US Troops Throw Quran on Ground, Arrest Woman

[blackcat77]

The confrontation at the Oil Ministry illustrated the cultural chasm that divides the U.S. occupation from ordinary Iraqis. It began when 28-year-old Amal Karim showed up for work Tuesday morning and faced a routine search at the ministry entrance by U.S. soldiers.

When the Americans told her to submit her bag to a sniff-search by a dog, she refused, saying the bag held a copy of the Quran, Iraqi witnesses later reported.

Devout Iraqis often carry Islam's holy book with them, and Muslims consider dogs to be dirty, disease-spreading animals.

"When she refused, the American soldiers took the Quran out of her bag and threw it to the ground," said one woman, Zaineb Rahim. "Then the American soldiers handcuffed Amal."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main541815.shtml

[Liberal Veteran]

1. The fact is that a lot of Americans don't respect other cultures...

Stories like this just underscore that.

[_Jumper_]

5. Every country, except maybe Canada, is made up of ethnocentric people

nt

[Robin Hood]

92. Even Canada has ethnocentric freepers.

Fortunately for them they are not the majority.

[DealsGapRider]

28. Ahem...

First, we should not be so willing to believe everything we read simply because it reinforces an attitude we embrace.

Second, many of the "cultures" that we don't "respect" are not worthy of respect. I do not respect Wahhabism as practiced in many parts of the Arab world, for example, as it degrades and enslaves women. I think our culture is infinitely superior to that vicious misogyny cloaked in religion. Does that make me a bigot?

[Liberal Veteran]

51. Thinking your culture is superior does not mean...

....that you have license to actively and physically disrespect another's culture, especially when you are in their land.

The Christian church is plenty misogynistic itself, but that doesn't mean you would appreciate someone just tossing your bible aside and throwing it on the ground.

[efhmc]

55. As an avid feminist, I would agree with your acessment of most if not all

religions that come from the middle east. However, we are forced to deal with others with whom we disagree and have no respect for on a daily basis. We are required to deal in the US with an administration that none of us (DUers) respects. What we are not allowed to do is use our prejudices as an excuse to set our mode of behaviour when we are acting not as individuals but as an extention of our nation.

[oldcoot]

85. Picking one's battles

No one is expecting the troops to love or embrace every aspect of Iraqi culture. None of us would have complained, for example, if the soldiers had stopped a husband from killing his unfaithful wife. However, the troops need to remember that they are outnumbered and that they need to choose their battles wisely. Throwing a woman's Quran on the ground because she refuses to allow a dog to sniff her is the wrong battle.

First, they should have considered Muslim beliefs before using dogs to search people. Many Muslims view dogs as "unclean" and I suspect that this is why the woman objected to the dog sniffing her. Second, they should have found away to handle the situation without throwing her Quran to the ground because this behavior probably provided many Iraqis and Muslims in other nations with another reason to hate the United States. It looks like the troops are going to be there a long time. They need to learn how to deal with the Iraqi people for their own safety.

[mermaid]

97. Playing The Devil's Advocate....

I suppose that you define crashing two airplanes into skyscrapers and killing 3.000 innocent people respecting OUR culture??

Touche!

You know...a lot of this is coming from the fact that a lot of Americans (myself included I'll admit) are scared shitless of Islam, and are pissed off at Islam because of 9/11.

Has nothing to do with respecting other cultures...what you are witnessing here is REACTION. Many Americans are reacting to fear or anger. I, myself, own up to this.

I'm quite frankly scared shitless of Arabs anymore! I know it's very un-P.C. of me to say it....but I'm going to own up to it, all the same. I don't know who's the good ones and who's the bad ones, so my fear reaction is telliing me they are alll bad.

I have to fight very hard against this every day of my life. I work with many Arabs...I have to fight my gut feelings every day.

Not that I'm condoning the actions of this soldier...and it sure as hell is no way to win friends and influence people, to be sure...but I am EXPAINING his actions. I don't think that, in this case, it is so uch a disrespect of other cultures so much as it is a fear/anger reaction.

Hey, we're all human...we all feel! We all act on our feelings. Not that it is right. but I can understand it. I know...like I said, every day I fight with these feelings.

And, just so you all understand where I am coming from, know this...
I was in the fucking WTC on 2/26/93...the first time it got bombed! I walked down 101 flights of stairs in pitch blackness, and about 65 of those floors were smoke-filled to boot!!

I had panic attacks and flashbacks when 9/11 happened. I KNOW...the hell those people went thru on that horrible day.

I wish you wouldn't take these actions and merely dismiss them as disrespect of another culture. What you are seeing in the actions of this soldier is either fear of, or anger at...a different culture...in this case, Islam...or a combination of both fear and anger.
Not disrespect.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Well, as General Boykin has so candidly expressed, it *IS* a Crusade

And in addition to slaughtering, mutilating, starving and torturing Iraqi men, women and children, one of the main tasks of each Crusader is to demonstrate their contempt for Islam itself, and throwing the Holy Koran onto the ground is a very effective means of communicating that.

[_Jumper_]

6. So how many forced conversions have occured in Iraq under Shrub?

How many were there when the Islamic Empire invaded and occupied Iraq permanently?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. How many Native Americans were "converted" to Christianity as the...

...American settlers moved west? How many Native Americans were killed in the process?

How many slaves were forced to give up their beliefs once they reached the plantations?

Give the Bushies time...they'll get around to converting Muslims as soon as possible. When the Bushies talk about "democracy" they mean under the God they worship. I'm wondering how quickly it will happen here.

[DuctapeFatwa]

46. No need for forced conversions if you have the Policy of Starvation

The purpose of the Crusade is to slaughter Muslims and seize oil, not convert people.

[PsychoDad]

71. Islam did not force conversions.

An examination of history will support the facts. Islam was spread mostly by trade and filled the vacuum created by the fall of the Holy Roman Empire.
Under Islamic rule, religions other than Islam were protected. Christanity (mainstream and gnostic) and Judism florished during these years. It was from Baghdad, where paper was first used in quantity and made into books that learning and discovery spread to europe. It was these oppressive Muslims that copied and preserved ancient greek texts while they were declared blastphemous by the church and distroyed in europe.

I might suggest "Islam, Empire of Faith" a PBS special for a start. Do not assume that Islam was like europian christanity in it's oppression and hatred of the unknown. It was not.

[kayell]

76. Agreed from what I have read also

For instance Jews thrived in Spain under the Islamic Moors, it was only once the hard core Christian took over that the Jews were forced to convert, go into exile, or face the savege consequences of defying the church.

[DuctapeFatwa]

84. That was a good program. I'd also suggest ...

"Let there be no compulsion in religion..."

Koran 2:256

In fact, there are worse things you do than read the whole thing. It's shorter than the Bible, and it's ready available all over the internet in your favorite language, no spyware or registration required :)

[Java]

93. That simply isn't true

For example the conquest of Constinapole in 1453. Islamic forces enslaved thousands of Christians. (The ones who weren't murdered)

The Battle of Kosovo Polje in 1389.

Even when Islam was under Mohammed, it was a religion of conquest. For example Mohammed's forces conquering Mecca.

Islam is not a religion of peace that was mostly spread by trade

[mbartko]

98. In fact, Islam for a time DID NOT ALLOW conversions.

Either way, I don't see where that has a damned thing to do with throwing a Qur'an on the ground.

[KG]

3. one day, the iraqis will kick us out of their country.

maybe, sanity will prevail, and we will leave of own accord, before the US death toll start to approach that of the iraqi death toll.

[CoffeePlease1947]

4. I wonder how many Americans would freak if a foreign government came

into our country and pissed on our Bibles?

Mike

[sushi]

36. Good question

!

[Clark Can WIN]

7. Way to win the peace!

Why not strip search her and use the Quran for TP while we're at it?

STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID

[tlcandie]

8. Buried at the end of this story ... this little tidbit ..

<snip>
The Associated Press saw that one of the civilians killed, Iraqi Nazem Baji, had a gunshot wound in the back of his head and his hands were tied in front of him with plastic bands similar to those used by the U.S. military when they arrest suspects.

The victim's brother said he had been told by witnesses that the Americans bound and executed Baji. The U.S. military press office in Baghdad said it had no information on the allegation.
<snip>

[TNOE]

15. Oh nice

executions. Obvious why * didn't sign us up with the International Criminal Court.

[arcane1]

16. hey, those ICC exemptions were to prevent POLITICALLY MOTIVATED

yet otherwise baseless accusations. So stop saying that!

:crazy:

[sushi]

37. Good thing I read your post

because I was going to say that.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyawker99]

10. Hi Pushkin!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Pushkin]

31. Thanks!

Cheers to you back :-).

Maybe you can explain how to make all these faces and Icons when I write a post?

Pip pip

[Greyskye]

35. Here you go

Hit the 'Smilies lookup table' link when you are editing a message. The HTML lookup table link will show you how to do other fancy things, as well as use your own images. Good luck!

[Pushkin]

40. thanks again

I am a computer moron...I will check it out :-):dunce:

[Greyskye]

11. Is this sarcasm?

If not, that's the most insensitive post I've seen in quite a while...

[arcane1]

12. who cares? Pretty much everyone except the US

:grr:

"primitives", huh?

[_Jumper_]

13. Primitives??????

"Who really cares if some of these primitives get their feelings hurt when they do not cooperate?"

Newyawker, I don't think our new friend will be here long.;)

[TNOE]

14. The Bible?

Are you KIDDEN ME? With the Christian right spewing "crusdade" and our God is bigger than your God - you think ANYBODY would live after they were accused of throwing a Bible on the ground? Get real.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TNOE]

19. Unfortunately

LOTS of people care about their SILLY religion - don't the Iraqi's and muslims pray like 4 or 5 times a day? Sorry for my ignorance - but its more than a religion to these people - it is their way of life. We should not be there - period.

[Mikimouse]

20. Primitive? Check again

Of all of the nations in the ME, Iraq has historically been one of the most progressive and well educated.

[PsychoDad]

73. We fixed that...

With years of sanctions and bombing.

[Zhade]

96. We wouldn't be having this conversation without the Middle East.

They gave us the number zero. Hard to compute without it! :)

[arcane1]

22. "primitive" people do not have Dr.'s, scientists, technology

colleges, women in authority, etc, etc, etc

were exactly does the dictionary definition apply? :shrug:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arcane1]

24. defensive? Just reasonable

so, how does their culture and religion qualify as "primitive"?


oh, there is a definition that means "first, primary" and in that sense, you are correct, since the first culture and civilization came from what is now known as Iraq


I have a feeling you meant something different. Care to enlighten us?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyskye]

25. Primitive culture and religion?

You really need to educate yourself a little bit.

Here is a starting link for you: http://home.achilles.net/~sal/iraq_history.html

In ancient times the land area now known as modern Iraq was almost equivalent to Mesopotamia, the land between the two rivers Tigris and Euphrates (in Arabic, the Dijla and Furat, respectively), the Mesopotamian plain was called the Fertile Crescent. This region is known as the Cradle of Civilization; was the birthplace of the varied civilizations that moved us from prehistory to history. An advanced civilization flourished in this region long before that of Egypt, Greece, and Rome, for it was here in about 4000BC that the Sumerian culture flourished. <snip - much more>

And isn't it true that Christianity and Islam come from the same roots? So if Islam is 'primitive', then so is Christianity. Is this really what you are trying to say?

[Pushkin]

29. I agree

Sure if you want to talk about the past. I was talking about the present time

Thanks for the link. I am a history buff and don't recall that link. I will check it out.


regards

[Book Lover]

39. Then I have two blogs for you to check out

http://dear_raed.blogspot.com


http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com


Some history buff.

[Pushkin]

43. appreciate the links

Thanks, but the topics bring us full circle to the initial conversation

[Book Lover]

91. People, why are we paying attention to this freeper?

If you were truly interested in a discussion, then you might have read the things Salam and Riverbend had to say about their country. After reading the below, and seeing how many of what seem to be your posts were deleted, I'm not wasting my time with you any more. Ciao, baby.

[not systems]

34. Pathetic.

You think that is not bigoted?

I'm so sorry that my people (americans) are unable to respect
the religion and culture of people they claim to want to "liberate".

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

44. bigot defined.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot&r=67

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

What I respect?

The right to self determination of nations.

The right of people to live by their own values religious or otherwise.

Throwing a religious text on the ground is not respectful.

It is not when this guy did it with the Quran now.

It was not when brownshirts did it with the torah in Germany.

I believe it is bigoted to declare another culture or religion inferior.

I believe primitive implies inferior.

You said "primitive" I think that was bigoted.

Clear?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

49. intellectual observation

It is not "liberal" to "state that a culture or society is primitive"
when your society has invaded and is occupying the society you are
making the observation about.

I would say that neo-imperialist is closer to the mind set you
are working from.

Iraq is primitive like water is wet, that is what pretty much you have said.

Perhaps you should reexamine your subscription to this idea.

[Pushkin]

53. omg

You wrote:

<it is not "liberal" to "state that a culture or society is primitive">

educated people will agree, after that "brilliant" comment ..I rest my case (at least with you)

[not systems]

58. liberal defined

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal&r=67

a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or
authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.


Rest your case if you must but I believe that it is
not liberal to embrace dogmas of cultural and religious
superiority.

I think it is bigotry.

You think that "educated people will agree", good for them.

The world is full of educated illiberal bigots.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

70. Say what you want.

I will also.

Nice variation on love it or leave it:

"Go live there in their "modern society", where they love diversity of opinion, religion and criticism."


Nice reasoned defense of your position:

"You do not believe? then you are idiot."

I'm so happy to have the "best and brightest"
to point out the primitives of the world.

[Pushkin]

79. I give up

You are too smart for me. I am wrong. Iraq is enlightened and modern society......

I am also travel agent... when can I book your trip to paradise?

[not systems]

82. no thanks.

I in no way think "Iraq is enlightened and modern society".

I do think that Iraqi people deserve to be respected.

I someday would like to visit Iraq to see what is
left of the artifacts from the birth of civilization.

Paradise? No I think not.

[Clark Can WIN]

26. Bullshit. I think the doctors, lawyers, scientists, artisans, scholars

and philosophers of Iraq would take offense at your characterization of them as "primitives".

You want some *ucking primitives, just look around the good 'ol USA. There's plenty of them. One of them lives at 1600 P.A.

You want your friend to survive? Write your state reps every day until enough pressure is put to bear to get them out.

We are the invaders, we are the occupiers. You think this persons treatment of the countries customs and citizenry will keep your friend any safer? WRONG. You should be angrier than most. This boob just put your friend in greater danger still. Just like each and every incident like this encourages more hate, recruits more angry Iraqi's and other Muslims to fight against this occupation. You should be against this type of behavior that futher endangers your friend.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

48. In their culture only strength is respected.

That is complete BS.

This is one of many lies used to justify grinding the
boot on the face of the "enemy".

Why use reason if "only strength is respected".

Also the same can be said of us.

Get nukes and you country is respected.

No nukes, better do as we say double time or else.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

62. "you are a bad representative for us here"

Whatever, I represent only myself.

I stand by my comments on your remarks.

[efhmc]

50. I am concerned here about a general attitude that seems to suggest

that "my country right or wrong" is necessary to protect our troops. There seem to be several other ways to handle this situation. The high handed, typical white, power loving male approach to these types of problems are why we are in the mess that we are in right now. Strength does not translate to disrespect for other people and cultures.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[efhmc]

57. Please reread what I said. I am talking about an attitude which comes

from a position of power and that attitude transcends sex and ethnicity and religion and age and economic background. Those in our nation practicing that attitude are across the board, but the attitude comes from the paternalistic attitude that pervades our culture.

[Pushkin]

61. You wrote..

This...

The high handed, typical white, power loving male approach to these types of problems are why we are in the mess that we are in right now.

Then....

that attitude transcends sex and ethnicity and religion and age and economic background.

sorry for my confusion

[sushi]

64. Perfectly said

"Strength does not translate to disrespect for other people and cultures."

In fact, the "higher" your are, the more reason to set a good example. Noblesse oblige.

[Clark Can WIN]

86. Gee, I'm sorry I missed that

Whatever it was.

[sushi]

41. What do you mean by

"do what they can to live?" There are rules of how to behave in a war. The behaviour of that soldier is sure not winning the peace, which is what he is supposed to do.


<"primitive" is an accurate description of Iraqi culture...>

This sentence describes YOU accurately!

[Pushkin]

45. relax please

The military is trained to kill and break things, that is why they should not be there to be peace keepers.


<<"primitive" is an accurate description of Iraqi culture...>>

<This sentence describes YOU accurately!>

wha?

[sushi]

68. If you don't understand it

I'm not interested in explaining it to you. I won't be posting to you again.

[Liberal Veteran]

52. You know nothing about Iraqi culture apparently...

Such as the fact that up until 1990, they were most sophisticated societies in the Middle East.

They had a thriving middle class, near universal health care, and boasted an extremely high literacy rate as well near equal rights for women.

They may be slightly behind us, but primitive is hardly an adequate description of Iraqi culture.

[Pushkin]

59. great

Sounds like paradise.

..so why would they kill people who wanted to leave?

[Liberal Veteran]

66. A brutal dictatorship need not be primitive.

The Soviet Union was a fairly advanced society and different from our own but they were hardly savages ravening on the edges of civilization, which is what the term primitive indicates.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[Liberal Veteran]

72. That primitive culture beat us into space....

And right now that primitive culture is the only way we have to get to our joint International Space Station.

You are obviously using the word primitive in manner which the rest of us are not familiar with.

Perhaps if you defined the word "primitive" in your own words we might understand the thought you are conveying in a very poor manner?

By the way, go walk through neighborhoods in LA and you will get killed for 100 in your wallet too and almost every city in America has areas like that. Are we also primitives?

[Pushkin]

77. Point taken (about LA)

Yes..Russia has great education system , I know..I live with result of it ...lol ;-).

My point was about culture

If you do not understand difference between culture/education...how can I explain what I mean? I am not University professor. I was writing to people who understand difference.

I think problem here is that you all see the word "primitive" as insult and not descriptive. It is description. description.... oh mondieu!

[not systems]

81. primitive defined

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=primitive&r=67

2.
a. Of or relating to an earliest or original stage or state; primeval.
b. Being little evolved from an early ancestral type.

3. Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons. See Synonyms at rude.

4. Anthropology. Of or relating to a nonindustrial, often tribal culture, especially one that is characterized by a low level of economic complexity: primitive societies.


Was one of these what you intended?

If not can you provide the definition you are using?

[Pushkin]

18. Removed?

Why?

[Greyskye]

21. Have you read the message board rules?

BIGOTRY

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

If it is not clear whether a comment is bigoted, we will generally give the benefit of the doubt and assume the least-bigoted interpretation. However, individuals who repeatedly post borderline-bigoted comments will be considered bigots and will be removed.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry.

I would say that your post violated this rule...

[goddess40]

32. I think I might have to change my 'support the troops' sign

I carry to I support MOST of the troops. Sorry but there is no excuse for this kind of behavior.

[Clark Can WIN]

87. Why ?????

Because it was your fucking description, that's why. See, you throw shit like that out you better be able to back it up. Here's a little hint, primitive has already been defined by Websters and a half a dozen other dictionaries, we were just wondering which entry you meant to apply to the whole freakin' Iraqi society.

[sushi]

33. That American soldier

needs to go home.

[efhmc]

60. That American soldier probably wants to go home.

[neuvocat]

63. You know what's so sad about this?

The U.S. really likes to think that its culture in general is so great when it could really look to others and gain so much from them.

[sushi]

67. I agree with you

and the US is trying to force its culture on others. I'm glad other countries resent it. A world with different cultures is so much more interesting.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

78. Sweetie, I have been to many countries....

Don't lecture me that America is the most free and greatest place on earth. It is a good country, but there are countries that beat us hands down in many areas from quality of life, health care, culture, personal freedoms, worker protections, etc.

You want to test your so-called "free speech" in the US. Show up at one of Bush's public appearances with "anti-Bush" sign and watch yourself get relegated to a "free speech zone" several blocks away.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

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[Liberal Veteran]

83. Canada, Australia, Sweden, Norway, UK....

....New Zealand, Netherlands, Japan, Germany, Luxemborg, Switzerland, Iceland.

[sushi]

94. In a recent study/survey

by the UN (I think it was) 2 Scandinavian countries came first and second, with Canada in third place, as the best countries to live in.

[KFC]

88. Like irrational concerns with dogs sniffing a book?

That is truly something we need to get serious about.

[Superfly]

75. Meanwhile, back in the states...

Government authorities rip 10 commandments from state capitol, nobody arrested.

[Clark Can WIN]

89. Thank God

pad um pum


But seriously ripped from the capitol? Are we ignoring the fact that is was THRUST upon the capitol by a media whoring theocratical nutcase looking for his 15 minutes and a career boost? Hmmmmm?

[efhmc]

90. Don't want to start a discussion on this but no ripping was done.

Laws were broken and moving of unlawful materials ocurred. Thank you for your light of truth on that piece of mind diverting, unnecessary dribble. We, of course, have nothing else to concern ourselves with in this country except that total waste of time, but the press had fun.

[Zhade]

95. Um, these particular troops are WAY too stupid (and vicious) to support...

I will not be surprised when these soldiers are killed. I mean, come ON - how stupid do you have to be to do something like this?

I do not WANT them to die. I will not be surprised, however, when they do. This is just sick all around.

We can all thank The Traitors for making this all possible. So, let's thank them, next November - come hell or high water.