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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 07:00 PM
Original message
BBV - who is Jim Dixon of AAPD?
(American Association for People with Disabilities)
He did an interview on KPFK "Access Unlimited" today - a program for the physically challenged hosted by a Shaun Casy O'Brien (sp?) This is not the first time he has been on this particular program.

BBVers and I quote..are "clowns scaring the public" perpetrating a "crime against democracy".."not one documented case of election fraud" (I'm paraphrasing here)with electronic voting machines but hundreds with paper ballots. All those putting out this "misinformation" have "connections to corporations" - he then mentioned Avi Rubin whom he or the host said should be "put in jail". He/the host of the show said that HAVA mandates a paper trail and that a voter verified paper trail is "redundant"..

So BBVers what's the dealio on this person..can't seem to find out much about him and how he came to his position on AAPD? Thanks for your input..
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here's an archived thread on the subject.....
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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. thanks PP - this man makes me so damn mad - the show is so
Edited on Tue Oct-14-03 07:20 PM by phoebe
biased to this man's way of thinking that I want to pull my hair out when I hear this special brand of garbage spewed forth..I also forgot to mention that he sang the praises of SAIC as "trustworthy" and Maryland for buying the EVM's..:puke:

However, the info. doesn't tell me who he IS and how he got there..anyone got any further info?

on edit: spelling, rampant thoughts and the like..
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Well, let's see what we can find out from.....
.....a Google search for "Jim Dixon", "National Organization on Disability". :evilgrin:

Here's the contact information for his organization, (I say 'his' because a number of links to articles about voting problems for the disabled refer to him as "Jim Dixon of National Organization on Disability")

National Organization on Disability

910 Sixteenth Street,
N.W., Suite 600
Washington, DC 20006
Phone: (202) 293-5960
Fax: (202) 293-7999
TTY: (202) 293-5968
Email: ability@nod.org

OMFG! Check out who their "HONORARY CHAIRMAN" is!!! :evilgrin:

About N.O.D.: Who We Are

Board of Directors

Date: 01/01/2003

HONORARY CHAIRMAN

President George H.W. Bush



DIRECTORS

Michael R. Deland
Chairman

Christopher Reeve
Vice Chairman

Alan A. Reich
President



Arlene E. Anns
Former Publisher
The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

Phillip E. Beekman
Retired CEO
Hook SupeRx, Inc.

Henry B. Betts, M.D.
Past President/Medical Director
Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago

Bertram S. Brown, M.D.
Forensic Medical Advisory Services

John M. Derrick, Jr.
Chairman and CEO
Potomac Electric Power Company

Richard M. DeVos, Sr.
N.O.D. Founding Chairman
Retired President, Amway Corp.

Brooke Ellison

Stephen L. Feinberg
Chairman and CEO
Dorsar Investment Compnay, Inc.

John D. Firestone
Partner
Secor Group

Hon. Bruce Gelb
Bristol Myers Squibb

Stephen L. Hammerman
Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters
New York City Police Department

Louis J. Hutchinson, III
CEO
Crunchy Technologies

I. King Jordan, Ph.D.
President
Gallaudet University

Peter B. Kovler

William P. Kupper, Jr.
President and Publisher
BusinessWeek

Len Lauer
President
Sprint PCS

Harold W. McGraw III
Chairman, President and CEO
The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

Hon. Thomas Menino
Mayor, City of Boston
President, U.S. Conference of Mayors

Itzhak Perlman

Jeffrey P. Reich
President and CEO
Bridge Street Capital Management

Kenneth Roman
Former Chairman and CEO
Ogilvy & Mather

David A. Roosevelt
President
Troystar

E. John Rosenwald, Jr.
Vice Chairman
Bear Stearns & Co. Inc.

Alan Rubin
Former President
National Park Foundation

Richard J. Salem, Esq.
Attorney
Salem, Saxon & Nielsen, PA

Humphrey Taylor
Chairman, The Harris Poll
Harris Interactive, Inc.

Jack Valenti
President and CEO
Motion Picture Association of America, Inc.

A further search of the doesn't show him either. :shrug:

N.O.D. Staff

Eric Abalahin
Web Manager
handles website inquiries

Glynnis Breen
Development Consultant
handles donation inquiries

Elizabeth A. Davis
Director, Emergency Preparedness Initiative
handles emergency preparedness inquiries

Michael R. Deland
Chairman

Charles Dey
Vice President & Director, Start on Success Student Internship Program

Mary Dolan
Vice President & Director, World Committee on Disability

John Hershey
Administrative Officer
handles Harris Survey orders and general inquiries

Connie McCracken
Executive Assistant to the Chairman

Tracey Davis McDade
Consultant, Start on Success Program
handles SOS Program inquiries

Alan A. Reich
President

Catherine Reid
Executive Assistant to the President

Nancy Starnes
Vice President & Director, Community Partnership Program (CPP)
handles Community Partnership Program (CPP) and National Partnership Program (NPP) inquiries

Paul Stilp
Vice President & Chief Financial Officer

Brewster Thackeray
Vice President & Director of Communications
handles media inquiries
handles CEO Council inquiries

Lorraine Thal
Program Officer, Religion and Disability Program
handles Religion and Disability publications orders

Ginny Thornburgh
Vice President & Director, Religion and Disability Program

I'll be sitting down to dinner soon but will search more when I'm done. :)
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Jim Dixon diebold gets an email exchange btw Jim and Gene Marsh
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22jim+dixon%22+diebold


Re: Re: regarding potential new IANA initial board members
... Gene Marsh > Diebold Incorporated > > ---Original ... > Jim Dixon wrote: > > > On
Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Gordon Cook wrote: > > > > I have one very simple question ...
www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf/ Pre_Oct_1998/msg02395.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

RE: Re: regarding potential new IANA initial board members
... Gene Marsh Diebold Incorporated -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Williams
www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf/ Pre_Oct_1998/msg02391.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

Mail Index
... From: Jim Dixon <jdd@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>. RE: powers of the Initial ... From:
"Marsh, Miles (Gene)" <MarshM@diebold.com>. Re: Suggestions for the Internet ...
www.iana.org/comments/03oct1998-10jan2000/maillist.htm - 57k - Cached - Similar pages

NETSYS.COM - The Intelligent Hacker's Choice! IETF Mailing List ...
... Gene Marsh Diebold Incorporated. ... Jim Dixon wrote: > On Sun, 27 Sep 1998,
Gordon Cook wrote: > > > I have one very simple question..... ...
www.netsys.com/ietf/1998/4964.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

NETSYS.COM - The Intelligent Hacker's Choice! IETF Mailing List ...
... That is a fundamentally significant flaw. > > > Gene Marsh > Diebold Incorporated
> > ---Original Message----- From ... > Jim Dixon wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 ...
www.netsys.com/ietf/1998/4968.html - 18k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

summer2002
... Sandy Sanderson in testifying for this bill; thanks also to Tony Cirvillo from Harris
County, Texas, Jim Dixon, American Association ... Diebold Inc.'s AccuVote-TS ...
www.acb.org/alaska/summer2002.htm - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

Messages Failing Criteria
... Roeland MJ Meyer wrote: > At 11:24 PM 11/16/98 +0000, Jim Dixon wrote: > >On Mon,
16 Nov 1998, Bob Allisat ... Gene Marsh > Diebold Incorporated > > ---Original ...
cyber.law.harvard.edu/icann/cambridge-1198/ other_lodgings.html - 101k - Oct 13, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages
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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Holy canola..good info..I'll do some research too..
what I don't understand about Mr. Dickson/Dixon is that he doesn't want a voter verified paper trail and yet he appears to be unhappy with HAVA/voting machine cos. due to disability issues such as lack of privacy when voting; booths not handicap accessible - e.g. no ramps, etc.; how to verify a blind person's vote and yet.. why the opposition to "us"??
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. If you google them toghether: "jim dixon" "jim dickson" seems like 2 guys

DR NATION: NEWS
... and senator for a statue of Roosevelt in a wheelchair, urges Jim Dickson of the ... Write
letters, and then contact Jim Dixon at NOD at (202) 293-5950, TDD (202 ...
www.ragged-edge-mag.com/archive/drnat.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

Augusta Georgia: Gardening:Committed to camellias 01/17/03
... Aiken Camellia Society president Jim Dickson seemed destined to be where he is today ... entry
cards may be secured in advance by contacting Jim Dixon at (706) 796 ...
www.augustachronicle.com/stories/ 011703/gar_098-7303.000.shtml - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Special Call Meeting
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... Ironhorse Advisory Board Members present: (Chair) Dick Fuller, Jim Dickson, Bob Reid ... Jim
Dixon stated that once the golf course was completed, developers moved ...
www.leawood.org/council/2003%20Minutes/sc2-10.pdf - Similar pages

Annual Report 2002 - Strategic Goal: Operational Effectiveness
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... and Planning Lai Koon Chan FCPA Singapore Jim Dickson FCPA International ... Western Australia
Policy Advisers Jane Barrett Superannuation Jim Dixon FCPA Audit and ...
www.cpaonline.com.au/03_publications/05_annual_report/ docs/2002_operational.pdf - Similar pages

Financial Planning
... Denis Pratt FCPA Tasmania and Public Practice. Jim Dickson FCPA International. ... Jane
Barrett Superannuation. Jim Dixon FCPA Audit and Assurance, External Reporting. ...
www.cpaonline.com.au/03_publications/05_annual_report/ 3_5_0_10_ourstaff.asp - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

DESTIN REAL ESTATE: Over 3,000 Properties Online.
*** DESTIN REAL ESTATE: Destin & Sandestin FL: Beach front homes and
condos for sale ***. 6. Oceania Real Estate Services 12815 Emerald ...
Description: Photos and descriptions of properties and contact information.
Category: Regional > North America > ... > Real Estate > Residential
www.oceaniadestin.com/ - 52k - Cached - Similar pages

Highlights 7
... Mike Messina and Wildlife and Fisheries Science - Jim Dixon), Mississippi State
University (Stephen Schoenholtz), and the USDA Forest Service ( Jim Dickson). ...
www.tsaf.org/highlites7.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

INCLUSION DAILY EXPRESS -- Accessible Voting
... election officials to give us adequate voting access," said Jim Dickson, vice president ... a
new anything, it must be accessible," said Jim Dixon, vice president ...
www.inclusiondaily.com/news/access/voting.htm - 38k - Cached - Similar pages

upcoming events IN THIS ISSUE
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... Bettura David & Elizabeth Blanchette & Family Ted & Melody Burton Stephen & Debbie
Carmichael Michael & Mary Cossentino Deneen DeWitt Roben & Jim Dixon Wanda C ...
www.dsagc.com/DSPress/2000DSPressIssues/july-aug00.pdf - Similar pages


"jim dixon" "jim dickson".
Results 11 - 17 of 17. Search took 0.28 seconds.



Financial Planning
... Denis Pratt FCPA Tasmania and Public Practice. Jim Dickson FCPA International. ... Jane
Barrett Superannuation. Jim Dixon FCPA Audit and Assurance, External Reporting. ...
www.cpaonline.com.au/03_publications/05_annual_report/ 3_5_0_10_ourstaff.asp - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

upcoming events IN THIS ISSUE
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... Bettura David & Elizabeth Blanchette & Family Ted & Melody Burton Stephen & Debbie
Carmichael Michael & Mary Cossentino Deneen DeWitt Roben & Jim Dixon Wanda C ...
www.dsagc.com/DSPress/2000DSPressIssues/july-aug00.pdf - Similar pages

Poinsett Co. Obituaries MR
... Anthony's Catholic Church in Weiner, with Rev. Father Jim Dixon officiating. ... Anthony
Catholic Church in Weiner, with Father Jim Dickson officiating. ...
users.bscn.com/harryv/obit_mr.htm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

Poinsett Co. Obituaries MR
... Anthony's Catholic Church in Weiner, with Rev. Father Jim Dixon officiating. ... Anthony
Catholic Church in Weiner, with Father Jim Dickson officiating. ...
www.couchgenweb.com/poinsett/obit_mr.htm - 100k - Cached - Similar pages

Highlights of Texas Forestry
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Page 1. 1 Highlights of Texas Forestry Texas Society of American Foresters
As of February 2, 2002 Note: Some of This Has Not Been Authenticated. ...
www.tsaf.org/highlights.pdf - Similar pages

Yahoo! Groups : GeneClarkList Messages : Message 3021 of 6996
... my friend in England of the short lived group put togther by Jim Dixon (Circle of ... and
features"Flyte" nd band put togther by by Jim Dickson which recorded a ...
groups.yahoo.com/group/GeneClarkList/ message/3021?source=1 - 22k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Yahoo! Groups : GeneClarkList Messages : Message 1990 of 6997
... my friend in England of the short lived group put togther by Jim Dixon (Circle of ... and
features"Flyte" nd band put togther by by Jim Dickson which recorded a ...
groups.yahoo.com/group/GeneClarkList/ message/1990?source=1 - 14k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Google is censoring 1 result only showing 17 of 18
punks
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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. interesting.. coincidence or ??
Edited on Tue Oct-14-03 09:09 PM by phoebe
http://www.nod.org/gallery/photo15.html - there is a Douglas Lewis in this photo although he cannot be seen clearly - listed as President of the Wesley Theological Seminary..

never mind - H Douglass Lewis - not related to Doug Lewis that I can tell..(crap - should verify my own research before looking like a complete nut..)

that aside - Mr. Dixon/Dickson looks to be worthy of further research..
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. sorta reads like a Who's Who of repugs.
Bet he's bought and paid for, or else he buys and pays for corporate "deregulation" or other shenanigans.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
51. Well, we should've known. Some real right-wingers on that board
Such as:
Richard M. DeVos, Sr.
N.O.D. Founding Chairman
Retired President, Amway Corp.

Friends of the Bush family:

Arlene E. Anns
Former Publisher
The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

Harold W. McGraw III
Chairman, President and CEO
The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Compassionate Conservatism.....
.....at it's finest! :evilgrin:
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Very Strange. Two Jims a Dixon and a Dickson. What gives?
Could there be that many misspellings

Google "Jim Dixon" aapd. And then "Jim Dickson" aapd
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. I knew that. Same thing...
with the League for Women Voters... Either they are retarded and don't understand anything vaguely rational, OR they have been bribed, or both. It's a problem... I don't know for sure how these orgs are structured, but if there is pressure from the bottom they may change their official position...

-C
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Jim Dixon
is mentioned nowhere on the AAPD site. I have never heard of him and would like to find access to this, apparently, ill-informed man.

I will post his name on a few disablilty sites and see if I can come up w/something on him.

:mad:
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think it is a misspelling of Dickson
Google it with aapd
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Thanks, found him
http://www.aapd.com/dvpmain/JimDicksonbio.html

Jim Dickson is Vice President for Governmental Affairs of the American Association of People with Disabilities (AAPD). He leads the AAPD Disability Vote Project, a broad coalition of 36 national disability-related organizations to close the political participation gap for people with disabilities. The project focuses on election reform, polling place access, voter registration and education and get-out-the-vote drives.

- snip-

In 1987, Jim became the first blind person to sail a boat alone from Rhode Island to Bermuda. His objectives were to have a good time, and to stimulate public discussion on the abilities of people with disabilities.


jim_dickson@earthlink.net

What I don't understand , is what access has to do w/BBV. Before the '02 mid terms, I posted on a Disability board, asking what problems PWDs had w/voting. The majority of PWDs said they voted absentee.


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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
13. I have met him....
Some of you know I am webmaster for VerifiedVoting.org. In July, I traveled to Denver with Dill and we ran a 2-day workshop in a meeting room adjacent to the IACREOT conference. Our goal was to communicate with the elections officials as to our concerns.

Well, it's day #2 and we're in the midst of vendor presentations. The door bursts open and in blasts this Jim Dickson dude and 6 wheelchair activists who decided we needed a bit of civil disobedience to brighten our day...

All I can tell you is that they were screaming at us that we were delaying the delivery of these machines which "would allow the disabled community to vote in privacy, and without intimidation." The killer part was when the most vocal of the folks in wheelchairs who claimed to have been an elections supervisor insisted (and I am not exagerating here) "I don't care how they count the votes, I just want to be able to vote in privacy". Yep, that's what she said, and she said it over and over...

We ended up revising the schedule of the "elections officials panel" at the end of the day so that Dickson et al could have a chance to express their concerns.

Anyhow, we've got the whole deal on video tape - ParanoidPat, if I'm not wrong you are in the Santa Cruz area? We don't have the video transfered to CD (lack of funding makes this effort a real challenge), but if you were interested in seeing the events - and hear the discussion, I could probably arrange that for you. The tape is actually in the SC area.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Damn! Bring it on!
I have a documentary that needs this! :bounce: :evilgrin:
Check your e-mail! :)
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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. wow! thanks for this..
I'm still trying to reconcile this guy's "privacy issues" and the fact that he can't now trust poll workers to accurately record a vote for a blind voter - he concludes that blind voters are being manipulated and that he has no way to verify his own vote and yet he believes voter verified paper trails to be "redundant"..there's a strange disconnect here..anyone else find this odd??
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. This is just incredible!!
I have a wheel-chairs-in-the-fast-lane friend in Sacramento who is very active politically with the ADA. She's been active since the late 60's, when she was paralyzed from the chest down in an auto accident, and she remains very politically active on both the State and the national levels to this very day.

I'm forwarding her this whole thread....boy...is she gonna be majorly pissed!!!

We need to expose this fraudulent bunch of supposed "do-gooders" which includes none other than Poppy himself!

:puke:


:kick:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I am getting the feeling
"they" are beyond do-gooders. Something smells.

I have been paralyzed for 17 years (as of Ocotber 17, 2003) and have been active politically for 31 years. Nothing stops me from voting.

If Dickson believes that PDWs need BBV, he hasn't passed it along to such organizations as Justice for All. (Large organization for people w/disabilities.

Someone(s) is being used.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Pastiche423 -- thanks for your insights
It is sometimes amazing how quickly these people shut up when confronted by those they claim to represent.

I am interested in finding as many listserves, forums and organizations as possible which serve the disabled. One of the activism hives we need is an education / cut the bullshit unit for these groups. PM me - or better yet, email me at bev@blackboxvoting.com and I'll arrange for you to get the relevant information to help with this, given whatever time/interest you have.

It's insidious, really -- the very groups most at risk when the votes go to corporatists are the ones they are courting and claiming have endorsed unaudited voting.

Won't work. Not when we're better organized.

Bev
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. YES, SOMETHING SMELLS>..
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 10:12 AM by creativelcro
... It seems like something similar has been going on with the League of Women Voters. They officially endorse BBV based on a number of lame arguments, but it seems the national board may have never consulted the local chapters etc. Something IS fishy!!!

-C

""they" are beyond do-gooders. Something smells.

I have been paralyzed for 17 years (as of Ocotber 17, 2003) and have been active politically for 31 years. Nothing stops me from voting.

If Dickson believes that PDWs need BBV, he hasn't passed it along to such organizations as Justice for All. (Large organization for people w/disabilities.

Someone(s) is being used."
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dill Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. Justice for All
In fact, I got the impression that Jim Dickson RUNS Justice
for All. There were some pretty nasty posts by him about us
on their email list, which I found archived on the web.

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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. <<<fraudulent bunch of supposed "do-gooders">>>
I'm not sure I would go so far as to call them all fraudulent. I'm thinking seriously mis-guided, and dangerously narrow-focused.

You'd have to have been there, but out of 6 of them in wheelchairs, only a couple seemed to be operating at a moderately high level - the rest appeared to be along for window-dressing and emotional impact. They were truly disabled, bound to a life in their wheelchairs. It was clear that most of them required significant care and attendance - not really capable of managing a strenuous debate about the details of this issue. Dickson (blind guy in a 3-piece suit with a guide dog) was loud, opinionated, and well-spoken (rehearsed). He's going to be a real challenge...

My opinion is that while we need to resolve the issues with them, and to find a win-win solution that brings them over to our side, the greater challenges are the organizations that oppose us, some presumably in the name of the disabled community. Common Cause, ACLU and LWV are serious problems in terms of their opposition. That is where much effort is needed in order to help them understand the issue, and why they need to support us.

The other issue is the folks over in freeperland. I read threads over there the other day where they asserted that the "rats" wanted to steal another election with the rigged voting machines. They really need to get a clue, despite how hard it seems to be for them to awaken... Somehow we need to help them understand what's up...

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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. What were Dickson's concerns?
Did the people using wheelchairs (please do not use the term "wheelchair bound" - it produces an image of either Hannibal or people into S&M) state their concerns in any detail?

It pisses me off to hear someone speak for a group, such as the disabled, when they (it seems to me) have their own agenda.

I have been disabled for 17 years, belong to many disability organizations, both online and off and no one has asked me about voting, period.
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. Dickson just stayed focused on privacy -
he hammered and hammered at it. They emphasized how election workers intimidated voters - I have to acknowledge that I just can't imagine that. There was also assertions that if a piece of paper needed to be inserted into an envelope, that the person who did not have use of their hands could be impacted.

We're making arrangements to get a copy of the segment to ParanoidPat, and as she lives 10 minutes from the fellow who has it, this should happen shortly.

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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Good point Greg.... I am conducting an experiment....
I had a wee mosey around FR land myself just now and found the recent posts remarkably open on the issue... true if you look into the background there is lots of angry stuff there too.. but maybe they too are coming around...

If they are nice I might contact Jim March and see if he is keen to help.

al
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Here's my experiment....
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1001371/posts

I think it is fair to say that it was a bit of a failure. That said the prevailing view over in Freeper land seems to be that vote fraud is also a problem for republicans... it is just that they think the Democrats are the ones doing it.

Unsurprisingly they are not particularly interested in anything that hints at republican shenanigans.

One thing for sure is that they were very interested... very quickly in the subject matter. So I would say it is fertile ground. I think Jim should get over there and get busy educating the folks...
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. that's why
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 09:43 AM by creativelcro
Senator Corzine should stop acting like an idiot. Look at this petition. He starts with:

"Republicans have sunk to a stunning new low."

Then there is some rambling, and then he asks people to sign the petition:
"I, too, am outraged that a person who manufactures voting machines would promise to "deliver" the election to George W. Bush. Why won't Republicans play by the rules? Deep down, they must know that the vast majority of Americans don't support the radical right-wing agenda of the Bush Administration."

http://www.dscc.org/information/stopvotingmachines_letter/

I don't understand what the hell he's thinking... If the Republicans are in favor of the BBV position, I don't see the point in alienating them... Corzine is from the same state as Holt, right ? I'm wondering if he's trying to sink Holt's bill or something (witout Republican supporters the bill won't pass). It doesn't make any sense... -C
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Maybe just suggesting they get behind HR2239
Just tout the bill and leave anything else out of it.

How it will help the disabled and how it will insure their vote is counted as cast.

Tell them to call their legislators to cosponsor and sign the petition to get this out of committee and onto the floor of the House.
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Amazing
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 09:55 AM by GregD
that we live in the same country and see things so differently. Working with them will clearly be a challenge. I will forward this to Jim and see if he wants to go over there and give them some input.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. there are limits to rationality...
assuming people are acting in good faith.... If somebody cannot understand certain rational arguments, what can you do ?... Perhaps it's intrinsic in the concept of democracy... Everybody has the right to vote, but many people may not be able to think straight (this is not elitism, I wish things were different)... Not sure what the solution is... Other than spend an enourmous amount of time trying to simplify the arguments.... Sometimes that may not be possible... That is ASSUMING there is good faith to start with...
-C
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. "there are limits to rationality..." Like this one?
:shrug: :evilfrown:

Leadership Council on Civil Rights Oppose Voter Verified Paper Ballots



You may also choose one of these formats (MS Word) (Text) (pdf)-(Download Adobe Acrobat Reader for FREE.)

Leadership Conference on Civil Rights
1629 K Street, NW
10th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20006
Phone: 202-466-3311
Fax: 202-466-3435
Civil Rights web site

"Voter-Verified Paper Trails" Are Not Needed To Keep Elections From Being Stolen
As outdated & infamous punch-card and lever style voting systems are steadily being phased out throughout the country, direct recording electronic ("DRE") or "ATM-style" voting machines are becoming more popular. Some people, however, have attacked these newer machines, claiming that they are dangerously prone to manipulation, and that hardware or software failures are especially susceptible to resulting in lost votes. Some have even gone as far as to suggest that new machines are being used as part of a conspiracy to rig elections around the country.

Many of these critics believe that their concerns would be best addressed if DREs produced a printed ballot, which, in theory, voters would examine to determine that their votes had been cast and counted properly. To this end, Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ) has introduced the "Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act" (H.R. 2239), which would go beyond current law - which was recently changed by the "Help America Vote Act" (HAVA) to require all voting machines to produce a printed audit trail - to add a new requirement that a "hard copy" of each ballot be verified by the voter before it is cast.

The integrity and reliability of the voting process is of the utmost importance, and the creation of electronic records that can be used for audits and recounts is essential. Technology that allows voters to check their ballots before casting them, as is required by HAVA, is also very important. However, many of the concerns that have been raised over the reliability and security of DREs are overstated or unwarranted. Furthermore, while calls for the production of a voter-verified individual-ballot paper trail by DREs may be well- intended, such a step would lead to a wide range of negative consequences.

Fact: DRE Systems Are Replacing Outdated, Failed Technologies
Current DRE systems are very popular replacements for outdated technologies like levers and punch cards. Those older systems often have high rates of error, are harder to use, are often inaccessible to people with disabilities, and are harder to adapt for people who speak different languages. Empirical evidence from use in the field suggest that touch screens are easier to use, including by the elderly & minorities, are more accurate, more accessible to voters with disabilities, and easier to adapt to different languages than older technologies.1 DREs also already allow voters to verify their ballots before they are cast, by displaying a final ballot on screen to be confirmed. In many ways, DREs are a significant advance from a voter's perspective.

Fact: Security and Reliability Concerns With DRE Machines Have Been Exaggerated
DREs are highly sophisticated, with most of them storing ballot records in multiple formats and in multiple locations. Furthermore, DREs are already required under federal law to create records that can be audited, and most machines currently provide not only the total vote tallies but also a record of how each individual ballot was cast. In many cases, like the machines used in Georgia, DREs produce 3 records of the vote: the official count, a backup count on a separate chip, and a paper record printed out once polls close. In order to rig a DRE, an individual would need to be intimately familiar with its 1 See, e.g. Michael Tomz & Robert T. Van Houweling, "How Does Voting Equipment Affect the Racial Gap in Voided Ballots?," (pdf) 7/8/2003 Leadership Conference on Civil Rights Page 2 software, gain access to it long enough to change its code, conceal the changes during pre- and postelection testing, and do this on enough machines to actually alter the outcome of an election. While such rigging is possible in theory, in practice it is highly improbable - in fact, in practice, it would be far easier to simply "lose" paper ballots.2

Fact: Mandating Voter-Verified Paper Trails Could Deny Voters With Disabilities the Right to Cast a Secret Ballot
For the first time, the Help America Vote Act recognized that voters with disabilities should have the same opportunities to cast a secret ballot as everyone else. One key reason for the growth in use of DREs is that they can give everyone a truly private vote; particularly the visually impaired, those with motor skill impairments, or other people with disabilities. For blind or visually impaired voters, including many elderly voters, the creation of a paper trail obviously offers no benefit (causing them, instead, even greater concerns over privacy). Proponents of voter- verified paper trails attempt to respond to the concerns of blind voters by suggesting that they be allowed to verify their ballots, in lieu of paper, by having the DRE read or display their choices back to them prior to final casting of the ballot. 3 Yet this "solution" for the blind is exactly the kind of verification that the law already requires, for every voter. Apparently such proponents believe that the current technology for ballot verification is fundamentally flawed, yet is somehow still good enough for people with disabilities.

Fact: Voter-Verified Paper Trails In DREs Are An Untested And Unproven Technology
Right now, there are no DRE machines that produce a voter verified paper trail in wide use anywhere in the world. In a recent October 2002 trial of this new technology in Sacramento, CA, for example, printers jammed, and the ballots had to be handled with "many creative tools that were on hand .. such as a windshield wiper or a back scratcher." Such breakdowns require entire machines be taken out for service, taxing poll workers and creating long lines at the polls. Vendors are working to create new DREs that produce voter verified paper ballots that meet secrecy and security concerns, but these new machines have mostly not been certified by testing agencies and have not been tested in the field.

Fact: Voter-Verified Paper Trails Are of Questionable Value from a Security Standpoint
A piece of paper that shows the voter what they are voting for does not necessarily ensure a secure vote, because assuming a DRE can be rigged, what a paper receipt shows and what the machine counts could still be two different things. A better way to ensure accuracy, in addition to rigorous pre- and post-election testing, is to randomly take machines offline during election day and vote on them numerous times to ensure that votes are being counted correctly, a procedure known as parallel testing.

Fact: Voter-Verified Paper Trails Would Create New, Unintended Security Concerns
Producing a paper record creates privacy concerns, as strong security measures would need to be taken to ensure that voters could not take the paper receipts with them upon leaving the polls - opening the door to the sale or even coercion of votes - or that poll workers or elections officials could not violate the sanctity of secret ballots. Keeping a voter's vote secret is critical to a free and fair democracy. The Leadership Conference on Civil Rights is deeply concerned about the sanctity and security of elections, as the right to vote - and have that vote counted - stands out as perhaps the most important civil right of all. Bearing this in mind, documented improvements in election systems should not be delayed based on unwarranted fears, untested theories, and technology that simply does not exist.

2 To date, there has been no proven instance of attempted fraud in the use of DRE voting equipment. See Secretary of State's Ad Hoc Touch Screen Task Force, Report to the Secretary of State, CA Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, July 1, 2003, at 18.

3 Avante International Technology, Inc., "Response to the "limitations" of printers (the real story)," (pdf) May 6, 2003, at 6.

Contact Jim Dickson jim_dickson@earthlink.net 202-457-0046 (v/tty)

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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
43. I've got it!
Without a cane he is Dixon; with a cane he is "Dick's Son". I know, I'm crazy tonight.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
31. New Thread.... (Pat quoted Jim Dickson saying....)
This release from Jim Dickson is outrageous.... thanks pat...

As for this bit.

"2 To date, there has been no proven instance of attempted fraud in the use of DRE voting equipment. See Secretary of State's Ad Hoc Touch Screen Task Force, Report to the Secretary of State, CA Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, July 1, 2003, at 18."

It will be nice to set the record straight on this. It may have been true on July 1 2003... it is not true now...

al
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Jim Dickson's game.....
.....is to come off as if he speaks for millions of people from hundreds of organizations. :evilgrin:

Case in point, although this page is posted on the Civil Rights.org web site, which was founded by the LCCR and LCCREF (Leadership Conference on Civil Rights and LCCR Education Fund) their disclaimer makes it clear that the views he espouses are clearly his own!

About civilrights.org
Disclaimer Information

civilrights.org is a collaboration of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights (LCCR), the nation's oldest and most broad-based civil rights coalition with a membership of 180 national organizations, and the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights Education Fund (LCCREF), the research and education arm of the civil rights coalition. As a civil rights clearinghouse, civilrights.org contains a wealth of information, resources and links that may be of interest to you. Please note, however, that information posted on civilrights.org is provided for educational purposes only. Because information on the site comes from many different sources, unless otherwise noted:

# the information provided on civilrights.org does not represent official positions or views of LCCR or its member organizations;

# LCCR and LCCREF disclaim any legal affiliation or agency relationship with the third party organizations to which links are provided or which may link to the civilrights.org web site whether with or without permission;

# LCCR and LCCREF disclaim any responsibility for the content or views expressed on the web site of any such third party organization that at any time has been linked to or from the civilrights.org website; and

# LCCR and LCCREF disclaim any responsibility for the content or views expressed on the web site of any third party organization that at any time has provided information on the civilrights.org website.

:kick:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
34. I just got an invitation
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 07:58 PM by plan9_pub
from the host of the show (Access Unlimited) to appear and rebut Mr. Dixon's concerns.

I may be on the show with him, so things could get interesting.

Out of the frying pan....




Diebold AccuVote Ingredients

Taxpayer money.................$5000
Security Flaws....................328
Critical Security Flaws.........26
CEO commitments to
deliver election to GOP........1
Tamper-proof Paper ballots...0
Tamper-friendly digital
ballots................................At least 32MB
Your actual vote..................None of your business.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Is there anything we can do.....
.....to help you prepare? :evilgrin:
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Gettin' that TV bug, David?
;-)

But, yeah, anything you need for firepower, let us know. BTW, can't check this out until I get home, but one of the names in the organization's senior staff sure looks familiar (like it's on one of the private political mailing lists I sometimes get).

I'll check it out.

Cheers.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. David--here's the guts of AAPD's objections...
... from their position paper:

* * *

2) ACCESSIBILITY VIOLATIONS

AAPD and the disability community are in favor of a voter having the ability to verify the accuracy of their vote and to change any vote before their ballot is cast. In fact, it is one of the reasons the disability community has so strongly supported the implementation of DRE's that verify ballots and inform voters of a miss-vote.

By requiring verification of a paper ballot before casting a ballot, blind voters are denied access to a secret and independent verification of their ballot. This action violates the letter and spirit of HAVA according to section 301, subsection (A) which states, "…the voting system shall (i) permit the voter to verify (in a private and independent manner) the votes selected by the voter on the ballot before the ballot is cast and counted."

People with upper mobility disabilities or limitations are denied equal access to casting an independent vote if a paper ballot must be put into a ballot box. This also is a clear violation of HAVA's intent.

HAVA requires that all DRE's produce a paper audit trail. This audit trail is the most accurate and efficient way for an election authority to ensure that the systems are operating correctly.

3) THE COST OF VVPB

There is no question that the printing of paper ballots will significantly raise the costs associated with DRE's and elections. This cost was not intended or foreseen by HAVA.

Requiring a VVPB will result in federal funds being diverted to the costs of printing paper ballots. This will, in many cases, eliminate the possibility of buying accessible DRE's.

The additional cost of paper systems will prevent federal funds from being used for poll worker recruitment and training. Miami, in 2002, used touch screen computers for the first time. In the primary, poll workers and voters were not properly trained on how to use the touch screens, resulting in a primary day mess. For the general election, Miami had to use city employees who were properly trained and the election went smoothly, but it cost the county more than a million dollars to use its employees.

Local jurisdictions and states will ultimately shoulder the additional ongoing costs of VVPB. Since localities and states are the least-funded government entities, the result of VVPB on elections could be highly detrimental.

In addition to these factors, there is also the concern that none of the DRE systems certified by the Federal Election Commission (FEC) specifically for HAVA funds have the capacity to produce a paper ballot. At best, the mandating of VVPB puts election authorities at risk of implementing systems that may be redundant and unnecessary. At worst, this requirement is an assault on the intention of HAVA, and it puts our democracy at risk because of the inaccuracies, unreliability and discriminatory practices. AAPD cannot in good faith support a measure that will negate the accessibility requirements under HAVA and one that creates an unfunded mandate for local election authorities.

* * *


That's all of it in a nutshell, and some of is plain wrong (for example, no paper used with the DREs in Florida, and it was still a mess, so how did paper ballots prevent proper training, etc.).

Unless we find some other tie-in (say, foundation contributions from a few voting machine companies), it's likely that they've simply, and wrongly, got it in their heads that this is going to inhibit the blind from voting. Most of the above is clearly refutable on the basis of known fact.

Cheers.
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4dog Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
36. Holt's bill is supposed to address accessibility issues
as well as the voter-verified ballot.
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dill Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. Shawn Casey O'Brien
Shawn Casey O'Brien was on the California Task Force on Touch
Screen voting with me.

He and Dickson are long-time friends and collaborators. Their
views and strategies are similar on the paper trail issue.
They have large mailing lists and spend a lot of effort presenting
a very one-sided (and sometimes factually incorrect) view to their
members.

I know Shawn well and Dickson a little. I have tried my utmost
to reason with them, compromise, and accomodate them -- with no
positive effect.

It would be extremely helpful to get some momentum in FAVOR of
a voter verifiable paper trail (or "voter verified paper ballot",
if you prefer) among voters with disabilities. They have the same reasons to be concerned. The disabled community ought to be putting their energy into demanding that any VVPT be fully accessible
instead of trying to sabotage the idea at all costs.

One of the tactics of late has been to threaten to sue under various
voting/accessibility laws if anyone tries to impose a VVPT requirement. I personally think the fear, uncertainty, and doubt
from this has slowed down such requirements in California and elsewhere.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. What would you suggest
disabled voters do to combat Dickson's type of reasoning?

I would very much like Justice for All be involved w/this, but I need guidence as to how to approach them.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. Here's an additional thought....
Edited on Thu Oct-16-03 05:18 AM by punpirate
One possibly very big crossover group pair might be veterans' associations (who seem to be more or less in favor of paper ballots) and disabled vets' groups. Both get a lot of exposure for their views. I would guess the DAV has as much government access as AAPD might.

And one more. One of the principal issues in this, for both sides, is that the voter needs to feel that his or her vote counts, and is countable. We've been saying, all along, that using a paper ballot for recounts which has been verified by the voter is a right.

Now, if that is an intrinsic right in a democracy (which depends upon the popular vote for its existence), then it is a right for all. The AAPD's stance denies that intrinsic right not just to non-disabled voters, but to disabled voters, as well. If the technology exists to enable paper ballot verification for the disabled (and it does), then to argue against it is to deny an intrinsic right to all.

I think that's a wedge argument, and it's probably got some fairly sound foundation in the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

Cheers.
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uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Perhaps a different strategy for these folks
Edited on Thu Oct-16-03 02:38 AM by uhhuh
How do you feel they would respond to calls to eliminate the "secret" source code for voting machines. Do you think they may respond better if the focus was on making the machine code made open to analysis and scrutiny before and after elections?

Surely they don't feel comfortable with the idea that the tools of our democracy are corporate secrets? Could there be a push to get these people involved in making the machines and code available for analysis to some sort of bi-partisan commision,and eliminating the "trade secret" claims of the BBV companies?
I don't suggest dropping the call for a paper trail, but perhaps get people on board in a different way that they may be more comfortable with. Kind of attacking it from different sides? I think they may respond better to this approach, and at the same time, we can work on others with the paper trail aspects.

On Edit: I listen to Access Unlimited often, and they don't seem too fond of how corporations treat people with disabilities. They may see this better in this light. I don't think there is a lot of love lost there.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. It's a good argument...
... and done carefully, might be a way to smoke `em out.
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. According to one of them, they don't care...
OK, now one individual (you, me or someone else) do not necessarily speak for the entire community. I'm sure we all agree to that. However, let me repeat what one of Dickson's activists stated in the Denver Workshop.

So we've got Jim and his guide-dog, and 6 folks in wheelchairs. Only one of them (an African American woman) was actively involved (besides Jim) in the debate when they arrived (or later when we revised the schedule to accomodate them) - the others basically hung out and watched. Her name escapes me at the moment, and she claimed to have been an elections supervisor in the past. Among her remarks, and I believe I recall them precisely, she stated "I don't care how they count the votes, I just want to be able to vote in privacy".

Now this became a very heated debate, with a lot of emotion in the room, but she was really clear about that point... She just doesn't seem to see our concerns about secret software, and stayed focused on the very narrow issue of private accessibility. And I have no memory of Dickson, who was standing right next to her, seeking to challenge or soften any of her comments.

Punpirate's note (above) where he copied the arguements from the AAPD express this in detail, and very nicely. But to remain brief, their complaint was that our expression of our concerns "simply delayed the point when they would receive the ability to vote in privacy, and in an accessible manner."

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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
46. Kick this up for the morning people... n/t
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. And another kick up
as it slides off the page.
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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. what a wonderful response to this thread - thank you all so much
Edited on Thu Oct-16-03 12:26 PM by phoebe
:kick:
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Just keep asking those questions......
......and we'll keep digging for the answers. :evilgrin:

This is a subject that needed more exposure. Thanks for bringing it up.

:kick:
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