Okay, I have had enough...

[childslibrarian]

The Sunday morning talk shows were like a Republican advertisement. If I see another Repub pushing Gephardt and dissing Dean and Clark as being of no consequence....We have to go for an outsider to Washington for president. The senators that are running are in the Repubs pocket.They are so wimpy it is ridiculous. And I gave money to Kerry's campaign in the beginning...
And as for you Dean and Clark people...they need to be together on the ticket. I don't care which one is the top of the ticket--they compliment each other. However I can say Dean effectively articulates the anger that I am currently feeling..and I am a mild mannered librarian....

[quaker bill]

1. Welcome aboard.

I completely agree.

[Pastiche423]

2. IMHO

Dean will lose many supporters if clark is on the ticket.

[Warpy]

14. I don't agree.

After all, the real alternative is BUSH!

[Pastiche423]

15. No it isn't

Dean can pick another running partner and win.

[MODemocrat]

37. Why do you say that?

I'm a staunch Dean supporter, but yet, I'd be ever so happy is Clark were to be on the ticket. I think it would balance out pretty well.
Oh, well, no one has ever accused me of being a saavy political ideal. :think: ;)

[mrgorth]

56. WHAT????

.

[terrya]

3. I completely agree, my friend.

I've heard one of the slams about Dean being electable is that he isn't a Southerner. The last 3 Democratic Presidents were from the South.

I may repsectfully suggest that another statistic. That 4 of the last 7 Presidents were governors instead of members of Congress.

That would suggest that Dean has a very good chance indeed.

I'd like to see a Dean/Clark ticket myself. But I could support Clark if he were the nominee.

Both Dean and Clark seem, to me, to articulate the anger many Americans are feeling. That's what we need...anger. Because thinks are bad in this country under this President, folks. Hell, I don't have to tell you nice folks. And they're going to get much, much worse with 4 more years of this current Administration.

[caledesi]

23. A big Amen! nt

[blm]

4. Can you share how you conclude that the Senators are in GOP pockets?

.

[childslibrarian]

6. Because they refuse to really fight...

I wrote Kerry early in his campaign when he mentioned a regime change...then all was silent ...for months...Even yesterday I read an article on how Kerry is now decisive instead of taking into consideration all positions. He changed his very character? Truthfully, I think the nature of a Senator is to look at all sides.
But we have a president who is clearly very wrong on every single issue he supports. We need opposition to him and his cronies, not debate...

[displacedtexan]

33. did you write to the campaign or the senate office?

all letters to the senate office in the russell bldg are answered. an answer from the campaign could be problematic. have you ever volunteered for a campaign? people send copies of NY times and WAPO articles and ask if the candiate has seen them. it takes a long time to go through the mail. check out the websites and call one of the campaign offices.

[blm]

38. Funny thing. Just because the media didn't bring it up

it doesn't happen, right?

In 2002 there were two who came out hard against Bush, Gore and Kerry. The fights here back then were which one was hitting Bush harder. The press would barely address what the two were saying, they just mocked them as if noone took them seriously.

Because Dean began attacking the other Democrats he started to get the attention of the press. Then they started selling him as the ONLY Dem standing up to Bush. They completely ignored the substantive criticisms from other candidates.

Just because YOU didn't hear it or didn't pay attention to it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[ablbodyed]

7. Cewrtainly Lieberman is....

And I distrust ANYONE who is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo religious. 90% of the misery in the world comes from, or is justified on religious grounds.

[caledesi]

24. Totally agree ab. nt

[jafap]

51. your statistic only shows your bias

90%? How can you even measure the total misery? How much of it comes from disease? And how many hospitals were started by Catholics or Lutherans, etc? How much of it comes from poverty and deprivation? And how many religious organizations are involved in food banks and other donations? How much of it comes from car accidents? More than 10% I would guess - 40,000+ deaths a year is alot of misery.

Do you think Lieberman is more religious than Lincoln was? Or how about Carter?

[Scott Lee]

5. You are correct - Dean/Clarke!

I've been saying this for months, and many times been brushed off by pamphlet trained party hacks who can't think beyond their own predigested crapola. Dean DOES tap into the seething anger of a helluvah lot of us, and that was still simmering from the 2000 Selection.

The point is; what's wrong with anger? Anger can be good. Anger is an energy (thanks to John Lydon and PIL). When anger is not destructive it is a potent force for change. Let Dean be the launch point of our anger, and let someone like Clarke catch his back. The outcome will be tremendous - an end to the Democratic lethargy that would finally consign these laughable republican lite candidates to the political glue factory.

[caledesi]

25. I have NO problem with anger, because I am angry! nt

[childslibrarian]

8. The Democratic motto for 2004 should be...

And now we tell the TRUTH...and then tell it...
No more justifications....
No more half truths....

[imax2268]

9. I think that

Dean for Pres and Clark as his VP would be hard to beat...

[caledesi]

27. imax....my dream ticket Dean/Clark!

[imax2268]

45. Hey...it might happen...

if those two put their heads together now...work with each other...look out...!

[jumptheshadow]

10. The latest Repug meme

First they were insinuating, without any evidence at all, that Clark was unstable.

Now they are dismissing him, ignoring him, or saying that he will not be a factor in the primaries. The latest talking point was made by Tony Blankley on McLauglin Group, who predicted that Clark will be in "single digits" within weeks.

I see Clark as gaining momentum if he gets airtime and as he refines his stands on issues.

I would like to see a scientifically poll done on Clark and military voters. If the Army Times poll reflects military sentiment at all, then that would be a very powerful argument for Clark in his bid for mid-America and Southern primary votes.

[caledesi]

28. Those bastards are trying to "McCain" Clark.

Makes me sick. :puke: Whenever these bastards have a REAL military hero, they play the "nuts" card. I am so angry about this and I am a Dean supporter. Go figure!

[kalian]

11. And shrub is calling the "liberal media" "filters"....

:eyes:

[DebJ]

16. I was reading that story in our local paper too...

where they said Bush said he likes his news 'filtered' by Condie et al. Of course SOMEONE has to filter his news, because he can't read it himself! Short-bus Pres!

[sandnsea]

12. lol

You people have not even begun to have 'had enough'. If anybody on the left had TRULY 'had enough', they'd be flocking to Dennis Kucinich. They're not. We aren't anywhere NEAR 'had enough'.

[Padraig18]

13. Maybe all 'the left' is *already* with DK?

Ya think, maybe?

[sandnsea]

17. Well, maybe

I hope not, that'd be a damn shame.

The whole thing is baffling. Supporting a centrist compromiser and pretending he's an anti-establishment outsider who is going to turn D.C. upside down. Especially when you've got a true anti-establishment guy who really WOULD turn things upside down. I am totally baffled about the state of the American mind.

[Padraig18]

20. Ehhh

A center-left party supporting a centrist isn't all THAT bizarre, really. :shrug:

[sandnsea]

22. Who's anti-establishment????

Who's going to 'take back the country' from the DLC centrists?? It's incredibly bizarre. It's the most bizarre thing I've seen in my entire life. It's more bizarre than Reagan Democrats. It's all hype from here on out. Substance and ideas are dead.

[Padraig18]

29. Hmmm

Maybe the electorate isn't anti-establishment?

[unfrigginreal]

32. I guess you missed Dean's interview on C-SPAN tonight

At one point he was talking about how surprised he was to find the high level of mistrust that the American people have towards corporations. How corporations have been selling out the country by moving jobs overseas and setting up headquarters in foreign countries to avoid taxes.

As far as taking the country back, he's talking about taking it back from the Right Wing, but you already knew that. The only thing that he's doing as far as the DLC is pointing out that they have not been effective as leaders of the opposition party.

BTW, if you didn't see the interview, it will be repeated at 9:30 and 12:30 on CSPAN.

[sandnsea]

40. He was surprised

Yeah, I saw it. That was just ONE comment that told me how clueless he is about what Americans really think. Did you not hear the 'other side of the tracks' comment? Or his classic theories on southern whites and race?

And I know what I hear and Dean is just attacking everybody. If he didn't have somebody to attack, he wouldn't have a campaign. And after looking at his supporters in the final segment, I clearly see why I don't connect to Howard Dean. I have absolutely nothing in common with those people, never have, never will. For the most part, they're the kind of liberal elites I avoid like the plague.

[unfrigginreal]

42. OMG! You support Kerry and consider Deans supporters liberal elites?

LOL! :wtf:

[sandnsea]

44. The ones I saw

Yep, totally out of touch with regular Americans. Elitists. I was not impressed at all.

[unfrigginreal]

49. Interesting...

I've been checking out a few political(non-candidate) blogs tonight and there seems to be widespread opinion that Kerry came off as an elitist snob. That $70,000 family that he's so worried about seemed to drive the point home for a lot of people that Kerry spends too much time in DC.

But hey we all see things differently. I've got to admit that here on DU, it seems that many think your guy did well tonight.

[sandnsea]

52. What??

I live in nowheresville and know alot of two-income families who make $70,000 a year. That's only $35,000 a piece you know. That's middle America and they buy cars and appliances and pay tuition and property taxes and keep the economy going. I have absolutely no problem with them keeping their tax cut.

[aquart]

36. These procrustean designations mean nothing to me.

I haven't a clue who you're talking about now.

Stop, please, trying to fit our candidates on the head of a political pin.

Tell me where they stand on Bush's tax giveaway. On the debt. On the war. On the occupation. ON NATIONAL HEALTH. On air. On water. On land.

Don't hand me those idiot labels and expect them to mean a thing to me.

We keep using terms without giving their definitions on the spurious belief that others know what they mean.

Well, I don't. Is there a really good chance a lot of other Americans don't?

What does centrist mean?

What does liberal mean?

What does progressive mean?

If I guess I think I know, do I? Define your terms before you use them or they're nothing but cant.

[sandnsea]

41. Then what does Bush-lite mean?

Or Congressional cockroaches? Or Washington insiders? Why does Dean use terms if terms don't mean anything?

[library_max]

31. How does that follow?

"We've had enough of Bush, so let's make sure he gets four more years"?

:wtf:

[sandnsea]

43. ????

I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Who said anything about making sure Bush gets four more years? I just said if this is truly a grassroots movement for a candidate because he's going to bring change to D.C., Kucinich ought to be the candidate with that support. Dean is just more of the same, he said on C-Span that he appoints a staff, lets them do their job and governs by consensus. People are supporting the same old thing while deluding themselves with the idea there's going to be some dramatic change. It's completely baffling.

[JohnKleeb]

46. max finds Kucinich unelectable

I tell you if I got a dollar for everytime someone said I like Kucinich but hes unelectable, well you know I know its gonna be hard but you gotta believe. We may not have the money Dean has Sand, but I think we got heart above all, and heart may not matter for some of you all, but I tell you being a Kucinich supporter is the biggest honor yet its one of the hardest things, is it noble and worth it, you bet. I just hope the next president and out of all the candiates I trust Kucinich to keep us out of war, I may be a pacifist I may not be but one thing is for sure, war is wrong.

[sandnsea]

48. Hey, I just like consistency

I'm not totally behind Kucinich's plans, but I'm not pretending my candidate is a throw 'em out on their asses and turn the place upside down guy either. Just seems to me if these people really wanted that, they'd get behind Kucinich because that's what he's about. And if that had happened, Kucinich would be way ahead and hell, I might get all excited and think maybe the country really was ready for a change and jump on board myself! And once cynical old people like me are on board, well then you've got something going on! So it makes me angry because I know we all want change, but Dean isn't going to provide it at all and the candidates that would at least offer real progress are being drowned out by hype. It's just so disturbing.

And Kucinich would probably keep us out of a war, but I have a friend who has a theory of opposites. Whatever a President runs on the MOST, expect the opposite. Not because they're intentionally being liars, but something to do with his idea of human nature. What we want most is the thing we can't figure out ourselves (or something like that) so we end up continuing to create the opposite of what we really want to create. I've kind of noticed it to be sort of true in retrospect, but haven't done so great in seeing it before the fact. Anyway, his theory would say we'd get in a war with Kucinich and a really bad one, because he so strongly wants peace. Just a little ramble there.

[JohnKleeb]

50. I know but I dont think hes a warmongrel

I dunno I dont expact Kucinich to turn in to a right winger on us lol. I think you could be on to something, remember Kucinich didnt enter until the past year or so, I see what you mean sand.

[sandnsea]

53. That was just rambling

Dennis turning into the mad freeper, lol. NO I don't think that would happen. I was just throwing out a weird political theory I had heard, just for kicks.

[library_max]

54. Saying "change, change" doesn't get you change.

If you don't win the election and you don't unseat the incumbent, you don't get change.

As for "the same old thing," do you really believe that the Bush administration has been the "same old thing" as the Clinton administration? That there's no difference worth worrying about?

[Skittles]

18. I heard all about you librarians from Michael Moore

welcome to the DU! :hi:

[childslibrarian]

21. What does Michael Moore say about librarians?

We need to win this election. WIN it. We can't handle 4 more years. He will destroy the country. We need Centrist Candidates who can WIN.

[Skittles]

34. MM says librarians KICK ASS!!!

they were responsible for getting his book (Stupid White Men( published after he refused to "tone it down" (criticism of Bush) after 9/11. :D

[lostnfound]

35. Didn't Ashcroft say librarians were hysterical?

So which is it -- hysterics or asskickers?

[spooky3]

19. Dean/Clark is ABB, so that's good--but I'd prefer Dean/Edwards or

vice versa.

[HFishbine]

26. It's those mild mannered librarians

you have to watch out for.

[childslibrarian]

30. Yeah because when you get us pissed...

It takes a lot, but when we do, get out of the way...

[Evanstondem]

39. Sounds good to me, librarian!

I prefer Dean-Clark.

[Lexingtonian]

47. Welcome to Phase 1

Phase 2 is where you realize that his shtick is the same as that of the used car dealers on Route 1 running north out of Boston. The same smugness, the same aversion to inconvenient facts and people who know them, the preference for selling his stuff to people who are somewhat hysterical, and the sense of power that emanates from the dark rather than the light. That's when you go back to Undecided.

Phase 3 is where you reach the conclusion that "actually, I don't want someone who is really merely the Anti-Bush- I want a President who is a Democrat, who will get stuff done and won't end up Tom DeLay's bitch by trying to play him in the gutter."

[lapauvre]

55. I am waiting for some position on Israel

For over fifty years we have been using tax payer dollars to
support Israel.  I am personally aware that any dead body is a
dead human being.

For over forty years I have been watching Palestinians throw
rocks at tanks, artillary, and be totally unsupported in human
rights by America.  The US was the only one to vote, in the UN
against the "tear down that wall" issued to Israel. 


Dean is married to an orthodox Jew.  Clark, perhaps looking
for votes, is "half jewish."

I have absolutely nothing against those of the Judiac faith. 
But, unless and until I hear from Dean and Clark, on how they
intend to deal with the nation of Israel, I am not going to
willingly vote for them.

If you wonder where all the rocks come from, over the past
forty years, for the Palestinians to throw at the tanks of
Israel, I think you have to be aware that it is the rubble of
what was once their homes.

It is time for America to stop feeling guilty about the
holocaust, and time, from my reading of the old testament, for
those of the Judiac faith to stop demanding justice from
living human taxpayers in America.

Justifiably, the first ten years or so, we should have sent
aid to Israel.  Justifiably.  As I recall, there is a saying,
"Never forget," or "Never again."  Well,
does that only apply to those of the Judiac faith, or does it
apply, universally, to human life.  And can either Dean or
Clark deal with that question?

And, are we, the tax payers, the guilty, so damned guilty that
we will sit by and watch and support a repetition of human
abuse?  Apparently so.

I will vote ABB, anybody but bush, but I will not vote happily
for these two candidates, until the issue of Israel is
addressed fully.