Anybody else hear Al Franken and the phone sex worker on his Friday show?

[CTyankee]

Utterly depressing.

If you missed it, Al called a phone sex for hire that used the numbers of KATRINA. He wanted to ask if they would turn over their number to the government so people would be able to more easily phone for assistance.

The phone sex worker answered in a low, sexy voice. But as soon as Al identified that he was on a radio show and asked his question, she turned mean and nasty. She said that she was IN Louisiana, that she paid her taxes and that the victims of the hurricane were better off than she was (they were cashing in on government money)!

I don't think Al knew what hit him and neither did I. She was vituperative and filled with hate and loathing for the hurricane victims.

I wonder if her status in a deeply hypocritical society has unhinged her. It must be difficult to hold your head up self righteously when you're in her line of work. (I have nothing against phone sex, BTW, my point is that she must be HUGELY conficted down there in the Bible Belt). The utter inhumanity toward her fellow Louisianians was horrifying.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Al Franken

As much as I like his comedy and embrace his political stands, he has absolutely no talent as a radio host. I've tried to listen - and watch, on Sundance - a number of times, and it's achingly bad. Embarrassing, even.

What's the point of Franken pulling a stunt like this? The woman was caught off-guard and publicly embarrassed. What's the point?

[CTyankee]

8. Agree in part

Sometimes his radio show routines go way off the mark.

But Al didn't trick her. He said up front what he was about. And he paid for his 10 minutes with her so she lost no business. She COULD have just said "Not interested, this is a business, buddy" and hang
up. She didn't seem to be embarrassed and if anything, used Al's for her own national soapbox. Pretty clever to turn the situation around like that.

[Teaser]

11. I think Franken's great on radio.

nt.

[barbaraann]

2. Sex workers have to be heartless.

Otherwise they would not engage with men in relationships who are basically cheating on their loved one.

[benburch]

7. I beg to differ.

I know more sexworkers, that is, strippers, prostitutes, porn actors and actresses, and phone sex workers than you have ever even thought about meeting.

I know very few who meet the definition of "heartless". No more than heartless people in any profession.

I suggest you do some reading;

http://www.DoloresFrench.com/ <-- My friend (And Mike Malloy's good friend) Dolores French

http://www.AnnieSprinke.org/ <-- My friend Annie Sprinkle

http://www.xavierahollander.com/ <-- My friend Xaviera Hollander

"Cop to Call Girl" by Norma Jean Almodovar

Also the book "Sex Work" edited by my friend Priscilla Alexander

[barbaraann]

9. And I know families destroyed by "sex workers."

Adultery is adultery and it is damaging.

Would you have sex with a married person who was cheating on their spouse? I wouldn't.

Ben, I witnessed what happened to people with money (lots of money) to burn from the tech bubble of the nineties and a lot of that money went for stippers, hookers, etc. It was spectacularly destructive.

[Lerkfish]

12. IMHO, that's the fault of the client, not the workers...

you seem to be blaming strippers for the alleged weaknesses of their clients.

maybe you should rethink that.

Many years ago I knew a few dancers. They're nice people. Often, they have no other skills or they simply prefer this method of income, or they're single mothers and have no other way to feed them. IF there were no people willing to pay them, they wouldn't be working. period.

if the clients ruin their own families, or incomes because of their own inablility to do things in moderation or openly, that's their own fault.

I feel the same way when people blame mistresses for being "homewreckers", but a man who is faithful and a mistress would never get together. Blaming HER for HIS infidelity is misogynist, IMHO.

[barbaraann]

15. How about this...

let's just say that any sexual behavior involving deception is wrong because deception is damaging to human relationships, just like secrecy is damaging in government.

[benburch]

33. If it is wrong, and I allow that it is.

How is that the sexworker's fault?

You expect her to ask each client a questionnaire?

She should ask them all if they are there without their partner's consent?

And should she also find out if her clients have a vow of celibacy?

Or where they got the money?

Or if their are politicians who draft laws against sexual freedom?

Or if they are on the clock at work?

Or if they told their aged mom whose basement they live in that they are at the Library?

Or if they are double-parked outside?

[barbaraann]

49. Well, people are expected to know if a sex partner is underaged,

so, there are some responsibilities. And, you might have just hit on a way I could accept prostitution--if there was full disclosure by both parties.

I had to fill out a full page legal form to buy a bicycle last week, so maybe that would be good for sex workers, too.

[mongo]

41. I think it is more misandryst than misogynist

I feel the same way when people blame mistresses for being "homewreckers", but a man who is faithful and a mistress would never get together. Blaming HER for HIS infidelity is misogynist, IMHO.

It the attitude that "men can't help themselves" and therefore bare no responsibility - therefore if they visit a prostitute, or have a mistress it is always the woman's fault - because, as we all know, men are pigs.

[benburch]

13. Happens with girlfriends too.

What a person does with his or her money and moral decisions is up to that person. The sexworker is not responsible!

I'll give you an example;

My friend, Annie Sprinkle used to work with clients nobody else would; Deformed people, ugly people, dwarfs, paraplegics, quadriplegics. She found this to be the most rewarding work of all as she knew that these people would never have the joy of sex in their lives in any other way. This was long before the concept of a "medical sexual surrogate" was popularized. I don't think there is any way that what she did was immoral or heartless!

And this may surprise you, but there are MANY married women who have totally lost interest in sex and actually encourage their husbands to go to sexworkers! And many more who don't see the strip club as any threat if in moderation!

[barbaraann]

18. When two people have sex, both are responsible.

Otherwise it is not consensual.

I have a very, very liberal attitude about sex when no deception or desperation is involved, but I am old enough to have seen a lot of damage to people when there is deception and desperation. That includes my family because my father was a sex industry customer.

"Many married women who have totally lost interest in sex?" That can easily be fixed without sending the man to prostitutes.

[benburch]

20. Nope, sorry, I disagree.

I've had sex with people (both genders) that I never knew the name of, never talked to, never saw again, and in some cases never even had much of a good look at. But I certify to you there was consent on both parts. I don't know that they had a spouse. I don't know that they didn't have a spouse. That was not my responsibility. And it was not theirs to pry into my situation either. Just like when I go to an orgy, when somebody enters a brothel or a strip club, consent on their part for sexual contact (or teasing) for remuneration is assumed, whether they are workers or customers.

[barbaraann]

22. So a wedding ring wouldn't bother you?

What if someone showed you pictures of their spouse and children?

What if your sexual partner's cell phone rang and it was their spouse looking for them and they lied about where they were and what they were doing?

Sorry, I really don't think sneaking and deception are good for people. My father was a sex industry customer and I know what it did to my family--I've posted about this before.

[benburch]

28. Wedding rings?

Most people have those. Nope. Doesn't bother me one bit. You need to understand the concept of "Open Marriage" and "Swinging". Consent of the other partner is assumed! (And usually they are someplace else in the place similarly finding their own bliss.)

If somebody TELLS me they are cheating, and that the other party does not consent, that is a definite reason to not play with them. But I don't ask. That is just not my business. Period.

Likewise, a sexworker does not have any right to ask such questions.

And if she did, who says the client would tell the truth?

Nope, it is the client's responsibility and the client's responsibility alone to decide if he or she is doing something they can ethically deal with later.

I'm sorry that your father was a cad. So was mine, but he didn't do sexworkers; He lied to young women on Okinawa and promised that they could come back to the States and marry him. And had there been no sexworkers available, your father would likely have similarly victimized some trusting young woman. Given that scenario, I think him cheating with a sexworker was actually preferable. Don't you?

MOST marriages have infidelity, but a sexworker is almost never going to fall in love with a client and ask him or her to leave their spouse.

[barbaraann]

32. Most GOOD marriages don't have infidelity.

I'm happy to hear that you won't play with someone who tells you they are cheating.

Regarding cheating with prostitutes vs. cheating with lovers...I think that there is a lot of truth to the idea that some people will cheat with whatever is available. I would guess that men who frequent prostitutes are more likely to be the ones who can't get free sex as some men can, so there might be a distinction along those lines. I've known a lot of men who would never, ever, ever have to pay for sex. That includes most musicians, in my experience. :-)

Let's put this in perspective: If we don't get PAPER BALLOTS, any discussion about sex will be irrelevant because we will all be worked like slaves 24/7 and eliminated when we can't work any more. Arguing about the sex industry now is a waste of time that we should be spending on fighting Diebold.

[benburch]

35. Who are you to judge MY marriage?

We swing.

Under most definitions, that is infidelity.

And I agree on the voter-verified paper ballots!

[barbaraann]

42. Well,

I do judge people on whether or not they are honest (Bush, for example) and if you are honest with each other then that honesty is a good thing. If there were deception involved I would judge the deceiver(s) as bad. I view swinging without deception as potentially damaging, but I do not view it as bad.

[benburch]

44. Whereas I think monogamy is an unnatural and damaging state for humans.

I see it as an enforcement of the very damaging judeo-christian-muslim religious dogmas, and not a normal or healthy state for the animal that we are.

[barbaraann]

46. Things are very different now because of overpopulation and fascism.

There may never be a "normal and healthy" again.

[the_spectator]

81. Well, be happy then -

I agree that monogamy is relatively "unnatural" for human beings. And our society is quickly shedding it. Unfortunately, what IS natural can be found in many primates (baboons the main example that comes to mind), and most human cultures for most of history: polygamy. Polygamy in which the alpha males (the rich, the powerful, the strong) enjoy harems, and in which most males (the others) have no sexual relationships with females.

Of course, you know that "Muslim religious dogmas" do NOT support monogamy, but rather the standard polygamous system.

I believe that monogamy, as unusual and unnatural as it is, made it possible for western culture to develop the idea that "all men are created equal" and then the idea that women are part of that equation as well. I think for example of the old phrase, "An Englishman's home is his castle" which stands for the idea that we should have a certain right to privacy and security in our own homes. It's no accident that this idea arose in a monogamous society, where most men, rich or poor, had one wife, and children as well; where each man, rich or poor, had a "household."

But you're right it's unnatural. Monogamy grew up in the west because it was supported by THREE separate traditions: 1) Roman law officially allowed for only one wife at a time (thus the many divorces that prominent Roman men often had; they wanted (naturally) to marry many women, but they could only do that serially.) 2) Yes, Christianity: perhaps the only major religion in which monogamy was clearly and unequivocally mandated. 3) The Germanic barbarians who eventually precipitated Rome's fall, unusually for "barbarians", were MONOGAMOUS - and had an unusually high regard and respect for their women. (see Tacitus).

But be happy! Baboon city, here we come!

[benburch]

88. Our closest relatives in the primate kingdom...

the Bonobo, do not have harems. Sexuality there has the role of peacekeeping and pleasure. My belief is that this is also the natural state for Homo Sapiens

[TorchTheWitch]

82. then put blame on your father where it belongs!

I seriously think you need therapy about this. You're going so overboard in trying to make your dad look squeaky clean in your eyes by blaming what happened with him the fault of an entire industry.

I've got news for you... your father WENT LOOKING for what he got. If HE didn't GO LOOKING for it, it would never have happened, and it just as easily could have been a relationship with a woman who was NOT a sex worker... in which case you wouldn't have a problem with sex workers and would just bash "homewreckers" at every opportunity instead.

[benburch]

21. Oh and...

How would you "fix" the problem of married women who no longer want (or cannot have) sex?

Here are your parameters; They love each other. They do not want a divorce. He is still keenly interested in sex. She wants him to have a sex life.

Can you solve that?

It's sexworkers, a "medical sexual surrogate" or a mistress as I see it.

[barbaraann]

24. I can't solve it but a therapist can.

And often it's not really a sex problem, but another problem (money for example) manifesting itself as a sex problem.

I do not believe that there is any sex problem that cannot be fixed if two people love each other, unless there is a sexual orientation situation.

[benburch]

29. You have a very optimistic view of what a therapist can accomplish!

Yes, sometimes a therapist can help. I'd guess maybe one time in five.

And sometimes a therapist can lay a huge guilt trip on the woman so that she consents to sex that is physically and emotionally unrewarding or even painful. Is that what you want???

The people I am talking about worked out a solution on their own they are mutually happy with.

Who are you to tell them they are wrong?

[barbaraann]

34. I don't think any man has an excuse for being a bad lover.

But, hey, we need to be fighting for PAPER BALLOTS!!!! Seriously, we should be spanked for not focusing on the fight against fascism. :D

[benburch]

37. Goes way beyond being a bad lover!

Some women are just so physically or emotionally damaged by events in their lives from long before marriage or disease of various sorts that sex is just not a fun or pleasurable thing for them. No lover could correct that no matter how careful, slow, or skilled.

And I know of men in the same situation whose wives are allowed to play with others.

[barbaraann]

43. Ahem...

Well, in that case I would recommend learning French. That is guaranteed to make anyone irresistable.

[benburch]

58. You discount the emotional damage.

And the fact that many women (and men) lose or never had the ability to feel sexual pleasure.

[barbaraann]

60. Well, I've seen some remarkable things in my life.

I've seen people recover from all sorts of emotional damage. I guess sociopaths never become human, though.

[Cats Against Frist]

105. That's the beauty of America, Barbara

As a libertarian, I think that sex workers shouldn't be regulated/prohibited by the government, but, at the same time, they shouldn't be insulated/protected from the real outcomes of their behavior, nor be sheilded from insults about their character. You and I Barbara, may be free to feel that they're "skanks & hos" (and this goes for male sex workers, too), who perpetuate trashy narratives, destroy families and otherwise contribute to the human as object/human as capital condition -- heartless, or otherwise.

They're free to practice, and I'm free to make judgments. That's a free country.

[Finder]

64. With all due respect...

Your attitude is far from "liberal" my dear.

[benburch]

30. And you never answered my non-hypothetical question...

You call Annie heartless given the people she helped?

[barbaraann]

38. Business transactions are heartless.

They may be moral, ethical, and legal, but they are heartless.

[benburch]

40. So, when I sell somebody a book (which I do) I am being heartless???

That is an odd definition that I am not at all sure makes any sense whatsoever!

[barbaraann]

45. Well, yeah. It's a heartless transaction.

If the person doesn't give you money, they don't get the book.

Barnes and Noble is heartless. They will sell you a book but they won't let you have it for free even if you say you will die without it.

[TorchTheWitch]

80. and how is that the fault of the sex worker?

Oh, I know... blame the "other woman". Obviously, whoever the guy was that fiddled with a sex worker had nothing whatsoever to do with it. That woman just picked him out of the phonebook and forced him to hand over his cash while his dick miraculously leaped out of his pants of it's own free will, and he could do absolutely nothing to keep it from happening. Yesirree, that woman must have performed some kind of hokus pokus voodoo on that dude since he was entirely innocent and completely helpless once that woman trained her evil sex worker eyes on him. I can see it now... she chased him down while he ran screaming from her, but her evil powers overcame him, she spinkled pixie dust on him and his wallet and his dick just flew out of his pants completely against his will.

When are you ever going to accept the fact that HE went looking for HER?

[leanin_green]

98. You sound like my wife. And that ain't a compliment.

She's so screwed up sexually and unwilling to do anything about it, what is a husband supposed to do with a healthly libido? According to her, even masturbation is like cheating. This, from a person that doesn't even know their own body and isn't willing to explore it with her own husband. It's people like this that create a place for sex workers in the first place.

To be honest, having a good phone sex relationship has probably helped me stay with my wife. I still love her and want her to be with ME!!! I'm just sad she doesn't join me in some of my more playful endeavors. I'd rather call her, ya know?

[banjosareunderrated]

99. wtf does that have to with the strippers or hookers?

It has everything to do with those that spent the money on your so-called destroyers. Are you saying that a sudden influx of wealth leads to cheating?!?

Or are you implying that men/women simply cannot control themselves and aren't responsible for their choices? That is so condescending. The sex workers don't destroy families, the relationships within said families do. The sex worker stuff is ancillary.

People with money to burn are either faithful or not. To blame the sellers of sex for a mate's infidelity is denial with ego.

[mattclearing]

103. You blame the sex worker for that?

It takes two to tango. Sex workers don't exclusively prey on married individuals.

How about assigning some rightful blame to the adulterer?

We don't blame gun companies for individual murders...we blame the people who commit them.

Now sometimes marketing is predatory, but people have a choice whether or not to engage in activities that are harmful to themselves and others, and deserve the bulk of the accountability for it.

[The Straight Story]

73. Can you get me a discount? :)

Sorry, just had to inject some humor into the thread :)

[benburch]

92. Heck I wouldn't get a discount!

Not that I have ever asked! I am a rights advocate, not a customer, except for the occasional bit of porn.

[im10ashus]

85. Good for you for saying as much.

I was thinking the same thing. I think it's a shame the woman got all pissy, but we can't lump all people of the trade into the same category.

[frictionlessO]

23. Well thanks! Glad to know Im heartless or was as the case may be...

Your broad brush would've been nice to spank a client with.

[barbaraann]

25. Don't tell me you aren't heartless, tell the spouses of your clients.

Let me know what they say when you do.

[benburch]

31. As we see in your replies above...

you are unwilling to accept sexwork EVEN when the spouses of the clients DO consent.

You seem to be unwilling to accept sexworkers even under the conditions you yourself just set.

Is your problem a problem with promiscuous people in general?

What is your personal attitude towards sex? That would go a long way to giving some insight into your problem. And my asking is JUST as snoopy and invasive as the quiz you seem to want me to subject my sex partners to.

[barbaraann]

48. I think promiscuity among unattached people is a fine thing.

With the proper protection, of course.

Hey, I lived through the Sixties! :-)

[CTyankee]

50. a question for you

Do you think a partner who indulges in pornography and masturbation (which is accompanied by fantasy which doesn't involve the partner)is detrimental to the relationship? I'm not on either side in this debate but I was just wondering, given your strong feelings on the subject.

[barbaraann]

54. Yes, I do think porn is trouble and I have posted about that before

and been attacked mercilessly here for that opinion. I've seen a lot in my life and my opinions are based on the things I have seen. I have seen murders, divorces, suicides, near divorces, broken hearts, mended hearts, children abandoned and mistreated, children raised to be fine people, imprisonments, and the whole gamut of what happens to good and bad people and to good people who behave badly. I know the private stories of some famous people and I base my moral judgements are all of the things I have seen and personally experienced. However, I don't know that moral behavior matters when there is fascism and rule by sociopaths, so you may just want to dismiss everything I say as irrelevant. When they herded black people into the Superdome to die, it didn't matter if they had been moral or not, did it? Some of those people were saints and some were sinners, but the only thing that mattered was that the Republicans wanted them to suffer and die.

[mongo]

62. With all due respect barbaraann -

I hope that you look inward for the source of some of your opinions and "morals".

Is there any chance that some of your disdain to-wards sex workers is from anger that you are not "allowed" to feel at your father for his discretions?

You and benburch are at different ends of a spectrum. Truth is, people are unique. Some are very monogamous, some can never be monogamous. And I say that with any value judgment. It's just the way we are.

My only hope is that in the future society allows more outlets for our sexuality so that we can make our commitments with greater knowledge and understanding.

[barbaraann]

65. I love your last sentence.

"My only hope is that in the future society allows more outlets for our sexuality so that we can make our commitments with greater knowledge and understanding."

That will only happen if we can somehow take our government back from the sociopaths.

I'm sure I was influenced by what happened with my father and I understand people are very different. I think the bottom line is that benburch and I both care about other people but disagree about what makes people happy. That's different from the sociopaths running our government who just want to hurt people. I don't think anyone on DU who has a different opinion from me about prostitution wants to hurt people like Bush and his buddies do.

Peace. :-)

[mongo]

69. I'm sure that there are many more issues

that we agree about than disagree.

Peace to you too. :hugs:

[Matariki]

90. you've SEEN murders?!?!

more than ONE?

[frictionlessO]

53. BWAH! *BIG GRINS*

You so have no idea what you are talking about! You just made me laugh very loudly, my wife asked why and I told her. Shes the one who said you have no idea what you are talking about BTW.

I even went through all your responses on this thread... I find it sad that a progressive thinks that a sex worker shoulders the bulk of the blame for every break up since the dawn of time (yes I know you didn't say that but your tone speaks volumes here).

In return I must say I think you have a total lack of empathy and regard for anyone who obviously doesn't meet your having a heart standard. Which seems to be on top of a rather large and high horse.

Your anecdotal evidence might be sufficient for your own experience and highly judgmental attitude but that has never in the entire history of humankind made any single person right. You might want to go and get to know a goodly amount of sex workers (though in your head you probably think of 'em as "fuckin' whores" or some such derogatory name), before calling an entire segment of people heartless in regards to the fulfillment of consensual sexual appetites. That is not in any way shape or form a progressive manner to discuss what you know now to be fellow DU'ers.

If you wish to insult me any further have at it, in the meantime most who read this will be thinking that you do not know where from you speak.
This by the way is pretty fucking heartless on your part.

sincerely,
a sacred whore.

[barbaraann]

56. Well, let's look at the issue in perspective.

If we have passed the point of no return with regard to Global Warming and fascism, perhaps we are both wrong. Perhaps we need to think about how we're going to spend our last few months or years of bearable weather and freedom...

I'm still fighting but the thread about Global Warming and the brazenness of Bush's plans for New Orleans have me pretty stunned tonight. If the BFEE has its way, there won't be any free love or prostitution, just hard labor and suffering.

[frictionlessO]

57. Now that I will agree with you no end on and fight with you side by side

on as well.

Can we call this off a bit and be friends again?:toast:

[barbaraann]

59. Yes!

You brought tears to my eyes--the bottom line is that even though we have some pretty strong disagreements we are all humans who care about each other, unlike the sociopaths we are fighting.

Friends again. :toast:

[frictionlessO]

61. Now thats grand....

and really the point we both needed to make.

Thank you Barbara, tears too.:hug:

[barbaraann]

63. Now I started crying again!

Geez. :hug:

[CTyankee]

68. Hey, Barbaraann

don't cry. At least we have feelings, we're human. I can't imagine being a human being as cold and mean as the woman on the Katrina sex line. She must have had a terrible life and now she just hates.

But I have another question, if you will indulge me, please. Is there "good" porn. I mean, is there sexually suggestive material that meets a standard of non-exploiting yet still sexually stimulating material that exists. My own personal objection to porn is the exploitiveness. I think there probably is an alternative. We humans are sexual beings and we have brains with imaginations. Must everything imaginative sexually be exploitive of our partners?

I don't know. What do you think?

[barbaraann]

70. Hmm....

I hope this doesn't sound evasive, but the only thing I can think is that if we have enough goodness in ourselves and our society the question would not need to be asked and that if a society is rotten then there would be no good answer.

It might sound Pollyannaish but it's the only answer I have. I don't think the questions of prostitution and pornography can be separated from the society they exist in and the state of our planet. Unfortunately, I think a lot of good in society in history has come from parenting and extended families and thinking about future generations and now our planet is overpopulated and environmentally damaged so that's problematical.

And also, there is virtual reality so porn could be produced without people.

I have to go now but I'll check back with this thread later.

[mongo]

72. Porn without people is Anime....

and as far as that genre goes, it tends to be more violent than the usual fare.

Seriously though,

I hope this doesn't sound evasive, but the only thing I can think is that if we have enough goodness in ourselves and our society the question would not need to be asked and that if a society is rotten then there would be no good answer.

It might sound Pollyannaish but it's the only answer I have. I don't think the questions of prostitution and pornography can be separated from the society they exist in and the state of our planet.

My comment to this is how you have framed the question as whether it is right or wrong. This is where we disagree.

We (progressives anyway) don't frame homosexuality in terms of right and wrong. We accept it exists, without value judgements, and we focus our energies on justice, individual rights and harm reduction. Can we look at prostitution in the same light?

[barbaraann]

78. Well.....

let's try to eliminate war, social and economic injustice, exploitation, and fascism and see what happens. :-)

And I'd like to see the double standard eliminated, too.

[Cats Against Frist]

108. Hi mongo.

I disagree. I think that part of the social cost of being able to practice certain things (i.e. drug use/sale, prostitution, unregulated pornography, etc.) mandates that the way that they should keep from overtaking our society is precisely that value judgments should be made.

For instance, if I think people should be free to do drugs, but that I don't agree with them, and think they make people stupid, I don't allow anyone to do them in my home, or on my property. I don't have to associate with people who take drugs, and I don't have to hire a drug addict, and I don't have to be friends with someone who takes drugs, etc. -- I think people take "tolerance" into thought control. To me, "tolerance" specifically means to live and let live -- meaning that the person should get to live without someone telling them that they cannot do something. I don't think it means, that me, as a private citizen, cannot make value judgments, and choose my associates, accordingly.

I would fight to give the right to a sex worker to do what he/she does, and I'm against government interference in pornography, drugs, etc. -- but to me, that means that I GET TO MAKE value judgments, at my own discretion. If not, it's thought control, and the right wing has every right to complain about that bullshit, even though they're just as bad. People should let people live freely and peacefully. They don't have to "tolerate" everything, or construct a value system that gains some busy-body seal of approval. I think that wingnuts would understand a lot more of our points, if this was the focus, not a blanket acceptance of everything under the sun.


*oh, and BTW, I'm not that harsh with drug users. I have plenty of friends who are drug users, and I used to do a lot of drugs. However, I think some of them make the mind and the creative mind apathetic, and can cause a ton of social problems. I get to believe that, because I'm a free American.

[mongo]

110. I don't think that I was advocating thought control...

I was just trying to re-frame the argument without the value judgments.

You may not be for government interference in private affairs, but there certainly is a large contingent of Americans who would impose their value judgments on other peoples behavior - with the full force of the law.

Isn't teaching Intelligent Design in schools based on a value judgment? The idea that the Bible is good, and anything that is contrary to the Bible bad and needs to be at least questioned? Evolution is sound science but because of the value judgment of the few, intelligent design has to be taught along side of it.

I think that is where using value judgments to address social issues leads us.

And yes, we are free to disagree and that is a good thing.

[mongo]

71. Try some Candida Royalle

Female ex-performer, now director with her own company.

Also, the biggest companies - Wicked, Vivid and Adam & Eve produce some rather couple-friendly fare.

Adam & Eve even has a team of psychologists review their movies to verify that they are not "degrading".

Not to sure what that means though, as it is a totally subjective observation. Some people would find any explicit movie "exploitive".

[The Straight Story]

74. I tend to have a few too many beers here and there

Not the fault of the beer drive-thru that sells it to me. It is of interest to note though that bars can be liable if they serve someone too much though.

I think the key word in all this, some may say, is 'enabler'. Sex workers (and bookies, bars, et al) enable something to occur which generally is associated with a negative (gambling addiction, alcoholism, etc and so on) in a more easy way then if they were not in business to enable the actions. People would still do things but when the effort becomes too much many will just give it up or curb it significantly (example, if you lived in the middle of a dry state and had to drive 200 miles just to get a six pack you may just give it up except for special occassions).

Now the question becomes - is it moral to be an enabler? From selling smokes to beer to sex. If we think it is immoral we then cannot understand why someone else would enable such things in a direct manner.

To me, from a christian perspective, the goal would not be to shut down adult stores, phone workers, bars, etc - it would be to change the hearts and minds of the people that use them so that they no longer desire to. It is easier to target the few enablers then the many that use them though. So some people take the easy way out and picket and such.

My morality is not to shut down or whine too much about people that enable, I want them to have the same freedoms in life the lord gave me. Changing minds is a more permanent method of solving the problem.

[barbaraann]

76. I don't want to shut anything down either.

"To me, from a christian perspective, the goal would not be to shut down adult stores, phone workers, bars, etc - it would be to change the hearts and minds of the people that use them so that they no longer desire to. It is easier to target the few enablers then the many that use them though. So some people take the easy way out and picket and such."

That seems like a reasonable and compassionate approach. Some places have a "John School" which tries to educate customers about prostitution and prostitutes: http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/police/investigation/ViceDrugs/pop.htm

[mongo]

84. So I'm a fucking enabler?

I'll tell what I do. I sell a little excitement. A new toy or a movie for a couple. A sexy outfit to boast some ladies self-esteem just a tad. Some masturbatory material for lonely guys - or is masturbation "morally" wrong too?

Mostly what I sell is the idea that a couple is getting something new and different to spice up their love life - and sometimes that's exactly what they get.

You seem to find something negative in that. Like it is wrong to watch two people have sex on screen, or to use a toy in bed. I hope you don't watch any R rated movies either - or is simulated sex OK, just not the real thing?

The only minds that need to be changed are those that cling to some idealist notions about sex. Sex is far more complicated than that, and there is no right and wrong about it. There is only difference.

[The Straight Story]

87. Um, I was talking in a general manner

I am not saying it is right or wrong. McDonalds could be considered an enabler of overweight issues. Does not make them wrong, they enable people to more easily do something they want to anyway.

My point in all this was (to some extent) it is not right or wrong, it is a service that enables people to do something and without that service in place people would do such things in less numbers as the product would be harder to get.

*IF* someone thinks something is wrong they often attack one of two things (sometimes more): the person providing the service or the person using it. 'Enabler' is not a bad thing, it is figure of speech to draw a difference between roles.

Wal-Mart might be a good example of what some would see as an enabler for chinese slave labor and hurting local business - but people still go there in droves. So if you (or someone else) thought the end results were bad would you blame wal-mart or the people that go there, both of course could be 'blamed' but which one would most groups target if they felt the end results were wrong? That was also part of my point.

[The Straight Story]

89. And PS

I have shopped a lot at Lion's den, an adult store here in Columbus. Been there enough I should have a frequent fucker card :) so no, I don't see it as something wrong...

[mongo]

91. My apologies then.

I guess I took your post wrong. Opps, my bad - touchy subject for me.

You should come out here to Zanesville, or shop at the Garden on high st in Columbus or the store down on Alum Creek, which for the life I me I can't remember the name.

Not to bash Lion's den too much, but they are a huge (for adult) chain in 10 (I think) states now.

They pay 40% less for every product they sell, yet somehow I match their prices most of the time, or sometimes I'm even a little bit less.

We did some corp. espionage at the Lion's Den in Newark before we opened, so we reverse engineered their markup. When we went back a year after we had opened, they had dropped the price on a bunch of items.

[The Straight Story]

95. Sweet!

Will check it out. Lion's den is somewhat crappy as they don't offer as much at some stores as others so I end up having to go to several ones sometimes.

My roots are in Byesville, not too far from Zanesville and I hope to be heading out there again soon to grab a chili dog Orr's Drive in and see some relatives.

[TorchTheWitch]

79. Stereotype much?

That's ok, I'm used to your constant bashing of sex workers. And I've yet to encounter one single woman that does who does it for any other reason then the fear that her SO is paying for it behind her back.

Supply and demand, honey. If there was no great demand for it, it wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar industry. But go ahead and blame the workers... obviously it's easier for you to blame the "other woman" then trying to wrap your head around the fact that all those married horny men are looking for us with fistfuls of cash they could be buying things for their wives and kids with, not the other way around.

Oh, by the way, what's the difference between a sex worker and some woman cruising for a new man for free? You know, like all those ladies in the single's bars shopping for a man whether or not those men already have wives? Sex workers don't want the man, they just want to get paid for a service rendered. Kind of makes one wonder why you aren't nearly so boistrous about bashing "husband stealers" who don't get paid... as if you're more interested in what's in your husband's wallet than what's in his pants and his heart.

[Cats Against Frist]

106. If you can't take the heat, get out of the hotel room bed

Barbara has every right to think what she thinks. She, as far as I've seen, hasn't advocated for the government, rounding y'all up and throwing you in jail with the rest of the crack whores. You get to do what you do, no matter how it damages people, destroys families, perpetuates narratives of inequality or contributes to human objectification and the human as capital.

The "free sex" people are just as fucking bad as the "sex for procreation" people -- you're attaching a broad narrative to a singular act that can have myriad reasons, implications, outcomes, etc. The image of a blonde, pre-teen with a shaved cooter and a dick in her asshole is THE quintessential pornography narrative. I don't care how you want to rationalize it. Almost all of the sex industry is for a narrative that I happen to think is just tasteless and trashy.

And I have every right to think that, as a sex worker has to spread her legs, or bare her bald cooter, so she can be an objectified stand-in for the kind of good life that could fill up the sick void of sadness that makes people seek out a random body as a cum receptacle.

[brainshrub]

83. I have to disagree.

While I don't use the services of sex-workers, I think it's an honorable profession that wouldn't be so exploitive if it were legalized.

Giving people orgasms brings more joy into the world than building bombs. If people cheat on their partners, that's not the fault of the sex-worker, anymore than McDonalds is responsible for you cheating on your diet.

[mongo]

86. Can I have an AMEN?

Well said. We've been waiting for re-inforcements.

See ya next weekend!

[NYCGirl]

93. Amen, Brother Mongo! And preach it, Brainshrub! Great post. NT

[benburch]

94. AMEN, Brother!

AMEN!

[Modem Butterfly]

115. Oh, I don't think so

I was a phone sex worker in the early 90's. I didn't do it very long; it was a summer job for me while I was in college. Most of the men I spoke to really just wanted a sympathetic ear. One guy talked at length about the place he and his wife both shared; he knew the owner was taking bribes, but the owner was married to his wife's step-sister and he was concerned that confrontation would hurt his wife's family and ultimately his own. Of course, there were a large number of horny men as well, but aren't they all?

[benburch]

3. Most of my friends who have been phone sex workers...

were Liberals, and would have been much nicer than this! But most did not own the numbers they worked on, but rather, worked through agencies that fed dozens of different numbers to them.

[pitohui]

4. let me tell you a secret

she is not in louisiana any more than she is a six foot blonde swede with 36 inch hips

look you'd be grouchy too if you were trying to make a living & you kept getting misdirected calls

if you had a flare for telephone drama, abd if you were a not very nice person to start w., yeah, you might use that flare to fuck w. somebody after you got enough misdirected calls

on edit- as benburch points out the ppl i've known in this field have worked out of their house at numbers somehow re-routed to them, but the ones i've known, it didn't last long, maybe a month or so until they figured out they weren't actually going to get paid

so yeah, there is stress

[progressivebydesign]

6. I'll bet you're right. What would the odds be that she'd be in Louisiana?

Too perfect for her. She sounds like a right wing idiot, just the type that would own a sex line. The workers might be liberal, as some have asserted here, but that woman owned it and sounded incredibly coldhearted and rude.

[CTyankee]

14. No, she wasn't the owner, just a contracted worker

and she said that she couldn't speak for the owner. Al asked her if she would ask the owner if he/she would donate the number. That seemed to set her off on her tirade.

Also, I think it is possible she IS in Louisiana. It's one thing to say that to a client you are cultivating so that he would come back for more, but she had no reason to humor Al Franken after he told her what she wanted. I think she saw a chance to make a political (and probably racist)harangue and let it fly.

[pitohui]

17. well again i doubt she does live here

reason--when ppl i know tried this, they didn't get paid

i'm sure there are phone sex workers who do get paid in areas where they can file civil suits aga. the business owner, in other words, if they live in the same jurisdiction as the business owner

but the rural lady in louisiana or whatever gets the calls but never gets the checks

i know several ppl this happened to so i'm just saying

the odds are if it isn't her first couple weeks at work, she is in cali or something, sorry

[SOS]

107. I think she was in Louisianna

She said her favorite radio show was "Walton and Johnson".
http://www.waltonandjohnson.com/index2.html
Outside the New Orleans area they are mercifully unknown.

[benburch]

52. The good services do pay.

You can clear around $15 an hour most of the time with the good ones.

[pitohui]

66. yeah but the problem being this

you don't know who the good services are if you're not really in the community

for some reason a group of my friends who really did have a strong need thought they could do this from rural louisiana


they wouldn't have any way to know who paid & who doesn't pay, would they, and their experiences were v. bad

porn is a community, i think, where you need to really be in that community to know who the good guys are

[cmf]

5. It made me sad, too.

And it made me sadder to know that there are a lot of people down there who feel the same way. My friend was visiting with her in-laws down in Arkansas Labor Day weekend, and you wouldn't believe what came out of their mouths regarding the hurricane victims. Remember that people were still stranded at the Superdome at the time. Stuff like "They should just be patient" and "If they weren't screaming and carrying on, then maybe people would be more inclined to help them." Zero empathy for those affected by Katrina. My friend's head nearly exploded having to deal with hearing that stuff all weekend. She tried to set them straight, but they are set in their beliefs. Her husband is a nice guy, but his family is a bunch of Republican a-holes.

[loudsue]

55. Hmmm. I know just who you're talking about.

Know them well. My head explodes on a regular basis.

Even if they aren't the SAME family your friend visited, I, too, was around someone's in-laws who are extreme right wingers in Arkansas, over Labor Day.

:puke:

:kick:

[AmandaRuth]

10. yeah, i heard that and was disgusted to revulsion

at her attitude. It made me want to call 1-800-Katrina and pay the charge for 10 mins just to tell her a few things, like boosh reductions of wages, and a good number of jobs in NOLA are in the service industry paying min wage like someone making $5.00 an hour will make maybe $700 a month. Try living off of that, not to mention rebuilding your life.

Not to mention the tax breaks the oil industry gets and the outrageous executive pay these days.

So why is she not offended by an executives wife whose husband makes, what 1000 times an average worker, in an industry getting tax breaks that are bankrupting the country, buying a designer dress - oh wait hate radio doesn't talk about that.

[CTyankee]

16. You're right. Doesn't this prove what Thomas Frank said

in "What's the Matter with Kansas"? She's making lousy wages in a job not held in much esteem by the rest of her society so she in turn hates the people whom she considers "lower" than herself. That's the pathology at work here!

[tnlefty]

39. 'This hurricane has been way overblown'

Yeah, talk about vile and hateful. I am disgusted to realize that I inhabit the same planet with these people. They're in my neighborhood, community, etc., and it gets depressing at times.

[AndreaCG]

19. I'd like to find a legal way to fuck her over

But have no idea how to. I sure wouldn't pay her anything.

[mntleo2]

26. I LOVE Al !!!

I think Al is asking some good questions. he has credible people on his show and he is intelligent ~ something I know many Americans cannot stand, lol. Intelligence is *not* one of the things we are noted for now days now is it? LOL!

As for sex workers, hey it is an honest living, I have no problem with that, but then I refuse to ever marry or commit again (been there, done that) and I am happy just loving the one I am with, lol. If he wanted to talk to a pretend Swedish Blondie with a whispery voice and jack off while he is doing it, well so be it, sheesh. Just don't charge it on MY credit, lol! A phone conversation does not "prove" a person loves you or does not. If it did prove that, then I am better off without them anyway because the whole relationship is just a big fake. Better to know that now than later... No sex worker is to blame about people being too afraid to communicate with one another and be honest about what they want. If you are afraid to be vulnerable with the one you supposedly love, then you both have some issues right there, IMO. So it is the people involved who are the ones who need to take a look at things, IMO.

The same if my partner were to "visit" someone else, well my main concern is that I would not want them to give me some disease, and yes why did they have to go there rather than come to me? I would want my partner to feel comfortable enough to TALK to me about what they are missing, and if they could not and had to talk to some stranger on the phone, well I think I would need to examine myself, him and the relationship I had with my partner, I could not blame some phone-sex worker. But then I am different I guess. Like, I just don't need no stinking piece of paper to make me feel like someone loves me more than anyone else. It is all paper, nothing else, IMO. The *only* reason for that piece of paper IMO is so you can convince some idealistic idiot, your partner wants YOU to inherit and YOU to make the decisions they could not trust anyone else to do right. This is only because stupid people think pieces of paper matter, and they happen to rule the roost right now ...

ANYWAYS...I had to leave when Al was still on "hold" (BTW, that music was HILARIOUS) and it looks like I missed some good radio. I wonder what Al had to say to this idiot. As for the woman in "LA" or wherever she was, people like her are heartless pigs, IMO. They ought to all go to that right wing "haven" they want to set up in NC and stay in their ugly little cabal. Then they can impose their little wills on each other and "make" people do what they want all they want, and it would not affect the rest of us who could care less about their puny little myopic lily-white worlds.

Better yet, I think all the blue states should seriously consider seceding to Canada. We would immediately have health care, not be in a stupid war, be able to marry whom we wanted if we wanted, and get away from the embarrassment of these disgusting people we have to accept as "one of us". Buh-bye!!! They are *not* part of ME (thank God) and never will be. If we do not get away from them and if we happen to think and believe different than they do, well we might as well be in a foreign country anyway...I would gladly be Canadian, now if I could only just convince others how wise it is to, "brush the dust off our feet and LEAVE this town..." (Jesus' quote, when he spoke of his disciples being rejected)! I am positive Canada would be glad to have the resources, the infrastructure already in place, and our wealth, since the blue states would be taking most of it all with us. Let those ignoramuses live in their filth. Let them HAVE their damn flag, let THEm get out there and fight in their meaningless war that they could no longer send others, let them keep their wing-nut paper-headed judges and let them try to live by their ridiculous tenets, and let them kneel before their hypocritical preachers who do not pray in the closet as Jesus told them to do, but sure hide a whole lot of other filthy, greed headed things in there!

Oh yeah! O Canada!!!!!!!


My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle <----full of random thoughts today...

Edited for clarity

[UTUSN]

27. Oh. THAT Sex Worker. I Though O'LOOFAH Had Called-in n/t

[Bucky]

36. Now you know why they call it a "Red State"

Anger.

[OxQQme]

51. Lest any forget,

this country was assimilated by Puritans who left their country, either forcibly or voluntarily, depending on POV. Manifest Destiny is still alive in many shapes and colors. Spread "The Message" !!!!!!

[pitohui]

67. is louisiana a red state

we have a dem governor, a dem senator, and if breaux had not given up the job, we'd have two dem senators

this is why the mad chimpy rush to shit on us

no puritans settled here, this is catholic country

[AspenRose]

47. There were a couple of threads on it yesterday

Very obvious to see how the GOP has fortified the wedge between white working poor and black working poor, based on her comments (and assuming she was white).

[AX10]

75. The "Adult Entertainment" "industry" is EASY MONEY.

...and a ton of it is made. The Prostiutes :puke: in Las Vegas backed Bush twice because they wanted there precious tax cuts. :eyes:

They are piggies, PERIOD!

[benburch]

77. Can you document that?

I run a major international mailing list for sexworkers and sexworkers rights activists, and I don't know of one who supported Bush even once.

Nina Hartley, foe example, is a lifelong socialist.

And the sex industry is NOT "easy money" it is hard work for less money than you imagine.

[mongo]

96. Easy money

yeah. That's why my wife and I are at this store 50-60 hours/week every week for less than min wage and no health insur.

I don't have to hustle nearly as hard as the poor dancers in this town. They work hard for the money. Not to mention the health issues around wearing 8 inch heels all night long.

And, as far a prostitutes go - $20.00 around the corner from me will get you full sex. Just enough for their next rock.

And yeah, adult performers in Ca. get paid good money. They work pretty fucking hard too. Ever seen a behind the scenes shoot? You try looking pretty under those lights. Or putting a 16oz pop bottle in your rear in the back seat of some car to losen yourself up for a scene.

[omega minimo]

97. LOOK AT THE ANATOMY OF THIS THREAD!

How many here actually heard the bit on Franken's show?

I ask because I didn't hear her 'turn mean and nasty." She was not "vituperative and filled with hate and loathing for the hurricane victims."

She was straightforward and up front about what she thought, which she had a right to be. We know these attitudes exist. The attitude may be obnoxious, but she wasn't "mean and nasty" or the rest of the OP's description.

Is this an example of when a man expresses himself, he's opinionated-- when a woman expresses herself, she's a bitch?

Her attitude sounded like a typical, self-centered, boneheaded, Republican response-- she was unapologetic. If she had been a man, this OP story would have been told differently.

[mongo]

100. DU is an equal opportunity basher

when it comes to insensitive, hateful remarks.

Now I see that for the republicans to win the '08 election, all they have to do is offer a woman for president - after all, if you say anything negative about a woman, you're bashing ALL women.

Another interesting fun fact about this thread is that no one used the word bitch - except you.

Hmmmm.....

[omega minimo]

101. Distorted portrayal of what she said engendered this titillating thread

enabled by your trademark distortions, not worth responding to.

(btw, I had enough courtesy toward you to not post my response to your "it's hard work" post, which was :rofl: )

[mongo]

104. Trademark distortions?

You should know, as you are the master of the art.

If you would like to seem some "engendered" threads, here ya go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4801891&mesg_id=4805052

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4789965&mesg_id=4790065

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4806325&mesg_id=4806378

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4800218&mesg_id=4800246

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4794626&mesg_id=4794708

I could go on and on with this.

[CTyankee]

102. Well, I'm the OP and I've worked for women's rights

throughout my 32 year career and there is no way I called her a bitch. I don't use the word myself because of the misogynist undertone.

Sorry, I don't agree with you on her attitude. Maybe we heard two different programs but the one I heard left no doubt in my mind that she was a nasty piece of work. After seeing those photos out of New Orleans, to say what she said was just outrageous and yes, mean and nasty. "Boneheaded" is what republicans are when they talk about Bush's tax cuts for the rich and Social Security "reform."

[SOS]

109. If a man had said

that (black) hurricane victims won't get a nickel from him, that the victims are getting too much assistance, that his favorite radio show was Walton and Johnson, that the victims were using their assistance to buy designer handbags, that the victims were getting more than him, that he pays enough in tax and wouldn't lift a finger to help....

I don't think we'd call him "opinionated".
A slew of other nouns and adjectives come to mind, but "opinionated" isn't one of them.

Male or female, this person's comments were indeed mean, viuperative, nasty and heartless.
"Straightforward" barely applies here other than to state the style of her delivery. And she clearly hates blacks which is a revolting trait regardless of gender.

[omega minimo]

111. That was my point

""Straightforward" barely applies here other than to state the style of her delivery."

And we're in agreement:

"Male or female, this person's comments were indeed mean, viuperative, nasty and heartless."

The OP seemed to say that her manner was mean and nasty, vituperative, etc. which it wasn't IMHO. To me, it sounded like the person could have been talking about the $500gazillion bridge in Alaska or any other thing she didn't feel like contributing voluntarily to, because she already paid her taxes. It was ignorant and insensitve and I'll bet a lot of Americans feel that way.

I didn't hear this tho:

"And she clearly hates blacks which is a revolting trait regardless of gender."

We could infer from her insensitivity but it wasn't stated.

To me what was striking WAS how low-key and unemotional her comments were-- plain and simple, she pays her taxes and SHE IS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT AS A THE RESULT OF THOSE TAXES, EMERGENCY RELIEF IS COVERED.

That's what we all thought :evilfrown:

[CTyankee]

112. No, I meant her words were mean and nasty

Her demeanor changed, yes, from her sexy voice. She snapped to, as it were, into her ideological hate speech. Yes, I call it hate speech, all the worse because, as you say, she was ostensibly cool. I think this must be the only way someone in her political mindset can respond to decent humanity. I guess the REpublicans have destroyed the real compassion gene in their followers. This was a good example of it.

[omega minimo]

113. Understood. Thank you

Yes, the REpublicans have destroyed the real compassion gene in their followers. This was a good example of it."

She may not even have been born when they started destroying it.

[Modem Butterfly]

114. I was a phone sex operator in the early 90's

I worked for a place called SimTel communications in Reno, NV one summer. The job paid well, about $10 an hour. I lived with relatives over the summer and I used to money to pay for college. In that job, I met a lot of women who had been, or were at the time, working as other kinds of sex workers, such as strippers and prostitution. I also met women who had "straight" jobs and did that to make ends meet.

Phone sex operators are like anyone; there's a whole range of opinions and habits of expression.