Wolfowitz and Feith and Rumsfeld....

are the ones who "went down a peg with me"

[59millionmorons]

37. Yes he did

He nailed my support for Clark and I will not vote for Dean if he wins the nomination. Dean says Clark switched parties. This coming from a guy who has flipped numerous times in his position. I guess thats why they call him flip flop Dean.

[madaboutharry]

88. Who will you vote for?

Dean got himself dirty this morning, but I think all democrats need to adopt the "I will vote for a lamp shade" over Bush philosophy. As much as that will pain me.

[diplomats]

99. I will vote for Dean if he's the nominee

even if I'm not happy with his current tactics. Getting rid of Bush is prioriry No. 1.

[IndianaGreen]

174. Will you vote for a Republican just because his name is not Bush?

That's what we are being asked to do with Clark!

Do you oppose Bush the man, or do you oppose Bush's policies? Clark will replace Bush, but he won't replace Bush's policies on PNAC, the war, PATRIOT Act, etc.

Clark won't even do away with discrimination against gays in the armed forces! His opposition to "don't ask, don't tell" consists of letting the Chiefs set their own policy, which as everyone knows, is to bar gays from serving.

[wndycty]

2. Dean is making a HUGE mistake. . .

. . .there are a ton of Clark supporters who have Dean as their #2. By attacking Clark, he risks alienating these voters if Clark were to drop out. I like Dean, but if he goes negative against Clark I am going to have a harder time supporting him is Clark drops out.

[Pepperbelly]

5. I wouldn't support him now against ...

Lieberman. He has shown his true colors and they are less than pleasing.

[diplomats]

21. And Clark has never attacked any of the other Dems

I thought Dean was smarter than that. He should just explain why he thinks he's the best candidate to beat Bush rather than using RNC talking points. A few days ago when Lieberman said this about Clark I said he was desperate. I won't say that about Dean, but I am disappointed in him.

[w13rd0]

25. Dean is connected to his campaign...

...he knows what is going on "down here". Clark might not be gunning, but his supporters sure as hell are. Dean is responsive to the concerns of his supporters.

[Pepperbelly]

45. until today ...

I have never said a word against Dean. Now, that changes.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

97. Disappointing

that you are taking such an emotional stance now against Dean. Get used to it, cuz the Deanies have gotten used to the blows from all the candidates and their supporters. It's called politics, it's not personal.

FYI I've never said anything against Clark, and would be disappointed to see his supporters change their tune just because the fire has been turned on under their candidate's feet. Although I'm not entirely pleased with Dean's statements, he is talking about the facts about Clark. He did vote Repuke, he did praise * and his evil staff only 2 years ago. I think that's open for some thoughtful discussion, and Clark certainly has some questions to answer.

[Code_Name_D]

117. Bull shit

You have been raling against Dean suporters for two weeks now. Just about any thing that looks negitive against Clark has got to be an attack from the Dean suporters.

Your biase for Clark is infamause.

[wyldwolf]

44. Right! I had not thought of that! Clark has not gone negative at all...

...and some of the other dems sure have enough material for him to do so. Classy. One of the benefits of not being a career politician.

[blm]

43. Glad you noticed...

Some of us have been on to him for a long time.

He's in this for HIMSELF.

He fights, alright...FOR HIMSELF.

He's passionate, alright...FOR HIMSELF.

How on earth a longtime compromising centrist suddenly converts to fighting populist with so little examination of his motives by his supporters and the media is beyond comprehension.

[Kahuna]

160. Agreed. It's a total ego trip for Dean. Just the fact that..

this guy from this tiny rural, 97% white population state thinks he's ready to be president show his arrogance. The guy has to reach back 25 years to fing instance of when he dealt with minorities on a semi-regular basis.

[59millionmorons]

48. I am with you

I like Dean and Clark until today. Dean lost more support in the primaries and the general. I he wins the nomination I will sit 2004 out.

[Pepperbelly]

53. I would vote for ...

him in the General but I would vote Lieberman before Dean in the primary now.

[59millionmorons]

70. Nope

He lost me for good. Not only has he lost me he lost 3 others in my house today and we are from PA, one of those key states.

[gristy]

131. No you won't

You need to realize that if you sit out you are giving 1/2 vote for Bush. If you are a true dem anti-BFEE, you'll vote. Hold your nose if you have to.

[bowens43]

7. So , you're implying that Clark supporters

will vote for bush is Dean gets the nomination?

[wndycty]

12. Not at all. . .

. . .but if the nomination comes down to Dean and some one other than Clark (with the exception of Lieberman), my vote goes to someone else.

As it relates to the General election, should Dean win I will vote for him, but not campaign for him.

Kerry, Edwards, Graham. . .I am pounding the pavement for them if they secure the nomination.

[Kahuna]

162. My second right now is Gephardt.... But I would..

vote for Lieberman in a primary before I'd vote for Dean.

[wyldwolf]

13. No, he's saying HE won't...

...big difference in the Dean supporters who won't vote for anyone but Dean.

[Kahuna]

161. I can tell you that's ridiculous.... I can't stand Dean but..

I'd hold my nose and vote for him.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

9. All Dean Cares About Is the Nomination

And he realizes like everyone else that Clark is his biggest threat. So of course he goes negative. Incredibly disappointing. Dean is a politician just like most of the rest of them.

DTH

[SingSong]

134. How is it negative to point out facts regarding voting history?

Clark's voting history is public knowledge. A negative attack would be stating something either of dubious sources or repeating outright lies.

How is it that our minds have been dulled so much over the years of right wing bullshit that we think speaking the truth is negative?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

141. Dean's Comments Were Incredibly Misleading

That is negative, and that is not being honest.

[SingSong]

144. I'm missing something

How were they misleading? Seemed upfront to me, but maybe I don't have enough information.

[poskonig]

19. Trippi and McMahon have been making smart decisions.

Clark supporters do not constitute a big chunk for the NH and Iowa electorate. Clark's name recognition is low too. Getting the facts out about Clark is the smart thing to do.

Secondly, Dean isn't going to convert the Clark zealots. That isn't going to happen, since they support Clark because he has stars and they are afraid of Bush. Running a campaign based on their wishes is stupid. These guys would vote for Rumsfeld if he had a 'D' next to his name.

[kodi]

107. reserve the noun "zealots" for dean supporters, not clark's

because i dont see much dean bashing by clark supporters in the way a few dean supporters attack ALL the other competitive candidates.

since i like the messages that dean is making towards more activism, it is hard to fathom dean and some of his avid supporters try to evescerate clark on whom the latter voted for.

that gets the fair doctor nowhere with those of us who want cogent debate on the issues of how to solve america's most pressing problems of economics, war, and health care, all of which dean and clark generally seem to agree upon.

i like a lot of what dean is saying, but some is just plain and simply factually incorrect and is over the top rhetoric that is just raw meat for some of his supporters.

the dismay which i feel for the more insistently vocal dean supporters who think that dean is the second coming of our Lord and are not thinking clearly for themselves to separate the man from the message is not unlike the feeling many who vote republican because while they may well side with the philosophy of progressives, they can't stomach the arrogance of the ones carrying the message.

one can not actually believe that the majority of americans side with the conservative world view, yet about 50% vote that way, in part because of the arrogance of those who demand ideological purity on the left.

dean is looking more and more like an ideologue to me, and while i will support strongly the democratic ticket even if he is heading it, i am concerned that he is shooting his mouth off and is not considering the long term consequences of his words.

and yes, i am getting to the point where i dont feel dean has the termperment to be president. because just because one is right it does not a prioi follow that being right gets things done.

i was very intersted in supporting dean a number of months ago, and the more i investigated the more i thought...."oh, man, that is not the way to convince people, it's a turn-off to those who are still waiting to be convinced by him that he is the one to lead."

and i quote again jfk from 1960 in his acceptence of the nomination for president by the liberal party of new york.... for the umpteenth time:

"Our responsibility is not discharged by an announcement of virtuous ends. Our responsibility is to achieve these objectives with social invention, with political skill, and executive vigor."

i dearly hope dean and his supporters understand this and act accordingly, because if they don't, we are all screwed, since i think he will win the nomination.

[Kahuna]

163. You make me laugh. I suspect..

you are in for a rude awakening.

[diamondsoul]

52. This is no better than Gep's invoking Gingrich at the debate.

Dirty politics and nasty little games.

WTF do people not comprehend about being military meaning that one CAN NOT BE PARTISON?! Now he's civilian and he can afford to align himself with one party or the other, but folks, if our military officers were to pick sides openly, NOTHING would ever get done!

Moreover, that's not just the way you "act" it's a natural part of military life, you just don't take sides. I don't vote party affiliation either, or didn't until this campaign season came up. Dean and Gep playing these kinds of games is just about enough to make me doubt I can hold my nose for either of them.

That's three of them now sitting tied at the very bottom of my list. Who's next?

[cms424]

171. I agree, attacking each other

is not the strategy the Dems want to adopt. In the initial debate they focused on bashing Bush instead of each other, and I think that's what they should continue doing.

I think making a big fuss over Clark's party affiliation is silly, because he's not really a politician at all. Dean should stick to what he is good at - laying out in terms that everyone can understand why Bush's policies don't work.

[wndycty]

4. Also

"Dean also denied asking Clark to join his team. Would be kind of hard to admit that after calling Clark a republican."

So who is the source of the Clark as Dean's VP rumors? Hmmmm

[wyldwolf]

10. Didn't see wingers spreading this info...

... such news would have been BAD for them if true. So they were silent.

See the difference?

[AP]

11. Is this just a straight up lie?

I'm sure some of the quotes about that came straight from Dean. I could be wrong. DU researchers, what do you got on this one?

[DemPopulist]

77. I think so

This was posted on the Daily Kos (Draft-Clark-er turned Dean supporter) site a little over a week ago:

Come on, Kos, it's pretty disingenuous for you to attack my father when you telephoned me per Trippi's instructions right before he came to LA and asked if he would accept a VP nom from Dean. If you and the rest of the Deaniacs think dad's positions are so wrong for the direction of the party, then what does that say about Dean that he was prepared to offer my father the Vice Presidency?

It either says your candidate is a fool with poor judgement or that my father is the real deal that so many who know him (me included) believe him to be. Well, which is it Kos? Is dad the real deal or is Dean a fool?

Posted by WesleyClarkJr. at September 19, 2003 11:32 AM

In a post after that, Kos confirmed that this was written by Clark, Jr. who's posted there before, though he didn't confirm or deny the story told. I saved these comments at the time because I thought they were interesting and might be useful for something I was writing. But when I checked the Kos thread that matches that date (http://www.dailykos.com/archives/004228.html#004228), it looks like all the comments to that post have been deleted. Hmmmmm....

[DemPopulist]

85. Ok, found this....

A link to that Kos comment thread with the Clark, Jr. remarks:

http://www.dailykos.com/MT/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=4228

And a pro-Clark site that reprinted them:

http://www.rynemcclaren.com/blog/archives/000439.html

[DemPopulist]

115. The official version

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57770-2003Sep10.html

Gen. Clark Reportedly Is Asked to Join Dean

By Jim VandeHei and Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, September 11, 2003; Page A01


Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean has asked retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark to join his campaign, if the former NATO commander does not jump into the race himself next week, and the two men discussed the vice presidency at a weekend meeting in California, sources familiar with the discussions said.

[gully]

123. This rumor squashed by both camps.

:boring:

[AP]

157. The denial from Dean was only that he didn't OFFER the VP to Clark

He didn't say that they didn't talk about the possiblity of Clark being his VP.

First, nobody is offering anybody anything firm at this point, so that's not denying anything significant.

Second, the fact that he didn't deny that they talked about it is very telling.

I think it's very reasonable to infer that Dean would have wanted Clark to be his VP at that stage if it would have forestalled Clark's entry (because it's now apparent from polling that Clark is taking Dean's oxygen). I think it's obvious that Dean leaked the story about the meeting to make it sound like Clark considered being his VP becuause that took some thunder from the Clark campaign, briefly. And I think it's obvious that Dean has to attack Clark because Clark is taking his oxygen. And I think it's obvious that Dean made a miscalculation and he's boxed himself into taking a contradictory position that's going to cost him much more than he gains -- if he were a smarter campaigner, he wouldn't have made this mistake. No he's going to have another mark in the waffle column.

[AP]

8. Why did Dean want Clark to be his VP if Clark is such a Republican???

A couple days, Clark was good enough to be Dean's VP, and now he's some kind of Repuke?

[wndycty]

15. No that would be funny. . .

Future debate:

Dean: General Clark was a Republican 25 days ago.

Clark: If that is true, why did your campaign start rumors about me being your VP?

[VolcanoJen]

20. Hammer, meet the head of the nail....

Exactly, wndycty. Exactly.

I still respect and admire Dean, but spinning the Clark as VP rumors against his current claims that Clark is no democrat is nothing more than political gamesmanship. It's very difficult to reconcile that in my mind.

And, for the record, if Dean becomes the nominee, I will of course vote for him, and work for him, and campaign my heart out for him. But for now, he's dropped to the middle of the pack in my mind for spinning Rovian rumors.

[gully]

28. The Dean campaign denied immediately the Clark VP rumors...

They were just that 'rumors'...?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

35. He Admitted on CNN That Clark Would Make a GREAT VP

And that he was considering him, along with others.

DTH

[wndycty]

41. Get that transcript and archieve it. . .

Everytime a Dean supporter starts talking that crap, remind them what Jim Jones, er uh I mean Dean said.

[gully]

49. Who Cares that he said Clark would make a good VP, it doesn't mean

he asked him to be one...

I'm sure Dean will vote for Clark too, should he get the nomination.

Big whoop!

[AP]

61. Did he say 'good' or 'great'?

And, I got the impression from the stories that Dean did ask Clark to consider being his VP. And what was Clark's response? Didn't he even issue a press release saying that he did talk to Dean's campaign and that he wasn't asking to be VP and wasn't going to be anyone's VP at this stage?

[gully]

73. Good, Great whateva. Both men DENIED the rumors.

sorry if that's not good enough to quell the rumor mills.

[AP]

76. Did they?

I hope someone looks this up, but I think Clark denied that he was considering being Dean's VP. Dean's spin had two parts -- that they talked about it and that Clark considered it. Clark denied only part two. I don' t remember Dean denying any part of it.

[gully]

81. They did, I was disapointed that it wasn't true frankly.

Deans campaign formally denied the rumors immediately.

[AP]

86. a citation please?

[gully]

101. Here you go...

http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/politics/2490139/detail.html

"Dean said he's had "extensive discussions" with Clark but did not ask Clark to be his running mate."

One of many available stories on the subject. The rumor was denied immediately by the Dean campaign.

[AP]

Dean didn't deny that they talked about Clark being his VP

Look, nobody is making an outright offer ready for acceptance at this stage. Dean is only denything that he didn't do that.

It still appears to be the case that a Republican was good enough to be Dean's VP until today.

[gully]

124. A Republican who didn't admit they were a Republican perhaps?

And, he was 'good enough' for consideration. He was not asked.

[AP]

133. You'd think Dean would do a little research before getting far enough...

...along that he'd brag about talking to Dean about being his VP.

[gully]

46. But, he never 'asked' him perse. N/T

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. Oh, I Think He Did

It's just not on the public record, so I freely admit that it's just speculation.

DTH

[gully]

60. You 'think' he did, so it must be true

:eyes:

If so, I'm sure Clark will clear the matter up for you. However, being BOTH men denied it, I highly doubt it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

66. Exactly What Part of "I freely admit that it's just speculation"

Didn't you understand?

:crazy:

DTH

[Malikshah]

94. Your subject line matter, DTH

You can change the message in the main text-but your subject line matters. Sorry---you're creating the new meme to be used by both sides in the battle. Good job, there---nothing like adding fuel to a Clark-Dean battle. Say, do folks who do this work for the other campaigns?? Or even the * regime?

Just wondering....I freely admit it's just speculation, though.}(

[DoveTurnedHawk]

98. So Now People Can't Be Held Accountable To Read the Whole Post?

Give me a fucking break.

As for creating memes, now that Dean has attacked my candidate, I sure as hell will do my best to defend him, that's for sure.

DTH

[Malikshah]

109. That was not what I said.

And you know it. It is a classic bait and switch method.

Say onething boldly and then backpedal later on.

I'll give you and the others a break when you stop attacking each other in a childish, self-destructive manner.

Enjoy the playground while it lasts--if * comes back into office you may lose the right for public debate.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

114. WTF Are You Talking About?

You were complaining about my subject line (which, btw, clearly has the word "I Think" in it, so you lose there, too), and I responded.

As for the rest, I am an ABB person, so you can push your unity message somewhere else.

DTH

[Malikshah]

122. Really? ABB?

From reading your many posts today--I would have to disagree. Of course--that is my opinion. When you end a message with words along the lines of -- when x attacks my candidate...etc. -- sorry, the ABB just doesnt jibe.

As for WTF I'm talking about. Read my post again. It's all there in black and white.

Sorry to have hit a nerve. As I've said to many others. Relax. Breathe. We'll get through this together and get the chimp out of office if we just keep our eyes on the prize.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

126. LOL!! You Are So Funny, Dear.

I am an avowed partisan of General Clark, that is certainly no secret to anyone. I am deeply disappointed in Dean today, that is certainly no secret to anyone.

Of course it suits your interests to have Clark and his supporters just sit back and take lying down Dean's dishonest remarks, but I'm not going to be a patsy like that.

I used to love Dean. Now I think he's just another politician, one who I'll vote for in 2004 if he gets our nomination, but one who has dropped to the middle of the pack among the other candidates.

As for your subject line nonsense, you've already lost. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand what "I think" and "speculation" mean.

DTH

[Malikshah]

135. Oh--we're back to the subject line now?

Sorry to disappoint--

I understood and didn't actually give the initial attack on your original post. I just stated that your subject line can be taken as advocating a position unequivocally, while your message says something different. NOT that I took it that way.

I don't expect any supporters to lay back and take abuse-why folks think Dean should is beyond me (if you question this--just check the references to his "temper," etc.)

In responding, however-- we need to focus on the facts of the situation and present them in as clear a fashion as possible. My initial post to you was that some folks would misread it.

So, "dear," there it is.

Have fun.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

137. Perhaps Some Who Don't Know What "I Think" Means Might Misread It

And judging from some of the silly and clueless posts I've seen on DU in the past, you're probably right, I bet I did confuse quite a few people.

:crazy:

DTH

[Malikshah]

142. OK then

If we're going to revert to the crazy meme as a defense then I'm done w/ the discussion.

Have fun

[DoveTurnedHawk]

143. You Were Done a While Ago, Dear (eom)

DTH

[Sideways]

145. With You Here And The "Dear" Shit Is Just That.... Shit

DTH has his panties in a twist. Or would that be a Clark twist?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

147. Yes Dear

My panties are in a twist...but not as twisted as Dean's dishonest and misleading attacks against Clark.

DTH

[wyldwolf]

51. So, he admitted a Republican would make a great VP then?

hahahahahaha!

[gully]

63. Perhaps?

Your admitting a Republican would make a great President arent you?

[wyldwolf]

.

[wyldwolf]

.

[wyldwolf]

68. Nope! Because there is no evidence Clark was a republican...

[gully]

74. Generally Voter Reg cards are public are they not?

:shrug: That would be 'evidence' and perhaps Dean is privy to this info.

[wyldwolf]

78. Perhaps he should make it public?

Before he repeats the rightwing stories? I've tried to research the voting records of all the candidates but come up empty.

[gully]

82. It was up to Clark to do so, frankly. And he dropped the ball

so Dean did it for him. His advisors are not the brightest for allowing this to happen. He should have done it himself in a very public way. At the Debates perhaps?

[wyldwolf]

105. No, the burden of proof is on Dean...

..as it is on anyone who makes an accusation.

[gully]

110. Well then I'm sure the proof is coming soon...

:cry:

[wyldwolf]

140. You hope it is...

[seventhson]

80. That was BEFORE the media lies and fakery became apparent

Dean may have been taken in by the anti-war fakery too.

Now he sees through it.

Smart guy.

He should keep his distance from Clark and stay out of small planes.

[wyldwolf]

83. I see! You have insight into Dean the rest of us don't.

Does he call you every night?

[Bread and Circus]

151. Do you have a link to the transcript....

That would be really useful to clear some
things up.

[catforclark2004]

93. Dean imploding as we speak

Dean is showing his weakness by allowing himself to be used by the Rove's White House and it's mediawhores.

since the debate, the press has been purposely baiting the other 9 candidates by emphasizing how the General had been temporarily left alone.... Then the media set their clock and waited to see how long it would take for each candidate to react. Those the most threatened would react the fastest and take the bait, i.e., Lieberman, Kerry and Dean (in that order).

Dean's performance today confirms that he can be easily manipulated when fearful....and less than insightful about the White House's media strategy.....Of course the media loves nothing better than some bloodshed on the battlefield....and they will lap it up and give it losta of coverage.

Meanwhile, General Wesley Clark, will strategically not respond in such a personal manner and come off as a class act. One that's cool under attack....and therefore, look that much more presidential.

Most independents, undecided, moderate Republicans, and Reagan Democrats, as well as New Democrats don't like extreme partisanship. They will either solidify themselves behind clark...and please know that many are changing their party affiliations in states where required just to vote in the primaries. If Clark loses and ends up not being on the ticket, they will become alienated and resort back to Bush. These are potentional voters that could make the difference during the general election. They would be willing to vote for a good centrist ticket...which, if Dean would have played it right could have been Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean.

If the point is to defeat Bush, the strategy must be exact. It would have been a wiser strategy, in my humble opinion, if Dean would have come out with a critic on Clark's policy issues as they would have been laid out....as opposed to personally attacking the man's integrity by questioning what he represents.

If Clark says he is a Democrat, that should be good enough for the party with the "large Tent".....and believe you me, disenchanted Republicans will be an important factor in the 2004 Presidential election.

[Mz Pip]

119. You're right

Dean just lost the election by alienating the Republicans who might have otherwise voted for him. If he thinks he can beat George Bush by relying solely on angry disgruntled Democrats he is seriouly mistaken.

One of the reasons I support Clark is because he seems to have a broad base of appeal. I, too, am sick of extreme partisanship. It may have started with the Republicans but the Democrats do not need to sink to that level. In Dean's world the only people he seems to be happy with having in the "Big Tent" are the ones who are angry and want payback.

I'm angry at Bush, I want him gone, but I also want this country to moe forward in a positive direction. I don't see that happening with Dean.

MzPip
:dem:

[AP]

136. This is why Dean does well with Dems, but poorly with all voters in the

head to head matchup with Bush (I've seen him behind Kerry, Clark and Gep in two head to head polls in the last three days).

He antagonizes Republicans and pushes center right voters to the right.

[Kahuna]

164. Clark's sin seems to be that..

He doesn't see people as Ds or Rs. Most people don't view others that way and THAT's the contituency Clark is appealing to.
very smart and very classy. I believe that he has lived his life as non partisan.

We're going to have a very classy man in the White House soon. Can't wait.

[diplomats]

146. Excellent post

and welcome to DU! :)

[Jawja]

16. It is disingenuous

of Dean to cite the votes for the Republicans and to leave out the votes for Democrats in painting Clark as a Republican.

I think Clark has been a genuine independent who is running for President as a Democrat because he either:

1. See's an opportunity to be President and knows he cannot beat * running against him as a Republican; OR

2. He is sincerely concerned about the path our country is taking and relates more to Democratic domestic and foreign policy values than Republican PNAC ambitions and "compassionate conservatism" bunk.

The campaign will certainly reveal which one it is, IMHO.

on edit: If Dean wants to challenge Clark on the "he is a Republican" argument, I would rather see Dean attack Clark on his positions on the issues that are facing us today, in 2003. That being said, I also think the alledged praise by Clark of some of the Bush cabal is fair game for Dean.

[ima_sinnic]

62. if you will remember, Clark didn't even declare his party

until he announced his candidacy. You don't remember how annoyed a lot of DUers were that he was waffling and playing head games? Some even posted "what if Clark runs as a Republican?" threads. Dean is absolutely correct, Clark has been a Democrat for only about 25 days. Meanwhile, the other candidates have been busting their humps for the Democrats. People resent that he just shows up and thinks he warrants automatically going to the front of the line.

[wyldwolf]

72. That is incorrect...

...he announced his party BEFORE his candidacy.

[Code_Name_D]

138. About two weeks before.

I remember. The press made a big deal out of it. Two weeks later, he is the presumed front runner of the Democratic Party.

The skunks are holding their nose on this one, it smells so bad.

[Kahuna]

165. "Busting their humps?!?!" Being in the military and being

shot up serving your country is busting one's hump in my opinion. I'm trying to minimize the contribution of professional politicians. But I think it ridiculous to try to minimize the contributions of a four star general in comparision. They all serve our country. One not better than the other. And that's being generous. A lot of people would say that the career military person contributes more.

[jonnyblitz]

17. damn you Clark supporters are thin skinned.

you would never make it in Chicago politics. :crazy:

[wndycty]

18. Oh really?

Why do you say that? I am just calling Dean on his BS, I am whining?

[wyldwolf]

24. No...no...

He is equating Dean supporters with the tough Chicago electorate. :eyes:

[janx]

108. Yes, you are whining. And attacking.

. It's really very silly.

[gully]

116. Yep...

:nopity: :cry:

[Closer]

23. "thin skinned" isn't

exactly the word I'm thinking ;-)

You're too kind to them.

[wyldwolf]

27. Well then tell us the word you're thinking?

[wndycty]

31. Oh really. . .

. . .before I decided who I wanted I post a constructive criticism of Dean on MTP, I was labeled a basher. . .who has thin skin.

[wyldwolf]

56. Have you noticed that Closer is a hit and run type of gal?

...she jumps in, makes a dumb-ass remark - then runs away.

[Kahuna]

166. I've noticed. She doesn't even rate a response from me..

Why bother? She won't be around long enough to read it.

[seventhson]

34. Clark refused to say he was a Democrat until 25 days ago. So THAT

means he wasn't a democrat until 25 days ago.

Crossover voting (which he sure as hell could be lying about too) means diddly).

He was helping the Rethugs fundraise within the last two years.

And if Dean asked Clark to JOIN his team and was rebuffed, then turnabout is fair play. At first blush even I fell for Clark and the media lies about him being progressive and against this war.

He wasn't against the war -- he was against the WAY it was being fought.

Clark is basically a Republican.


But what really troubles me is that he worked for the same money people who financed the Bushes AND Clinton: The Stephens Group. Clark is the penultimate insider for the military industrial complex.

[diplomats]

64. Clark campaigned for Dems in 2002

and raised money for them. Check your facts.

[wyldwolf]

65. You just don't see the difference, do you?

There is a difference between not being a democrat 25 day ago and being a republican 25 days ago.

He was also helping he Dems fundraise in the last ONE year.

[Jawja]

36. I am neither a Clark or a Dean

supporter at this time. I haven't decided. I am in the process of deciding. Actually, I support the efforts of both, as well as Kerry and Edwards - I just haven't decided which one I would vote for President.

So my criticism of Dean is not coming from being "thin skinned." I am pointing out the obvious to me, as a currently impartial observer at this point in the process.

[gully]

22. IF CLARK HAD BEEN UP FRONT ABOUT THIS, IT WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE

Look, I am not against Clark. In fact, I'll give the guy a chance. But, were he smart, he'd have brought this stuff to light himself and made his 'conversion' a huge part of his campaign.

Had he done so, Dean's revelations to the American public would not have been noteworthy. :shrug:

It's not to late for Clark to do this, and it would actually be good for him as he would draw many Republicans who are turned off to BUSHCO.

[janx]

33. Yep.

He should address this soon, if it's true.

[wyldwolf]

38. Right!

Clinton should have confessed to his fling with Monica before the rightwing ever found out!

Point is, neither Clark or Clinton did anything that would effect his job.

Should all the candidates put out a report that documents every step of their lives so rabid rumor mongers on the right don't exploit something - and their left wing minions don't parot it to bolster their own candidate?

[gully]

54. Uhm, I think a political past is noteworthy for POLITICAL reasons.

And, sex is not.

Huge difference.

Clarks political past is a matter of record, his not being upfront was an invitation to any smart politician to mention it.

Clark should have done so himself!

[wyldwolf]

75. Ok fair enough...

So Clark has just as many - if not more - democratic credentials as republican ones.

[diplomats]

47. This is no revelation

it's been in the news for days. Clark has been candid about not being partisan one way or the other until recently.

[gully]

57. Good, then it shouldn't hurt him...

:shrug:

[robbedvoter]

92. It doesn't hurt Clark. It hurts Dean.

Clark said in his announcement speech that he is appealing crossover party lines - and guess what? They are coming in droves. These comments bring us the independents and moderate GOP-ers who want W out - just like the previous angle ("Clinton's sock puppet") brought us the dems.
I had respect for Dean not taking the bait on this in the debate. he blew it now.
As long as people like Ed Koch or LaRouche call themselves Democrats, the purity claims are ridiculous.

[gully]

104. Did it hurt Gep and Kucinich and Kerry when they attacked Dean?

Again I ask the question.

Welcome to politics Clark supporters.

It's been a long ride for us Dean folk, and I for one, am glad to see the love spread around a bit... :nopity:

[JohnKleeb]

26. no opinion on the matter

but a question, it seemed before my internet went down a couple of weeks ago that some Dean supporters considered Clark as a VP and it was mostly Kucinich supporters who expressed their iffyness about Clark, I say mostly because I know of some people who support others felt iffy as well, I am just saying it seemed like a fair majority of DU's Dean supporters liked Clark, I come back and more had a disfavorable opinion. Just my observation. I am not sure Clark was a republican 25 days ago although I really dont care for him much. I am not defending or condoning anything. Just saying what my points.

[seventhson]

71. When I found out his historyand claims that he was a war criminal surfaced

I changed my tune and posted some of this history on DU. A lot of iut got deleted and some of the information was and is difficult to substantiate.

But the things that CAN be verified, like the use of Depleted Uranium and the brutal bombing of civilian areas and his connections to MPRI in Columbia as head of the Southern Command (which covers all military operations, public and private in Latin/Central America and hence early versions of Plan Columbia which is brutal and terroristic IMHO) AND finally the recent ties of Clark to the nefarious Stephens Group (who arranged Saudi Funding for Bush's Harken venture) and Axcion surveillance company where he lobbied the White House and the CIA for Nazi-like identification systems under the guise of National Security IMHO


ALL of these turned me around in about a half day.

In a few words: Clark is a military/corporate insider for the right wing IMHO.

But he has been portrayed as an antiwar general (A HUGE LIE).

He fundraises for Republicans and speaks favorably about Bush and all his cronies.

THAT is what the Clark supporters here are endorsing.

NOT ME


Right now my favorite winning ticket is Dean/Edwards.

If Clark got the VP sloit I think Dean woiuld be Wellstoned within 6 months. And I think he knows it NOW.

This ain't beanbag. People kill and people die for control of our government and it ain't over till ALL of the BFEE are in prison with NO PHONE privileges.

[JohnKleeb]

89. Well if we want the antidote I am gonna sit here with my

Kucinich sign. Here's a guy who is truly the anti thesis of the right wing. Great guy too, my candiate for all the right reasons. Now if you excuse the Kucinich supporters are having a polka party ;) I am joshing. I dont like Clark either.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

29. And Dean was a DINO until he ran for president

sad but true

[VermontDem2004]

58. Your right

The signing of the Civil Unions bill in Vermont just proved he was DINO, so was winning the Paul Wellstone Award, also being against the reasons we went to Iraq.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

90. he wouldn't even sign that bill in public

let's not pretend he "took leadership" on it, he was forced to pass it, and spent months hiding from it.

[gully]

128. Could have been the DEATH threats!?

:eyes:

[Kahuna]

167. I don't think he had a choice in signing it...

the court ruled and gave civil unions to gays. Not Dean.

[clar]

32. As a Dean supporter

I really disliked his going negative on Clark. I was disappointed.

[blm]

55. I'n not surprised.

The "good" doctor went after Kerry when he was laid up after cancer surgery and off the campaign trail. Must have been a fine time to hear himself being called "Bushlite" by a centrist.

[OKNancy]

59. Thank you

and as a Clark supporter, if Clark does such a thing I will be very disappointed too.

[janx]

84. He probably will, sooner or later. That's politics.

This is a primary election, after all.

I would wager, however, that when this is all over, both Clark and Dean will be the ones who have done the least amount of bashing.

[Kahuna]

168. Clark is gonna rip him. But it will be a surgical strike..

that will be in direct response to Dean trying to dis him at a debate. If Dean knows what's good for him he won't try Clark. He cannot win in a war of wits.

[gully]

67. Why is it negative to tell the truth?

I didnt see the interview, but why is truth negative?

[Kahuna]

169. I'll tell you why it was ugly. Dean's attacks were based..

upon the kind of reporting you would find on Drudge or Counterpunch. He's just throwing out rumors he's heard. They are based upon spin by the hysterical right and left. To date, there is nothing in the press that says Clark was a republican and Dean knows it.

Kerry and Lieberman basically called Clark a freshly minted Dem. That even makes me laugh because it's true. But what Dean said has not been proven to be true. So he basically is just taking a cheap shot.

[1monster]

39. This is the sort of thing that turned me off many Republicans during the

eighties. And it is the reason I don't much like Dean. I get tired of politicians trying to score points by trashing other candidates. (And he has been doing it since I first started noticing him a few months ago... remember the "second tier" hubris?)

I can't say that Clark is my first choice in this race; I don't know enough about him yet. But even if he were registered Republican until twenty-five days ago, that would not be a major point in deciding to support or not support Clark during the primaries.

After all, my husband is still registered Republican, but since the mid nineties, he has been turning slowly but surely to what he is in his heart now: A Yellow Dog Democrat.

[gully]

69. Where was the outrage at Gep, Kucinich and Kerry for trashing Dean?

as they have done?

I don't like it either gang, but it's typical IMHO.

[diplomats]

87. I didn't like that, either

eom

[1monster]

102. Did they? Sorry, I missed it. Except that Dean was called on some,

for lack of a better word, waffling during some televised event or another by Kucinich and Dean denied the charge. Only to come out AFTER the event and quietly admit that, yes, he had said thus and such and that Kucinich was, in fact, correct in his facts...

Sorry, for me you could substitute John McCain for Howard Dean and I wouldn't see much difference in political aura.

And I haven't decided who to support for the primaries yet. I lean very strongly for Graham, but at the moment, his campaign isn't generating much excitement.

At any rate, I am a member of the ABBFEE club. If Dean gets the nomination, I will vote for him even if it makes me a bit queasy to do so.

[gully]

120. I'm a member of the same club...

ABB all the way for me ...

Dean has been attacked by the other candidates for months. Sometimes in cryptic emails to supporters ect.

Sometimes in the Debates.

And, isn't switching partys 'waffling' in a big way.

[RogueTrooper]

42. Welcome to the black art of polical campaigning

:evilgrin:

[VermontDem2004]

79. Dean nailed it

Clark "I would've been a republican..."

[Pepperbelly]

91. Dean nailed himself ...

watch and see.

His reputation among the non-Deaniacs has suffered greatly.

[gully]

95. Did Gephardt and Kucinich suffer greatly among the ranks too

when they attacked Dean?

:puke:

[diplomats]

130. Their attacks certainly didn't work

because Dean's share of the vote didn't drop. I suspect this outburst won't hurt Clark, either.

[diamondsoul]

152. Kucinich has never "attacked" another candidate, period.

He's brought up facts he thinks the voting public ought to be aware of twice now, once about Clark and once about Dean. NEVER Has Kucinich claimed any of the others were Republicans, nor that they supported a Gingrich plan.

Show me a single statement Kucinich has amde that was false or truly "attacking", because it looks to me like your idea of attacks and mine are very different.

[diplomats]

96. The sources for that anecdote

were two Repukes, one of whom is close to Karl Rove. Clark never said he called the WH; they did. If you want more on this, see Josh Marshall's site:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com

[bicentennial_baby]

106. Transcript: Would you consider him as a potential running mate?

BLITZER: Let's move on and talk about General Wesley Clark. He may or may not, in the coming days, decide to become number 10, the tenth Democratic hopeful for the White House.

You have high regard for him. Would you consider him as a potential running mate?

DEAN: Yes. There would be a great many people, of course, that would be considered as potential running mates.

And I must say, I think it's much too early to discuss potential running mates. I mean, we're five months from the time the first official vote and delegate-selection process takes place, so I find it very premature.

But I think Wes Clark, he is somebody I keep in close touch with. He's a terrific person, very bright, very capable, very thoughtful. Our views coincide on a number of matters, and he is a -- I certainly can't say enough good things about him. It'd be tough to run against him.

BLITZER: Well, if he decides to run, would you be disappointed that he throws his hat in the ring?

DEAN: Not a bit. You know, I think this is a democracy, and I never get disappointed when people throw their hats in the ring. You know, he has every right to get out there and give his views and do the Iowa and New Hampshire and so forth thing, and I wouldn't be the least bit disappointed.


http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/24/le.00.html

[wyldwolf]

111. BAM! Deanies? Hello?

[gully]

118. BFD!

:shrug:

HELLO!!!

[wyldwolf]

127. It is a big fucking deal when there are some in this thread...

...denying it happened.

[tjdee]

132. "Our views coincide on a number of matters"

He just "can't say enough good things about him".

But NOW,


What a Republican (code meaning don't vote for him!) Clark is!


That Dean. What a consistent fellow.

[Malikshah]

129. "Deanies?"

Uh, folks might get a better response if the question was not posed in such a disparaging manner.

Deanies? A bit flaming there.

As for the transcript--gully's it the nail on the head-- in best political speak-- Dean responded to Blitzer's queries--Clark and any others would be great--but that it's a bit arrogant to begin speaking of such things so many months out.

Sounds like a typical, savvy response from someone who needs to be careful, and to lead. Something that I expect anyone (Dean or others) should answer in response to such a baiting question.

Dean passes w/ flying colors on this one.

Those who wish to use it to attack him...well--let them stew in their own juices. Sorry--no smoking gun here (an homage to the "BAM")

Best, MS

[Kahuna]

170. Oh brother. Why so sensitive about being called a deanie?

Just an attempt to deflect and change the subject is my guess.

[gully]

113. Uhm, so?

DEAN: Yes. There would be a great many people, of course, that would be considered as potential running mates.

"consider" key word here.

[DemCam]

156. Eisenhower?

Off the top of my head, this has been said about every military man that has ever considered public office. They all must choose a party because one cannot be political as a career officer, as we all know.

Dunno why we have to be so concerned about this.

Let's listen listen listen listen to what he says about the issues!

Now!

[bearfan454]

103. He f&cking is !

He voted for and supported Nixon and Reagan. That is repuke.

[kang]

139. Bear fan too, but let me get this straight

so if somebody voted Republican before, you don't want them on your side if they've changed their mind or decide your side is right?

Military men voted for Reagan because it was the cold war and he was taking the position that many of them agreed with (hard line). It's not like Carter was doing a bang-up job and instilled confidence that he'd handle the Soviets. There were a number of Reagan Dems remember (many were Bears fans too)?

As for Nixon, I think nearly everybody would acknowledge voting for him was a mistake in hindsight (nearly). Bob Kerrey voted for him and felt betrayed...should we discount his service as a Democrat because he voted that way once too?

Look, Clark's life has been committed to service and leading his troops. People who don't live, eat, and breathe politics sometimes don't get all the info, but vote the best they can. Mistakes happen, but he's man of integrity who believes in accountability (his whole life's been based on it) and if he says he's a Democrat and that he holds these positions (pro-choice, pro-aff. action, assault weapons ban, multi-lateralist, towards a move to universal health care, equal education opportunities) then why can't people just wait to pass judgement?

[kang]

125. Surprising IF Dean did say that about Clark

since Clark helps the party in bringing in even more independents (in addition to Dean's efforts). He also bolsters the Dem attack on Bush's foreign policy.

Like somebody said, Leiberman's desperate, but if Dean did say such a thing I'd find that rather surprising. He's worked across the aisle to get things done in Vermont and isn't a ideological purist, he's a problem-solver. Clark's already said that he's moderate, but it was a choice of being a lonely Republican or a happy Dem. It was a mistake, but hardly one that closes the door on him. People need to remember that the diff. btw Republicans and Democrats in AR are much more blurry than in other places in the country. It's a pretty incestuous scene (politically, to clarify and avoid trouble with southern DUers!).

I'm sorry, but IF true this goes to a pattern that Dean is willing to hurt other Dems just to get the nomination. He's been critical of Congress and how they went along w/Bush on too many things. This is a legitimate argument, but the anger and passion that he brings to this point has at times nearly equaled his rants against Bush. That doesn't help members of Congress who'll need to run...what's they're theme? Yeah, Dean called me a sell-out but for him and me too?

And for the record, I'm from Chicago too and I don't think we want our national party being run like Daly's machine.

[KaraokeKarlton]

150. Well, was he?

I mean, how do you know he wasn't registered as a Republican until he decided to run?

[tjdee]

153. There is no party registration in Arkansas.

We've been through this over and over.

He was an independent.

[KaraokeKarlton]

154. I hadn't seen other discussions

Are you serious that there are no state Democratic and Republican party resgistration in Arkansas? Do you have some kind of link showing that? It just seems very bizarre to me. I'm not saying you're wrong, because I have no idea...it just seems very strange.

[KaraokeKarlton]

155. Actually, you can register your party affiliation

See option #6 on the following link.

(edited link out because it didn't work right. Do the google search.)

Go to google and type in Arkansas voter registration and click on the "View as HTML" option of the second link that comes up.

[Shanty Oilish]

158. Voted Clinton-Clinton-Gore, did he?

Yes, it's a non-issue. It's impossible to verify.

[Julien Sorel]

159. Dean's internal polls must be pretty scary.

[Kahuna]

173. Yepper! You nailed it.

nt