Over heard at the coffee shop this morning while I was having breakfast:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

There are always about five older men, usually farmers, sitting around this round table in the back of the cafe in the morning. This morning, they were discussing the deficit and George Bush.
"I think the man is trying to shut this country down."

"The deficit is out of control. How much money does that man think he can spend even when we're out?"

"I voted for him, but now I wish I hadn't. Have you seen oil prices?"

And several other things along the same lines. I guess everyone is getting tired of this crap too. I just thought you guys might enjoy hearing about how small town, rural republicans in Oklahoma are feeling. It's a good thing.
Duckie

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. The only tragedy is they probably had that same conversation

a year ago, then voted for him last November.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

3. I believe I heard them call Kerry a flip flopper last fall.

God, I'd love to be a fly on the wall sometimes in that place.
Duckie

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Too bad you don't join in the conversation and say

remember in the debates when Bush said Kerry was trying to scare people about social security?

[jswordy]

10. What good would that do?

People have to come to these kinds of conclusions themselves, and they usually do in groups of like-minded friends when the leader types in the group suddenly realize their impressions are not being reinforced by reality anymore.

When that happens, the groups turn. Once they do that, it feeds on itself. The whole thing is like a battleship turning. It takes awhile for it to start, but once it does turn, you cannot stop it easily.

Had someone else injected themselves at that point, the whole group would have snapped back to its defensive positions of support for Bush, because it would have felt attacked. Our party and its members need to learn this sociological fact, and tactfully let people have the time to decide the facts for themselves while still always pressing our cause.

I think Bush himself started it, really, with his SS message. People didn't buy that at all, and now that doubt of him has opened to floodgates to other doubts.

The waters are just starting to pour out.

[rfranklin]

12. But yell "gay marriage" and they would all vote for him again...

Remember how bad his ratings were before the election?

[jswordy]

20. No. Call them stupid, as we like to do, and they will vote for him again.

The whole "values" thing was an easy media handle, blown out of proportion. What Republicans have learned is how to sell to folks, to get folks feeling like the GOP is just like them, and to identify with the party.

In contrast, Democrats say, "If you don't think like me, yer a dumbass." Not a good way to make friends and voters.

[Catherine Vincent]

4. That's what I was thinking too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. Because he was "strong"

Yeah, I know.

Riding the bus in Minneapolis just before the election, I heard two blue collar types talking about how they were going to vote for Bush because "Cheney doesn't take nothing from nobody."

Sigh!

But there's a lesson here for Dems who think that the way to win swing voters is to play nice with the Republicans.

Nope, the way to win swing voters is to be the party that don't take nothing from nobody.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. Guess they never figured he'd bully them too

fools!

[jswordy]

18. Agree, Lydia, but there is one other thing.

The way to win their votes is not to call them stupid ignorant assholes, as we so often and publicly do. (Check this thread, for one example!) There is a huge difference between the art of persuasion and the art of character assassination. We have far too much of the latter, which drives otherwise D-leaning voters away from us. But we are just starting to learn, I think, that the way to get folks to like you is not to insult them. Heh.

[HughBeaumont]

19. SHeeeeeeet . . ..

The Saudi royals say "Jump" and HalliCheney says "Pant, pant, How high, daddy, how high? And do you want this ball gag further in my piehole?"

Cheney will do whatever his sheeted bitchmasters tell him to.

[patrice]

2. Shame is a powerful experience.

What we are doing to our children and all future generations is SHAMEFUL!

[jswordy]

6. Overheard at a gas station/diner yesterday...

Same deal, local yokels having coffee and eggs...

First: "I don't know what it's coming to. Look at these gas prices here."

Second: "Yeah, it's this way now: Pay for your food, or pay for your medicines. You choose."

First: "I just don't see us going in the right way."

Third: Me, neither. We need to get our minds off other countries and back on our own. This is a hurting time."

First: "It looks bad, if you ask me."

I was paying for gas, I left on that last comment. This conversation was being held in ALABAMA (66% Bush in '04).

The tide is changing. I knew it would, eventually.

[BiggJawn]

7. So are they gonna send impeachment-minded Dems to congress...

...Next year, to fix the damn problem?

Naw...Democrats might try to legalize homo weddings if they take over....

They voted for him. and until they turn up the heat on their congress-critters to get his ass out of there, they're STUCK with him for the next 3.75 years...

[jswordy]

13. Yeah...and let's not forget, DEMOCRATS are supporting his...

...agendas in pretty large numbers. Bankruptcy "reform" (:puke:) passed the Senate 74-25...that's a lot of DEMOCRATS voting yea, folks.

Democratic senators support the gun-maker shield law, which removes lawsuits as pressure on gunmakers to develop safer weapons, and there are be enough Democrats voting to support ANWR drilling to make it happen.

I say, remember those Democrats. Check the actual votes!

[rockymountaindem]

14. I'm with you.

A few anecdotes does not a sea change make. What about all those people we talked about before the election who didn't want to vote for Bush again, or who we switching over from Nader? Not enough.

[jswordy]

17. Many Democratic pols are playing their own ruse now...

...where they hold up SS as the BIG FIGHT where they are standing up against Bush, and they use that issue as a huge smokescreen. Meanwhile, they are quietly voting to advance Bush's legislative agendas.

KNOW HOW YOUR LOCAL U.S. CONGRESSMEN AND WOMEN ARE ACTUALLY VOTING!

Many Democratic pols are even SAYING they disagree with Bush agendas, and then actually voting FOR THEM. They know what they SAY will get the sound bite, but their actually vote is never reported in the normal course of coverage.

Dig and find out those actual individual votes...you will be amazed at what is really happening.

[stopbush]

11. The most disgusting thing about these people is their self-centered-ness

and sense of entitlement.

The world has known for a couple of years that bush is a murderer and a disaster. But it didn't matter to these assholes that over 100,000 innocents had been killed in Iraq by us, that 1,000 of own own were dead, that * fell down on the job and let 9/11 happen, that the economy is in the dumpster, that the chronically unemployed are reaching record non-Depression levels, that our trade deficits and national debt are at record levels, and on and on. Nope. None of it mattered until - heaven forfend - THEY had to suddenly pay over $2 for a gallon of gas! The suffering of others is of no consequence to them. They have no empathy for the rest of the world.

If gas prices were to drop to $1.50 a gallon next week, they'd take the $ they just saved and mail it off to the RNC...or this week's hot tele-evangelist.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[jswordy]

16. SHRUG...BILL CLINTON showed low gas prices work for Democrats, too.

In the end, it all comes down to the individual. Tip O'Neil: "All politics is local." How true. Shrug.

[stopbush]

27. I well remember Clinton's last summer in office -

gas was $.89 a gallon in NJ.

[jswordy]

28. STOP IT...yer making me cry! Sigh....

But everything will be OK when our Democratic pols join with the fuckin' Repugs to pass ANWR drilling legislation. You just WAIT AND SEE!

Shit...now I AM crying...

[denverbill]

15. Wait'll 2006. They forget everything and vote on gay marriage.

They are truly that stupid.

[MuseRider]

21. Wait until they go out to

fertilize their crops. If they are stunned now they just may plotz over for good then. I am awaiting my bill :scared:

[jswordy]

22. Muse, I was just talking to a crop farmer here about fertilizer prices...

...which are dependent on natural gas to make the N. Made me glad I raise cattle! :)

[MuseRider]

23. I did not know

you were a cattle rancher! I raise horses (a BAD investment at this point) and brome grass to feed them and pay off the guy that bales them for me. The strange weather the last few years is driving me crazy because I pay that enormous fertilizer bill then the weather brings us 80's in April and my crop stunts at about 4 inches. If I could afford it I would switch to prairie hay, would love to for many reasons but I don't have about $10,000.00 to do that either. Since we lost our co op I have to depend on others to do the work because I don't have the needed equipment to transport the fertilizer from the next town. It just really stinks right now and I do not see it getting much better in the future.

[jswordy]

24. Cattle farmer.

I have the luxury of living in Tennessee, where it is warm and grass grows abundantly, and the stocking rate is one cow/calf per acre. I hate horses, to be honest. They are black holes into which you pour money. They can be useful as tax-losses in an otherwise profitable operation (especially when it comes to equipment), but they are very hard on pastures, as they like to rip the grass out by the roots. (All spoken like a true cattleman, huh? Heheheh.)

Have you ever looked into IRM (Integrated Resource Management)? A growing thing out West especially, where the whole system is looked at and artificial inputs like fertilizer and mechanized harvest are strictly rationed by need. Your inputs and outputs are closely monitored as to how they affect profitability. The way "it has always been done" is usually the first thing thrown out the window when the figures comes in!

You have an excellent resource in KSU. See this list:

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/IRM/BIBLDATA.htm

[MuseRider]

25. Wow thanks!

I agree about the horses. I started this as a sport, bred for the sporting horses. Cutting to be specific. It was a big money maker around here until the Bush** economy has made it a sport for only the very rich who go in together and buy only the very best and have left the rest of us sucking on the fact that we now can barely give them away. I love them so I keep them but the thought of ever making a dime is now gone from my plans. Still, I love the farm and the life.

Thanks for the site and the info. I looked into some of it a few years ago until I realized what it entailed moneywise. This is different, something to really look into that I had no idea about. I really appreciate it. I tried doing something like that myself but since I really did not know anything I really messed up. Besides, hand spraying 53 acres is not a lot of fun.

I am going to check this out right now. K State is a great resource for all things farm and livestock.

[jswordy]

29. MuseRider, take this to the bank!

And never forget it! Horses are always, and always have been, a sport for the rich. That is why it is such a boom and bust cycle with them. During flush times, the rabble get in it, but they are soon shaken out again when times get tough, cuz only the very rich can sustain the loss periods. In essence, the horse game is one where the very rich capitalize on the losses of the unwashed masses when they get in during the booms. The rich scoop off the boomtime cash, and then wait out the cycle til next time. I know, I have a rich neice into Arabians.

Cattle work on a cycle, too. That is why LOW INPUTS are so important. I think if you study low input farming, and start to raise your horses more like cattle, you might find a better payoff. However, you must HIDE THIS FACT from the "horsie people" and APPEAR as though you are doing the high-dollar boogie. Image is so much in the horse crowd, another reason it ain't for me.

IRM has other benefits. By using less chemical fertilizers and such, you will be saving money and also working with your natural ranch's microsystems to encourage maximum production for minimum outlay. That benefits all of nature, too.

Good luck.

[MuseRider]

30. LOL

I truly had NO idea. I am a city girl who always wanted to farm, it was in my families past but nothing I had ever experienced. I bought my farm and built the barns on money I got when my family all died. The entire small community around the area had a pool on how long I would last. I have toughed it out and learned because they began to realize I meant to stay and they helped me.

The horse thing, I stay out of it now. I thought the cowboy stuff was different but I now know differently. I am now content (it took a while to shake loose of it) just to be and have my horses be horses and friends who occasionally will be required to pay for their keep by hauling me around a little bit. No more show trims and horsie make-up for my horses. We are content just to be.

The farming and doing it right for the land and nature are now the things that truly interest me. I have created by selective non interference some cool sections for wildlife and now need to figure the rest of it out, you have helped put me on track.

For me this is a life style choice, kind of like a back in time thing and it suits me. I totally agree with you on the horse business. I learned the hard way. Again, thanks.

[jswordy]

31. Gawd, I could see the richies licking their lips when you showed up!

BUT YOU SURVIVED! Way to go. Check out IRM, there is a bunch of stuff at Google on it. New Zealand has excellent resources, they are maybe 30 years ahead of us on it, and their grassland is much like the Sandhills.

I can't farm alone for a living, like most farmers can't, but it is a lifestyle I love.

One huge benefit of coming to it is, you are not tied down by "that's the way daddy did it," and so you are more open to new ideas and can frequently exploit them better for more proftability.

I think I read elsewhere that you won't farm to sell meat, otherwise I'd recommend you look into goats. The influx of Hispanics into Kansas has been unreal, and they love goat meat!

Nice to find someone here who is not urban.

[MuseRider]

32. I may be small

but my heart is strong and good hard work is food for my soul. Actually, these are all poor farmers. My farm is in one of the poorest areas in Kansas but the city is moving in quickly and it is increasingly surrounded by big Tudor houses on 3 acre plots with folks who are afraid of the outdoors. Oh well, I got my land and I am NOT leaving.

This is not my living thank goodness or I would starve! I have never been put to the test of having to raise something for slaughter. As long as I don't have to I choose not to but I do not hold anyone in contempt who does. I don't have to like it to accept that it is OK for most people.

I am afraid if I had goats, and I would love to they are so cool, they would all have names and eat on my porch. I have considered a few for milk but I have not looked into what all that would mean for the keeping of them.

There are actually quite a few of us non urbans here. I am still not living on my farm (house plans are almost complete). Go here to find more. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=268

I have not checked that group for a while but there were quite a few. Again, thanks for the resource. I intend to take advantage of it.

[jswordy]

33. Well I'll be!

There are so many different boards on here, I can never keep up with them all.

[elperromagico]

26. Every time I see an OK license plate, I mutter "66%."

That's how many voted for that jackass. Every fucking county went for Bush.

I'm ashamed that it's my native state.