Should men have any say in abortion at all (legally speaking)?

[creativelcro]

There you go... I can imagine what the break down will be, but perhaps not... -CV

[MissB]

1. Are you talking from a choice standpoint or a lawmaking standpoint?

Given the recent discussions on the law, I had to ask.

[creativelcro]

3. law

[MissB]

6. I think you might want to make the clear in your title

I would answer from a different standpoint depending on which question you meant to ask.

[niyad]

2. absolutely not. it isn't his body. if a woman wishes to consult with the

sperm donor, that is her business, but it is not his right to have any say

[qwertyMike]

18. It isn't her body either

the one inside

[maggrwaggr]

50. your "sperm donor" happens to be as much a parent as you

of the child in question.

Man, men just don't get a break from women. We with our evil intrusive penises, we're just "sperm donors"

Sad.

[ermoore]

60. True.

Well said. It would be as much my child as her's.

[mmonk]

66. what about egg donors?

:thumbsdown: Thanks for your humanity.

[mainegreen]

4. Interesting break down so far...

[wysimdnwyg]

5. I voted yes, but...

The father should have a limited voice in that discussion, but the final choice is the woman's. She should consider his POV, though.

[ibegurpard]

7. This is my view as well.

n/t

[mainegreen]

8. welcome...

what you see is ...... (?) ..... what you get.

whats the (?)

[wysimdnwyg]

10. wysimdnwyg

What you see is most definitely not what you get. It's an old alias, something I came up with off the top of my head. It's unusual, so I still use it.

And thanks for the "welcome".

[newyawker99]

61. Hi wysimdnwyg!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[yella_dawg]

9. You should add another choice.

"Fuck No! Are you insane?"

[Cheswick2.0]

11. "get a uterus or shut the hell up"?

I'd have voted for that option

[Liberal Veteran]

13. I am a guy and I would have voted for that one....

:)

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. My favorite is "No uterus, no opinion" Rachel on Friends...the

only time I ever really cracked up over that show.

[Wickerman]

64. I'm a guy and I gotta support those opinions

How the hell can I force someone to do something I can't conceive of?

er, the bad pun intended...

[mlawson]

12. I voted, "no, I am a man".

And I've always felt this way about the matter.

[Clovis Sangrail]

14. in proportion

The amount of say a man has should be (and is) in direct proportion to how strong the relationship is with the woman in question.
Legislating this would never work.

Strong relationship: 2 adults talking about something important and coming to a mutual understanding (NOT one side dictating to the other).

No relationship: NO SAY in the matter.

Ultimately, however, the decision has to belong to the woman.

[Dagaz]

15. Another question

For arguement let's say that the woman has the complete choice. So should the man have the choice of whether to support the baby financially if he agrees to no visitation rights?

Edited for clarity

[Nederland]

17. Its THE question IMO

To say that a man has no say in the decision while simultaneously claiming that he has a financial obligation if the woman choses to carry to term is basically forcing parenthood upon him. No one, man or woman, should have parenthood forced on them without their consent.

[Classical_Liberal]

29. Wrong! He didn't have to have sex with the women

and the women's body is not his just because he did.

[Blue_Chill]

71. She didn't have to have sex with him either.

So then why does she get to decide if she has it or not, but he doesn't get to decide if he pays for it or not?

This is not about owning her body, this is about choice. She can decide to have it or not and he can decide to be a parent or not.

[VermontDem2004]

77. Nice life for the kid

Sorry Billy, you dad didn't want to be a man and take care of you because he didn't want you. I am a man and if he is biologically linked to the child he should AT LEAST give child support, same if a man has the child, the mother should pay child support. What if the man doesn't say anything till after the child is born, all of sudden men everywhere will be saying "I didn't want that kid" just so they don't have to pay child support. My life is so much easier just because I am not a woman but one single thing doesn't go their way in their eyes they yell discrimination, yet society looks down on females.

[Blue_Chill]

82. Oh I see now it's about the kid!

I thought we were talking about choice here?

But since you want to talk about kids, tell me who is discriminated against when it comes to children legally? Women or Men?

[qwertyMike]

19. Yes of couse he should have that choice

He has the Right to Choose too whether he wants to become a parent, same as her.

[Classical_Liberal]

30. His right ends after the sex act is over

He can't force her to have an abortion, or force her not to.

[Blue_Chill]

73. Um the only one having something forced on them are men

Women can decide to have the child or not, hell they can even go into hiding have the baby wait out the period where the father can claim his rights and adopt it away against his wishes.

The father however is entirely bound by her decision. That isn't fair. He should have a choice wether to be a dad or not and what happens after that doesn't concern him.

[VermontDem2004]

78. The point is

once that kid comes out he is a dad. Dad is lucky that he doesn't get to carry around a baby for 8 or 9 months.

[Blue_Chill]

84. Dad is lucky?

Dad is lucky if mommy doesn't move away so he can never see his kid but still have to pay for it, all the while the kid grows up hating dad for not being there.

Seriously if women don't want to see more men demanding this kind of financial choice, stop supporting groups and laws that weaken fathers rights.

[Classical_Liberal]

28. No he shouldn't. He alread had the choice of whether to have

sex with the women or not.

[Blue_Chill]

72. And the woman had that very same choice did she not?

That choice was made by both of them and now they are faced with another question. Do you want to be a parent or not? Why should a man be bound by a womans choice? They should both be free to decide their own futures.

[HereSince1628]

16. Well if we believe in democracy...YES

Both men and women should be involved in all law/regulation making.
It would be something otherthan progressive to restrict rather than broaden rights for participatory government.

I recognize on the individual level that decision about how someone else's body functions isn't so clear.

[MissMarple]

20. Interpersonal relations can be such a quagmire.

I voted yes, he has a voice, but then again,how definitive that voice should be all depends. If he wants it and she doesn't, could he find another uterus? Maybe one day that will be possible. If he doesn't want it, never expected it, how responsible is he financially?

I personally know a young lady living with a man with two children from two mothers neither of whom he married. He didn't want anymore children, didn't want to marry anyone. So thinking she will "change him" she gets pregnant and has the baby. Oops! He still doesn't want the kid and won't get married. And this woman has a college education and teaches school. God/dess give me patience.

[lcordero]

21. Nope

It's a woman's body afterall.
Nobody other than I has a say in what I do with my body. Somebody having a say in what happens in a woman's body other than the woman is completely unacceptable.

[Silverhair]

22. Multiple questions here.

Just because a person is female, does not automatically make them pro-choice. Some of the strongest pro-life people are women, (Ex; Phyllis Schlafly) and some men are strongly pro-choice. (Sen Kennedy) The issue cuts across gender lines.

At the level of lawmaker the legislator is elected to represent all of the people of their district. To suggest that no male lawmakers can vote on this is silly, as there will have been many women that voted for that same legislator.

At the individual level the woman must have the decision. Whether or not she consults the responsible man will depends on her choice and what she feels is the strength of the relationship. One would hope it could be a join decision, and that he could be there to support her through a difficult time. But only she can

It becomes more complex if the woman is a minor. There are no easy answers there, and its painful for everybody, no matter which way it goes. Ultimately, I am hesitant for someone else, even they are the parents, to make a such a strong lifetime decision for the child. But I am also opposed to the decision remaining a secret from the parents, except in the most extreme cases. Like I said, this one isn't easy.

Regarding late term abortion - I have a lot of trouble with those. At that stage the baby is capable of life outside the womb, especially in 8th month abortions. (I just asked my wife her opinion of this. She is pro-choice, but strongly opposed to late term abortions, no matter what they are called. She considers outlawing them a good thing. Like I said, not all women automatically think alike on this issue.)

[MissMarple]

26. So if the mom is likely to die from, say toxemia, she just dies?

Very few late term abortions are ever performed and believe me those usually aren't for birth control. It should be available as a life saving measure, especially if the pregnancy in non viable.

[Silverhair]

36. Save the Mom.

There are many types of situations in which a late term abortion should be available.

[sujan]

23. NO (I am a man)

[Classical_Liberal]

24. Since men are more likely to be prochoice

why question their right, or are you talking about specific instances of abortion, rather than whether it is legal?

[creativelcro]

44. sorry for all of you who found

this poll too vague etc. I simply kept seeing the corresponding thread on top and was wondering how women and men would respond to that same question (the title of the thread)... -CV

[Hammie]

25. Of Course

Given that society imposes an ongoing financial responsibility on the father, the father (or "sperm doner" as he was so charmingly described elsewhere) has a vested interest in the outcome of the pregnancy. If he feels that a sucessful pregnancy would be an unaceptable financial burden to him, then he should be able to demand that the woman terminate the pregnancy. Of course the woman should also be able to terminate his interest in the pregancy by agreeing to accept all future financial liability.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. I don't agree with this at all

The real question is whether any other human can force a women one way or another. Choice.

[Hammie]

32. Symmetry

Why, in your world, do only women deserve to be free from force by others. In my world, all humans deserve to be free from force by other humans. In the real world, that isn't always happen. A woman who elects not to terminate a pregnancy can force the father to assume financial responsibility for the resultant child. By symmetry it only makes sense for the father to be able to force the woman to terminate the pregnancy. I consider this to be a compromise. It would be far preferable to simply eliminate the ability of one person to force their will on another.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. Men don't carry babies so on this issue Symmetry is a bunch

of baloney.

[Hammie]

38. True to an extent

The man is not responsible for the gestation of the fetus. Making my symmetry argument somewhat inaccurate.

Just for grins, lets say we try to make an estimate of how off base I am.

In your opinion, what fraction of the total cost (financially, emotionally, whatever) of raising a child does the actual pregnancy compose? Lifetime cost, conception to free functioning adult.

I trust that you will give a good faith estimate.

I say 5% max.

[Yupster]

52. Better compromise

Let the woman choose whether to have the baby.

Let the man choose whether to be the baby's parent ot not.

Let both decisions be made in a timely fashion so there isn't a need for a late term abortion.

[Yupster]

51. I disagree

The man should not be able to demand the woman terminate the pregnancy.

However, he should be able to say he doesn't want the child and sign away his legal rights and obligations so the woman knows that if she does choose to have the child she will get no financial or other help from him.

The woman should not be forced to be a parent, or not be a parent, but neither should the man.

Yes, he could have kept it zipped, but so could she. To me that burden falls on them both equally.

If there is a choice once pregnancy has occured, it should be for both of them, not just the woman.

[lulu]

31. Think about it this way

A man shouldn't be able to force a woman to have an abortion when she doesn't want one, either. A woman's body belongs to her, no matter what. A fetus is part of that body until it can survive outside the womb. Period.

[Selwynn]

33. No - I'm a man.

[creativelcro]

35. Same here...

"No - I'm a man."

[Devils Advocate NZ]

37. I didn't vote because the poll is badly formed.

On this thread, a couple of people raised the issue of men not having a choice about whether a child will be born, and then not having a choice about paying child support.

One or two people said "he had his choice when he had sex with the woman". Well, that argument is probably the MOST STUPID argument a pro-choice advocate could ever make. Why? Because it could be turned on the woman just as easily: "Abortion in any case except rape should be illegal, because the woman had the choice not to have sex in the first place."

Any arguments that can be made against a man being excused from paying child support when he wanted the woman to have an abortion can also be made against a woman having an abortion.

It is a simple equation:

If a woman can force a man to become a father, then a man should be able to force a woman to become a mother. If a woman can refuse to be a mother, then a man should be able to refuse to be a father.

Equality goes both ways.

So, if the poll was to be non-sexist, the question should be:

Should a person have the right to refuse to become a parent, with all the obligations that entails. Yes or No.

To that question, I would vote Yes.

[MissMarple]

39. One point this thread illustrates is that there are no simple equations.

In my very humble opinion. :D

[Devils Advocate NZ]

43. Seems pretty simple to me: Pro-choice or Anti-Choice.

If you are pro-choice for one sex, you should be pro-choice for the other. If you are anti-choice for one sex, you should be anti-choice for the other. It's called equality.

I am pro-choice for both sexes.

[MissMarple]

49. Hmmm... does one sex bear a greater burden than the other?

Not a minor point with a great many of us here. I wouldn't let a non-viable pregnancy keep me from taking care of my existing children.

Additionally, the mother usually is left with the care of the children. And, are you the keeper of your children's mother's life?

These are never simple choices. If I remember "Sophies's Choice" was quite impossible to live with.

There is nothing simple or simplistic about this issue.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

62. So you are a believer in collective punishment?

That ALL men should be punished for the actions of a few? If the man makes it clear that he does not want a baby, and the woman decides to have it regardless of his wishes, doesn't that mean that SHE is the one who is forcing herself to care for the child?

The double standards here are pretty amazing. The exact same people who would fly into a fit of rage at the mere mention that a woman chose to have sex and thus she shouldn't have a choice as to whether the baby is born, would use the exact same excuse against the man: he chose to have sex and thus shouldn't have a choice as to whether he is financially obligated to the child.

It is like they are saying that a woman shouldn't be made to accept the consequences of a bad decision, and yet a man should be. They are not "pro-choice", they are "pro-choice for women". They call men "sperm donors" as though they have no rights to the child, then expect those same "sperm donors" to be "fathers" when it comes to money. They are saying that a woman has no obligation to the child, and can thus choose to terminate it at will, but that a man's choice ends at the act of fertilisation.

So, I still think it is a very simple issue - pro-choice for all, or anti-choice for all. If a man decides to renounce his obligation to an unborn child, then the woman can make a decision based on her own circumstances to terminate or carry the child. If she feels that she can afford to look after the child or is willing to make sacrifices to do so, then she can chose to give birth to it, if she can't afford it because the man won't be contributing then she can terminate it.

That way both the man and the woman have a choice, and no one is forced into anything.

Of course, these choices are viable for women only during the pregnancy, and thus the choices for males should only be viable during the pregnancy. If during the pregnancy he informs the woman (there should be s standard legal method to do so, for instance by filing with the court) that he renounces his obligations, then she still has a choice as to whether she gives birth to the child.

However, if he does not attempt to renounce it until after it is born then he can not do so, because the woman would have no choice at that time.

By the way, I saw someone argue that the rights of the child differ from the rights of the mother, and thus the man should be obligated once the child is born, but should have no say before birth. This argument overlooks the fact that even after the child is born the mother can renounce her obligations by simply putting the child up for adoption. It is my understanding that the mother is not obligated to pay child support when her child is adopted.

[Yupster]

53. Or you could say

pro-choice for woman.

pro-checks from dad.

[Guaranteed]

57. I remembering arguing

this very point with my older sister when I was 10-11 years old (she must have been in her early twenties). "What? The woman gets TWO choices and the man only gets one??" "YUP."
That was her answer. It was just the way it was. Heh.

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. I didn't have a say in my husband's vasectomy..and I didn't want

him to have it at the time. All worked out, now believe that was his decision, abortion would be mine.

[notadmblnd]

42. I think if a man really cares about the issue..

he would have the sense to take responsibility from the get go i.e condom. Too many men get to walk away scott free when unwanted pregnancies arise.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. They do break you know

He could be the most responsible man in the world. He still gets no choice about being a father, but the woman does? No, that's wrong.

[WildClarySage]

46. Aren't there enough people

trying to take choice away from both MEN and WOMEN that we should stop silly infighting on this?

Should a man be able to force her to be a mother and then take the baby if she is reluctant or unable to foot 50% of the costs? Given the inequal power balance women face today, social justice advocates giving more vulnerable populations (in this case, women) the benefit of increased power (the choice of parenting)

[WildClarySage]

47. after thinking it over,

and not voting either way, I'd have to say, yes, he should have a say.

Just not the final say.

Should my husband have the final say in what color I paint my toenails? Should he be able to tell me what to wear? What kind of car I have to buy? Of course not. And those are fairly minor things, something with as important (and, often, life threatening) as pregnancy, the person taking the biggest risks should be the one making the decisions.

Nobody should make a woman whose pregnancy is life threatening have the baby. Not the dad, not the lawyers, not the judges. And it really does happen. It happened to me. I was lucky, but barely- Jr and I made it ok... but at a cost to my health- and no more wildclaryettes from me. Congress just decided that everyone else in my shoes (severe complications) should have to give birth no matter the risk. That should be HER decision, since she shoulders the risk, not his, or a judge's, or a stupid idiot legislator's.

[Yupster]

54. My wife and I decided to talk about having kids

on our second anniversary.

He was born two weeks before our second anniversary.

[VermontDem2004]

81. What do you suggest?

Men can't force women to have abortions. I think the woman has the luxury of making that decision, after all she is the one who has to carry the baby for 8 or 9 months. But there are lots of things in life that favor men over women.

[Liberator_Rev]

48. What! You expect ME a man, to be without power!

We've always been the ones to deny power to others. How can anyone DARE suggest that MEN be told "You have no say!"?

We "Liberals Like Christ" TRUST women to be AT LEAST as smart as men on an issue that affects them much more than us men. See
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ChristianChoice.

Go Girls!

[Guaranteed]

58. .....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=575521&mesg_id=575521

[Yupster]

55. Interesting to me

that women talk about how they have been denied power, but in this issue where they have power,

they want to keep it. All of it. Men should have no say at all.

Maybe people aren't really that different.

He who has the power wants to keep it, and the hell with fairness and justice. It's mine and I'm gonna keep it.

[MissMarple]

56. Not exactly. Don't paint with too broad a brush.

You may find yourself all "white linen". We would just like to find a balance, at least many of us would.

:D

[Yupster]

59. I've written my proposal for what I consider balance

what is your suggestion which would be equitable for both sexes. I'd love to hear it because what I'm getting most is. Too bad - you're a man. We'll tell you if your going to have a kid or not and then we'll tell you where to send the check for the next 18 years too.

I'd like to hear a proposal a little more balanced than that.

[Terwilliger]

63. yes

The parents (PARENTS) of any other child in any other situation have the final say on what happens to it...why shouldn't men have say in what happens between conception to birth?

[thom1102]

65. I voted Yes... and I am a man and here's why:

the prospective parents of the child should come to a decision together on whether to have the child. Ultimately, the woman has the final say, but I think that since the man is going to be responsible for supporting the child he should definitely have a say in whether the child is born. On that note, no man has the right to legislate whether a woman can or can't have a child, and therefore, Congress needs to keep its nasty hands out of our lovely ladies uterus' (what is the plural of uterus?)

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

68. Alright,

if we have no rights, why should we have responsibility (men)? Its seems women want the only rights on the issue, but no responsibilty.

[Heddi]

69. well it kind of depends

on the situation the woman is in, and the relationship she has with the father of the child.

I'm married. If I got pregnant and thought an abortion was the best decision, I would most DEFINITELY talk to him about it first. I would NOT make the decision to abort (or carry the child to term) without his knowledge and consent.

However, I'm not in an abusive relationship. I'm not in a dysfunctional relationship. My husband knows I'm a level-headed, intelligent, logically-thinking adult. If I felt that abortion should be an option, then I can guarantee you that he would think so too (without my prodding or influence).


But not every girl/woman is in a relationship with someone who treats her as an equal (or in my case, MORE than an equal). Not every girl/woman is in a relationship with someone who loves them and trusts their judgement and opinion. Not every girl/woman can be totally open and honest with her partner.

In *MY* case, right now, today, with my husband, I say yes, that MY HUSBAND should have a say in any pregnancy we should experience.

But I do not think that men, in general, in every situation should have a say in abortion.

I knew a girl in high-school that got pregnant. She was 14, and naieve, scared, and a bit dense. She talked to her boyfriend about getting an abortion. She was an honours student (smart, but not too bright, if that makes sense). She was a grade ahead of where she should have been. She was going to take her SAT's 2 years before everyone else. Very smart girl (just not too bright)

OH NO! he said! I'll take care of the baby! You don't have to worry about a thing! Once it's born, me and my family will adopt the baby! You don't have to drop out of school or anything!

So she didn't have an abortion. He promised to pay child support. He promised to take her to the Dr's office and rub her belly.

Well, promises are a dime a dozen, and about 7mos into her pregnancy, he dumped her in a horrible way. Started spreading vile rumours about her around school.

During the prev. 7 mos, he never paid for anything. Never helped out with anything.

ONce the baby was born, he was gone. Never paid child support (even though it was court ordered). Today, she is a single mother, on welfare, working a factory job. She dropped out of school when she was 16. She made a 1550 on her SAT and had already been granted scholarships to a few colleges. Her GPA in high-school was a 3.75 out of 4.00 possible points.

In that instance, I would say that NO, the 'father' in that situation should not have been consulted. Of course, she was under no obligation to do so, but she did because she thought it was the right thing to do. I fear that having that abortion changed her life for the worst

You should have added another option :Depends on the situation and the relationship with the man.

[Frangible]

70. A complex answer to a simple question...

Yes and no.

I think men should have a say in whatever law / decision makes abortion legal (or illegal).

However, once that law is in place, the woman should be able to get it without consulting with the man.

I'm opposed to abortion after a certain point in fetal development, but until then, I think it should be exclusively the woman's choice.

[VermontDem2004]

74. Voted No

But I think the man has a say in the situation but I feel that the woman should make the final decision.

[mmonk]

75. Here's a twist

First of all, I support Roe v. Wade. That being said however, I have a question for the women.

You have said we (men) should be excluded because we don't bear the child. What if it were REVERSED? Should you be excluded from any decisions whether to give birth? Should you just be considered a "donor"? I'd like to see your answers.

[Selwynn]

76. Once again, the reason this poll doesn't work: "say" is ambiguous

I posted a poll that got locked for being a "dupe" of this poll which it completely was not. That poll asked a direct question: should the father have the right to overrule the mother on the question of abortion?

The REASON that poll is more interesting is because a lot of the people here are saying things like "I voted yes because I think the father and mother should make the decision together," then ADDING "though the ultimate decision should be the mothers."

When I put up my poll there were a sigificant number of votes for saying that yes the father should have the right to overrule the mother. It was very suprising.

So how about answering that question: Should the father have the right to overrule the mother on the question of abortion, yes or no?

[mmonk]

83. There is no right of overrule

therefore, I pose the question as it exists with the same situation, just reversed. I was looking for consistency in opinion without what ifs or alternatives like that which faces men.

[Selwynn]

85. A lot of people think their should be - the questions asks "should"

Unfortunately, all the posters are qualifing their answers and skewing the poll, so the only thing you are consistently getting is bad data.

[rocktivity]

79. Under no cirucumstances, legal or otherwise

should there BE circumstances that would force any woman to have (or NOT have) a baby.


rocknation

[Shyriath]

80. Yes, BUT...

Only if that man is the woman's husband, and only if he is the genetic father of the child; it that case, he should have a legal say exactly equal to that of the wife. In all other cases, the woman should have the last word.

On edit: On the other hand, even if the woman is married to the father of the child, it's possible that he still would try to force a child on her without her approval. If this could somehow be proven the case, the husband's participation in the decision should be revoked, though whether or not that would be feasible in a legal setting is another matter...

[Polemonium]

86. Some things you can't legislate,

Ultimately, I, a man will never be able to enforce a no abortion without my permission law. I would love to be in the loop, but making it legal is rediculous.