Tommy Friedman is angry that Bush hasn't started drafting our kids for Iraq

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/12864305.htm

<snip>The president's speech on terrorism Thursday was excellent. He made clear, better than ever, why winning in Iraq is so important to the wider struggle against Islamo-fascism. But it only makes me that much more angry that he fought this war as though it would be easy -- never asking for any sacrifice, any military draft, any tax hikes or any gasoline tax -- and that he tolerated so much incompetence along the way.


THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN is a New York Times columnist.

[leftchick]

1. friedman has two teenage daughters

I am sure they will be signing up when they turn eighteen. Right Tom??

[wtmusic]

47. or course not

wardrum-beaters are 100% committed to fighting to the last drop of blood from anyone else's family

[McCamy Taylor]

58. The courts will force girls to register, too, for non-combat jobs.

And we all know that non-combat jobs in Iraq are just as lethal as front line jobs, sometimes more so cause they dont give you any body armor.

[NNN0LHI]

66. Wonder why NOW or other womens group isn't already in the courts...

...demanding that women must register as men have had to for over 20 years? Probably just slipped their mind.

Don

[oldcoot]

137. They fought for the ERA

Had the ERA been ratified, women probably would have been required to register for the draft along with men. Indeed, the fact that women might be drafted if the ERA was ratified was one of the arguments that conservatives used to defeat it.

[NNN0LHI]

168. Anyone could sue and get this into the courts if they really wanted to

I don't think anyone really wants to. I know I don't want to. But to suggest that women will be drafted if one begins when they don't have to even register I think is a misnomer.

Don

[goddess40]

120. We need to up the age from 18 to 21

At 18 we don't let 'kids' have the choice to drink Alcohol - which is because the brain is still developing and it's the correct thing to do. Since we now know the brain is still developing until the age of 21 we should restrict 'kids' from signing documents that call for life and death situations too.

[Javaman]

131. They will never raise the age, in fact they will probably lower it...

The older someone is when inducted, the harder it is to train them. If you think they have a drop off in recruiting now, if it was 21, the numbers would drop dramatically.

[pretzel4gore]

2. friedman is a traitor, and needs his day in court,

and his night on death row.

[bryant69]

8. That's bullshit

We don't execute people for expressing an opinion different than us.

Where do we stop, if that's your opinion?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[pretzel4gore]

37. friedman's a secret agent of some kind...

he has been spreading disinfo for years....he's in a class war agsinst us, and he would gladly have you/us killed if that was convenient....you think 'law'n'order' are the rule, but the busheviks, hiding behind limbah-humbug, owhorelly, friedman, woodward, brite hum of foxnews, cnnt goofs, nbc, abc, cbs, reuters, ap and so on ad nazism for as far as the eye can see.....yes, friedman should be arrested, convicted and shot because his type are committed to the establishment of a fascist dictatorship (pretending it's not that) and destroying press freedom in that service....your solution is to argue with friedman, convince him truth is otherwise, when you know damn well he cares naught about the truth and he'll have us all killed if he has any say in our fates.....

[bryant69]

42. Boy you really are living in fantasy land aren't you

Any evidence for this bizarre theory? Or just "Bush is evil and will stop and nothing and anybody who denies it is a fascist enabler."

But then for your sort, I guess that's probably enough.

Edited to add - Course now that I am defending him, I suppose you are forced to conclude I must be as bloodthirsty as he is, no?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[The Stranger]

56. Then tell us: why are you defending him?

[bryant69]

61. I guess because I believe in free expression

When I see unsubstantiated allegations calling for the murder of someone for speaking their mind, whether I agree with them or not, I'm inclined to defend them. That's just me.

[The Stranger]

67. Actually, it appears that the poster called for "his day in court."

You changed what the poster was calling for, saying instead that it was murder.

[tx_dem41]

75. Psstt...reading beyond subject lines can be your friend. n/t

[bryant69]

77. Yes

Assuming you mean reading beyond subject lines I'd agree with you. He pretty clearly called for friedman to spend a night on death row.

[The Stranger]

100. Oh -- you're so cute -- you're ignoring the "conviction" part.

But why are you reading things into posts and going out of your way to defend Friedman? One more time.

[tx_dem41]

108. There you go with the twisted logic again....

I'm defending the Constitution...something you obviously care nothing about.

[pattim]

159. Oh, really? Here would be the post you're referring to.

"and his night on death row."

[tx_dem41]

64. Well...using the same tortured logic you do....

why are you supporting the execution of Thomas Friedman?

[bryant69]

78. What do you mean?

[tx_dem41]

83. That was in response to The Stranger's post. n/t

[pretzel4gore]

71. the proof is what's happened to our world

i read tom friedman's 'from beirut to jerusalem' many years ago....friedman travelled extensively through arab lands and reported what happened (tom's a zionist, of course)...friedman mentioned that mordecai vanuunu did israel a favour: by telling the world israel had nuclear weapons (and letting israel officially tut tut such 'nonsense') vanuunu acted like a agent of mossad, and served israel wonderfully, w/out meaning to, of course. This little vignette said alot about friedman. It said he knew israel had nuclear weapons and thought that was fine, while also saying israel had no need to sign any non proliferation treaty etc if it lied and denied having nukes, which israel still does today....then friedmean went further, and said a young idealistic israeli like vanuunu, who exposed israel's nuclear ability because vanuunu thought the israel government acted like bully nazis and lied to everybody including the israeli people, and hated that enough to risk everything in an effort to force israel to be the decent country it is...well, friedman thought kidnapping and jailing mordecai for life was good, while mordecai's 'treason' was good too, cuz israel gets to have the kaka and eat it too ....
i recoil from boors with the nastycrude ability to hurt scholars too, but it seems it's our scholars who've been terrorised for 2 generations now, see jfk, malcolm x, rfk, martin king, patrice lumumba, senator wellstone etc and allan berg...allan berg was a hero of mine, and, if i got my hands on the men who murdered allan, i'd treat them the same as a punk like friedman...

[bryant69]

81. I'm not saying that Friedman is a nice guy

I don't have the same deep seated hatred of him that you apparently do, and I think he's gone on supporting the war far past when he should have abandoned said support.

But if you want to execute friedman - how many other right wing pundits desrve their day in court and their short drop and sudden stop?

[pattim]

50. Oh. Dear. God.

:wow:

[Norquist Nemesis]

59. You're giving him way too much power

Secret Agent's a bit over the top.

[tx_dem41]

46. Please....you are either living in your own little world...

or you really know nothing about freedom of the press.

[The Stranger]

57. I seem to recall another from the NY Times recently imprisoned.

What makes you think this is an attack on freedom of speech?

[tx_dem41]

63. For one, I said freedom of the press.

I would call calling for the execution of a journalist because one disagrees with what they write to be an attack on freedom of the press.

Do you agree with the poster that Friedman should be killed?

[The Stranger]

69. You changed what the poster said to suit your purposes.

But, judging from Judith Miller, it appears that reporters are not above the law.

[tx_dem41]

72. "and his night on death row."

Not sure how I changed what the poster said. They were quite clear what they were calling for. I assume you agree?

[pretzel4gore]

90. i just heard coulter saying 'shooting liberals..'

for their fur and stuff.....on jerry springer!
>i agree this is way over the top. but i do believe that friedman etal committed treason, and it was a massive, very well organized and funded plan to defraud the people not only of usa but the entire world. And i'm mad, in the psychological sense, very mad, at them bastards for steering towards the abyss when time is of the essense to go the other way. On a liberal website like DU i'm glad there are 'cool heads' to confront easily proscribed suffering- for-others, but while i expect your ideas/forgiveness toward friedman etc to prevail, i still think treason was committed on a vast scale (i'm not a professional newman, i can't afford nexus, yet i know that the bush government has taken conspiring against the people knowing the facts, to a level that refutes any idea EVER of accountability, and in doing so, have forever ruined the news media, by making it an agency of thieves and traitors..this is vandalism, and the mediawhores know it!) and what's more, i do not think anything but brute force is going to scare the nazipoos enought to stop them from schemeing even more. and while i might be wrong, and you right, if i'm right, and you're wrong(?)...well, iraq will be nothing in terms of wasted time/enegy and life!

[The Stranger]

104. In a time of universal deceit, to speak the truth is a revolutionary act.

Thanks go to Mr. Orwell.

[The Stranger]

102. You're backpedaling.

Now "night on death row" is supposed to be his "murder"?

[tx_dem41]

107. you bet it is...

state-sanctioned in this case.

[pretzel4gore]

121. you don't see treason in friedman's actions?

and remember, friedman has lexus nexus....that means he would be aware that wtc building #7 was demolished by preset explosives....

[tx_dem41]

122. In your CT world....I imagine so.

Respectfully, I couldn't care less about CTs. It distracts from people dealing with real issues and getting real, productive work done. I care about reality.

[The Stranger]

127. You're still back-pedaling.

Capital punishment carries due process, regardless of your position as to whether or not it constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. Ergo, all rhetoric aside, it is not per se murder.

The fact is that the original poster did not call for anyone's murder -- merely their investigation and possible prosecution.

[tx_dem41]

128. If you read other of their posts...

they were calling for an unconstitutional kangaroo court and an execution (Nice euphemism though).

[NNN0LHI]

160. Hi are you guys all still up here? Everything going alright?

:hi:

[JuniperLea]

3. is he old/young enough to enlist?

what about his sons, daughters, nieces or nephews?

if this war was legitimate, i'm sure plenty of our young people would be enlisting in droves.

[Tesibria]

4. legitmate war

isn't that an oxymoron?

[JuniperLea]

10. in my way of thinking, yes

but the world will clearly not come to my way of thinking anytime soon.

i'm saying, if there were truly WMD, valid threats against our country and our 'freedoms'.

i'm speaking in 'their' terms, not my own. i would have hoped that civilization would have evolved beyond this kind of war by now.

[CountDmoney]

5. Friedman is a douche n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

6. "... more angry ...."?

Well, now the Times doesn't even proofread his crap for grammatical errors.

Try "angrier," Tommy, and then let's see your kids sign up.

Another weenie who knows everything about incompetence. How come you didn't make a noise when you saw the incompetence "along the way, " ya weenie?

[LynnTheDem]

7. Friedman, SIGN YOUR KIDS UP...and YOU SIGN UP TOO.

WALK YOUR TALK, little man.

[HughBeaumont]

132. And if you've ever seen him in person . . .

. . . as I did during the "Laura Bush-Sponsored, Hastily Scheduled Book Fair Designed to Minimalize The Impact of the Commie Anti-War Demonstration" on Sept 24th, we're talking Lord Farquaad from Shrek little. He looks like he should be placed atop a wedding cake.

[Richardo]

9. I agree - in fact I've been saying this for years.

If it really *is* a war, fight it like one, Bush you big flaming coward.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpgray]

17. I think you misunderstand Richardo

Bush knows war in Iraq is only sustainable if little to no sacrifice is asked from a majority of Americans. This war isn't even popular when nothing is asked of people.

[Richardo]

19. Bingo.

I don't misunderstand. I'm much like Conyers. If the rich white kids have to serve in combat, if their parents have to pay for it with increases taxes, the war ends much sooner.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. I think you mean Rangel not Conyers.

But I could be wrong. Anyhow your position here is ambiguous. Why don't you disambiguate it by stating your opposition to or support for the 'war on terra' as instantiated in our Iraqi Adventure?

[Richardo]

Yes. Rangel. Working without notes here.

I'm against the 'war'.

[abluelady]

43. I Agree With You

I am totally anti-war and I would try to stop anyone I know from volunteering, but I think if there were a draft, this war would end practically overnight.

There are plenty of middle-class Americans who can't afford to pay their kids' way out of the armed service and their kids would have to go. They would be up in arms.

As has been said, most people are not sacrificing anything by this war. It doesn't effect their lives and they are the people who only speak out when they are effected.

[NNN0LHI]

52. I am middle class...with good medical insurance

Do you think they would get my kids?

Don

[abluelady]

89. I Don't Know

But I know my husband sure as hell was going to VietNam if I wasn't pregnant. At that time, pregnancy got a deferment. We didn't plan it to avoid the draft, but I was lucky.

[NNN0LHI]

111. Are you telling me that your husband applied for a draft defferment...

...during Vietnam and now you think drafting other peoples kids is a good idea? Does your husband feel the same way?

Don

[abluelady]

117. I DON'T BELIEVE IN WAR..PERIOD

I don't believe ina military, altogether. No I don't believe in a draft. But I do believe a draft is the way to stop this war.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Don't give me that. "I agree" does not leave much room for confusion

Fuck Bush, Friedman, and anyone who thinks a draft would get rich white Republicans into combat. Because it won't. It never has and never will.

Don

[Warren Stupidity]

36. Exactly. nt.

[July]

136. Side issue I've brought up before.

What's your view, Don, on rich white antiwar liberals' kids? What if their parents can buy them out of a war they don't believe in?

I don't want any kid, rich or poor, sent to wars like Bush's Iraq debacle. And I would spend my last nickel to keep my own kids out of a war like that. Everyone can't do that, but why wouldn't those who can do it? And is it the same thing as the Republican war hawk parents' buying their kids out? I say war hawks' kids first, regardless of their wealth or lack of it. But those of us who are against the war are AGAINST THE WAR. Why offer up our own kids?

[NNN0LHI]

138. I don't hold it against anyone for not wanting their kids in the military

Rich white antiwar liberals' kids or Republican war hawk parents', it doesn't matter. No 19 year old should be forcibly sent off to die or kill no matter if the kids parents are assholes or not. That is just how I feel about it.

Don

[July]

140. You're right.

I don't really want any kids to go.

I get mad about the hypocrisy of those who cheer the war and don't care if kids get killed, as long as they're not their own. That is a chilling callousness that sickens me. But nobody's kid belongs there.

The money thing -- it isn't fair that the wealthy can use their money to keep kids out, but I would do that if I could, and I will do it if I have to. This isn't World War II, where I might fearfully and reluctanctly tell my kids it was their duty to serve (as their grandfather did).

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. Rich republicans FOUGHT in the front lines in WW II

gosh some of them even paid the ultimate price... Rich Republicans also fought in Korea and some of them even died.

Did some avoid it? Yes, but they served overall because the country expected them to serve... it became a litmus test for politicians, where did you serve during the war?

So don't say they never have or never will. Something critical changed in Vietnam, aka the champagne squadrons, and then Ronnie Raygun finished that change.

[NNN0LHI]

157. Reread my post would you please?

I didn't say rich Republicans never served. I said they don't get drafted. They are only going to serve if they want to. As it should be for everyone. The rich were buying their way out of the Civil War for crying out loud. Google it if you don't believe me.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. During WW II they WERE drafted

they did not volunteer, they were drafted... they served

Many of them even became officer wonders, since they went to the vapor OCS after they said, we have college degree

They were drafted, some even served as EM

They were drafted

It was another era.

[NNN0LHI]

163. If they were drafted its because they wanted to be

Even my dad who was a dirt poor country boy who quit school at 14 knew better to join the Navy before he was drafted into the Army. The guys I know who avoided serving in WW II felt it was their patriotic duty to stay here at home and protect the women folk. They did a great job too I think?

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. You are part of that chnage, why we do not serve

sorry, but this post reveals this.

By the way, on Sept 11 they expected teh recruitment stations to be filled with Patriots, angry at what happened, just as December 7th, Did not happen. (which is good for other reasons), but it ponnts to the death of the United States as a nation, and the willingness to step forwards in the midst of a crisis is a sign that a nation has not died. It started dying in Nam, but now the Me generation is so entrenched that I doubt they would have stepped up in WW II

So do me a favor, enjoy your shopping, please do... no sacrifice, Me, and only me...

What will need to be done to REPAIR the damage taht bush has done will involve incredible ammounts of sacrifice, but I don't think the will is there any more.

[eridani]

169. There is a big difference between self-defense and imperial conquest

WW II was self defense, and everything since has been imperial conquest. People are far more self-sacrificing in the cause of self-defense as opposed to the cause of making their overlords richer.

[Richardo]

18. Not only the draft, I want a tax increase, rationing and conservation of

...raw materials. If it's a war, let's fight it like one. They keep comparing it to WWII. Well, all that stuff was in place in WWII.

Don't you think that if the country had to do all these things that the outcry to leave Iraq would be deafening?

Don't worry, George won't draft your kids or do any of the other stuff. He doesn't have the balls. He'll just kill the volunteers by the twos and threes.

[NNN0LHI]

51. No friend that is not the way things work

The way to end the Iraq occupation is not by starting a draft and giving Bush and his Likud inspired neocon buddies an unlimited supply of the warm bodies they need to continue their dream of Crusades.

When people stop signing up (as they have been) to die or get wounded for Chimpy and his pals this nightmare will be over. That is a promise.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. You sure?

Your pssitive of this.

KEEP SHOPING

Don't worry, the army will be replaced by more and more mercs... But that will be okay, they are only money soldiers (which they are, but that is a whole different story)

Go shop

[goddess40]

11. should atheists be excluded

I know this is off-topic slightly but it was a question that ran through my mind this morning as I was reading an article in the paper. The headline read "Deployments test soldiers' families' strength, faith" and I remembered that * didn't think atheists deserved to be American citizens. So maybe they shouldn't serve either?

[JuniperLea]

13. good point

gay atheists must surely be able to avoid the draft.

[marmar]

12. I'm so tired of this delusional windbag...

Let's send him to Iraq.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Friedman has hit Bush pretty hard lately. And a draft will be needed

as long as Bush continues his grandiose fantasy of ruling the world.

A draft would be political suicide for the party that proposes it. But if there is one, no exemptions - that means all the elite yellow elephant republicans get to send their kids. No more letting the middle and lower class do the dirty work of the Repugs while they say safely at home.

[NNN0LHI]

20. There has never been a draft without exemptions

What you going to draft people with medical problems? Or the ones who can afford to build up a medical case for their kids? Anyone who thinks there will ever be a draft without exemptions for the wealthy and connected is delusional.

Don

[TheCowsCameHome]

32. Or for the rich, well connected, or wealthy .

If there is a future draft, everyone goes. Sons, daughters, everyone. Not just the less priviledged and children of the working stiffs.

Or else stop creating wars like the Iraq folly we find ourselves in now.

Would Bush and Cheney have invaded Iraq if he though HIS daughters would have to don a uniform? You bet your ass he wouldn't have.

It's real easy to be a tough guy when your kids aren't dying for what you started. It must be great to have someone elses kid die for your twisted ideas, right George?

[NNN0LHI]

34. Delusional n/t

[TheCowsCameHome]

35. No more delusional that having troops doing 3+ tours in Iraq.

[NNN0LHI]

39. I don't think any of those soldiers were drafted

We were talking about a military draft not volunteerism here. There is a slight difference. Don't you think?

Don

[TheCowsCameHome]

41. And they would rather be over there than safe at home on US soil?.

Many can't get even out if they want to. Tours have been extended. And what about the National Guard? Surely they didn't expect to wind up being sent to the front lines in Iraq at 45+ years of age.


We are stretched too thin, and this moran at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue wants to threaten Iran, Syria, North Korea, and................with what?

[NNN0LHI]

54. Well thats all terrible and everything but...

...if you think someone else's kid should be drafted and go get killed so these soldiers who signed up voluntarily can have a break you better guess again. Ain't happening.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Oh it will happen, and when it happens

the murican people might finally wake up

[TheCowsCameHome]

98. When W runs out of volunteers, where will he get people to fight his wars?

Can anyone answer me that?

[LynnTheDem]

133. That's not quite correct.

My hubby, US army career soldier, literally had his retirement papers in his hands last month. The next day he was back-door drafted until 2007. His unit goes back to Iraq within the next few weeks.

He's been active duty for almost 23 years;

He NEVER volunteered to be sent to INVASION; he NEVER volunteered to be sent to invasion for LIES; he NEVER volunteered to be sent to invasion for lies WITHOUT EVEN ENOUGH RIFLES AND AMMO AND BODY ARMOR et al.

(Not yelling at you, Don...yelling at the stupid MFers who support this bullshit war crime invasion and sit safe at home instead of going to die for their bush-god's steaming pile of bullshit.)

[NNN0LHI]

135. But you know we are not talking about back-door drafts here Lynn

Everyone who did voluntarily join the military either did know or should have known about stop-loss. I have never been in the military and I heard of it a long time ago.

It was even used during the the first Gulf war. So its pretty difficult to suggest now that no one knew the possibility existed of it being used again.

All I am saying is I do not think mine or someone else's son should now be drafted to replace another soldier who did willingly sign up for whatever reason. I think you know I wish your husband was home right now? But I am not willing to allow someone to draft and force any of my family members who never signed anything to go to Iraq to replace him. And I stand by that.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. FREE INSANELY HUGE FREAKING CLUE

(sorry for screaming) Stop Loss is usually a temporary measure while the regular draft gets going, It usually indicates a force whose back is broken

So sorry, stuff it, the troops DID NOT volunteer for this... they volunteered to DEFEND AND PROTECT the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES FROM ENEMIES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC!

I am sick of this crowd on either side who rants, but they volunteeered, STFU OK.. they did not volunteeer for this!

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. GRRR This is why I worried until my hubby got his retired card

I still worry they will still pull him in. He smiles, they are not building boats... I still worry

The best to you and your husband, I KNOW how hard this is...

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Friedman is not hitting Bush hard at all.

He is a hawk, an imperialist neoclown of the first order, and he is trumpeting the hardline IN SUPPORT of Bush policies, by feigning criticism that Bush has not gone far enough.

[Ganja Ninja]

15. We should have had a draft & tax hikes & sacrifice all around but ...

every time anyone on the left brought it up we were ridiculed and told "the grown ups were in charge" by people like Friedman.

[No Exit]

22. To Friedman: GET THEE TO IRAQ, SCUM! n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. So he is finally joining us

time to go WAY TO GO FRIEDMAN... so you finally woke up and realized we need national sacrfice? WOW!

;-)

[highplainsdem]

21. David Brooks' column yesterday also said we need "national service."

So much nicer a term for the draft, don't you think? :sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. It is not only the draft implied in this

even if this is the most obvioous. It means higher taxes and taxes on specific products such as gas, and at time rationing of strategic goods. and if this is WW II as they keep claiming it is... we need all of this

[kenny blankenship]

23. I guess we should thank Tom Friedman

for making the term "Islamo-Fascism" legitimate and acceptable at the New York Times. We can now demand that they acknowledge its counterpart idea: Zionist-Fascism.
We should also thank him for making it clear just what he expects Americans to sacrifice for Zionist-Fascism. Their freedoms and their children are not too much.

[madrchsod]

24. i agree- fire up the draft

no exemptions-manadatory two years. then let`s see what happens........

[NNN0LHI]

26. Going to take boys with bad backs too?

Oh thats right only the rich can afford to send their kids to the doctor every other week to complain of back pain as they build up their case for a medical deferment. So guess who ends up going? You know. And your not kidding anyone either.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Yes they can do what their predecesors did in WW II

the good war, man the typing pools

[Warren Stupidity]

79. the elites avoid every draft.

Bad back, anal cyst, whatever. Worst case they finagle a safe appointment. It will be the poor and the middle class who will, as always, send their children to the abattoir.

[NNN0LHI]

84. Well thats fair isn't it?

Send the ones who have some money to the typing pool (or the Texas Air National Guard) and send the ones who don't to the front lines to get blown up by an IED. That is just wonderful.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. No, no, during WW II there was a spriit of real sacrifice

by the ruling class, Remmber TR's son was on the beaches of Normandy directing operations, no that was not the longest day, General Roosevelt was on the beach.

FDR lost a son in North Africa.

The champagne and caviar squadrons were purely a result of the Vietnam War... and the beginign of the chickenshit movement

These people say the war is worth fighting, and they keep tellng me this is the equivalent of WW II, I want to see Jenna on the wire, standing guard... in WW II, she would have staid home, but this is no longer a military that exclusdes women... though she could have done nursing with the navy, or any other support duty.

Of course there were the WASPs who lost pilots and gee golly one of them was the first female ace, which they are still fighting for recognition for it officially, as far as the Army Air Corp was concerned, never happened.

[NNN0LHI]

87. I personally know people who used their wealth and influence to advoid...

...being drafted during WW II. To suggest it didn't go on is disingenuous.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Yes, yes it did happen, but

that same class did not overall avoid service... today they are... with a passion

Hell that same class had people charging into the line in the civil war while people like Wendell Homes hired somebody else to serve for them

That said, the champagne and caviar squadrons are fully a product of the Vietnam War... fully...

[Warren Stupidity]

115. For example Ronald Reagan. eom.

[wtmusic]

112. Isn't it a coincidence that the "champagne and caviar squadrons"

showed up when wars had indefinite ethics and purpose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. yep, by the way in the fiction I am writing I am about tho break them

but I did insert them for a reason, hell George is a secondary character, all the way to his spineless being

[wtmusic]

166. would like a link to your work sometime nb

always enjoy your posts :thumbsup:

[TheCowsCameHome]

33. Exactly. But that would open too many eyes on the right.

[Warren Stupidity]

40. Oh, so you want 50,000 of our kids dead instead of 5,000?

'cause once you 'fire up the draft' the current cannon fodder limit on our imperial adventures will be eliminated. I guess you aren't old enough to remember when the weekly body count was in the hundreds.

[TheCowsCameHome]

44. If the Repugs that create these wars thought their kids would have to go

they'd think long and hard about conquering the world.

It would put a stop to their BS of sacrificing kids of others to fight their wars.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. I think that position is delusional.

Reinstituting the draft, in the short run, would empower the neoclowns to continue their imperial adventure. It would provide the troops they need to go after syria and iran. Perhaps in the long run, as it EVENTUALLY did with vietnam, it would turn the voter base against the ruling party. Meanwhile the death rate would increase by a factor of ten.

Keep this in mind: they view Iraq as a just a precursor to a global struggle over resources with the emerging super power China. Iraq is the warmup to the Big Show, much like Panama and Grenada and Kosovo and Gulf Farce I were training missions and technology trials for Gulf Farce II. They've just gotten started on their whole Pax Americana thing, the Big Carnage is all yet to come. Don't be a facilitator.

[TheCowsCameHome]

99. No (R) in Washington is going to vote to have his kid die in Iraq.

You're missing my point.

They will vote for a draft as long a someone elses kid is put in harms way. If they want a draft let them commit to sending their own.

Example: The governor of my state is extremely rich and very supportive of Bush and he has five healthy sons, but they won't serve. Because they are too good for that sort of thing.

I don't want to ever see a draft again. But if there is one, no more exclusions for the privileged. That will stop that nonsense of volunteering other's kids.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. No I get your point.

And I disagreed with this tactic when it was first stated by Charley Rangel. It is a dangerous game to bluff the opposition with exactly what they need in order to continue their failing policies. They just might call your bluff and use your stated support as cover. They are staring political disaster in the face, predicting their behavior right now is not a safe bet.

Also - if you are really opposed to the draft and are just using your stated support for it as a tactic then you are lying to and manipulating the public. A bit disingenuous, don't you think?

[wtmusic]

110. There will always be exclusions for the privileged

There have always been ways out of military service for those who can afford it, and there always will be.

A draft will just provide more fresh (poor) meat for the plundering. No draft, no way.

[TheCowsCameHome]

116. Exactly. No draft. I agree. Now tell that to Bush b4 he starts more wars

[bluedawg12]

27. What a neocon warmonger and gloablist who enjoys sending jobs

over seas so that his uber wealthy cronies can lap up the big dollars from cheap foreign labor.

this guy not only has a forked tongue but he then speaks out of both sides of his mouth..people seem to think he is brilliant, I find him transparently agenda driven and full of platitudes.

the world isn't flat- Tom's head is.

[KG]

28. freidman is just another blood thirsty neo-lib asshole who's made

no real sacrifices on his part, nor, i'd wager, would he be willing to.

[Zynx]

30. Hey Tom, why don't you go? If this really means that much to you

surely you can get your rich pampered ass over there and fight alongside our troops in Ramadi.

[bleedingheart]

38. and they can start by taking George P Bush...Jeb's son and then

they can have the Bush twins...and perhaps Noelle...if she has gotten off the dope.

[Bob3]

48. sad sad sad sad deluded little man with dreams of empire

1) The president's speech was excellent? Tom what color is the sky in your world? In this reality the speech was the usual half baked assertions linking Iraq to 9-11, outright lies about progress and vague Viet Nam era style warnings of the need to stay the course.

2) There is no such thing as Islamo-fascism - the term makes no bloody sense at all (in addition to being hard to pronounce) - fascism is extremely secular in nature where the individual exists only to serve the state (as defined by the leaders) for example see the Baath Party - Islamic republics by their nature do not appeal to a sense of nationhood. And of course he glosses over the Sunni/Shia split in the Muslim world.

3) I wish Tom would stop being disappointed in Bush for not being the Warrior King Tom so obviously wants him to be. Nobody else cares. Face it Tom, the man's a putz always was always will be. But to be fair only a man with a half baked mind like * has would even have tired the invasion or Iraq.

[warrens]

49. Islamo-fascism?????

Columnists for the New York Times are using terms made up at FRetard City now? That's a firing offense.

[Dark]

53. He should be drafting. . .

those chickenshit republicans.

[RagAss]

55. Fuck that little hateful man.....nm

[dean_dem]

60. It's all much clearer if you're wearing the "Moustache of Understanding"

[Crunchy Frog]

62. Poor Tommy.

He wanted this war soooo badly, and he knew that the Bushies were the only ones "audacious" enought to take it on. How could he not have realized that this sort of "audaciousness" comes with the baggage of ideological rigidity, wishful thinking and willful blindness to reality, and that will always lead to extreme, pigheaded incompetence. Tommy thought he could have his cake and eat it too and he's terribly disappointed to learn that that's not how the real world works.

[porphyrian]

65. Our kids are right behind theirs. - n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. At tthe risk of being pillored

I agree with Friedman... there is no sacrifice, outside of military families. So he is right... if he was going to fight this war where is the damn sacrifice?

Thouugh his two daughers need to sigh up as soon as they turn 18.

Now I part company in believing this war needed to be fought, but on the matter of sacrifice, he is DAMN RIGHT

[NNN0LHI]

70. Friedman is already old enough to join up. Why hasn't he? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Because he is actually too old to join up

that is why...

But he is not talking about your or my personal sacrifice, he is talking of a national sacrifice.

Look I sent a husband to war... hell on September 11 he was on the battle line... and a year later I sent him to war. One thing many of us noted even that early in the war was, outside of the base, we were not at war... one bit. You step outside the base and it was a different world. We worried constantly, but nobody understood it... nobody had to sacrifice a iota of their standard of living, for this war. I even told one war booster at the time, what the hell re you doing to support the conflict you love so much?

Stand behind the President.

And that is all people have been asked to do

So if we ar at war, and the President takes the country to war because it is important, you don't lower taxes (on the insanely rich), and you ask the people to sacrifice... what did Bush ask? Go spend money.

So in that little small line I fully agree with Friedman, step into ANY military base, and you are stepping into a world at war. step out, what war?

Of course it does not help the war has been sanitized for yer protection.. but Friedman has a point, if this was had to be fought, where is the national sacrifice?

[NNN0LHI]

76. He is now but that wasn't always the case was it?

What about before he became too old to sign up? Why wasn't he so gung ho about forcing people into the military when he had his own chance to be an army of one? Any ideas?

And there have been soldiers older than Friedman who have been killed fighting in Iraq who signed up the same time Friedman had the chance.

And for another thing he WAS of draft age during Vietnam. Why wasn't he drafted then? Or why didn't he volunteer then? How did he feel about the draft in 1971 when he came of draft age and we had a war raging in Vietnam? Do you know?

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. That is why I want his two kids in the army

as soon as they turn 18

Still the point stands, we are at war, right, RIGHT! What sacrifice have you been personally asked to make?

And that is the point I happen to agree with him, having been there done that, as a navy wife (and served under somebody else's flag) yuo want to take the sails out of this war? DRAFT, no exceptions

Hell the other day we went to the Air and Space museum, nice to find out that Theodore Roosevelt lost a son (and he also sserved), nice to know that FDR also lost a son in North Africa... they were willing to sacrifice and yes they were from the same social class oru current chicken hawks are coming from... so you know what, I want a draft... REAL SACRIFICE

[NNN0LHI]

86. Well you are never going to get Tommy's two kids in the army

And I wouldn't want them to anyway. I don't want to send any confused kids to their death in Iraq just to show Tommy and the Murican people how wrong they were. Even Tommy's kids lives are too important to be using them to make some fucking political point. Just because they have an asshole for a father they shouldn't be sent off to die.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. and I want sacrifice

real sacrifice, and a draft has been done IN EVERY MAJOR WAR since the Civil War... and every time it leads to riots.

Sacrifices are made in every war, except this one

So yes, I want his kids in the army

I want the kids of every war booster in the army

I want every war booster of military age in the army

I want our public media to stop sanitizing this damn war

I want our popular media to stop glofirying war

I want real sacrifice

So yes I agree with tommy, if the war is worth fighting (this is where we part company) we need national sacrifice.

And I am talking as somebody who already has sacrificed much...

[NNN0LHI]

95. Well go ahead and do some sacrificing then. Don't let me stop you

You guys can sacrifice your asses off somewhere I don't give a shit. Just don't you and Friedman start eying up my kids to keep your Crusade going.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. It is not my crusade and you are misraeding on purpose

I have been against this war from day one, and being against this war before the shooting started IN A MILITARY BASE takes more than you will get

That said, I agree with him in this small point, if this is WW II (as they contend) I want sacrifice

[Warren Stupidity]

109. Small point?

We rioted in the streets. We sacrificed our lives. We fought hard and long to abolish the draft so this sort of bullshit could never happen again. This is not a small point with those of us old enough to remember.

I suspect that you have no idea what it was like in the late 60's.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. I actually do

and again I will again say it... if this war is WW II... as they predicate, not that you have ot agree with this point or not, (and I don't) then we need a draft

Moreover, you know why the kids don't give a shit today? Their lives, unless they are in, are not on the line

And as I said repeatedly, this has created a world where most people go on with their lives with no sacrifices. You are asking a very small number of people to make them, Moreover, we have a draft right now... it is called a poverty draft...

So I guess that one is ok.. as long as most people cannot see it, and will not see it...

[Warren Stupidity]

105. Uh you agree with this:

The president's speech on terrorism Thursday was excellent. He made clear, better than ever, why winning in Iraq is so important to the wider struggle against Islamo-fascism.


That is the premise on which his support for the draft is predicated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. He also said that this is WW II

and if this is WW II, then we need a draft and REAL sacrifices.

It is not, but we do need a draft, for a lack of one is preventing people realizing that there is a war on

[Warren Stupidity]

125. I'm sorry but your logic escapes me here.

if this is WW II, then we need a draft ...
It is not, but we do need a draft ...

???

And you simply do not address the issue raised by myself and others that this is the enabling legislation for more and bigger wars.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. I know it does

I am capale of separating his propaganda, this is WW II from the reality, which is... no nation goes to war without a sacrifice, so far we have yet to make them.

And outside of the military community it truly does not feel like oh wartime... so go shop a little more

[Warren Stupidity]

130. nice - go shop a little more.

So basically you cannot really defend your position, which appears to be irrational, but you sure can toss insults by telling me to 'go shop'.

You know what? Shop this: I have three teenage sons. This affects me personally and I do not take it lightly. So shop that, 'kay?

Your solution to a bad war that is failing for a number of reasons, including recruitment problems at home, is to end the recruitment problem by dragging my kids off to fight a war they oppose. No thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. I can, who said go shoopping after 9.11?

Did the president say at ANY MOMENT we need national sacrifice? Which is not only a code for a draft?

No, he said, specifically go shoping

Did he cut the taxes of the upper 1% and then told us we were all getting a tax break, or did he raise taxes to pay for this war

So in other words the message has been go shopping, no sacrifice needed, hell we will even save you from seeing the death and destruction we are about to unleash upon the world

This is NOT a country at war... and maybe it is high time YOU, yes YOU feel a little of the pain.

So yes in the small point of we need national sacrifice, I agree with friedman, we DO... maybe then Joe and Jill will realize, there is a war on.

Oh and by the way there is a fine back door draft and poverty draft going on, I guess nobody has a problem with those, after all they volunteered. :sarcasm:

[KnowerOfLogic]

94. NO DRAFT. Bring all troops home NOW. And no f-ing gas tax either. nt

[NNN0LHI]

96. I say do away with the current gas on tax

Gives Bush less money to blow shit up with. The Dem's should be all over this.

Don

[i_c_a_White_Ghost]

97. hey tommy

see this middle finger?:smoke: i'ts for you !

[WI_DEM]

106. Unfortunately the draft would be what wakes people up to

start caring. Not that I want it back, but the reason Bush doesn't call for a draft is he knows it would have great resistence.

[Arbiter]

113. Why force someone to do your dirty work?

I am 100% OPPOSED to any sort of military draft. I don't believe you should force anyone to fight in any sort of war. It's immoral and I'll never support it. NEVER.

[entanglement]

114. Neocon imperialist FriedPig please shut up already

n/t

[sidwill]

123. The problem with Friedman is

He has no common sense.

To hope that invading a country, spreading death and destruction, fracturing its society and political culture (as warped as it was) and then trying, at gunpoint to establish a Democracy that would in spite of all the preceding, then act just the way we want it to is simply being silly.

Every time I read a recent TF op-ed he is ever more increasingly desperate, blaming the failure in Iraq on the "details" instead of being realistic and accepting that this was a BAD FUCKING IDEA to start with.

Of course he can't accept that he was wrong, so it must be some little detail in the process that caused this abortion: Not enough troops, not enough of the right kind of troops, not enough early security, poor leadership, CIA was ignorant, etc......

He never will simply understand that starting wars for whatever reason usually results in a poor outcome for those who start them and an even worse result for the por schmoes who just happen to be in the way.

TF is a putz.

[sidwill]

124. Oh yeah...

TF and Judith Miller should be stuffed in rucksacks, airlifted to Sadr city, and forced to hand out translated copies of their articles.

At least thats what would happen if there was justice in this world.

[Nimrod2005]

134. That's his own spin because his

and Bush's stupid experiment has failed. Now he says it was a great idea but poorly executed.

He, like many others, thought Iraq was going to be an economic lab, we were going to set up a free trade country, open markets, world class banking system in the ME. The first team sent there was all business people, but guess what? they started shooting at us, as it turned out, they did not want to be OCCUPIED!!!

The rest was history...So TF was wrong and he is wrong today.

[GreenArrow]

126. he's a professional propagandist

and the opinion he disseminates is not his own.

[leesa]

139. Why does this guy have this job? He is so ignorant, it's painful.

Anyone that could say a Bush speech is excellent is just on too many mind altering drugs.

[bluedawg12]

164. Neoconpig want's America be a 3 rd world nation and outsource

jobs for his one world order idea. did you ever see him on the discovery show in India praising their tech students?

Did you ever see him in Appalachia, detroit, or new orleans trying help elevate American kids and get them help and motivation for higher education? Nope. he loves the cheap over seas labor market.

[WeRQ4U]

141. Such an eerie reaction to TF here.

I often don't agree with him, but I respect him as an intelligent and informed voice. He is a little biased as to middle east issue, and he made some really odd observations regarding the justifications for war. He does fall on the left sometimes too, however, and I realize that not everything he says is going to mesh completely with my own ideals.

As for the draft being the "endless supply of warm bodies"... I sort of disagree. What it will be is a slap in the face to the still-zombie American public that this "war" is killing the nation, and NOW, their children too.

[NNN0LHI]

142. You just don't get it do you?

If they instituted the draft tomorrow there would be a pool of millions of eligible draftees for Bush and his minions to choose from every year. They don't need millions of draftees though. They might actually only need a few hundred thousand of them. So just take a guess who is going to be sent to Iraq for Iraq oil pipeline guarding duty? Do you think it is going to be their children?

Then on the other hand maybe you do get it?

Don

[WeRQ4U]

143. I suppose not huh.

Except for the fact that the Bush zombies are not ALL priviledged white folks. Some of them happen to be average blue collar americans. What I was getting at is that when these people realize that their children are being shipped to Iraq, it might wake them up and force them to become informed.

And as for this...........

"Then on the other hand maybe you do get it?"

Wow, you got me there NNNOLHI.............if that's your REAL name.

LMFAO.

Spare me. :eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

144. My brother received a draft deferment in 1969 because he was...

...a tool and die apprentice at Ford Motor Company. Doesn't get much more blue collar that that does it friend? Yea sure a draft will open the eyes of them blue collar workers. And how.

Don

[WeRQ4U]

145. And I should believe your isolated account represents the mass because???

I don't get it. You show me one incident of deferment from a different war and I"m supposed to believe it represents a cross section of blue collar america and their propesity for being drafted fro thsi one? OK.

And how.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. the problem is that the people who are against this war

cannot see why the youht does not give a damn, does not see why many MC and Working Class people don't give a damn either... their lives, are going on with no pain and no inteerruptions. the pain, teh true pain of this war, is limited to a very small and isolated community, who these jokers don't even respect becuse they volunteered, and this sick attitude is comnig from both sides.

[NNN0LHI]

152. You believe whatever you want

But you are never going to convince me that a draft is a good idea no matter how much you and that draft dodging coward Friedman jump up and down trying to convince me otherwise.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Is there any time when you would accept one?

say I don't know WW II?

[WeRQ4U]

156. You're allowed your opinion. I never said you weren't

I'm not trying to convice you of anything, just stating what I believe.

[Charlie Brown]

151. So we need to punish the children of the affluent

for their parents' alleged support for the War (I'm guessing you don't believe that anyone with wealth opposes the war). Does this include the children of Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich (I believ they're draft-age.)

Why do kids deserve to be sent to death b/c of the mistakes of their parents?

[ourbluenation]

158. I swear to fucking christ almighty - If my son is drafted heads will roll

I don't want him soldiering for any war but ESPECIALLY this one...we'll be on the next plane to I'm not telling...

[K-W]

162. Friedman is pro-war, pro-empire, pro-outsourcing...

He believes in belligerent US foriegn policy and 'free market' economics and he justifies all this as liberal.

What is so eerie about DU, which is largely anti-war and against conservative economic policies not liking Friedman?

[WeRQ4U]

165. What's eerie is acting like one of those conservative assholes....

And calling for someone's death. It's freaky.

You disagree?