Cindy Sheehan: Dianne Feinstein is a "Republican white man in a dress"

[derby378]

OUCH!!

She just said it on Randi Rhodes a moment ago. Whoa.

:rofl:

[Maat]

1. Yes, she IS correct (n/t)!

[Kikosexy2]

2. DiFi...

is a sell-out--I don't trust her anymore. shame.

[Bill219]

3. she also just said

that went the casualty count reaches 2,000 soldiers that she is going to tie her self to the White House fence and even if they arrest her until the troops come home she will keep going back

[derby378]

4. This woman knows the meaning of the word "courage"

Nero, on the other hand, won't even spend five minutes with her. He could end it all right now if he'd just meet with her. But we all know he's such a chickenshit that he'll never do it.

[EFerrari]

62. Whaddya want? Man's got to ride his bike. n/t

[radwriter0555]

200. I'm LIKING Cindy MORE and MORE! She's got some serious cajones

that one.

My new hero!

[dbackjon]

5. Cindy Sheehan is doing more harm than good with comments like that

Inexcusable.

Cindy - you had your moment - but you are turning yourself into a self-agrandizing caricature.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dbackjon]

9. I don't have a lot of time to post.

But if you are implying that I am a troll, etc then you are dead wrong, so don't begin to judge me.

But cutting our own in public like that is stupid. Reminds me of the Nader supporters who said there was no difference between Bush or Gore----right.......

[Tigress DEM]

87. I agree. Tearing our own up in public is counter productive.

Kicking their asses in private - another thing entirely.

Hang in there.

Let's hope the rest of what Cindy had to say is of better content and that she was just doing a "Dean" in trying to get attention for the "real" issues.

[Zhade]

161. Maybe the rightwing Feinstein is YOUR own, but she ain't mine.

And she's my friggin' senator!

[Tigress DEM]

172. OK. After getting some facts, I totally see the light.

Still, just like we look at the Republican party as a whole and want them to clean their own mess up, I see Feinstein as OUR problem because she has that D after her name.

I agree. She has a conflict of interest and hopefully you guys will not only vote her out of office, but find someone to add her to the list of corrupt politicians who need to be investigated and face jail time if her behavior warrants it.

However, the rethug talking point will be that our house is just as dirty as theirs even if we have 2 dinos that go down among 20 of theirs.

[Zhade]

176. It's a pretty messy house as it is.

We're going to have to learn to accept that fact.

I am glad you now understand our anger.

[Tigress DEM]

183. I've understood the anger from the start.... really.

I'm in MN - I have Mayor Randy Kelly in St Paul who calls himself a DEM, but takes money from RNC and has his head firmly up Bush's rear.

Then there's Norm Coleman who was a DEM in NY, but once he got elected in MN turned coat and also planted his head firmly up Bush's rear. He even stayed in the party after Bush let Norm face John Galloway on his own. I tried to warn Normie about taking Galloway on, but he wouldn't listen to me and I was oh so happy when Galloway handed Normie his ass on national TV.

I have Govenor Pawlenty R who put our lege into shutdown because he had a pledge not to raise taxes and the lege wanted to fund crazy things like schools and road construction etc...

AND this is primarily a BLUE state!!!!

Still. I KNOW why I'm mad and I just wanted to know WHY you guys were mad. I never doubted the anger was justified.

[Tigress DEM]

184. dupe of 183

I'm in MN - I have Mayor Randy Kelly in St Paul who calls himself a DEM, but takes money from RNC and has his head firmly up Bush's rear.

Then there's Norm Coleman who was a DEM in NY, but once he got elected in MN turned coat and also planted his head firmly up Bush's rear. He even stayed in the party after Bush let Norm face John Galloway on his own. I tried to warn Normie about taking Galloway on, but he wouldn't listen to me and I was oh so happy when Galloway handed Normie his ass on national TV.

I have Govenor Pawlenty R who put our lege into shutdown because he had a pledge not to raise taxes and the lege wanted to fund crazy things like schools and road construction etc...

AND this is primarily a BLUE state!!!!

Still. I KNOW why I'm mad and I just wanted to know WHY you guys were mad. I never doubted the anger was justified.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tigress DEM]

194. Two Points.

One - If you notice, there was a post deleted by a mod that she was responding to, so it's hard to know what the second post was responding to since the first is gone.

Two - If you read all that person's posts she isn't a troll, she just has a different opinion and wants a level of integrity to the DEM response in these situations so we don't hand the freepers their talking points and become as ridiculous as the rethugs.

We're DEMS we don't all agree, but a level of respect is a good thing. It doesn't mean we shy away from cleaning house, quite the opposite. But we don't have to do it the way the rethugs do.

Whenever we don't have the facts at hand when we slam someone, especially in our party, it makes us look foolish. Slam away, just do it with the truth and make it stick.

[tk2kewl]

198. you're presuming that Cindy is "one of your own"

she wants to end the war and that is her only issue. so i would assume that from her perspective "one of her own" only includes people who actively call for the end of the war.

[Tigress DEM]

199. Confused about which post you are responding to... it says #9

But there isn't anything in #9 about one of our own, and post 5 which was the previous one for that poster, was talking about DiFi as a DEM is one of our own.

There isn't anything in the posts that says this person is against the Peace Movement or Cindy, just the specific thing that was said.

I don't understand why people defend whatever Cindy says just because she's Cindy.

I support Cindy, but I have my own brain and opinions in tact. After I found out why she said what she did from people on the thread, I agree what Cindy said was justified, but I'm not into blind obedience or loyalty to anyone.

Course, now that I know why Cindy said what she said, I feel empowered to support her position and supply the facts about DiFi's apparrent conflict of interest.

I'm converting average Republicans to the truth. It's a tough job getting them off the koolaid, but it has it's rewards.

[libnnc]

10. like she gives a flying fuck what you think...

This administration has murdered her son.

She can do or say whatever the hell she feels.

You certainly don't have to listen.

[dbackjon]

13. But I have to listen to those

Who I am making headway in getting over to OUR side to end this thing, and having her call one of our Senators childish names is counter-productive.

So I do give a fuck about things - but to call anyone a "Man in a dress" is uncalled for.

Sheehan could critize her positions without resorting to that.

[libnnc]

19. well then why don't you just tell her yourself

call the damn show instead of whining about it here on a message board.

She's willing to get harassed, arrested, spit on, man-handled, smeared on the tee-vee by pundits and strangers.

WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO?

HAVE YOU SACRIFICED YOUR BABY BOY?


didn't think so.

[LittleClarkie]

21. I think I'd give the person time to answer before I'd add "didn't think so

How do you know that the person you're speaking to hasn't done quite alot, actually. You might be talking to a veteran with one leg for all you know.

It's a message board, indeed. If comment wasn't welcome, why post? Must we all march in lockstep?

[libnnc]

33. I'm pissed. Sue me.

[Tigress DEM]

91. Good points.

Hey Little Clarkie, how's it going?

People get protective of their posts and their movement icons, I guess.

Still, love this forum. Even if I get my ass handed to me sometimes. Course this time it wasn't me. Not yet anyway.

:crazy:

[Tigress DEM]

83. WHY can't people have their own opinion and say that ....

calling names is counterproductive ON DU without getting attacked?

I treasure Cindy in general, I watched her get arrested on 9/26 and have prayed for her, gone to vigils, everything. I defend her right to speak her mind, but I don't always agree with what she says or in this case the say she said it.

Basically makes me a DEM, not a troll.

My son is draft age and I could very well have to deal with what Cindy has. Even so, I think there are better ways to put the light on whatever Feinstein has or hasn't done as a DEM that brought on the comment.

I'd like to know the substance of Cindy's complaint, but instead it's going to be all about the name calling now and the real meat of the issue will be lost.

And it makes US DEMS look like fools for running up and saying she has the right to behave this way because of her grief. I suppose that is true in some respect, but since she has the spotlight, can't we want her to nail the issues and not attack our party?

I mean the things Feinstein has done would probably be awful no matter who did them and worse because she's a DEM and we expect more, but this turning and ripping our own apart in public is counter productive.

[me b zola]

152. Thank you for saying that

I have only had one child, and I cannot begin to imagine the rage I would feel if he were to be killed in this illegal & immoral war. No one should judge Cindy for her thoughts & feelings, we should be supportive of her mourning & outrage. I am sick of people treating her as though she is a political operative when in fact all she is is a grieving mother who is becoming politically active to stop other mothers from having to share her grief.

Good God, isn't bad enough to hear repukes say nasty things about Cindy, do we really need to hear that here?? :wtf:

[sallyseven]

31. Those of us on the front lines trying to convince`people

that we are responsible and good god fearing Democrats that have a problem with repuks should be careful how we behave. Eating our own is not a good sigh. She can be brought in line or we can with hold finances and let her know why.

[bread_and_roses]

68. Cindy is on her OWN mission - not "the Democrats"

...or at least, I never heard her say that her mission was to help get Democrats elected.

Her mission is her own, and I for one think she displays integrity by attacking Dems as well as Rs who stand against that mission.

I doubt she'll be "brought in line" by the "anyone with a D after the name" contingent.

[Tigress DEM]

88. NOBODY shows integrity by ATTACKING someone.

Attacking people and calling names is childish, no matter who does it. SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER - regardless of which party may get offended is a differnt thing entirely. THAT isn't EATING OUR OWN - It's hashing out the terms of Freedom and is a valid thing to do.

Come on. Common sense here.

Cindy certainly wants to help the DEMs because we are the best chance to get this country turned around so this doesn't have to be this way, so other mother's don't have to face the endless pain she endures.

She just went a bit over board.

WE DEMS can't be "brought in line" because we are general more like CATS that have our own agenda vs DOGS who can be trained to do anything for a treat.

However, we are usually open to suggestions for how to be more effective and care about what our actions do to the DEM movement in general. We may still pick our own way through it, but the best DEMs listen to criticism and decide for themselves if there is merit to it.

Passion is a great thing. Cindy has a lot of it. God bless her.

Still this situation is unfortunate and I hope she makes different types of decisions in the future.

[BigBearJohn]

92. I disagree. She calls it as she sees it. And I agree with her.

She's making a stand. That's more than I can say about a lot of people.

[Tigress DEM]

104. People can make a stand w/o ATTACKING others.

I'm not certain that Cindy even attacked DiFi - someone said it was more like a comment about her voting record and may have been handed off lightly instead of with malice.

But if you think a person shows integrity by ATTACKING someone, then you are talking about BULLYING behaviors.

I am personally SICK to DEATH of being bullied by the REPUKES and I certainly will "call it as I SEE it" when someone's behavior is an attack, whether it is from MY PARTY or another because that kind of behavior has gone on long enough.

[BigBearJohn]

136. Your argument seems based on the idea that it is a bad idea to attack

In my opinion, that's one of the reasons Democrats lose so many races.
They tend not to attack their opponents and Cindy obviously doesn't
see Feinstein as being on our side.

I don't see how Cindy loses her integrity by telling the truth....
even if it stings. Truth sometimes hurts. If what she said was an
outright lie, then that would be a different story.

How did you feel about Cindy when she said about Bush: "That man has never known
a day of hard work in his life." That certainly is an attack. Did
she lose her integrity there too?

You seem to equate the two words, bully and attack. A "bully" is one
who is habitually cruel to others who are weaker. Diane is certainly
not weaker than Cindy.

[Tigress DEM]

146. You are defining my perception of attack, and you not hearing what I said.

I said, I didn't know if what Cindy had said even WAS an attack.

Telling the truth isn't attacking someone.

But attacking is more like getting up and going to war. It's walking up and verbally smearing a mess on someone. Telling the truth isn't an attack.

Cindy saying that about Bush wasn't attacking him.

I define attack as a slam without a factual basis or something that is said with such force that the force is the only thing that can be remembered.

If I were a resturant worker and took a plate of spagetti and slammed it in your face while I nicely said, "Enjoy your meal" it's still and attack.

If I were that same resturant worker and laid your plate down soundly and said, "People in Louisianna are starving and you are eating out you pig, Brown," then I'd be pushing it a little, but it's closer to telling the truth than a direct attack.

[BigBearJohn]

159. Ok, but aren't you now attacking Cindy?

[Tigress DEM]

165. NO. I have said it 2 or 3 times that I don't know if Cindy's statement...

even was an attack. Slow down and read the whole post.

I love Cindy. I just want to have facts to base my support of her. From what I've read, she only added to the comment and the comment has a factual basis and therefore is not a slam or a smear.

BUT I didn't know that until I got really deep into the thread and people gave me some really good links to understand why Cindy would say such a thing.

Still this was a good thread. It got people really going and it makes people think of what they believe, how they want to put the message out there and because DU has basic respect as the way we do stuff here the dialogue gives everyone more than they had before.

It's all good.

Peace.

[BigBearJohn]

175. Agreed.

:hi:

[Tigress DEM]

178. Let's party!!!

The truth is a good thing and this post has been one wild ride!

Still, want to make sure that people realize that we can do this together and still be buds!

:party: :toast: :yourock:

[Zodiak]

240. Cindy is not a Dem

she made that perfectly clear. She is not "our own" to eat or be eaten.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tigress DEM]

187. Real mature.

I believe in freedom of speach, but just because I question why someone says what they say and challange them to support their viewpoint doesn't make me against the first ammendment.

I'm not against Cindy and if you read my full posts you would know that, but apparantly you are too busy coming up with creative things to say like:

"fuck off" and "those who are against Cindy are like Coulter"

Come back and play when you have something useful to contribute.

[sallyseven]

32. Those of us on the front lines trying to convince`people

that we are responsible and good god fearing Democrats that have a problem with repuks. We should be careful how we behave. Eating our own is not a good sign. She can be brought in line or we can with hold finances and let her know why.

[converted_democrat]

43. Who is this "we" you are talking about??? n/t

[Tigress DEM]

95. I'm a WE.

:bounce:

This is fun.

It isn't going to kill us or our progress. DEMS are individuals. Cindy went a little overboard. WE don't need to rip her apart either. Still, one can't help but wish she hadn't gone there.

I do spend a lot of time trying to build consensus.

As a counter to this you can pull up those grieving families confronting the serial killer and telling him the hoped he rotted in HELL and other terrible things.

It takes such a lot of time to move this country and Cindy may have hoped for a lot more from the PEACE March 9/24. We had about 1/2 a million people out there. And on 9/26 when Cindy got arrested she had 370 people who went along with her.

Media coverage? Bubkiss.

It has to be frustrating. I came back and was depressed for a week or more and I didn't have to pack it up and go on a speaking engagement the next day.

Cindy probably needs more support and suggestions on how to frame things. Unless she is purposely doing this to get attention.

Still with all the REPUKES she could be tearing into... I wonder what Diane did to get her goat?

[Marie26]

259. Feinstein apparantly refused to meet with her back in Sept.

Is that the criteria?

[Tigress DEM]

288. In several spots I asked and it's a lot more than that.

There is a conflict of interest with her husband having a company that got a huge defense contract in Iraq of around $600 million.

The initial vote and also the fact that she is on the defense appropriations committee which decides how much of the money that was budgeted for the war is spent and who it goes to - so that is an ongoing no-no for anyone claiming to be fair and impartial.

Some people say she has also voted against DEM intersts in respect to Medicare and the Patriot Act. I'm taking their word for it. I didn't look up her vote history specifically, although I did find a link on her website and put it in one of my posts on this thread.

I've been too busy defending myself for wanting facts and not being a happy camper about giving the rethugs any reason to put Cindy down. I really like and respect her, but it wasn't clear if she'd put her foot in her mouth or if it was being taken out of context.

I've read quite a bit of the posts and people said she was on the Rhandi Rhodes show with another caller and somehow the critique of DiFi came out to what the OP said. It doesn't really sound malicious now that I think about it, since Cindy was talking about the record more than the person and there's a lot of people here who say DiFi's voting record is horrible.

[Marie26]

294. Thanks for the info!

Yeah, it looks like Richard Blum, Feinstein's husband, made a lot of $$ off of Iraq. He is a partial owner of the Perini Corp., which landed a $500 million dollar contract to repair Iraq's energy grid. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/03/13/BUGIJ5JL7E1.DTL Thanks for asking questions about this - there's a lot of people (like me) that wouldn't have known about this otherwise. I do wish Cindy Sheehan had explained a little more about why she's against Feinstein - including info could help people understand her position, rather than just thinking she's a loose cannon. I can image O'Reilly having a field day with a quote like this :eyes:.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tigress DEM]

192. I was talking to someone who IS though, and I wasn't talking to you.

So if you jump in a post, do us all a favor. Don't ASSUME you know who someone is.

I have friends of all kinds. I believe in God, but I don't attempt to define for anyone else what they believe and certainly not by looking at one or two of their posts.

There are people who are "Responsible God-Fearing DEMS." It was that poster's right to define herself as she so chooses. Does that mean all the other ways people believe are wrong? No. Did I say that? No. You have a chip on your shoulder that was there way before this thread and that's your thing.

Having the facts to back up ones opinion makes it "cleaning house" if you just spew without a real reason against people who are standing beside you on your team, that's "eating your own" and because DiFi has a D after her name she is our responsibility, just as bush belongs to all the R's. I agree we should clean house.

HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A REPUBLICAN? I am so far away from being a republican and you have no idea of the things I have done to foster real leadership, which includes more than following people like Cindy around with blind support. THAT is what gave us a DiFi to begin with!

My son is draft age and so I could face the same pain Cindy has. My father was in Korea and got shot up his spine for his trouble and we lived on the razor's edge of poverty so DON'T YOU TRY TO THINK YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME.

I support Cindy, but I KNOW WHY. Do you know why you support her?

I found out reasons why people believe DiFi needs to go. Did you?

I'm sorry if this is harsh, but you put up your dukes. You attacked me and I will defend myself as needed.

No hard feelings, but if you come at someone and knowing nothing about them tell them to "fuck off" and call them names like you did to me you get what you get.

[BrklynLiberal]

34. I believe that Cindy was speaking figuratively, not literally. She was

implying that DiFi votes like the old white men in the Senate do. It was not name-calling, it was a comment on her voting history.

[Tigress DEM]

98. I haven't been looking that closely at her voting history...

What would you say are the biggest ways Diane has let the party down?

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tigress DEM]

137. Dude, ok, if Cindy has a valid point about DiFi - what IS IT?

The way Cindy can be smeared is if she said that and had no basis for what she said.

Does ANYONE have the facts about DiFi that would make it possible to support Cindy with more than BLIND devotion, which I just can't hauck up for anyone.

She's cool. I stood there and shouted "THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING" when they put her in the paddy wagon on 9/26.

Love that lady, but if no one gives a real reason for why Cindy is correct in what she said, then Cindy's is the one smearing.

Michael Moore backs up what he says with facts.

Did she take PNAC money? I know Mark Kennedy here in MN did. Is that partly what this is about?

[AntiCoup2K4]

148. DiFi's hubby is a defense contractor.

He is personally making a profit from this war. And I believe California is a "community property" state, which makes her a war profiteer by default.

Therefore, she votes for an illegal war to benefit herself, against the wishes of 90% of her constituents, if the numbers quoted elsewhere in this thread are correct. And considering she's in California, I would believe those numbers.

[Tigress DEM]

151. I see the conflict of interest if she supported the war knowing....

he would get the contracts, but there is a timing thing here. I fully believe it could have happened that way, but I don't have the facts, so I'm hesitant to jump on a DEM without them.

In the original vote, most of the Congress approved this mistake. And they were lied to, denied access to actual proof, and this country was in a bit of a tailspin.

If that vote and only that vote is what people reference, then it's a thin argument. Even Kerry voted to go to war because we were lied to.

And when was the 90% of CA against the war? From the beginning? Now? A year after? I know CA has had a huge turn out for Peace Marches. So I hear what you are saying, but if a DEM needs to be fried, we need to have proof before we run off.

[Arianrhod]

209. "...because we were lied to."

And yet, thousands of us here on DU knew that these were lies even as they were being told. I've never found a good answer to my question: Why weren't these senators--some of whom were on war committees and had high security clearances--aware of the simple facts that the rest of us with no such access were?

Edit: dumb grammar error

[Tigress DEM]

215. I think in some of the DSM posts there were some answers....

On the DU I remember we were WAY ahead of the MSM for a long time. I know I went to a Media Fair only this March because it was still so bad. I confronted the Star Tribune and some other minor players with stuff I'd read here and they were floored. Didn't have a clue.

I also remember sending in a lot of letters to papers and FAUX etc even NPR because of mis-information and sending emails to Senators like Kennedy, Boxer and Reid about stuff we knew was going on and seeing a ripple effect within a week or two on those issues.

When the DSM broke, I read and read and even when into the supplemental report on how they were advised it was illegal to bomb as they had been months before B*** ever asked for permission.

Somewhere at some point I remember reading that the Niger forgeries were witheld from the people who would know right away what they were and I remember how pissed Colin Powell was when he realized he'd been duped. He wasn't even invited to the high level meetings about Iraq, just informed of his talking points - and he was Secretary of State at the time.

When the rethugs had all the power and they had the press wrapped up and didn't think people could see them, they did highly irregular things and got away with them

[Arianrhod]

222. Thanks. I understand all of that.

But the fact remains that we knew what they not only should have known, but could have, if they had actually been doing their jobs.

[Tigress DEM]

287. You can bet most of them have people checking the internet now.

I have seen steady improvement in a lot of the DEM Senators as far as trying to know what is really going on.

It used to be that the only mainstream DEM flapping his jaw on our issues was Ted Kennedy. "Democrats, party of one!"

Then I noticed when Boxer and Conyers really started to step into the fray. And here and there I saw a lot more bravery in the party - more ruckus with each appointment for ex - and some DINOism, but now we have most of the DEMS sticking together on the most important issues and garnering bipartisan support as well.

I don't know many of the reps in the House. John Conyers!!!, Betsy McCollum - she's been mentioned as a candidate for MN Gov, Martin Oslav Sabo - my rep, Jim Ramstad-R, but not happy with the pRes at all.

I think the founders of the Constitution really understood how this could blow up in our faces and that's why they wrote in so much power to the people for oversight. Apathy in the 70's - 90's really paved the way for these bozos to dig their heels in and destroy our rights.

Well, one good thing. Those of us who've lived even a portion of this nightmare awake won't be able to be comfortably apathetic again.

[Arianrhod]

302. I've never been apathetic.

Although I will admit to having been naive and misguided.

I didn't register as a Democrat until 1992, having become fed up with Bush senior's elitism and realizing that we needed a change. But the Dems haven't impressed me much, over the last 13 years. They still don't. Feinstein is a perfect example. She was outstanding as the Liberal mayor of San Francisco, but since taking office as a senator she seems to have taken on the personna of all those whose sole goal in life is to remain in office. The contempt she shows for Democratic ideals is both disappointing and frustrating. Like, what the hell is this business with pseudoepinephrine? A lot of us depend on that drug to keep our heads from exploding every autumn, yet she wants to criminalize it in order to create the illusion that the Dems are somehow "strong against drugs". Fuck her illusion. Fuck the "war" on drugs. Democrats shouldn't be jumping on the Republican bandwagons; we should be standing for the ideals and values that really matter.

As a Pagan, I live in a world of absolute reality, of absolute morality, and I'm sick of politicians, on every side of the aisle, distorting that reality with the sole intent of maintaining personal power and money. Diane Feinstein once had genuine potential, but she has given herself over to the dark side. Let her rot in it.

Barbara Boxer, OTOH, will get my vote every time.

How many Dems voted for the Patriot Act? Why should I trust them to defend my rights and interests, when they have each given them away in that one vote?

I don't share the faith you have in the so-called Democratic "leaders". I expect a LOT of repentance, a LOT of remorse, on the part of the Dems who currently hold office. If they want my vote, they damned well better demonstrate that they're worthy of it.

[FreedomAngel82]

167. Even if it is true

:eyes: Oh yes. And I'm sure you're such a Liberman fan too.

[LittleClarkie]

20. Then again, Bush and Cheney don't give a flying fuck what we think either

and yet that doesn't stop us from commenting.

It's a public comment from a public figure. If nobody cared what anybody thought about what Cindy said, why would they post it on a message board, open to public discussion?

That said, I don't know DiFi well enough to know if the comment was accurate, so I don't have much to say about it.

Cindy is who she is, and will say what she's gonna say. She's not open to tweeking, framing or anything else. It's her opinion, and she's welcome to it.

And everyone else is welcome to theirs, I reckon.

[Tigress DEM]

101. True that, but Cindy is more of a reasonable type....

I think if she thought her comment was a bit over the line she'd think about doing things differently in the future.

But if it wasn't said in a "mann coulter" type of vindictiveness and was more about DiFi's voting record, maybe it wasn't that big of a deal. Just an attempt at levity.

[goclark]

38. She is calling attention to the problem by any legal means

necessary.

I see it as a fine thing to do considering that Diane Feinstein has refused to meet with her, as far as I recall, several times.

I saw Cindy speak in Los Angeles and she said that she had been getting nothing but the run around from Feinstein.

It is one thing for the Republicans to refuse to meet with her, another thing for another woman AND a Democrat.
Feinstein is no better than Bush toward Cindy.

I will not vote for Feinstein again. She is a war monger.

[Tigress DEM]

107. Now the points you make help me understand. Thanks. nt

[RagAss]

72. Amen !

[Jack The Tab]

127. Posts like yours are exactly why I dont post so much anymore..

People here have gotten rude, rude, rude.

Not only that, I am seeing a lot of severe, knee-jerk FARRRR left wing attitude coming off the boards nowadays.

It's like a mirror of Free Republic.

And before any of you start to flame me or call me names, I've been posting here since the beginning of the board.

[Tigress DEM]

135. Hey Jack. I wouldn't mind the passion if it came with FACTS.

Know what I mean?

I understand a lot of people get really carried away and I know I myself have held my finger over the enter key, knowing I should walk away for a few minutes and come back before sening it off, and did it anyway.

:dilemma:

Still, I've been asking for solid reasons as to why DiFi deserves to be called a DINO or a NeoCon and I'm not getting any bites.

A lot of passion here though, and that's good in it's place.

[leesa]

185. There have been thousands of posts about it...why don't YOU do some

work and look it up?

[Tigress DEM]

197. Since this post is about the issue, I just thought I'd ask.

I got my answers by the way, and I might do more research as well.

What I object to is people posting on DU DEMANDING BLIND Loyalty to the fact that Cindy must be right if she said it and attacking people here on DU for having different opinions.

I thought that people who were this worked up about it probably know it off the top of their head.

I don't spout off about someone being this or that without having facts to back it up.

Course, I do spout just like anyone else here.

But if someone disagrees with me I ask them why they disagree so I can learn something, not just about DiFi, but about my fellow DEMS.

People are really interesting and their take on these events and such are valuable because a person has so much stuff they bring with them - some of it good and some not so good.

No one is perfect least of all me and I probably pissed people off.

Sorry. I guess.

Nah. It was fun and I think I played fair with everyone who played fair with me.

[Zhade]

168. What, the Maoists and Stalinists got out of the basement?

Are they running around jabbering about forced redistribution of wealth and the joys of collectivization?

I just hate it when they post those "All Hail The Great Chairman!" and "Better Red Than Dead, Comrade!" threads. Really brings the place down!

"FARRRR left wing attitude" - you say it like you know the definition. That's so adorable!

(Yeah, that was rude, but it made my point: if you think DU is far-left, you're not living in the reality of the rest of the world, friend.)

[sufrommich]

232. I'm new here

and agree with you.I was thinking as I scrolled though the posts that some of the thinking here is Free Republic like.Whether Sheehan is a Dem or not,I guarantee that the right will use her to scare moderate dems(like myself)by trying to paint her over the top rants as indicative of how far left the Democratic party has swung.I understand that she has every right as a grieving mom to make as much noise as she can and expose the outrage of this war,but I believe her ego has moved her beyond that.The freepers love her and will soon attempt to paint all of us as radical by using every stupid thing she says.Flame away,but some of us think she is way over the top.

[Liberal Veteran]

252. If you believe the democratic party has turned far left because,

because of what some idiot right-wing talking head has said or taken out of context as an example of the "average democrat", then there isn't much hope for you anyway.

It is worrying overmuch what "the other side will say" that has driven our part more and more rightward to the point that there a lot of people who can't really see any difference anymore between the two parties.

[sufrommich]

267. I don't know where in my post

you read that I believe the Dem. party is too far left.I was simply saying that you can bet that the r.w. will attribute the silliness that comes from her mouth sometimes,like "occupied New Orleans" or accusing Ford Motor Co. of having blood on its hands because it makes SUVs(that'll go over big with UAW democrats)will be laid in our laps.While you may choose to disagree with me by getting personal and declaring that "there is no hope for me",I would be willing to bet that if you put your ear close to the ground,you will find that the "average"democrat is much more moderate than will probably be to your liking.That doesn't make us ignorant or quasi-republican.

[Liberal Veteran]

275. But that really doesn't matter, does it?

It wouldn't matter if Cindy Sheehan was wearing red, white, and blue marching up and down Main St. with a band singing patriotic songs, they'd make her out to be some kind of "ultra-liberal democrat".

One needs only look at the Clintons. They are about corporate friendly and moderate as you can get, but even those two are painted as whack job ultra-liberal America haters who are only one stop short of being Karl Marx by the rightie talking heads.

The democratic party has moved further and further to the right in their goal of winning over exactly the kind of people you are talking about, but the last time I checked, that strategy wasn't exactly working out too well. It's at the point where we our two-party system is basically the right-wing party and the far-right-wing party.

[sufrommich]

278. But it does matter.

I don't know who you mean when you use the term "the kind of people you are talking about"but I'm talking about the traditional democratic base.Only extreme right wing nut jobs consider the Clintons ultra liberal America haters.Clinton was elected twice and still is a popular ex-president.What I am saying is that we are at a time when most americans consider this a failed presidency and a useless,stupid war.Blue collar people are being squeezed more by the high cost of health care and gas .They are,as a whole,sickened by what they saw in New Orleans and are intelligent enough to realize it is the product of a philosophy of "less is better" government.Why blow an opportunity to pull people back to us by spouting radical buzz words and pretending its the 60s all over again.It's not.All we need to do is point out the obvious without sounding like radicals...I have a feeling that once this administration is through,the last thing people will want is "purists"from either side of the spectrum.That's just my opinion and obviously I can't speak for all Dems,you and I will probably not be able to change each others minds as to how we get out of this mess.But surely we both want an end the the right wing hold on power in our country.

[Tigress DEM]

289. Welcome to DU!!

This post is not typical of a majority that I have been on. For some reason, Cindy's supporters seem to think if you even have one concern about her and don't fully support her, then you are with "them".

Certain issues get like that and I tried to simply get facts and got my ass handed to me a few times. Oh, well.

[derby378]

11. Actually, DiFi did more harm than Cindy...

For starters, DiFi voted for giving Nero a blank check to send our troops and our tax dollars into the black hole that is Iraq.

[Tigress DEM]

103. A LOT of DEMS bought the lie and voted to go to Iraq ....

We were told over and over again that there was an imminent threat and WMD ready to be aimed at US. NOW we understand what a terrible thing has happened, but the documents that proove the lie were witheld from the House and Senate.

There ware the obvious forgeries and the administration coyly failed to mention that the "new" intel they got from the UK was the same old crap that had been debunked.

Now if her voting record is otherwise flawed, I'm listening. It's just that a lot of people were coming from a place of "good faith" in our process and got screwed.

We absolutely know now we can't trust these creeps and the evidence has been building for some time. It's easy to predict the score of a ballgame after the fact. I would hope her voting record has gotten progressively better - if not - then let's look at it closely and take her to task for that. W/O resorting to name calling.

Although, just like Dean does, sometimes this is a good tactic to get the topic out there.

[Zhade]

171. I never believed there was a threat. EVER.

Don't you DARE suggest that everyone was fooled. MILLIONS of us worldwide WERE NOT.

For crying out loud, BUSH STOLE OFFICE, and the Dems trusted him? I want what they were smoking! On second thought, I don't - it was probably crack.

[Tigress DEM]

202. Trusting Bush? Course not. Having the proof he lied didn't come..

soon enough to prevent the reactionary response, though.

Even with a full Mainstream Press lockdown, I knew that going to IRAQ based on 9/11 was a full out sham because Al Queda and Sadaam were not connected.

But for me, with the WMD argument brought out by Colin Powell - who was one rethug I thought had at least 2 brain cells - and no access to proof it was a lie at that time, I figured Bush's assinine behavior had garnered us another enemy.

All the disinformation to sort through and the huge amount of information flowing all different ways.... forgive me if I wasn't as up on everything as you were.

Why is the fact that people are human and make mistakes have people jumping to "they were smoking crack" ? Is it just something you try to throw into conversations or do you really believe it?

[Zhade]

206. Of course I don't believe they were literally smoking crack.

Though it might explain a lot.

You may not have been at DU then, but Powell's lies were debunked here as he was telling them. Plus, lots of us knew Powell's history, from his aid in covering up the My Lai Massacre in Viet Nam to the total control of the press during the first Gulf War debacle.

So a lot of us DID know it was lies, and DID NOT get fooled. Period.

Sorry I got so heated - I'm just tired of the "we all fell for it" meme. I didn't. I have written proof that I didn't. I'm sick of hearing the claim, because it's false and it lets the murderous fascists in the WH off the hook.

Nothing personal intended.

[Tigress DEM]

218. NO offense taken.

But I know that it took me time to catch up and I was pretty doggedly pursing things. So I tend to cut others some slack about what they did know or didn't know and when did they know it until I have proof.

As you can tell I'm a bit of a skeptic and it takes proof to get me going, but once I'm there, look out!

The senators have bills that look like phone books and the rethugs were playing really, really dirty. They called the meetings and if they didn't want a senator there, they "accidentally" forgot to invite, like they did with the press who didn't play along with the farce.

I think it's entirely possible that our internet collaboration has given us a distinct advantage and when we started showing our DEMS we were here for them, they got braver and started kicking up a shit storm.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dbackjon]

15. Nice response

Sheehan is a lady who has gone through a lot, more than any of us can imagine - but she is not a saint, and some of her actions are not well-thought or productive.

Funny how we all critize the Republicans for being parrots, but do the same here.

[BuyingThyme]

25. Is DiFi one of your representatives? She's one of Cindy's.

Do you know what a representative is?

In this case it's one of the people who killed a mother's son...and who continues to support his death.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tigress DEM]

108. She have stock in Haliburton?

Seriously, how has she profited from the war? I really want to know.

The facts rather than the mudslinging would really be helpful.

I'm not supportive of DINO's and a lot of times you can tell them by the trail of the money to them from RNC. Is she one of those? Or has she profited by being able to be "in" with the repukes?

[immoderate]

125. Her husband is a defense contractor.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/22/MN310531.DTL

Army contract for Feinstein's husband
Blum is a director of firm that will get up to $600 million

David R. Baker, Chronicle Staff Writer

Tuesday, April 22, 2003

URS Corp., a San Francisco planning and engineering firm partially owned by California Sen. Dianne Feinstein's husband, landed an Army contract Monday worth up to $600 million.

The award to help with troop mobilization, weapons systems training and anti-terrorism efforts is the latest in a string of plum defense jobs snared by URS. In February, the firm won an army engineering and logistics contract that could bring in $3.1 billion during the next eight years.

--IMM

[Tigress DEM]

139. HOLY SHIT! THANKS!

There is a real conflict of interest and a reason to vote lock step with the repukes.

[immoderate]

143. Yep! Feinstein is useless to us.

--IMM

[Zhade]

174. THANK you.

NT!

[Pastiche423]

138. Her husband, Richard Blum

certainly has profitted from the Iraq invasion! He got a big fat defense contract in 2002.

I have followed DiFi since she became the mayor of my city, after Mayor Moscone was assasinated. She worked well in that capacity, but has gone to the dark side.

I agree w/Cindy on her assessment of DiFi. It surely fits her voting record.

[Tigress DEM]

144. So she was ok for awhile, but turned? That is really awful.

OK, here's a link to her voting record.


http://feinstein.senate.gov/allvotes.html


Let's compare to Boxer, who I know has been very true to DEM ideals.


I can't find her specific record on Boxer's website.

Bills Boxer has sponsored
http://boxer.senate.gov/senate/info_frame.html

Here's roll call votes
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/rollcallvotes.html

[LittleClarkie]

28. She's gonna fall off that pedastal and hurt something, I'm afraid

I'm not even sure SHE wants to be up there. She's just an ordinary woman. I don't think she expects to be treated like Mahatma Sheehan.

[Tigress DEM]

109. When you're a star, don't fart in public, it will be on the news for days.

:eyes:

[converted_democrat]

41. Uhhhh......

:puke:

[Tigress DEM]

111. Keep coming back dbackjon! It gets better.

There is a certain bit of mob mentality that goes on here.

I see you have a whole 115 posts on DU. Welcome to the madness!

You have a lot of moxy and make some good points.

Peace.

[umtalal]

14. You and Fini. can go hang out in a glass bottle. She won't get my vote

[dbackjon]

16. so, you would rather have a Republican in that seat?

Pathetic.

[DancingBear]

26. No, but a real Democrat would be nice

Geesh, these "would you rather have a Republican" responses are so tedious.

How's Lieberman working out for us? You know, the guy who Limbaugh says "if all Democrats were like Joe Lieberman we'd be a lot better off."

What we'd like, you see, are Democrats that actually STAND for something.

DiFi fails that test.

[Tigress DEM]

113. Can we get a few more Conyers and Boxers?

What IS the dirt on DiFi?

All I'm hearing is slams and that's tedious.

Agree with you about Lieberman and "of course" the repuke "we" would be better off with more Lieberman's around.

That's why we need the facts more than the smear. What did DiFi do to piss Cindy off?

[FreedomAngel82]

179. People have posted that her husband

is a contracter who has made lots of moolah from Iraq. Scroll back up.

[Tigress DEM]

204. Got it - thanks. Posts don't go in order all the time. nt

[goclark]

121. When Cindy spoke in Los Angeles

One of the speakers mentioned the name Diane Feinstein and the completely liberal crowd booed so loud that I couldn't believe it!

When Arrianna and Maxine came to the mike, Cindy said something about us needing a new Senator to replace Feinstein and the crowd went wild, clapping and jumping up and down.

I think she said,"What About Maxine?" and the crowd was cheering!

I was shocked.

Maxine said, " I'm not running for anything." and the crowd of at least 500 started screaming ,"Maxine! Maxine!"

[Tigress DEM]

149. Well, I'm sure there are a lot of reasons to support Maxine.

My dad used to say the "Washington" method of electing officials is the best one. IE George Washington didn't want the power, so he was someone who could be trusted with it.

Still, if we are to be the stand up party we need to have the facts along with our opinions, so that we will be totally - totally recognizable as being different from the neocons.

[goclark]

153. As a poster says below Dianne Feinsteinis a neocon

in many respects and Cindy speaks her mind.

She is not held to as high a standard as our elected officials should be.

ROTFL --- Since GW was elected, a;; bets are off for high standards.

He would not know a fact if it hit him.

On thing I do know, when every fan in California hears what Cindy thinks of Feinstein, her words will be FACT and Diann better look out for votes.

[Tigress DEM]

160. Good facts in that post. Shows the ongoing nature of the conflict

of interest that has been alluded to here.

It's just me, but I see GW is a devolved human, an ape as far as I'm concerned and I wouldn't find any comparisson of myself to him as relevant. Not because I am in anyway better than the average person on DU, but because he is just sick, pathetic and worthless.

I have spent 5 years trying not to be shocked when they stoop lower and lower and I haven't been successful. My goal in not going there is to provide some balance against the black hole they have created. Maybe it's tilting at windmills, but I feel better about me when I behave according to my beliefs and not justify my mistakes because theirs are worse.

I would hope fans in California will come up with the FACTS and support Cindy because of them AND because they believe in her. Blind support is simply creepy.

[Zhade]

177. INDEED.

"Would you rather have a Republican in her seat?"

"Who says I don't have one already?"

[Tigress DEM]

205. Now that is funny.

Dry - succinct and to the point.

Touche!

[Zhade]

207. You know, we might butt heads, but you're alright, TD.

:toast:

[Tigress DEM]

212. You are pretty cool yourself, Zhade.

I'm just trying to make some sense out of all this and get real ammmo if we need to fire this DEM.

But I do appreciate your sense of humor in the midst of all this.

People are so hyped about this.

Isn't it great?

[Zhade]

279. Indeed, I admire passion, especially for the right reasons.

I don't hold it against anyone for wanting evidence to make an informed opinion. It's only logical.

Thanks for the compliment, btw. :)

[BuyingThyme]

DiFi is officially a neocon.

Why not let her burn with the rest of them.

[Tigress DEM]

118. How so? I want to know HOW she is a neocon. CAN ANYONE tell me?

tap tap tap IS this thing on?

If she deserves to burn, fine. Give us the dirt. But let's be DEMS and have the facts in front of us when we fry someone and not go off half cocked like the repukes.

[libnnc]

128. here.

<snip>
Framingham-based Perini Corp., which has electricity contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan worth as much as $525 million, is owned by a group of investors that includes Richard Blum, husband of Senator Dianne Feinstein, a Democrat of California who is a member of the Appropriations Committee.<snip>

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/31/study_finds_cronyism_in_iraq_afghanistan_contracts?mode=PF


Hubby makes loads of jack on defense contracts.

[Tigress DEM]

155. OK, so as a member of the Appropriations Committee...

she has ongoing participation and votes on things she benefits from because her husband has these contracts.

Sounds like a neo-con to me.

Thanks for the info!!

:yourock:

[Raksha]

22. Every single time a Democrat makes a strong, memorable statement...

...there will ALWAYS be someone like you coming along and saying they are "doing more harm than good." It absolutely never fails. Wonder why that always happens...

[BuyingThyme]

29. Call it HOWARD DEAN SYNDROME.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Welcome to the internets

We have differing opinions. But that's democracy for ya.

[Tigress DEM]

123. BECAUSE if we don't have the FACTS to back it up...

then we look like repukes. A STRONG MEMORABLE STATEMENT by a DEM should be fact based and those facts should be like Molly Ivins once so graphically suggested once "hung around the neck of the chicken killing dogs" that they are "until the stink gets so bad the chicken killing dogs will never go NEAR a chicken again."

IF DiFI deserves to be made an example of, then let's do it with the facts, not simply by calling names.

The truth is our best weapon. If we use anything less, if we get into simply being nasty, we're just the other guys with differ nt bumper stickers.

[Raksha]

141. Are you saying that Cindy doesn't have the right to an OPINION?

Or to express her opinion? Because that's all it is: OPINION, not FACT. It doesn't purport to be fact, and nobody but a hardcore freeper would so dumb as to mistake "Dianne Feinstein is a white male Republican in a dress" as a statement of fact.

I also don't give a damn if Dems do sound like Repukes, as long as they don't actually lie to prove their point. But when it comes to being nasty, I WANT to sound like a Repuke! Why the hell not--IT WORKS FOR THEM, doesn't it? So why wouldn't it work for us, and why does everyone always say it won't work for us??? I have no interest in taking the high road. I want to kick them while they're down, and keep kicking and kicking and kicking...

Dianne Feinstein is a neocon even if she does have a "D" after her name. Therefore she deserves whatever she gets.

[Tigress DEM]

154. I am saying that Cindy and you and I ALL have a right to our opinion.

However, being nasty isn't a "strong memorable statement", it's being nasty.

Why I am calling for FACTS is because if I personally were to say that someone is a "white male Republican in a dress" I would be able to list off the votes that are the basis of my opinion.

We can be JUST AS ANGRY - I don't have a problem with that.

What I am talking about is baseless name calling that is just making noise rather than sticking the facts around the necks of these people so the stink follows them around until they puke in public and people run screaming away from them by recognizing the repukes for the horrible deeds they've done and the creepy things that they use to base their opinions upon.

You have a real reason to kick someone? Then KNOW WHY you are kicking someone. Otherwise it's just a mob mentallity and no different than the brainless freepers that march lock step.

And if you can simply point out the truth and these people get locked up and you don't have to go down to their level - you get bonus points for a clean win.

I understand the frustration about how the assholes always seem to win, but their methods are just as sick and dangerous as they are, so if we get sucked into that, we lose. If that happens, we're all fucked.


Peace.

[Pithy Cherub]

23. Cindy is absolutely Correct. This Californian WILL NOT vote for DIFI,

who is absolutely noy a politician worth supporting. And yep, she's a Dem, supposedly. So what! Cindy speaks for me!


Self-aggrandizing posters crack me up!

[shance]

46. However, we need someone to run against her.

n/t

[Tigress DEM]

130. When is she up for re-election?

Do you have primaries for her office? I'm really stupid about some points of order in politics. Would there be a choice of more than one DEM offered or is it her or no DEM?

In MN we had a primary that was non-partisan and there were a lot of other parties represented. In fact I voted for a Green Candidate because she was the best, in my opinion, for the office. I wanted the other candidates to take a hint about what is attractive in a candidate. But in an actual election, I'd always go DEM. Just me.

[BigBearJohn]

94. NOR WILL THIS CALIFORNIAN

[Tigress DEM]

133. Good. Why? FACTS people.

Otherwise this thread has no meat and I'll have to go elsewhere.

[ultraist]

265. Are you going to vote for a Republican instead of her?

That's all we need, more Repukes in Congress and in office locally, building up their state from the ground up, so that a Repuke candidate stands a better chance to win the GE.

Of course, that's unlikely in CA, but it is possible, that CA could swing. Then what?

[Tigress DEM]

126. BUT WHY won't you vote for her? Does anyone have even one

real fact that points to DiFi's being a neo-con?

Help me out here. I'm not for DINOs or Republican Lite, but it takes more than someone calling a DEM names for me to get on board. And when the repukes ask, I want to have a valid response because I believe you there must be some reason DiFi has garnered this response, but I deal in FACTS and TRUTH, not smear campaigns.

What is Self-aggrandizing in wanting the best for our party?

[libnnc]

132. making money on defense contracts n/t

[Tigress DEM]

163. Yep. I hear you and thanks again for the good stuff! nt.

[mike_c]

193. she betrayed her constituents re the IWR vote...

...calls to her office were OVERWHELMINGLY opposed, but she voted in favor anyway, citing the same tired rhetoric as Kerry about needing to give the president authority to put pressure on Saddam to disarm. But now it turns out that American intel knew that Saddam had disarmed by 1992 or so, and DiFi is on the senate intel committee. I will NEVER vote for DiFi again.

[Tigress DEM]

210. Well, again, we'd have to throw out most of the DEMS out for that.

And an elected official SHOULD listen to his/her constituents.

I'm looking MORE at the fact that she's on the defense appropriations committee which indicates and ongoing participation and voting pattern on an issue that her husband's company would profit from if she sold her vote to the war party.

That really sounds like neocon behavior to me.

One of my problems, and I don't have the information right at hand, is that the way the Rs managed the votes was really, really sneaky and many of the votes made it impossible for DEMS to do the right things. DEMS would agree to and sign something, but deliberations continued behind closed doors and way into the night in private and things were added after the fact.

It's like DEMS signed a blank check, but if they didn't sign, their vote wouldn't be counted, and they'd get dinged for that too.

That is how a lot of the CAFTA crap got in.

That is how the Energy Bill became a joke.

Remember when John Conyers delivered the 1/2 million signatures to the White House about the DSM? He got stuffed into the basement and the rethugs schedules a record 11 floor votes, so Senators had to run in and out to be there for John and still get their votes in.

Sneaky. Evil. Totally unethical and unprescedented.

And somewhere I read that Niger forgeries were kept from the people who would have recognized them as such.... Would that have been the senate intel committee? I don't know. I thought it was even higher up than that.

I'm not trying to defend DiFi - but I want the truth and real justice. Just finding someone to throw on the fire isn't justice, it's a witch hunt. Ya' know?

[Pithy Cherub]

251. DiFi is indefensible. Medicare, Patriot Act

and the grossly inept and corrupt vote for IWR. If her constituents are better informed than she is, then DiFi should get her self out of the Senate immediately. Blaming it on the republicans and how they will play it is weak, sophomoric and plain stupid. If you can't stand up for what you believe, stay out of politics.

IWR voters need to Admit. Apologize. Atone. An inability to do that is going to lose those Dems many votes in tight races. DiFi, the DINO, does not exist on my ballot.

[Tigress DEM]

290. So do you drink battery acid or something to get so caustic?

Who died and made you the ultimate ruler of the DEMS that if someone has an opinion different than yours that you get to throw them out of politics?

Understanding the reality of what the DEMS faced during the initial vote to go to war with Iraq, doesn't make me weak, sophomoric or stupid. That shit had to be brought to a screeching halt for them to do their job and when they weren't aware of being stabbed in the back, it hurt US too.

Maybe you are too young to know how old fashioned and archaic the general demeanor on the floor of the Senate is, but their are such strict rules of ettiquite there, that having midnight meetings and changing laws substantially after agreeing on it in chambers is breaking ethical rules that most Senators hadn't had to worry about before.

What I'm saying is that DEMS had to adjust to a totally different game than it's been for the last 50 or so years. Like having a football game suddenly go to rugby rules at half time. Senators may be elected officials, but they are human beings too. I believe that and I was defending my beliefs.

Your belief that admissions, apologies and atonment are needed is a valid statement/argument.

Telling me in a snooty superior way that I should get out of politics is nasty, and demonstrates a lack of maturity on your end. I really worry about tolerance as a value for the DEMS with people like you around. I hope we can find a way to resolve our differnces, but we may just have to agree to disagree and part ways.

Peace.

[Writer]

40. I absolutely agree.

I emphatically agree with Cindy Sheehan's peace movement; however, much like Michael Moore (gather 'round, ye popcorn eaters :popcorn:) this does the party MUCH more harm than good.

I have completed academic research into media phenomena like this, and without question, virulent missives and polemics thrown before the American public merely galvanize those who already agree with you, and destroy your chances of attracting anyone to your cause. It limits your scope and ends up hurting your goals. Cindy needs to get back to the basics of why she drove to Crawford in the first place.

[High Plains]

219. What does your academic research have to say about...

Limbaugh and that whole cadre of rightwing radio ranters? All they are is "virulent missives and polemics," and it seems to work pretty well for their side.

[Writer]

292. No it doesn't work at all. Same effect.

There just happens to be more rabid right-wingers than rabid left-winger at the moment.

[leftchick]

80. BS

Cindy calls them like she sees them! Like MOST of us see them! REPUKE LITE!!

Go Cindy!!

:woohoo:

[No Exit]

115. Her son is dead because of a fraudulent war and she "had her moment"???

You obviously have no respect for our service members or for their families. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

[in_cog_ni_to]

142. Give it a rest. Damn. You people did the same thing to Michael Moore

because he had the audacity to tell the world about this criminal administration. Did you lose a son in Iraq? If not, you have NO FUCKING RIGHT to judge anything that woman says or does.

[sufrommich]

235. Well,using that reasoning,

we also have no right to disagree with a pro war activist who has lost a child in the war.By the way,I adore M.Moore.

[meganmonkey]

150. So when is YOUR moment, and

what do you plan to do with it?

:shrug:

[radio4progressives]

186. Sorry.. but you're wrong. Cindy speaks for ME... n/t

[tavalon]

201. How is it inexcusable?

How is she doing more harm than good?

[Mark E. Smith]

262. Agreed

It is unfortunate that someone who has done so much good can participate in such destructive nonsense.

Rule #1: Anything that divides the opposition to the neo-con assault on our freedoms hurts us.

[OhioBlue]

263. i agree

comments like that don't show very much class.

[Warren Stupidity]

282. How dare she out another DINO!

The nerve! Back to the kitchen with her! Is she too old to get pregnant? Well at least take away her shoes.

:sarcasm:

[mmonk]

6. !

:spray:

[slackmaster]

8. That'll get her on the same DiFi crackpot list I'm on

For the last several years, whenever I contact my senator I get the same automated response no matter what subject I wrote to her about:

"Thank you for contacting me regarding gun safety legislation..."

+1 :rofl:

[derby378]

17. She actually sends you an automated e-mail response?

I don't even get that from her!

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods, we should go to the local gun range and perforate some paper targets with AK-47s together.

:toast:

[EFerrari]

60. Hey, we're in the same club!

:hi:

[Raksha]

18. I won't argue with that!

Having Boxer for one of my senators ALMOST makes up for having Feinstein as the other one!

[oasis]

24. That was harsh. Cindy's not running for office but she could use more tact

in her characterization of potential allies.

[DancingBear]

35. Didn't Cindy meet with her?

If so, she has her own frame of reference from which to judge, and is probably correct in her description, predicated on that meeting.

[oasis]

42. If Cindy had said Feinstein "is LIKE a Republican white man in a dress"

rather than saying "IS" I would have no problem with the comment. She's not doing herself any favors in the way of coalition building.

[faithnotgreed]

47. who heard exactly what happened?

i heard it on randis show and basically a woman from california (that had helped cindy at camp casey)
called in and first brought up and described dianne feinstein
as something like a man in a dress

and cindy only added in one word which was either "republican" or "white" but i think it was republican

small detail perhaps but it wasnt cindy bringing this up nor out of nowhere
she added one word to what was a description of ms feinstein by someone else

[libnnc]

50. thank you. that's what I heard too

too bad some people here like to pile on a grieving mother who isn't a paid pundit.

[oasis]

53. "pile on"? Where's the "pile on"? And who's doing the piling on?

:shrug:

[Tigress DEM]

105. It would be good to have actual content in the OP or near the top.

This helps explain things.

It's too bad it wasn't said much sooner rather than harsh judgemental things that simply divide US even further.

No one wants to "pile on Cindy" but we need to know what actually happened in order to make informed decisions about what we will say if these things are brought up because unlike the freepers we don't "do" talking points, we speak the truth and have opinions here.

[oasis]

55. Glad you cleared it up. Perhaps the OP should have provided accurate

quotes before posting.

[Tigress DEM]

164. As long as it gets in, we're doing the DEM thing!

We all learn from our experiences posting.

I like it better when the main facts are in the op too, but sometimes these things evolve.

Can you believe the passion in these responses though? WoW!

Peace.

[Zhade]

189. Nope, from what I understand Feinstein refused to meet with her.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/12/173316/576

[LittleClarkie]

36. Eh, she is who she is. Many here wish our Congressfolks talked like that

I'm not one of them, mind you. But it would be interesting to see what would happen to a Congresscritter who tried it.

[oasis]

49. Suppose Cindy had said that in the presence of John Conyers, Barbara Lee

or any other elected representative on our side? What position would they be put in after she made such a charcaterization?

[LittleClarkie]

61. Yeah, well, I don't think she's worrying about that right now

Like I said, there's a reason Congressfolks don't talk like this most days, much as some here would love it to death. Getting stuff done would become impossible.

[immoderate]

37. Is a potential ally really an ally?

What if your family is heavily invested in defense industries and making a ton of money off of this war?

Considering the circumstances, I think Cindy was being kind. Maybe if we're nice to Feinstein she'll stop voting for the war? I don't think so.

--IMM

[oasis]

52. There's a difference between being "nice" and being civil.

[immoderate]

76. I'll give you this...

Fault Cindy for using a cliche, maybe. I think she could easily have been more harsh. Diane Feinstein supports a war that killed Cindy's son for her own monetary gain. It pisses me off and I haven't lost anybody.

How would you have put it?

--IMM

[oasis]

99. See post #42. (n/t)

[immoderate]

119. Simile is OK, but metaphor is not?

Homey don't play that game.

--IMM

[oasis]

129. "It's not what you say, it's how you say it." (n/t)

[immoderate]

134. "It aint what ya do, it's the way that ya do it."

--An old jump blues tune.

I see what you're saying, but I think the nuance would be lost on Diane anyway.

--IMM

[Skidmore]

66. Feinstein is a potential ally? Since when?

Haven't heard her do much associating herself the left side of the aisle for a while. If she wants to vote with the Rs, then become an R. These DINOs need to hear this type of criticism and tact hasn't worked for a while.

[oasis]

78. If what the OP stated is accurate, Cindy blew any chance of appearing with

Feinstein in public.

[No Exit]

120. How the hell could Feinstein ever be a "potential ally" to one who wants

us OUT of Iraq, when Feinstein (through her husband's company) is making MILLIONS from contracts over in Iraq--contracts awarded to them by the Bush administration??

Feinstein isn't worth kicking out of the ashes. She's just another neocon-allied opportunist.

Cindy Sheehan is a citizen, and as such she does not have that "polish on a turd" quality that professional politicians (think: Tom DeLay) have. And that's a good thing.

[adwon]

39. Doesn't Sheehan intend to run for the Senate?

I wish her luck if she wins. It's not terribly smart to insult the senior members, unless your goal is to be an outcast. Comments like this suggest that's she's unfit for the office. Of course, that assumes that a one-issue candidate is to fit in the first place.

[LittleClarkie]

44. Now that's not something I've heard

In whose seat?

[adwon]

48. I could be mistaken

I thought I saw posts to the effect that she intends to run against Hillary as a Libertarian.

[immoderate]

77. Are you confusing Cindy with Al Franken?

As far as I know, Cindy has not mentioned any political ambitions.

BTW, did John Kerry insult any senior members?

--IMM

[meisje]

45. Cindy's fifteen are about up I say

I guess the money must be drying up and she is trying to stay in the headlines with silly comments

[libnnc]

51. did you actually hear what was said

on Randi's show or are you just reacting 'cause it's Cindy?

[Marie26]

254. Did she say anything to explain this comment?

Like why she considers Fiennstein a Republican, or how she isn't supporting Sheehan's cause? Cause otherwise she's just flinging insults around & it sounds a little like something Rush Limbaugh would do.

[LittleClarkie]

54. Or, she's just being who she is.

Which doesn't necessarily coat her in teflon, mind you. She's not the Pope. She's not infallable. Not everything coming out of her mouth has to be golden, therefore.

I'm certain she's merely speaking her mind. Think it silly, but it seems entirely too cynical to think she's in it for the money or the fame.

[tlsmith1963]

63. Uh...I Don't Think She is Doing This For Fame

How quickly people turn on Cindy. Geez...

Tammy

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wind Dancer]

65. Maybe she is sick and tired of being ignored.

Feinstein is her senator and has refused to meet with her. She has every right, like the rest of us, to criticize any politician that continues to support this illegal war, regardless of their party affiliation. The invasion was based on lies, Feinstein and others know this yet refuse to address those facts. They perpetrate an illusion, Cindy is brave enough to demand the truth.

[radio4progressives]

213. Feinstein is also my Senator but she won't get my vote in next election.

She didn't vote for the war because she thought the BS about the WMD. She voted for the war because her family financially profits from the defense and military contracts her husband's company invests in.

That's Feinstein voted for the war, escorted Rice on the Senate floor during confirmation hearings and will not speak out on the impropriety and illegality of this administrations enterprises in South Asia and the Middle East.

Come to think of it, don't most if not all the DLC'ers have investments (or closely tied to investors) in those regions?

hmmm.

[ultraist]

271. Sure she has a right to say what she wishes

But Cindy has not been ignored. She has met with numerous Dem leaders and had mucho press coverage.

But how will fragmenting our party help us in the long run?

[Wind Dancer]

291. Feinstein should have met with Cindy.

"But how will fragmenting our party help us in the long run?"

Good question. Instead of attacking Cindy for speaking out why not put the blame where it belongs? Cindy is not fragmenting the party, our politicians are fragmenting the party by refusing to listen to us. The majority of Americans do NOT support this illegal war.

We, the people, must come together and demand change. This illegal occupation must end now.

[ultraist]

295. What attack?

Disagreeing with one comment/strategy is attacking? :eyes:

As I wrote in another post on this thread, I have a great deal of respect for Cindy, but that doesn't mean I must agree with her every word.

In fact, there's not a single person on this planet that I could say that I agree with their every move/every word. Not even those I admire the most, could you?

[High Plains]

220. That's really a cheap shot n/t

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MazeRat7]

57. Cindi has had her 15 mins... she needs to go home now.

[stepnw1f]

73. Too Bad (nt)

[No Exit]

122. Bullshit. And if you ever lose a loved one to a FRAUD,

I kind of hope you get the same compassion you're giving Cindy Sheehan.

Her son is DEAD. And he'll be dead a lot longer than "15 minutes".

To ignore that fact is to plant your lips squarely on Bush's ass.

[AntiCoup2K4]

131. The DLC needs to go home now.

Cindy Sheehan didn't enable Chimpy to launch this fraudulent war.

But Diane Feinstein sure as Hell did. Along with Hillary, Bayh, Kerry, and the rest of those fucking sellouts, on orders from that fucking toad Al From.

The DLC needs to go home

To HELL

[High Plains]

221. Ooh, that's twice now.

Do you have anything substantive to say?

[EFerrari]

58. I love this woman.

:rofl:

[tlsmith1963]

59. Oops!

That Cindy!:rofl:

Hey, Feinstein represents my state. And she is totally DLC material. We need people who will stand up to the Republicans. She doesn't do it enough.

Tammy

[shanti]

64. tell the truth and shame the devil, cindy!

n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. The apologists for the pro-war senators are upset with Cindy.

Judging by some of the posts here.

[LittleClarkie]

70. Then again, maybe some folks can be against the war

and also think that Cindy has ceased to be terribly helpful in that regard. You know, the same way you can be against the war and not be anti-American.

If someone is against the war, are they required to also be FOR Cindy? I didn't realize the two were so linked, really.

People should be able to say what they like about the woman without having their anti-war credibility called into question.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. Are people against the war supposed to be for those who voted for it?

Feinstein, Kerry, Lieberman, Clinton, Bayh and the rest with blood on their hands?

[jonnyblitz]

246. well some of us are more deditcated to a cause than we

are cheerleaders for hack politicians just because they have a D next to their name.

[Booster]

69. While I agree with Cindy on Feinstein, Cindy needs to stop

attacking everybody and just stay focused on her original goal. She'll lose everybody this way, but I must say she does have courage.

[gulfcoastliberal]

74. Rip these DINOs a new one, Cindy. YOU ROCK!

Enough of the 5th column! Boot their asses out of the party! We need our own "night of the long knife" - w/o any violence of course. Get these fucking collaborators out!

[Burried News]

75. Before the war, 10,000 constituents contacted Feinstein

imploring her NOT to vote for the war. She acknowledged the communications were more than 10 to 1 against the war.

Feinstein voted for it.

Chew her up Cindy. Once again you've got it mostly right.

[oasis]

81. 10,000 constituents? We're talking about California, not South Dakota.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Burried News]

100. Maybe this is better data.

http://fact.trib.com/1st.lev.wardrums.html

"Democratic U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California voted for the war resolution. Her Washington office admitted that they received 35,000 telephone calls, more than 90 percent of the callers were against unilateral military action in Iraq. Feinstein's office did not keep a count on faxes or e-mails. The calls from her constituency caused Feinstein to issue a statement on why she voted for the resolution. In her statement Feinstein says she believes Iraq will pose a real threat if Saddam Hussein achieves nuclear capability.

California's other U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer, also a Democrat, voted against the war resolution. Her Washington office received 6,000 to 8,000 telephone calls a week in the two weeks before the vote as well as 8,000 e-mails -- 99 percent against the resolution. During the week of the vote when the debate in the Senate was intense, Boxer's office received approximately 11,000 calls -- 98 percent against the resolution. "

[oasis]

102. At a time when 70% of the public believed Saddam had a hand in 9/11.

Edit to say:It was no easy decision.

[Burried News]

93. ON the DAY befor the vote she got 10,000 messages.

As I recollect. See other post for googled inquiry on tally.

[oasis]

112. Post #100. Thanks. I'm no big fan of Diane, but she doesn't deserve to

be called names. If what the OP said is accurate.

[Burried News]

145. I have no problem with your view. I am too far from California

to know where the truth lies. I think Feinstein tried to do what she thought was right - I was disappointed in her vote for war and have two family members who have done three tours in Iraq - with more to come.
I want to support Cindy. I appreciate what she has done and easily accept the few imperfections that have surfaced. Frankly most of my disappointment has come from the men who want to lead us. They are all so afraid of being killed or castrated that they are only in the way.
Peace, here and in the Middle East.

[oasis]

196. Peace.

Yes, it's truly wonderful.

[immoderate]

82. Cindy broke the dam!

Before Cindy, there was no anti-war focus. She can take a lot of credit (but she doesn't) for providing a unity to the anti-war movement. Fifteen minutes indeed. This is not the runaway bride.

--IMM

[yurbud]

84. DiFi kind of like Arnold--liberal cultural window dressing...

but chamber of commerce at heart.

There are really three parties: Republicans, Democrats, and the Chamber of Commerce. The Chamber of Commerce party uses whichever of the other two is more likely to win to do their business. Here in CA, there's not much chance of a Republican winning a Senate seat, so they use a willing host like DiFi to do their business.

I wish we had someone to run against her in the primary--like Cindy.

[Joanne98]

85. thankyou you cindy.........

[democrank]

89. Honestly, I just don`t get it.

Throw rotten tomatoes, call me a leftist freak, but I can not for the life of me understand why Democrats are supposed to clasp their hands over their hearts in utter gratitude for Democratic "leaders" who are so scared about being called unpatrotic that they`ll vote for the Patriot Act without reading it and vote for a war without asking any probing questions.

Some believe that straddling the middle of the road promotes comity. In my opinion, we`ve had a bit too much straddling and have ended up, for the most part, with "leaders" willing to sacrifice basic Democratic principles for a guaranteed invitation to Meet the Press where they can tell America about their "friends across the aisle."

Cindy Sheehan is not only correct, she`s courageous. Some Democrats get nervous when they see raw courage. I guess it upstages the accepted DLC-induced collective nodding.

[BigBearJohn]

96. GOD BLESS YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS. You are 100% right!!!

[Batgirl]

106. I don't get it either

How can this little comedy styling of Cindy Sheehan's cause so much angst and condemnation? Because it's not polite enough? Because someone, somewhere, might find it "offensive"? There's not a single political website I visit where this bit of rhetoric, a deliberately preposterous statement used to make a point, would cause so much as an eyeblink yet it's becoming the norm here to respond with a tremendous bout of teeth gnashing and garment rending.

Unless...perhaps while I was away from the internets for a few hours, the country has been released from the rightwing deathgrip, the bad guys have all been taken away in leg irons and our long national nighmare is finally ended? Because if that's the case, then I could see having all this energy to spend on looking for reasons to be offended.

[goclark]

169. Cindy has a spine, what does she have to lose

She sure has moved this country to see that GW and the war monger need to end this mess.


Before Cindy, that was not happening.

Now even the Republicans are searching for a way out and running for cover.

[AlCzervik]

90. She is also my senator and i agree with Cindy.

[dooner]

97. I'm from California and I say

high five to Cindy Sheehan.

Diane Feinstein has repeatedly betrayed democrats in our state. I would not vote for her again. She might as well be a republican.

[Individualist]

110. Brava Cindy!

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. DiFi should just get it over with and switch parites

[meow mix]

116. im not that fond of my senator DiFI, but WTF do u propose we do

all you critics.. do you prefer our state go republican?
fine, thanks a lot. jerkos.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. Have someobdy challenge her in the primary

and as is my choice is to vote for a repub or a wanna be repub, NO THANKS

I will NOT vote for a DLCers PERIOD

[madfloridian]

140. Who's next for her? She implied Dean was ignorant....

she put Kerry on the Hall of Fame, though he said he would have voted for the war all over again.

I forgot who else is in her hall of fame and hall of shame.

She can make her points without making fun and calling names. The group supporting her said that when Howard Dean blogged about her meeting with her and complimented her greatly....that group said he was just trying to make points.

So take the ones who voted for it out of the Hall of Fame, and try to remember who stood up against it to begin with.

Cindy, keep your own counsel. You were so sincere and powerful, don't let some influence you unduly. Be yourself again.

[WildEyedLiberal]

225. She was "herself" until she criticized Dear Leader Dean

Which is all anything ever comes back to for you. You can't stand the thought that she met with Kerry and liked what he had to say, and understood what he told her about his views on the Iraq War. She clearly didn't get such a positive impression of Dean, and didn't appreciate his need to trumpet his meeting with her, and so spoke out against that. The fact that she could identify with Kerry more than Dean just burns your ass to no end, and that's ALL your hand-wringing about Cindy ever comes down to, period.

Personally, I think what she said about Feinstein was way out of line, and that if she continues in that vein, mainstream Americans (eg, not DUers) will stop taking her seriously. You profess to lament her "name-calling" as well, but be honest. You don't give a shit what Cindy thinks about Feinstein, since she "voted for the war" :eyes: So save the fake outrage, okay? Not everyone feels the need to worship at Dean's altar.

[madfloridian]

243. Kerry vs Dean? No, you did not get my point.

My point was that Dean is not in the position to change what his fellow Democrats hath wrought. He can not do it. Who Cindy related to is not my point at all. She misrepresented what Dean said and used it with a whole group of progressives egging her on.

This worship thing you do whenever you see me post something with the word Dean in it...really needs to stop. It is rather out of control at times.

She was very impressive just as herself, she was powerful, she was sincere. Someone is giving her bad advice about making personal attacks on individuals. She needs to go back to being Cindy, the mother, whom the world loved and embraced. If she becomes Cindy vs Democrats and lets the Republicans off the hook....which she often does...then she will not be as successful.

As I say, I voted for and donated to Kerry, so this is NOT a good Dean vs bad Kerry thing. Your trying to make it into one is rather silly in nature.

Getting the party built will be hard work, and I am so sorry you Kerry folks would rather fight with me than get rid of irrational hate.

We worked hard for Kerry, yet when I point out something true you attribute it to worship. The worship thing is quite overdone, has been overdone a while.

[madfloridian]

244. Your interpretation of what I said is way far off. Please don't do this.

You said this is what I meant: No, it is not what I was saying at all. Didn't any of you get the message from the blog Dean posted about her? No one? No one? His message has been that only the grassroots can change things.....he says "we need more Cindy Sheehans." And she and the groups backing her make fun of that statement. And you simply decided what I said and interpreted it for me.

You said:

She clearly didn't get such a positive impression of Dean, and didn't appreciate his need to trumpet his meeting with her, and so spoke out against that. The fact that she could identify with Kerry more than Dean just burns your ass to no end, and that's ALL your hand-wringing about Cindy ever comes down to, period. (No, that part does not bother me, it bothers me she could make fun of someone who never voted for the war and opposed it. My ass burns not at all. It is not "jealousy" about Kerry.)

Personally, I think what she said about Feinstein was way out of line, and that if she continues in that vein, mainstream Americans (eg, not DUers) will stop taking her seriously. You profess to lament her "name-calling" as well, but be honest. You don't give a shit what Cindy thinks about Feinstein, since she "voted for the war" So save the fake outrage, okay? Not everyone feels the need to worship at Dean's altar.

I care very much what Cindy says. I hate this war. I also hate that you can not see that it is not Kerry vs Dean anymore. You just keep on with this, and it is not necessary at all.

As to worshipping at altars, go back and read the Kerry forum a while. And the Clark groups. The only group which has gone beyond the candidate phase is actually those of us who supported Dean. We have a different goal now, and it saddens me to see the PDA group and many of the supporters of others....withholding support and making fun of us. I am tired of being made fun to.

Supporters of 3 candidates, PDA, and I am not sure of two of the groups, at least many of them, would rather hurt the party than realize we have no dog in this fight anymore. What a shame.

[madfloridian]

283. You said "burns my a** no end" Not nice to say.

That sounds odd you think I am in a "who Cindy likes best" contest with Kerry and Dean.

QUOTE: "The fact that she could identify with Kerry more than Dean just burns your ass to no end, and that's ALL your hand-wringing about Cindy ever comes down to, period."

Actually, the groups behind CIndy are after Dean, not Kerry. They absolutely despise him because they never paid attention to his words during the campaign. The groups backing Cindy thought Dean turned when he said it would be hard to get out of Iraq, "now that we are there." He said that since 2002. They did not do their homework....they failed to tell the truth. Now they are after him.

One of the group even wrote an article called "Is Dean Drunk?" because he did not advocate immediate withdrawal right now to suit him.

No, I am not into any kind of jealousy at all. Once they bring down Howard and the DNC, then they will take care of Kerry. They want 3rd party, or perhaps even anarchy.

No, my a** is just fine.

[WildEyedLiberal]

303. Three replies to one message. That's a new record for you!

I must've hit pretty close to home to inspire such a slew of shrill rebuttals! :crazy:

Oh, FYI - Kerry was not present in this thread, nor was Dean, until you saw the need to compare and contrast them and how Cindy reacted to each of them in your original post. So to claim that I brought them up and "made it into a Kerry vs. Dean thing" is about as false as you've ever gotten. YOU brought Kerry into this; YOU brought Dean into this. If you try to deny that, then you're lying.

Again, three replies, I'm impressed - you don't get that worked up unless something really... burns your ass. Couldn't resist.

[madfloridian]

304. Oh, come on.

I have no clue why you think it necessary, but if it makes you happy, then it is ok with me.

Why you feel it necessary to portray me as such, I don't know. I am not a Kerry Basher. I never have been. I was sincere in criticizing Cindy for doing what she did.

I am really wondering what I have done to make you say these things to me. I read in the Kerry forum that you will defend him to the end. Since I am not a critic of his, I wonder why this is necessary.

I wish you good night, I hope you sleep well. And no, my ass does not burn, as I have not done or said anything but true and real.

Sometimes one wonders.

[fed-up]

147. Another Californian that agrees with Cindy-You GO Girl!!!

Di Fi is another war monger, I also got the form letter as to why she was for additional spending on the war.

Why is everyone attacking Cindy for practicing her right to free speech!

She is just calling a spade a spade.

We need to weed out the false "democrats" from our party and Feinstein is a great place to start.

She voted FOR CAFTA
She voted FOR WAR $$$
She voted for renewing The Patriot ACT
She voted for AARP drug bill

gee, she votes the same way Bush does...

[tx_dem41]

156. And many here at DU cheer on the trashing of another Democrat...

Clinton...Dean...Feinstein...when will your hunger for Democratic blood be satisfied?

[burythehatchet]

158. when democrats start representing the views of their constituents n/t

[tx_dem41]

166. I believe that the fact that Feinstein and Clinton keep winning their..

elections (by large margins btw) means that they are representing the views of their constituents. Quite well, obviously. Would you dispute that? And, please, don't tell me its a Diebold thing.

[burythehatchet]

181. the problem lies in the $$ as always

Primaries are no longer a debate, its about corporate money buying the candidate. The problem is ineffective presentation of choice in the primary.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

203. Diane continues to wins here in CA...

because of the GOP idiots they run against and no strong Dem has stepped up to challenge her. DiFi rode into the Senate on the "Girl Wagon" with Barbara Boxer -- since then, CA Dems have done the old "hold your nose" when voting for DiFi, in other words, voting against the Republican instead of for DiFi.



My god what I would give for another Boxer to run here in CA....sigh...

[Cults4Bush]

188. hmmm probbaly around the same time that some hungering for

the blood of a Mother who lost her son for a pack of lies, ends.

Doesn't matter anyways one whit or another the moderates hate the left wing as much as the psycho bloodshed seeking right. Im sure when the DLC saves the day and maintains the status quo with a Hillary or a Feinstein then you they and most moderate Dems will drop us like a bomb.

They don't give a shit about me my family ro the things that I believe in like getting out of Iraq now instead of sending in more targets to make more traing for terrorist and infuriate the seperate insurgency while they commit some more war crimes here and there.


Its ok though... I've come to the realization that all the "real dems" cant stand the left wing and are quite content with the new middle. Meaning that many of the most tenacious active minded liberals out there are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

In the meantime Im a hunting those who would seek to ban me and further denigrate the label of Liberal, I want to find them before they find me and do what they will do to me as soon as "their" candidate wins.

Yep have to vote Dem no matter what your conscience tells you, blind faith hasn't been this prevalent since the burning times (and it aint the politicos and moderates getting burned).

I know you mean well tx_dem but I'm sorry Im tired of being threatened by the left and the right for expressing true honest and factual emotional responses. Lib Dems have as big a seat at this party as anyone and just because we know that are party is as easily corrupted as the other guys doesn't make us blodthirsty, it makes us realistic.

Also Cindy is I believe an Independant so she should not be bound by the same party loyalty that apparently every true Dem is supposed to have.

Of course I know this is all opinion as is whatever you'll say back to me as is almost this entire thread. Nothing changes and all of us left wingers will be out of your hair after the elections (though some will probably be gone before that).

[the_spectator]

227. Yeah. At least Robespierre remembered to

have Louis and Marie-Antoinette executed before he really started wiping out his fellow Revolution's Children. Could some of you agree to removing Bush and major Republican Congresss-critters before we start purging the Dems?

[ultraist]

264. Yes, we should focus on removing Repukes first and foremost

Tearing down Dems is a losing strategy. We cannot afford to lose one Dem during midterms. In fact, we MUST make some serious gains to take back Congress or we are really fucked.

I wish Cindy would focus on shredding the real destructive force, the Repuke party.

Before anyone flames me and claims I have no right to disagree with anything Cindy says, because I didn't lose a son, let me say that Cindy has done a lot for the anti war movement and I have a great deal of respect for her, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with her every word.

[Zhade]

157. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

YES! It's so true!

She totally NAILED that war profiteering Margaret Thatcher lover!

[Ladyhawk]

162. I agree.

:shrug:

Maybe it wasn't the best way to make the point, but DiFi is a DINO and we Californians should look into a way to replace her with someone who represents our interests.

[leesa]

180. Absolutely correct! How much did you make off the Iraq War Dianne?

[Solly Mack]

182. I STILL stand with Cindy Sheehan.

[depakid]

191. Feinstein's record speaks for itself

Sheehan's only pointing out what would be obvious to most anyone who cared to take a look.

At best, the woman's actions reflect an old school, pre-delusional Republican- like a lot of today's "new" (and impotent) Democrats do.

[onenote]

234. wrong

What's delusional is to equate DF's overall voting record with that of a republican. Sure, if you want to pick one vote or even one issue, maybe you can find things to criticize. But overall? Not even close. Check it out: http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0103103

onenote

[depakid]

236. Overall- looks a whole lot like a Rockefeller Republican

From the days before Republicans went delusional.

We had quite a few like that in Oregon- Mark Hatfield & Bob Packwood on the national scene were kind of like that, though they sort of got tainted by the party's slide into right wing extremism.

Jacob K. Javits, "Mac" Mathias and John Heinz are some others you might be familiar with.

DiFi fits right in with them (as did Bill Clinton, btw).

[onenote]

238. accepting that characterization, would you agree

that Rockefeller republicans aren't what Cindy had in mind when she made her statement?

onenote

[Hell Hath No Fury]

195. This San Franciscan/Californian says "Thank you Cindy!

Cindy is only stating what San Franciscans have known since DiFi was first Mayor here -- she is all about the business and center left on social issues, primarily because she couldn't have ever gotten elected in SF without that.

If I remember correctly, she ran against another Dem here for Mayor, George Moscone, a real liberal, and lost. She only became Mayor because he was assasinated and she was next in line as Head of the Board of Supervisors. The next election she did win but only because the other candidate was a Republican -- her political career would have ended had it not been for the loss of Moscone.

She has ALWAYS been a pro-choice/pro-gay rights step away from being an old school Republican.

ALWAYS.

Cindy, you keep telling the truth, no matter who the hell tries to shut you up!! :loveya:

[tedzbear]

208. Cindy is right!!!

DF is a traitor.

[onenote]

211. Cindy is wrong

Suggesting that DF is the equivalent of white Republican male is an absurdly ignorant remark. Disagree with DF on the war, disagree with her on this that or the other. But check her voting record. She scores 95-100 from organizations like ADA and 5-10 percent from organizations like the Amer. Conserv. Union. I hate the war, but I'd rather have DF in the Senate than any "white Republican male."

onenote

[slybacon9]

286. not if they killed your son for nothing.

you'd come at anyone who voted for this war with both barrels. fuck all other issues.

[dxstone]

214. I LOVE this woman...

And I read this entire thread (whew!), and I've just gotta say, I don't get this attitude of those who want to criticize her... such excessive timidity and caution and obsessive attention to manners and graciousness seems awful strange in the face of the neocon onslaught on all life on the planet of these last five years...
Maybe you critics aren't living in the same world as I am...

Yes, yes indeed, let's not be TOO pushy... let's back off... after all, this administration has PROMISED us ETERNAL WAR, and they seem to be delivering; I guess there's no rush to end such a war... we have all the time in the world!
JESUS CHRIST ON CRACK, MAN!

Tragically, through no fault of her own, Cindy Sheehan has found herself in the very epicenter of the struggle against the war, and against these utterly evil FUCKERS who are now running the whole show, and ruining it ALL... and y'know, there are many other mothers out there like her, who've lost sons and daughters for a lie and for the personal profit of already-obscenely-rich fascists; but the main difference between those nearly 2000 other grieving mothers and her is that she remains somehow unbowed; her loss did not weaken or destroy her but empowered her, at least for the time being... and I for one am GLAD she is still unafraid to speak her mind and to put the hard questions to power that the media WILL NOT TOUCH...
This woman is trying very hard to take this terrible personal tragedy and make SOMETHING of good in it; how anyone who is anti-war can criticize her?... it's just such a STAGGERING concept...

So PLEASE...
THAT little jab to an OBVIOUS DINO was TOO EXTREME for yas?
That wasn't harsh at all... you wanna see HARSH?

FEMA-NAZIS!!!
http://presidentevilonline.com/femanazis.html

(WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC & DISTURBING &
REALLY QUITE REALISTIC-LOOKING SATIRICAL IMAGERY!!!)

Don't say I didn't warn yas...

[gardenista]

216. That phrasing is beneath her. She has jumped the shark. nt

[the_spectator]

226. Sharks have definitely been jumped.

There's a great argument to make that Feinstein is a too-rightward Dem for a liberal state like California. But to make it in THIS way? Questioning her femininity as though DiFi is some kind of Coulter-creature? Come on, Cindy! Most of us don't keep that little-6-year-old-girl voice through middle age so easily!

Savaging Hillary was pretty bad, and I was a little taken aback by her comment soon after Katrina about how U.S. Armed Forces should be removed from "occupied Iraq" and "OCCUPIED NEW ORLEANS" but those were just baby-shark jumps, for practice I guess.

[the_spectator]

228. Plus, why does she have to say a Republican WHITE Man?

So Cindy's trying to say DiFi is a Republican; fair enough.
And she's trying to say that DiFi is a Man. Beneath her, really.
But why a "white" man? Isn't DiFi white already? Why restate this?
Or do "Feinsteins" and our other Hebrew brethren not quite count as "white" in Cindy's blond-haired California world? Hmmmm?

[Fla Dem]

301. ITA what's the whole point of emphasizing white man. This totally

blows her credibility. Sounds like just another snarky comment.

[shance]

217. Cindy is correct .Dianne Feinstein and husband are profitting from death

chaos and tragedy off of our American troops and the most innocent Iraqis.

They apparently are making millions upon millions of our tax payer dollars off of this needless and illegal war. It is beyond terrible frankly.

It is truly sickening to see such amazingly immoral greed. I wouldnt have expected it from her.

Its time for Dianne Feinstein to step down. She is a War profiteer as well.

[Hardrada]

224. DiFi has always been a DINO.

Please may she soon be replaced. Isn't she about 70 or so by now anyway? No need for a Senator for a Life Term.

[G_j]

223. Cindy is right

and those who want her to shut up obviously are not confined to one party.

[Vinca]

229. Is Cindy a Democrat?

She might be right and I might agree with her, but this is where Democrats screw themselves. Republicans came to power by supporting each other come hell or high water. They've had both and the rats are just now starting to move to the edge of the ship. We ought to stop airing our dirty laundry in public until we have a majority in Congress and a bona fide president in the White House. I love Cindy, but for the sake of the 2006 vote I wish she'd shut up.

[G_j]

242. Her TOP priority is bringing the troops home

and ending the occupation. That it what motivated her through the death of her son to become an activist. I believe Dems who share that goal will of course have her support. To expect her to put politics over the convictions that have made her such a powerful lightning rod for the war, is unrealistic and unfair.

[Vinca]

250. Cindy's campaign to bring the troops home is more likely

to succeed with Democrats in the majority in Congress.

[G_j]

253. she would never be a lightening rod for those who want the war ended

If she put politics first, we would probably have never even heard of her. Cindy WHO?
There are PLENTY of people who can and do campaign for Ds.
I say let her do her chosen task of speaking for people who need representation and are not getting it from the majority of politicians.

[jonnyblitz]

247. yeah too bad she wasn't a cowardly DEM. please

how fucking lame. :eyes:

[shance]

249. Cindy is an American.

Just like most of us here at DU.

Political politics are irrelevant when young kids are needlessly being killed and their futures are being ruined because of Washington's insatiable greed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

230. I Give Up

DemocratSinceBirth gives up...


I need a new handle....


The internecine fighting is killing us.....


Adios amigo........

[ultraist]

269. Oh, no you don't!

You cannot give up that easily. Come on now. ;)

[Cookie wookie]

231. Feinstein's voting record score card

109th Congress:
Kennedy Amdt & Education Budget Resolution
Feinstein 50%
Boxer 100%

Confirmation of John Roberts - YES

I heard the Randi program. What I thought about Cindy from the program was this:
She isn't a Democrat or a Republican. Randi even said she's tried to influence Cindy, but no luck. Cindy lost her son and wants to stop the war. She cuts right to the core of every issue. For instance, she said what we all have to at least think, whether we like it or not, that the Democrats who voted for the war knew there were no WMD. What she said was, "We knew," and something like are we supposed to think we knew and they didn't? That is so true. I fight that desire to blind myself to it, but it has to be true.

Cindy has no need to defend any candidates. I was thinking about what she said she's going to do, tie herself to the fence outside the White House and get arrested. She suggested everyone do that in their states. My God! I am not doing that. I'm worried that I would lose my job. Actually I feel I most certainly would lose my job if I missed work because I was in jail. And financially, lawyers, trying to fight convictions in court. She is making an incredible sacrifice for all of us who oppose this war and for all the kids fighting it and for all the innocent people being killed in it. What it tells me, as someone who has experienced the death of a child, is that she has died too, she's lost her life for herself and the cause is the way she survives day to day.

Unless someone is willing to make the sacrifices she is making, who of us has the right to criticize her, in particular when it comes to fears that she'll harm Democrats?

Frankly right now is exactly the time for discussing who should be in and who should get the boot. If we have Democrats who don't serve us, we need to be looking for new candidates to run against them. But actually that would take work by citizens. Maybe it's easier to sit back and defend the indefensible than to get out and throw out of office those who don't live up to the principles on which our nation stands.

In Georgia our democratic party is pathetic, horrible. They weren't even bothering to get behind and fund a viable candidate for secretary of state for the 2006 election. They were just going to let the republican candidate roll into the office (he was the sponsor of the draconian voter id bill in 2005) and take over the diebold electronic voting machine system. But thanks to, in part, the work of one voting activist in georgia who got the attention of a candidate, we now have a viable Democratic candidate in the race, Scott Holcomb, who says he is going to work to get our votes back from diebold:
http://www.scottholcomb.com/

Don't defend bad dems, replace them now, before it's so late that you have to vote for another bad one again because you have no choice.

[onenote]

233. DF's real voting scorecard, not selective

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0103103

She's not "perfect" -- not one Democrat is. But based on her overall record, Cindy's attempt to equate DF with "Republican male" senators reflects either incredible ignorance or a serious case of delusion.

onenote

[Cookie wookie]

237. I agree that we have to look at the record

of candidates so we can make informed decisions about whether they represent our interests and the interests of democracy in the US. And, thanks for the link, as I searched for that and couldn't remember what the name of the site/org was where the info is so comprehensive. I was cherry-picking off the top from what I found, which isn't fair. However, I must say that the vote by any dems for Roberts galled me immensely.

And you are right, after looking at Feinstein's record, she gets about an 80-85% score for voting with Dems on issues, so Sheehan appears to be wrong with her description of Feinstein, with the exception of the issue that is Sheehan's only focus, the war. Her wrath is directed toward anyone who supported/supports it.

[Cults4Bush]

256. Exactly! and thanks again! n/t

[Cults4Bush]

255. 100% dead on best post on Cindy in the last few days!!

My gods thank you or saying so well and without hyperbole that which I'd have loved to if not for the kneejerk of my high emotions on this issue.

I'd also like to address this crap that comes up from the anti Cindy-ists and the seemingly new middle centrists about Iraq being a single issue for so many of us.

The Iraq Invasion and Occupation is not a single issue and anyone who says it is being an outright hypocrite, or is ignorant of the multiple far reaching (both in time and geography effects) of the actions around that disgusting greedy debacle.

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jose Diablo]

241. She knows

Cindy has seen the light. I don't know where people get the idea our party is the peace party. Getting us in wars is a bi-partisan activity. The hawks are on both sides of the aisle, thats why an anti-war stance is so hard. It becomes 'the people' against the government.

There are few agents of the government that are really against war. Many of the agents make the claim to be against war, but look at how they vote. Some may say they were put in a 'political' situation so they had to vote how they did. Excuses, excuses, none of them have any risk in any war, and they have much to gain. How many of these people have sons or daughters serving? So what if a few soldiers get killed. For ones that died, the politicians will be able to gather around their coffins and make speeches about how bad it is. The politicians feed on the death in war. It costs these guys nothing. They do not pay the price for war and of course, war is profitable, for the wealthy.

Cindy is calling out all of them, as she should.

[jmatthan]

245. What is the "Noble Cause"?

If any of you or DiFi have the answer to the question that Cindy is asking, could you please post it here.

Cindy is not pushing a Democratic Party Agenda. She is NOT a politician, she is a mother who lost her son and does not want any other mothers to lose theirs for THIS "Noble cause" which no one knows.

That is not being egoistic.

Let Bush or the Democratic Party members, like Paul Hackett, Gen. Wes Clark, or DiFi tell Cindy and us what that "Noble Cause" is and I am sure she will go home like the rest of us, IF WE ACCEPT the answer.

Rather, these people are still espousing WAR and death from their political high horses.

"Col. Wilkerson destroys US Army"

http://jmpolitics.blogspot.com/2005/10/col-wilkerson-destroys-us-army.html

Anyone who listened to Col. Lawrence Wilkerson (the link to the transcript and the video can be found in the above link) knows what he said about the US Army. And any Democrat politicians, such as Hillary Clinton. who still supports this band of sycophantic killers who calls itself the US Army, should be dropped by peace loving people.

Col. Lawrence Wilkerson shouts about the Americans being ashamed in the future - not so, every American should be ashamed NOW. And that is what Cindy is showing up NOW.

Viva Cindy and thank you for speaking on behalf of the citizens of this world.<p>

[Neil Lisst]

248. I'm against the war, but I will not attack Dems who are for it.

I am always troubled by Dems who aren't really Dems, but Dems as long as all their views dominate the party.

Some Dems favor the war. Accept it. If they represent YOU, in your district or state, then by all means use your political power to impact them as you wish. But using the war as a litmus test is dumb. All litmus tests are dumb. They get us presidents like Bush and Supreme Court nominees like Miers.

This one is easy. Diane Feinstein is a Democrat in the US Senate, and she supports this party. As long as she does, she has my support, and that's true if she personally drops bombs in Iraq.

[bluedog]

257. many Democratic Senators were "duped"

as were the people of this country......many people have since changed their minds about this invasion of Iraq.esp after the truth came dripping out.........ask the Senators now.if they knew what they SHOULD have known then.if they would have voted the same way....

I don't know which party Cindy belongs too.....but lately all I have heard is that she is attacking the Democratic party........Fine.she has an opinion...let her speak.and then back away...because many independents will link her to any disarray this party has.....C

Cindy and Donna Brazile have both made some comments about this party......and some people defend both......this is what is tearing our party up the middle.......we are not as united as the GOP....they hang on to each other through thick and thin......and you all know it..Flame away....I cannot not see this attack as anything but "division" of our party.

[Neil Lisst]

266. I opposed the war before the war, and every day since.

I am also very disappointed that the Democratic leadership abdicated on Iraq in fall, 2002, and approved Bush's war powers. That was a mistake.

However, this is now. I judge them by how each conducts himself or herself now. I'm not happy with Joe Lieberman, but to compare him to Zell Miller is unjustified.

I'm a Dem who believes intraparty fights are seldom worthy. I chide all segments of the party who engage in such activities. When you've lost both houses of congress, the presidency, and the courts, you have no business engaging in quests for ideologic purity in the elected officials.

There is a chronic disrespect for democracy among some members of the left who pose as progressives. There is nothing progressive about wanting an elected official in rural Montana to vote the way an urban person in a coastal city thinks is properly democratic. Each elected official has a duty to represent his district properly.

[ultraist]

268. Yup. Fragmenting our party will only weaken it.

The focus should be on tearing down the Repuke party. Why are we doing their work for them?

Why can't we focus on ways to strengthen and unite our party? Or do we want to lose again; not take back Congress in 06 and the WH in 08?

[Marie26]

270. Feinstein on the war

I think if you look at the record, it seems hard to argue that Feinstein was a major supporter of the Iraq War. Instead, she initially opposed a pre-emptive war against Iraq. However, her feelings changed once she received "evidence" that Iraq was seeking uranium for nuclear weapons (the infamous claim that Bush later used in his State of the Union). This claim was apparantly key in changing the minds of many Senators - and explains why Bush & co. were so desperate to stop Joe Wilson from debunking it. Maybe she had another motive, but it does seem like she was duped along with many other Democratic leaders.

Timeline:
"Washington — Sen. Dianne Feinstein took to the Senate floor Thursday to argue that a pre-emptive attack to oust Saddam Hussein would be positively un-American unless President Bush produces evidence linking Hussein to terrorist attacks against the United States. "America has never been an aggressor nation unless attacked, as we were at Pearl Harbor and on Sept. 11, or our interests and our allies were attacked," Feinstein said. "We have never initiated a major invasion against another nation-state, which leads to the question of whether a pre-emptive war is the morally right, legally right, or the politically right way for the United States to proceed." - San Francisco Chronicle, Sept. 25. 2002.

"There is no evidence that I have seen that indicates there is an imminent threat," Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said on CNN's "Late Edition." There is time to build international support for U.S. action, she said. AP - Sept. 30, 2002

Feinstein explains vote for Iraq War on the Senate floor, Oct. 10, 2002:
"If the past is prologue, this record means that arms inspections, alone, will not force disarmament. The great danger is a nuclear one. If Saddam Hussein achieves nuclear capability, the risk increases exponentially and the balance of power shifts radically in a deeply menacing way. Evidence indicates that he is engaged in developing nuclear weapons... And we cannot let Saddam Hussein become a nuclear power. And, so, it is my intention to vote yes on the resolution before us."

Intreview by Wolf Blitzer with Scott Ritter, WMD inspector, on the President's false claims that Iraq was seeking nuclear weapons:
Blitz: No great surprise there, Scott, what you're going to tell us. But tell us right now what you think of this uproar here in Washington over how this one line got into the president's (State of the Union) speech? Is it just an honest mistake that happened?

SCOTT RITTER, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: No, it's not an honest mistake. It's part of a larger effort of deception that was, you know, taken by the president, by his administration in regards to justifying this war with Iraq. It's not just the nuclear issue, although that's the one that got the majority of the senators and congressmen to change their vote back in October to support this war....

BLITZER: But Scott, reference to the nuclear sale, if you will, of uranium from Niger to Iraq, that occurred in January after the October vote. So it wasn't specifically designed to get senators and congressmen to support the resolution.

RITTER: Will, actually, Wolf, you're wrong on that one. That piece of information, that intelligence was peddled by the CIA, in behind the door briefings, to senators and congressmen in late September, 2002, and it was that information amongst others, including the now what we know to be fraudulent claim that aluminum tubes were going to be used in a centrifuge program, that got many senators, including Dianne Feinstein, who sits on the Intelligence Services Committee or sat on the committee to change their vote. So it was just part and parcel of a larger problem.

BLITZER: Yes, but I was suggesting that the State of the Union address came after the congressional votes in the House and the Senate.

RITTER: Well, the State of the Union address is when the president made his case to the American people, and he perpetrated the fraud to the American people at that time. But this fraud was perpetrated to Congress back in September using the same information.

CNN transcript, July 11, 2003, http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0307/11/wbr.00.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

272. Anyone that easily "duped" is too dumb to be a senator.

Let alone president.

[ultraist]

277. Oh, sure. Let's just dump 22 Democratic Senators

And let the Repukes control the Senate for decades. That's brilliant.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

280. How about throwing the accomplices out and electing progressives?

Instead of giving them a pass for backing Bush and his war.

[philly_bob]

258. I appreciate 'outing' DINOs

Not that I like the name-calling. But I want to know who they are.

But I think the standard has to be much broader than their vote on the Iraq war resolution or their current position on Iraq. Iraqi issues very complicated by lies, past blunders, ignorance.

Decide based on Bankruptcy, Energy, Budget, judicial nomination issues.

(DINO: Democrats-In-Name-Only.)

[Cults4Bush]

260. Well good for you but Cindy is not a Dem and to insist that all of us

backstab her just to support dems that hate us as much they do the right ostensibly (until votes or contributions are counted) is BS. Or maybe you were insisting that even though Cindy is not a Dem she is beholden to our party no matter what because we have a few people who knew that this war was wrong from the get go, who kne wthat Bushco would use any reason they could to attack Iraq, who Knew that Bushco would use the IRW as a pretext for an illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of a sovereign country. It was all lies and if so many of us knew it why the hell didn't DiFi and Clinton.

Also I see very little difference in blind faith no matter who it is coming from. The war is not a single issue, and truly I think your inference that it is some sort of litmus test is "dumb". Like we are not suppose to be able to use war crimes and attrocities, loss of world standing... hell the greatest crime the US has ever commited as a moral marker on who we might vote for?

People that insist that Dems lockstep are coming off as trying to force other Dems like me out of the party. Too fuckin' bad, Im here to stay and Im here to bring the party back from right of center, the new middle and all that other shit that makes people think that the old rules still apply. My party to and I am going to beat up the moderates as much as they beat up the left wing and compare us to that murderous bunch of psychos on the far right.

You dont have to like Cindy.. Im sure she knows that so many fairweather folks would swing away from her I think that is a good thing actually. Cindy has her own path and she is not a Dem so quit trying to hold her accountable as if she is supposed to be some blind faith party hack.

[Cookie wookie]

299. "I'm here to bring the party back...."

I'm with you, Cults4Bush. The democrats I want us to find and elect will follow the kind of democratic ideals expressed by John Kennedy in his Inaugural Address. Sheehan is our John the Baptist calling out from the desert against immoral and unjustified war. She's put a glaring spotlight on leaders of both sides who are too jaded, weak or corrupt to struggle with and find the moral highground on national defense. No one says that this is an easy struggle any more now than it was when Kennedy was struggling with finding a path through the minefield of the communist threat in the 60s. But we do have to hold everyone responsible, republicans, dems, all our political leaders. It's our job to take them to task when they are failing us and to bring the power of the people to bear on finding and charting a new course.

"Now the trumpet summons us again—not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are—but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation"—a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself."

John Kennedy, January 20, 1961
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres56.html

[G_j]

261. All litmus tests are dumb?

what if mine was, 'I won't vote for anyone who supports selling children into slavery'?

or, 'I won't vote for anyone who supports genocide'?

What you propose is politics that is completely amoral.

Why bother?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

273. Support the accomplices? What a principlied stance.

Kinda like, "The other guy opened the safe, I just helped carry the money out and drove the getaway car."

One of my Dem senators voted for the war and is up in '06. I'll be voting Green.

[oasis]

274. You'll be voting Green. Surprise, surprise.

:wow:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

281. Why do you find that surprising? A lot of people will vote against the wa

Rather than toe the party line and mumble the "not as bad" mantra.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

296. I'm with you - I don't put the political party first

I put ideas first. If my party doesn't support the ideas that I value, that's where my party loyalty ends. I guess I'm a disloyal a-hole for that but I would prefer not having to vote for someone like Feinstein. I see her as a liberal on social issues but a conservative on fiscal and international issues.

[Liberal Veteran]

276. Why is a litmus test so very wrong?

Take the fact that I am gay man. Do you honestly believe I am not going to get out their and bite the head off any democrat who believes my civil rights are secondary and that I should sit quietly in my closet?

Absolutely not.


Some issues are deal-breakers. Or put into more personal terms, it's like saying "Well, yeah, my boyfriend hits me once in awhile, but most of the time he is so nice and charming and buys me good things and we have great sex".

Some things ARE important enough to be deal breakers, and for many democrats, continuing to enable the warmongering party of the right is a deal-breaker.

[Raksha]

285. Very good analogy. Some things really are deal-breakers...

and there is NOTHING wrong with litmus tests, especially when your core values are at stake. Also, about 60% of the population now believes getting involved in Iraq was wrong, as some of us knew from the beginning. That's a majority, and yet NEITHER of the two major parties is willing to go on record as the anti-war party? There is something very wrong with that picture!

I've read through most of this thread, and I'm not one of those who believes the Democrats keep losing elections because we don't stand together like the Repukes, because we don't stay on message or have party unity. Too many of those who keep screaming about the lack of party "unity" are trying to unite us around the WRONG message, one that is a fundamental betrayal of our core progressive values. That will never happen, because too many of us remember what the Democratic Party is supposed to stand for, and used to stand for, and we will never unite around anything else.

[Outer_Limit]

284. Your last sentence is sickening

[Cookie wookie]

298. self delete

[Cocoa]

293. I can't picture Feinstein in a dress

she's wearing a suit every time I've seen her.

[walldude]

297. I have some kind bud.. maybe you should all take a toke

and chill out. Cindy is what she is. She has more right than most to do what she is doing, you don't have to like it but you do need to respect it. And this whole calling names thing is a really stupid arguement, if Cindy wants to make fun of someone or call them names, whether or not you agree with her position you should respect her right to do so considering what she has given to this country...

[Kickin_Donkey]

300. Fascinating thread ... all 300 posts (so far) ...

Might as well put in my 2 cents ...

As a Californian, I go with Cindy Sheehan. She tells it like it is.

I'm so sick of all the sellout Democrats like Feinstein and the milquetoast Dems who always insist we have to be polite -- or the Republics will be mad at us. Fuck 'em. Being too polite and decorous and "dignified" has got us where we are today -- run over.