The Rosenbergs were put to death for violating the same

[Holly_Hobby]

espionage law as the Bush administration. Also note that we weren't AT WAR during the time of the Rosenberg violations. The punishment for treason during wartime and which results in the death(s) of U.S. personnel, the maximum penalty according to the applicable Federal law under which the Indictments are being issued, is DEATH. (credit Truth Diamond)

...

1. The Rosenbergs were convicted, sentenced, and put to death under 18 USC 794(b).

...

2. Jonathan Pollard was convicted and sentenced to life in prison under 18 USC 794(c).

...

It's also interesting to note that Ted Olson was one of the lawyers who represented Pollard in his appeal.

3. Aldrich Ames was convicted, and sentenced to life in prison under 18 USC 794.

Joe Wilson said, “Naming her this way would have compromised every operation, every relationship, every network with which she had been associated in her entire career. This is the stuff of Kim Philby and Aldrich Ames.”

Didn't he also say that he wanted to see Karl Rove frogmarched out of the White House? There's a law that could see that happen, Joe. Why don't you invoke it?

...

4. Robert Hansen was convicted and sentenced to life in prison under 18 USC 794.

...

As the cases above illustrate, the motive the informant may have for breaking the Espionage law, 18 USC 794, is totally irrelevant. The Rosenbergs and Pollard have both argued that their intention was to help an ally, not harm the United States. The courts' held that the law doesn't care what their motives were.

...

Why should the leakers in Treasongate be treated any differently than those convicted under 18 USC 794 in the past? The statute provides no defense based upon motive. But seriously, does anybody still believe the Bush administration violated the Espionage Act and exposed themeselves to death or life in prison just to "smear" Joe Wilson? Motive doesn't matter to the law, other than its usefulness as an evidentiary device.

...

http://citizenspook.blogspot.com/2005/08/treasongate-prior-high-profile.html

Citizenspook is a retired Federal attorney.

[texpatriot2004]

1. Thanks for the history on this law. Recommended. nm

[Holly_Hobby]

2. How many times did Bush say we were at war? n/t

[ComerPerro]

3. Funny how we are only at war when its convenient for Bush

When he needs a boost in the polls, we're "at war".

When he needs to silence dissent, we're "at war".

When he is trying to pass BS legislation that won't even affect our troops our military policy, we're "at war" (and you can't oppose a president's legislation during wartime, apparently).


But, how come we are never "at war"

-when he is passing tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans

-when he is caught helping his buddies exploit our troops

-when he fundraises for his party

-when he goes on monthlong vacations

[robbedvoter]

39. Or when he himself deserts the army?

Let's not forget that his little AWOL youth indiscretion was also taking place during a war.

[Holly_Hobby]

4. Brewster Jennings incurred deaths of agents overseas

The number of agents killed working at Brewster Jennings is unclear. I've seen 30 deaths all the way up to 70 deaths of our agents. These deaths occurred directly due to the outing of Valerie Plame. The penalty for releasing this kind of information during wartime is DEATH.

I'd settle for life in prison for anyone involved.

[Norquist Nemesis]

19. True. But the WH would make the case we weren't at war

at the time of the outing. No doubt, the SC would back it up. Interestingly enough, SCOTUS is hearing a case now about federal employees protection under the 1st amendment as it relates to speech while acting as an employee (doing their job) vs. the protected speech as an individual. Depending on the decision, the WH may try to nuance a defense for the criminals that "they were doing their job." :nuke:

Do you have any links for the BJ deaths? I haven't seen anything on that yet. :)

[KnaveRupe]

24. Not at war?

Weren't we at war in Afghanistan at the time?

[Norquist Nemesis]

25. Not with Iraq though

In fact, when it comes to "war", I can almost see the lawyers putting forth arguments that we're at war in name only since the Congress never officially declared war as stipulated by the Constitution.

[jarnocan]

35. I was going to ask this too.

I have heard this indirectly. I hope it gets blazed in the headlines, after the indictments if it is true!!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. I didn't know that! 30-70 of our agents have been killed because of this

leak? Holy crap. No wonder these people are scared shitless! They are in BIG, BIG trouble! Personally, for this entire administration, I could go along with the death penalty, executions. They deserve it. They've murdered an awful lot of people because of this. At the very least...LIFE IN PRISON! and NOT a Club Med prison either. :grr:

[A Simple Game]

38. I'm anti death penalty, but,

this kind of scum seems to keep coming back if the cleansing is not permanent.

[kestrel91316]

42. I am not a big fan of the death penalty, and find it to be used

too often against the poor and minorities, but I SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY IN TNE PLAME CASE.

Espionage resulting in deaths during wartime? Yep. Go for it, Fitz.

[garybeck]

27. links please?

are there any articles about Brewster Jennings deaths?

thanks

[LonelyLRLiberal]

31. What is your source?

As you can tell, I am not on DU often, so I may have missed a previous post on this.

[progressoid]

5. Naw, I read over there at freeperland that there weren't no laws broked

and if any laws were broked, that Wilson and Plame woman broked em.

------------

RECOMMENDED!

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. .

:spray: Now just imagine what a different 'tude they'd have under a Clinton Administration involved in a "Treasongate" scandal? Death wouldn't be good enough. FReepers are nothing if not HUGH!!111 HYPOCRITES!

[Holly_Hobby]

6. Nearly 2,000 soldiers have been killed because of Bush's lies

about WMD. Brewster Jennings were getting close to WMD information. 18 USC 794 fits like a glove.

[Coastie for Truth]

7. Rumor making the rounds in the energy industry (no cites)

Valerie Flme was tracking the money in the money laundering trail from "the gas pump" to "the terrorists" via "Big Oil" and "" and the "Saudi Royals" - and she had to be stopped short of actual homicide.

[formercia]

10. So this is why Bandar Bush decided to get out of Dodge.

He saw the writing on the wall and wanted to make sure he was moved out before the shit hit the fan.

[_ed_]

8. I saw a documentary on HBO

done by the Rosenbergs granddaughter about a year ago. She was basically trying to find out who the "real" people were behind the public personas created. It was chilling. I highly recommend it.

I can't think of the name, unfortunately. I'm sure info is available on hbo.com.

[yodermon]

9. Citizenspook is spot in THAT post, BUT:

He crosses the line of rational argument in his piece TREASONGATE: IN CAHOOTS -- How The White House, Wilson, Novak, Corn and Plame Conspired for Treason.

Wilson, Corn, and Plame? Treason? Pleaze.

excerpt:

Joe Wilson is in cahoots with the Bush Administration along with David Corn, Bob Novak and Valerie Plame Wilson, a cast of spooks who have only just been outed with the writing of this article. They've carefully scripted this entire affair to shield themselves from prosecution for monolithic treasons against US citizens and our military. Treasongate, Rovegate, Leakgate, whatever you want to call it, is, in reality, an intricate version of hide and seek where the "perpetraitors" have been controlling both sides of the game.

He goes on to state that Mr & Mrs Wilson are guilty of treason because

A) Joe has NEVER raised the Espionage Act in his various statements and book; he always falls back on the IIPA. To Citizenspook, NOT suggesting indictments under section 794/793 is evidence of violating the same :crazy:.

B) Valerie (Plame) Wilson posed with her husband on the cover of Vanity Fair. :crazy:

C) David Corn was the first to ask, after the initial Novak article,
"Did Bush officials blow the cover of a U.S. intelligence officer working covertly in a field of vital importance to national security — and break the law — in order to strike at a Bush administration critic and intimidate others?" CS argues that the Novak article never stated that she was "undercover" (just an "agency operative"), therefore, Corn is guilty of espionage for stating such in his article. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

He then goes on to quote Instapundit and the National Review wingnut talking points that Wilson/Plame are responsible are responsible for her outing, and I refuse to link to such trash. :puke:

[Holly_Hobby]

15. That has yet to be proven

However, he's a Fed attorney and speaks well to the law surrounding this case. No one else has done that, including the MSM. I applaud his efforts for analyzing the laws. That is all.

[Holly_Hobby]

11. Damage assessment

...

You can bet your bottom dollar that the CIA has conducted a painstaking, meticulous damage assessment of the harm caused by Rove and his co-conspirators, which led to the loss not just of Valerie Plame as an agent, but of Brewster-Jennings as a front company and the use of any agent ever who worked for that Brewster Jennings front.

This damage assessment report is presumably still classified. But you can bet Fitzgerald hauled its authors into the grand jury room, and whatever harm was done to our national security because of Rove's malignancy -- Fitzgerald knows about it.

There is dark talk that people have disappeared. And when I say people -- I mean sources who Brewster Jennings CIA agents were running. Imagine that a Brewster Jennings NOC operating in Libya cultivated a source in the Libyan military, and was frequently seen in the company of this Libyan military official. Well I've been hearing dark talk that people such as that Libyan military official are missing.

If this is true, you can bet it's in the CIA damage assessment report on the Plame matter. And you can bet Fitzgerald knows about it.

Which could mean people like Rove and Libby might be in for a criminal sentence along the lines of what is typically reserved for people like Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen.

There's a lot more of this story yet to be told. The potential seriousness of this matter could go well beyond even the darkest speculation.

http://rubdmc.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/17/22429/1711

(Don't you think if there had been no "losses", the WH would be screaming that from the rooftops?)

[Coexist]

23. thank you for that.

we need this to go out in the MSM.

[garybeck]

30. "we need this to go out in the MSM"

not necessarily.

If this really involves the death of US spies, it should be kept under wraps until all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed.

this is one thing we don't need the media to help us on. if all of Fitz's ducks are in a row, that's all it will take. The MSM can ignore it all they want.

[Burried News]

12. What's good for the Goose is good for the Duck.

Saboutaging intelliegence gathering by the CIA and taking us to war on a lie is Treason.

[Coexist]

13. Why is there no investigation into the deaths caused by those

people who were involved with Brewster Jennings?

We need a body count, and we need bios on these people, if we are ever going to understand how heinous a crime this outing really was.

[Holly_Hobby]

14. See my post #11 n/t

[G_j]

17. "Espionage Act now front and center in Novak-Plame-gate"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5015547

[mopinko]

18. treason is treason

[NNN0LHI]

21. No wonder Judy has been so talkative lately

And the NYT has been so

:hide:

[Sparkman]

22. Nixon's main guy John Dean's take on prosecuting under Title 18...

But even if the White House was not initially involved with the leak, it has exploited it. As a result, it may have opened itself to additional criminal charges under the federal conspiracy statute.
(sparkman addition=fed. conspiracy statute = Title 18, Part 1, Ch19)

Why the Federal Conspiracy and Fraud Statutes May Apply Here


This elegantly simple law has snared countless people working for, or with, the federal government. Suppose a conspiracy is in progress. Even those who come in later, and who share in the purpose of the conspiracy, can become responsible for all that has gone on before they joined. They need not realize they are breaking the law; they need only have joined the conspiracy.


Most likely, in this instance the conspiracy would be a conspiracy to defraud - for the broad federal fraud statute, too, may apply here. If two federal government employees agree to undertake actions that are not within the scope of their employment, they can be found guilty of defrauding the U.S. by depriving it of the "faithful and honest services of its employee." It is difficult to imagine that President Bush is going to say he hired anyone to call reporters to wreak more havoc on Valerie Plame. Thus, anyone who did so - or helped another to do so - was acting outside the scope of his or her employment, and may be open to a fraud prosecution.


What counts as "fraud" under the statute? Simply put, "any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing, or defeating the lawful function of any department of government." (Emphasis added.) If telephoning reporters to further destroy a CIA asset whose identity has been revealed, and whose safety is now in jeopardy, does not fit this description, I would be quite surprised.
Link: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20031010.html

[Kurovski]

26. Treason is very serious business, with serious consequences.

We must never let this one go, otherwise treason just becomes another tool in a corrupt politician's belt.

Do a little jail time, get a pardon? No, not this time.

Stop enabling criminals.

[hvn_nbr_2]

29. Treason

I've wondered if the reason that Fitzgerald was so determined to get Judy Miller's testimony could be that she is the second witness to some overt act. The constitution requires two witnesses in order to prove treason.

A side effect of charging treason is that it effectively eliminates the threat of presidential pardons. It would be politically impossible to issue pardons for treason. I've been hoping that Brewster Jennings had something treasonable on Cheney. It seems to me a good bet that folks in the CIA have fed Fitzgerald any relevant and usable info from Brewster Jennings.

[Kurovski]

43. I didn't know that treason is unpardonable by a president.

I have this terrible bug that talks to me: it says, "Bush & Co. will always find a way around everything."

Thanks for the information. The bug is squashed.

I've felt for a long time now that the CIA would eventually help to derail the Bush express. The administration has treated them very badly as regards 9/11, trying to pin the admin's incompetence (or worse) on the agency.

[hvn_nbr_2]

45. Not unpardonable. Just politically impossible.

Constitutionally, the president can pardon any federal offense. Politically, it would be political suicide to pardon treason. Doing so would probably be political suicide for his whole party.

[Kurovski]

46. D'oy! Thanks for setting me straight.

Must...read...with...comprehension. I'll make a note of it!

I think they've over-reached on so many fronts that they already are committing political suicide. They might just go for a pardon anyway.

What if, in one possible scenario a Democratic president ended up granting a pardon? How do you think that would turn out?

[kskiska]

28. The Rosenbergs weren't convicted and executed for Treason.

The charge was Conspiracy to Commit Treason. Also, they did not pass information to an enemy of the U.S. Russia was an ally of the U.S. at the time.

[Jose Diablo]

32. Yep, the Rosenbergs never gave information to the Soviets

They confided with Klaus Fuchs, a British physicist in the Manhatten Project.

It was Fuchs that passed the information to the Soviets.



" The Rosenberg Trial is the sum of many stories: a love story, a spy story, a story of a family torn apart, and a story of government overreaching. As is the case with many famous trials, it is also the story of a particular time: the early 1950's with its cold war tensions and headlines dominated by Senator Joseph McCarthy and his demagogic tactics.

The Manhattan Project was the name given to the top-secret effort of Allied scientists to develop an atomic bomb. One of the Manhattan Project scientists working in Los Alamos was a British physicist named Klaus Fuchs. Twice in 1945 Fuchs met with a Soviet agent named Raymond and provided notes on the working design for the atomic bomb.

In February 1950, less than two weeks after a jury convicted Alger Hiss of perjury for denying under oath that he had passed secret information to a Communist agent named Whittaker Chambers, Klaus Fuchs was arrested and confessed to disclosing to the Soviets information about the Manhattan Project. One week after Fuchs' arrest, Senator Joseph McCarthy from Wisconsin propelled himself into the headlines by charging that the State Department employed over 200 Communist agents. It was a bad time to be a suspected Communist; it was a terrible time to be a suspected spy.

Fuchs' arrest, which began the chain of investigations that led authorities to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, was made possible by American cryptanalysts who successfully deciphered intercepted cables (the "Venona Cables") from the Soviet Consulate to the KGB. One cable was a report by Fuchs on the progress of the Manhattan Project. When confronted with evidence of his espionage, Klaus confessed and told authorities of his meetings with a spy he knew only as "Raymond." Within three months, the FBI began to focus on a pudgy, middle-aged chemist, Harry Gold, as the "Raymond" to whom Fuchs had given information about the bomb. Within a week after the FBI first began to ask Gold questions such as "Were you ever west of the Mississippi?," Gold offered a voluntary confession."


Thus the Rosenbergs were busted for conspiracy, but they still were executed.

[kskiska]

34. There's a really good book on this

"The Brother," focusing on Ethel's brother, David Greenglass, who committed perjury, sending his sister to the electric chair. He's still alive and unrepentant, and was interviewed on 60 Minutes a year or so ago.

[StefanX]

33. Can't vote Bush out (Diebold), can't impeach him (corrupt crony Congress)

So whose fault will it be if he ends up getting removed from office by lethal injection or life in prison?

[robertpaulsen]

36. Ah, citizenspook. Hadn't read him in a while, thanks for posting this.

He's dead right when it comes to the laws that can should put this entire misadministration in the gas chamber. I still don't understand why he thinks Joe Wilson could "invoke" anything against them. That was George Tenet's responsibility. Joe Wilson's not a lawyer, so I'm not sure what citizenspook's bug is about him unless there's something personal going on. But other than that, citizenspook really nails the truth on what the misadministration should be put away for.


edited to say

:hi:

[enough]

37. One question inspired by Citizenspook's very interesting page:

snip>

The Supreme Court has held that the Espionage Act of 1917 makes criminal, and subject to the prescribed penalties, the communication of the prohibited information to the advantage of 'any foreign nation,' even if such communication does not injure this country. See Gorin v. United States, 312 U.S. 19, 29-30, 61 S.Ct. 429, 435, 85 L.Ed. 488, where the Court said: 'Nor do we think it necessary to prove that the information obtained was to be used to the injury of the United States. The statute is explicit in phrasing the crime of espionage as an act of obtaining information relating to the national defense 'to be used * * * to the advantage of any foreign nation.' No distinction is made between friend or enemy.

snip>



In this case, there does not seem to be a "foreign nation" who would be the beneficiary of this action. It is not spying for someone else. It is putting out information that will HURT the US (or its agencies). Does this come under the same statute?

[cassiepriam]

40. Times have changed. Now you get a book deal, and become an icon.

[robbedvoter]

41. Kick!

[Greyhound]

44. Has anybody considered that when they are not tried for their

crimes, it will show the lie of equality in this country? They are the ruling class and they will never be prosecuted for their crimes, and if the world convicts them, we will shield them from the penalty.