Man Spits in Jane Fonda's Face at Book Signing

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=10&u=/nm/20050420/ts_nm/people_fonda_dc

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (Reuters) - A man who said he was a Vietnam veteran spat tobacco juice in Jane Fonda's face at a Kansas City book signing, police said on Wednesday.

The man, 54-year-old Michael Smith, waited in line for about 90 minutes before spitting a "large amount" of tobacco juice into Fonda's face, according to Kansas City police. Smith was arrested and charged with disorderly conduct.

The 67-year-old Oscar-winning actress was in town as part of a book-signing tour for her newly released autobiography titled "My Life So Far."

In the book, she addresses her position as a polarizing figure for many Vietnam veterans and others who were outraged when Fonda made a highly publicized trip to Hanoi to oppose the Vietnam war in 1972.

[shoelace414]

1. Someone tell Coluter about this travesty!

[katinmn]

11. That's so disgusting and juvenile

[shoelace414]

46. she complains that

liberal throw pies in Conservatives faces, but Conservatives don't do things like that.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Mr Smith needs to GET THE FUCK OVER IT!

Fonda's apologized about 10 freakin' times for the Hanoi visit.

This guy's gotta be a card-carrying freeper...:eyes:

[BikeWriter]

4. That's your opinion. I for one can never forgive her...

and I'm no freeper!

[atreides1]

8. But

Would you spit in her face, or would you just tell her how you felt and why you felt betrayed by what she did?

[BikeWriter]

14. I wouldn't spit in her face, no. I would have loved to have seen her...

tried for treason for cheerleading Hanoi on.

[saracat]

12. For what ? Being naive?

And for fundamentally being right? I remember Mei Lei. Our soldiers weren't all saints.But it wasn't their fault. . Never the less, there was nothing laudable about our actions in Vietnam. And it seems that if Jane was guilty of anything , it was being stupid and allowing her pictures to be used in a manner that wasn't intended. She ought not to have let her picture be taken at all! But to hate someone for that is ridiculous! Maybe you can't forgive all of us , including the Vets , who felt the same as she did?

[BikeWriter]

17. It's not my place to forgive her...

for the ones she harmed the worst. Those whose names are on the wall.

[saracat]

20. Why don't you blame the ones that killed them? The government?

Jane Fonda was only an actress who said what the rest of us were thinking! Do you blame us too?

[BikeWriter]

29. I did blame the government. Still do for that matter.

Did you go to Hanoi with her? Did you tell the world our POWs were being treated humanely and we were torturing our prisoners? Did you call our POWs liars and selfish opportunists when they returned?

[saracat]

98. No. But I didn't think our soldiers were angels either. And I did speak

out against people like Major Callie, and I also think there were more like him than we care to admit! And we DID torture some of our prisoners and some of our POWs were treated humanely. There were variables to everything! Neither side were angels or devils. I don't happen to believe we are wonderful and blameless just because we are American. Both sides were wrong in that war.

[mark414]

106. she sat on an anti-aircraft gun

that was used to kill US soldiers

i suppose i would call myself neutral on the subject, but i completely understand why plenty of vietnam vets (like our pal bikewriter above), liberal or conservative, would have a negative opinion of her.

for some, it's like if betty grable would've been hanging out in german pill boxes on omaha beach

you don't have to agree with something to understand why someone feels what they do

[Seabiscuit]

128. You can't have it both ways.

You can't blame the government for American deaths in Vietnam while simultaneously blaming Jane Fonda for those deaths because she protested the government's actions.

This is the first time I've ever seen *anyone*, and that includes the most ardent right-wing warhawks of the 1960's, blame Jane Fonda for the deaths of our soldiers in Vietnam. Utterly preposterous and irrational BS.

I don't care who she offended. Her cause was true. She was right to say and do the things she said and did. She was courageous. She called international attention to the travesty being committed by our government which was solely responsible for half a million American deaths and millions of Vietnamese deaths.

Why not take out your hostilities in a more constructive way, such as spitting tobacco juice in Ann Coulter's face?

[ohiosmith]

130. Right on brother.

[Seabiscuit]

131. Yo!

Ho! Ho!
Ho Chi Minh!
Vietcong
Are gonna win!

My bumper sticker during the Vietnam War was a North Vietnamese flag.
Every so often some construction worker would flip me the bird.

Now it's an old 2003 "Dean For America" bumper sticker on my old car: a 1993 Toyota Corolla. Today I was out shopping in it and some a-hole in a humungous SUV shouted at me: "Fuck Dean". I shouted back: "How do you like the gas prices?" It jammed his borgian wetware circuitry so badly he slammed on his brakes, not knowing what to think or say.


The times they are a-changin'.


"It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers" - - James Thurber (who also wrote: "You can fool too many of the people too much of the time")

[Bridget Burke]

21. She didn't put any of those names on the wall.

What's your opinion of Robert McNamara? He was responsible for quite a few of those names, has lived to regret it & is now a respected elder statesman.

[BikeWriter]

30. Screw Robert McNamara.

[Politicub]

26. Puh-lease

You have a flair for the dramatic. Perhaps you should be a fox news correspondent.

:eyes:

[BikeWriter]

34. I will defend the honor of my fellow vets she called liars...

You think what you want about her! Hug the bitch!

[ohiosmith]

44. Some of your fellow vets were liars. Remember My Lai. Maybe you should

hug "the bitch". You should thank her and people like her for bringing an end to that war, and possibly saving your ass.

[BikeWriter]

48. Yes, there were atrocities and lies. That does not excuse her lies.

No apology can.

[ohiosmith]

51. Should the combat vets who committed atrocities and lied be forgiven?

[BikeWriter]

59. I don't know. It's not my place to forgive them either...

They can only live with themselves.

[ohiosmith]

66. OK! I get it. Ain't no forgiving going on here. When you returned,

did you do anything to help end the war and bring our men and women home?

[BikeWriter]

92. Excuse me? I was active in Veteran's affairs...

and still am. Again, I supported the troops, not the war.

[ohiosmith]

93. The way to support the troops was by ending the war. Did you take

any action to demonstrate that you were against the war?

[BikeWriter]

102. Excuse me. I don't recall starting that war...

perhaps I did. I do know it was not my responsibility to end it. Why is it Veterans so often wind up on the defensive for following orders and doing what they were told is their duty? I hope our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan will not feel as if they're being condemned when they get home.

[saracat]

99. And some Vets continue to be liars as for example the Swiftboat Vets for

Truth. The fact that they are vets doesn't necessarily make them truth tellers!

[MollyStark]

135. oh well, you poisong no one but yourself

Too bad for you. I had a good friend come back and live with PTSD his whole life. He understood what she was doing and he never held a grudge against her. In fact I never knew any vet who held a grudge against her.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

31. Some people can't let it go

It's part of a destructive and tragic pathology.

Imagine if we all defined ourselves by things that happened thirty or forty years ago.

The obviously troubled man who spat at Ms. Fonda - nice work, spitting tobacco juice on a 67-year-old woman at a book signing - needs to be helped. He's clearly consumed by a long-standing anger and a need to be noticed.

My pity goes out to all these poor souls who can't forgive, can't forget, and so are owned by things that no longer matter. They're prisoners of the saddest sort.

[BikeWriter]

35. Hee hee hee! Would you like to see what the combat Vets...

at my Vet's forum think of your theories? I can provide you an url. :)

[Bridget Burke]

36. Provide the URL to their feelings about Robert McNamara...

& ensure us that all of them are really vets.

[BikeWriter]

49. Screw Robert McNamara. This thread is about Jane Fonda.

[Bridget Burke]

61. So your so-called-vet buddies forgive the man ....

Who actually helped put the names of their so-called-comrades on that wall.

Jane was foolish but she was right to oppose the war. She is also a rich & famous woman who looks great for her age. You couldn't touch her then & you can't touch her now.

[BikeWriter]

70. When did it become your business who I can touch?

and who I can't, and who said we forgive McNamara? Show me where I said that?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

76. That's what annoys them, I think

She's gone on and lived her life, made mistakes, had lots of successes, and been honest with herself, to whatever extent any human being is capable of honesty with oneself.

These poor souls, unable to comprehend that Jane Fonda wasn't the villain, have locked onto the one woman who stands out in all the Vietnam mess.

The one woman.

They stay silent on the subject of McNamara and his cohorts.

But they fixate - for decades - on the one woman.

Interesting, no?

[meppie-meppie not]

78. precisely! I could not have said it better OLL :-) n/t

[BikeWriter]

94. You're hilarious! Harp on it all you like...

You don't know me, you don't know us. :)

[FizzFuzz]

119. It has always been such

Thanks for putting this so succinctly, OLL. I couldn't think of thewords, but I was thinking the same thing.

Women have always been scapegoated for the deeds of men. Anger is easy to unload on women. It is so safe to yell "F You Bitch".

[mark414]

108. i would like to call bullshit

nowhere did bikewriter state that he has forgiven macnamara; in fact if i recall correctly i have seen him post before that he will never forgive macnamara

and you are also completely over the line in your ad hominem attack; you're basically accusing him of disliking jane fonda because she's rich and famous and good looking

that was wrong of you to do, and i'm sure your energy would be much better spent attacking someone like macnamara instead of someone who fought in that hellish war

[BikeWriter]

115. Thank you, Mark. This does not bode well for our Iraq troops...

I thought for certain some things had changed in forty years. I've realized nothing has changed. We VietNam troops are still psychotic baby killers who started the freaking war! :(

[ohiosmith]

120. Where are you getting this shit? Who here has said the Nam troops

started the war or are baby killers.

[BikeWriter]

124. I have heard that crap for forty years and I see the hostility...

in some here.

[ohiosmith]

125. Please cite a single example from the more than 120 post here where

you were called a baby killer or accused of starting the war in Viet Nam. As regards hearing it for more than 40 years, I have yet to talk to a Nam era vet that can give more than second or third hand anecdotal evidence of being labeled "baby killer".

[BikeWriter]

126. A poll of mine here on that same topic was deleted...

It would probably be against the rules to discuss the results of that poll.

[ohiosmith]

127. So what? My post has nothing to do with your poll. Please give an

example.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

41. That's the saddest thing I've ever seen on DU

Your post is another example of broken men unable to let go of something that has become meaningless but which still controls them.

I do feel very, very sorry for those poor, lost souls.

[BikeWriter]

52. ROFLMFAO@OldLeftieLawyer! I've been busted and...

I've been broken, but I've never given up yet! Your "poor, lost souls" diagnosis is way off target!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

56. I'm sure you believe that

and it's hardly a "diagnosis". But, reading your repetitive and endlessly angry posts leads me to believe that you're experiencing what I call the "Nick Lowe" syndrome - what was once your groove is now your rut and will, one day, be your grave.

It's impossible for people to see what's troubling them. All they can do is to act out. And that gives others a clearer look at them than they might ever imagine.

Oh, to see ourselves as others see us.

I'm glad I give some brief and enjoyable meaning to your life here.

I wish you peace.

[BikeWriter]

63. The invitation stands. You can meet...

those "poor lost souls" you expound upon if you wish, or continue to make long distance diagnosis of our mental frailties. ;)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

72. Look up "diagnosis"

You're using the word incorrectly.

When did you decide I would want to "meet" - an amusing concept, given the nature of cyberspace - with anyone?

I think it's interesting that the simple fact of my having opinions that differ from yours cause you to do such backflips. It's another example of how people such as I really do own people like you, define people like you, and all in the most tragic and negative way.

When someone can't let go of something and needs to be constantly replenished, of course I feel sorry for them. They're missing out on so much of the good things in life.

You'll have to respond to this, of course, because that's what really masculine guys do. Right? That's a perfect example of how people such as I own and control people such as you.

I do wish you peace, and, taking a page from the RC Mass's playbook, I give you this: Ite. Missa est.

[BikeWriter]

79. You "own and control" me? Ha ha ha ha ha!

You are too, too funny! :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

87. Look what I can do -

I can make you respond, just by posting whatever I want.

You're downright Pavlovian.

Yes, I own and control you here.

[BikeWriter]

96. Ha ha ha ha ha!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

103. See?

You're so owned and helpless. Jane Fonda owns you as surely as I do. That's because you've given yourself over to us.

Now, you're in the spot we like to call "playing with our food."

You're stuck and you can't let go. I wish you could.

[mark414]

109. are you always this self righteous?

[BikeWriter]

116. As far as I've seen, yes.

I've been tempted to go to freeperville for some effin' support! :(

[Seabiscuit]

132. "Tempted"? Well, that could explain some of the incredulity you've

stirred up in this thread.

Perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty. Perhaps your sentence contained a typo: did it omit the word "back" between the words "go" and "to"?

[Mondon]

42. heh

"Imagine if we all defined ourselves by things that happened thirty or forty years ago."

I thought we'd stopped with the Kerry bashing already.

[meppie-meppie not]

50. This all reminds me of the "swift boat liars" crap. Not all vets are

honest or honorable but they really do need to get over it. Counseling would be in order to help them with their misplaced projection of what I suspect is self loathing.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

53. I agree

When I read that a sixty-something-year-old man is wearing a Vietnam-type t-shirt and baseball cap, I ask myself what's missing and what is he trying to replace?

There's always a deepseated pathology there that inevitably has nothing to do with Vietnam but everything to do with the individual's perception of himself. There is always a sad story, and, yes, counselling - outside of the dreadfully destructive "self-help" groups of veterans from long ago - would make their lives easier, I believe.

[BikeWriter]

55. Self loathing? Are you suggesting that Vets...

like me, who detest Jane Fonda do so because of some sort of guilt?

[meppie-meppie not]

60. Jane Fonda is just the vehicle, looking at all of your posts

collectively is what spells things out. BTW, there was no mention of guilt, interesting.

[BikeWriter]

65. Please, inform me what it spells out. ;-)

[meppie-meppie not]

73. if I thought for one minute that it would help you I would but I'm not

into the pointless and head banging is not a sport to me. Peace

[BikeWriter]

81. Wonderful. :-)

[Ron Green]

123. About those names on the wall....

please see my post below.

[Misunderestimator]

18. Exactly... a naivete that she has apologized for many, many times.

[BikeWriter]

37. LOL! Her first apology was in 1988...

And that was only because we were boycotting her movies.

[Misunderestimator]

39. You're laughing at her apologies that began almost 20 years ago?

If indeed that was her "first" apology.

Incredible to me that one mistake that was not meant maliciously, and a whole lot of truth and compassion from her has branded her as a traitor. I simply don't get it.

I'll save my anger for those who purposefully cause harm and who never learn from mistakes. There are plenty of them on all sides.

[BikeWriter]

43. She lied about our POWs. That is inexcusable...

in my book. Hundreds of them died from the torture, starvation, and lack of medical care she lied to the world about! Then she called them liars when they were released. No way can I forgive that.

[meppie-meppie not]

54. what's happening TODAY at Gittom is inexcusable not something

30 years ago by a stupid young woman in the heat of an illegal war!

[BikeWriter]

75. Are you refering to Gitmo? Have I excused it?

If I'm alive thirty years from now I'll remember that, too.

[meppie-meppie not]

83. why wait 30 years? Channel all your hostilities and work to

change things in the here and now!

[BikeWriter]

90. LOL! I do that, too...

If you'll notice I have made several thousand posts here. I also have my own Democrat and veteran's forums I host.

[youspeakmylanguage]

80. Do you have links to actual quotes?

I hear accusations like this, but I would like to see factual records of what she said and did.

[meppie-meppie not]

84. excellent question! I would like to see those too. n/t

[BikeWriter]

88. You must have missed our last Jane thread. Yes, I have links...

to her quotes.


During a 1972 trip to North Vietnam, Jane Fonda propagandized on behalf of the North Vietnamese government, declared that American POWs were being treated humanely and condemned U.S. soldiers as "war criminals" and later denounced them as liars for claiming they had been tortured: True.
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp


"These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest,"

"Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."
http://www.rightnation.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t4020.html

[youspeakmylanguage]

97. Where are the transcripts of the broadcasts and the press conference?

Yes, I missed your last thread.

The Snopes author is obviously biased and cites biased sources ("Dubious Honor for Hanoi Jane"? C'mon). I'm not even going to bother clicking on a link to a website named "rightnation.us".

It does appear that she made these statements, and they do appear to be odious and possibly treasonous. I would still like to read these quotes in context of her speeches as a whole from a reputable source.

[BikeWriter]

101. They sourced it: The Boston Globe. Here's a Vet's site...

with transcripts and pictures. Here's an interesting point:

'The Wall Street Journal (August 3, 1995) published an interview with Bui Tin who served on the General Staff of the North Vietnam Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. During the interview Mr. Tin was asked if the American antiwar movement was important to Hanoi's victory. Mr. Tin responded "It was essential to our strategy" referring to the war being fought on two fronts, the Vietnam battlefield and back home in America through the antiwar movement on college campuses and in the city streets. He further stated the North Vietnamese leadership listened to the American evening news broadcasts "to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement."'

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

[MollyStark]

67. LOL

I am sure the 30 of you who boycott her movies hardly took a bit out of the box office receipts.

[jbane]

13. It's been a while...dude!

We have a lot of people around here that can't forget what happened in 65, 1865 that is. Don't let yourself become a bitter old a-hole that nobody wants to listen to anymore.

[BikeWriter]

22. I am a bitter old asshole, and I don't forgive...

those like her who attacked my Brothers and Sisters in arms. I'm against the Iraq war, but I'll be damned if you'll see me over there singing Kum ba ya with the resistance and playing with car bombs.

[MollyStark]

71. "singing Kum ba ya"

Yup, just as I thought. No, I wouldn't expect you to be singing Kum ba ya.

[BikeWriter]

77. Cool! :-)

[Cooley Hurd]

15. on edit:

I see your reply above...:thumbsup:

Would you stand in line for 90 minutes just to hawk in her face?:shrug:

It's one thing to hold a grudge, it's another thing to lob body fluids.

[BikeWriter]

25. I wouldn't spit in her face..

but I would have voted guilty had she been tried for treason.

[Mondon]

40. Thanks for your service

[BikeWriter]

45. You're very welcome. I deeply regret...

I can't be of more help to the troops of today!

[Mondon]

27. She has not apologized for the Hanoi visit

to my knowledge. She has apologized for the picture on the AA gun. She has not apologized, to my knowledge, for her trip to Hanoi, her radio broadcasts, her spreading of the North's propaganda.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

107. Yes she has

welcome to DU, I think....

[BikeWriter]

117. Jane first apologised in 1988. Whoop de effin' doo!

[CBGLuthier]

3. Don;t they charge people who spit on cops

With bio-terror or some ridiculous thing like that. Why is this poor dumb bastard getting off so lightly?

[mitchtv]

10. He should be made to have AIDS and Hep tests

and anything else. In Calif , I believe, it would be battery. I am so sad she apologized.

[youspeakmylanguage]

47. She declined to press charges...

...so they only arrested him for causing a scene.

[CBGLuthier]

64. I guess she is capable of forgiveness

Too bad the guy wasn't

[youspeakmylanguage]

74. I think she has just resigned herself to dealing with stuff like this...

...for the rest of her life.

I have never heard the full story on what she actually did or didn't do. I've only heard different versions that range from her simply singing a song and inadvertently sitting on the gun (her version in the book, heard on NPR) to her actively engaging in various PR stunts for the Vietcong.

Does anyone have a link to an IMPARTIAL account of what she actually did?

[sui generis]

112. I completely agree - intentionally bringing another person

into contact with a body fluid should be a capital crime.

None of the human diseases that are communicable via saliva result in pleasant end of life experiences.

[Misunderestimator]

5. What a bastard.

Wonder how many women's faces he has spat at in his lifetime. Ass.

[Kurovski]

6. "A man who said he was a Vietnam veteran"

Why couldn't the press check out this claim?

[NYC]

23. Interesting point.

Was he or wasn't he?

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. I'll bet the guy was never in the military

Another horrible overweight bearded dick from the "heartland."

[AlCzervik]

9. i wonder what his screen name is at freerepublic

mmmm.............chewing tobacco

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

16. Did he at least buy the book?

:shrug:

I am no fan of Ms. Fonda in any of her incarnations, but she should get her own shot back at this guy.

[7th_Sephiroth]

19. Ah, Bubba Joe Bob

he isint quite right in the head, allways sittin on his proch with that scatter gun, eyeing people who walked by (Pssssst: his parents were siblings)

[Politicub]

24. Looks like a swift boat freak

he's a fine specimen for the right's mentality. If you get angry, just spit on someone.

I wish Jane would have kneed him in the nutsack.

[Democrats_win]

28. Tobacco’s a drug right? I blame the drugs.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

32. If chewing tobacco were legal,

our prisons wouldn't be overcrowded, and .............

What?

Oh.

Never mind.

[youspeakmylanguage]

82. If he had shot her...

...he could have blamed Twinkies. Sadly, that defense has worked before.

[donheld]

33. Mr Smith needs serious help

:crazy:

[mitchtv]

105. maybe mr Smith is running for Congress

no all he has to do is attack some gay person and he's in.

[tjdee]

38. Real tough guy, spitting in a woman's face.

Men like this are punkasses. :grr:

He needs to grow the fuck up and get a life. How full of hate is he to plan this, stand in a line for an hour and a half, and do this--for something that happened over thirty years ago!

[xmas74]

57. Right now I am embarrassed to live in Missouri.

This is probably the same freeper asshole who lets his kids off at Iraq protest rallies to start counter protests. He probably drives around w/ his "W" sticker on his car shouting at the women at family planning clinics, convinced that they are there to "kill theys babies".
Damn I am so sick of living in this state!

[terrya]

58. Mr. Smith needs to fucking get over it.

The Vietnam War was over 30 years ago. Jane Fonda has apologized over her comments during the war. What the fuck do these people want her to do?

[Deja Q]

62. In one word:

Die. Horribly.

Now that's two words, but they won't care. Or know. Revenge blinds people. And peak oil will leave us all dead so they should Grow TFU and live while we still can. We are beyond recriminations.

[MollyStark]

68. I'll be he never saw a single battle

Maybe he didn't serve at all.

[Judi Lynn]

69. A.P. story....

Missouri Man Spits on Jane Fonda
Man Spits Tobacco Juice Into Jane Fonda's Face After Waiting in Line to Have Her Sign Her New Book

TIM CURRAN Associated Press Writer
The Associated Press

KANSAS CITY, Mo. Apr 20, 2005 — A man spit tobacco juice into the face of actress Jane Fonda after waiting in line to have her sign her new book, police said.

The man ran off but was quickly caught by police Tuesday night and charged with disorderly conduct.
(snip)

Jennings said the actress never got up from her seat and continued autographing books after the tobacco juice was wiped off.

"The important thing is that she was so calm and so gracious about it," Jennings said of Fonda. "She was wonderful."

Jennings said that the man had a book to which the name "Jody" had been affixed as he approached to have it autographed. She said that when Fonda got the book, she looked up and said, "You're not Jody."

"At that moment, he turned his head quickly and spit a trail of tobacco juice," Jennings said. "He immediately jumped off the stage and started running down the aisle."
(snip)

She didn't press charges. Earlier she had a standing ovation after her speech.

Rude, fat, sloppy man spits in the face of a woman 13 years his senior and runs away. She didn't press charges. Oh, yeah. She should be assassinated, according to some people who want you to see them as heroes saving the world from small poor people.

My husband was in Viet Nam and he moved on as soon as he got back, like other well-balanced people did.

[uppityperson]

86. Maybe he WAS "Jody" and was really tired of the name funning

sort of like that stupid song "boy named sue" letting his name be an excuse all his life. Jody Smith?

[RedCloud]

85. Jane Fonda = Clinton's penis.

This is just an excuse for the right wingers to bring out their hatred over rampant stupidity.

Get it straight.

The majority of Americans opposed that war. I remember Republican's switching fences on that issue as soon as Tricky Dick came on board.

Jane Fonda is an American. It's her right to know the truth as she sees fit. To use the "POW/MIA we lost the war because of her" is a bunch of crap. Many guys got aroused thinking about Barbarella, er, Jane Fonda. So she went to North Viet Nam to see for herself. That is what our freaking free press should have done.

Now the right wing crazies will tell you that it was all hush hush, make it look good for her. Well then keep on going there, I say. If they are going to pretend that they are living in paradise and put on a great show each and every time one of our people visits them, then by all means keep on visiting.

It is not Jane Fonda's fault that:

Viet-Nam had the largest amount of foreign banks at the time of the US invasion.

Or had a suspected huge oil supply (Recognize that theme lately?) in the Mekong delta.

Ho Chi Minh himself came to the USA as did Fidel Castro seeking US aid FIRST. Did you all catch that? First. Both nations sought our help, but our leaders pissed on the ideals of economic democracy and sent them away. They did not choose to die. They went to another source. So blame Eisenhower who warned of the growing military industrial complex in his memoirs while sitting on his butt in the White House and doing nothing to prevent it. I think only Ike could have put a stop to the raping of our national soul by that complex.

If you were a soldier back then, show it. Stop acting like a pretentious cry baby. So your sex idol went to visit the other side and all you got was wimpy old Bob Hope, grow up!

We lost that war. Lost it. Lost it. Lost it. My daughter has a high school "teacher" who swears we didn't lose the Viet Nam War. I wrote her a simple message. It said "Please direct yourself to the world map where North and South Viet Nam should be. Then look for Saigon. Can't find it? Hey check out Ho Chi Minh City and only one Viet-Nam. Sort of looks like the USA lost that war. Kindly report just the facts in your class from now on."

The American people hated the on the scene stories about death, unarmed civilians being massacred, napalmed to death. Our troops getting killed. No end in sight. Now we get sugar coated shit: "Oh, we lit up Baghdad like a Christmas Tree. Oh, those glorious bombings remind me of the Fourth of July... That Iraqi potential terrorist one of our incendiary bombs hit and is now on fire reminds us that there is a fire sale over on Main Street. Our bombs are not killing any innocent civilians. They have been trained by experts, who were high school losers, to avoid killing innocent people. That Iraqi family deserved to get bombed to death. What do they mean following their stupid tradition of shooting rifles in the sky for their son's birthday party? Why those bullets could have hit an airplane if it had been several thousand feet lower and stopped in mid air and did not have such plating on it... "

Hidden from Viet Nam were stories of our gung ho officers getting fragged. (Our own guys tossing grenades at them, Peace symbol soldiers not being shot at...)

Yep, they try to blame the loss on someone. Just remember when Cambodia was killing its own people. No self righteous USA, GB, Germany, Israel, USSR, Maoist China did anything to stop it. Only Viet-Nam came to their rescue. They should get the Nobel Peace Prize for it too!

Apologize again, Jane for apologizing. Would "Family Values First" Bush ever apologize for Prescott Bush helping the Nazis kill entire families at Auschwitz? Isn't that one even more past due? And isn't killing worse than merely talking?

[DrZeeLit]

100. Kisses to you! We must have been separated at birth or at least...

...cosmically joined through our learning experiences.

Ah... your post.... thanks so much!

You echo my sentiments, historical knowledge, and ethics...yesterday and today.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

104. If you ever decide...........

..........to become a religion, sign me up.

That was an absolutely brilliant and informed post. Thank you.

:toast:

[bloom]

110. It's so much easier to hate Jane

than for a soldier to hate himself.

And they even have groups to reinforce themselves so they can feel good about it.



Who will the soldiers of the Iraq War hate? Are there any "liberals" to put a face on it?

[sui generis]

113. redcloud I think you and my SO were separated at birth

I think I heard this nearly verbatim from him at breakfast day before yesterday. W-a-i-t a minute!

Mr. Sui is that you? :evilgrin:

BTW - thank you for saying what needs to be said.

[BikeWriter]

118. Pretentious cry baby? Do you know anything about vets...

or do you just claim to?

[Ron Green]

121. Dude. If you think the names on that wall are more important than all the

Vietnamese dead, there's a major life lesson you're not getting. They died, many of them, defending their country. The names on the wall died for what we now know was a lie. Is this the problem, that the VC died for a good cause and ours did not?

Seriously, at our age (I was there, too, ETS 1 May '69) our job is to get the bigger picture, which means to forgive Jane and the VC and McNamara too. And ourselves. This, IMHO, is the main task of life on earth, to find forgiveness and find your true self.

[BikeWriter]

122. Thank you for your service, Ron. Welcome home...

You have your right to your opinion, and I respect it. Personally, I will forgive jane fonda, the vc, and McNamara a billion years after hell freezes over. I resent being told by some here I hate her because of impotency problems. I resent seeing our vets called pretentious cry babys.
My reason for hating jane is simple. She led cheers for people who were killing us at the rate of several hundred a week. That is my opinion, my true self, and my reality, and it will not change.
Thanking you again for your service,
BW

[skygazer]

133. How does this irrational hatred make your life any better?

How does it do anything positive at all, for you or for the world in which you live? How does holding a grudge for something a person did over 30 years ago that was ONE MOMENT in ten years of American involvement in a country that did not want us there (except for the small minority who we'd put into power and who wanted to stay there) make any sense in your life? What exactly does it accomplish?

No one in this thread has accused vets of starting the war or being baby killers or any of the other hysterical accusations you've made. BikeWriter, I know you're going to do what YOU want to do but for your own sake, you need to let this go. Jane Fonda didn't kill your brothers in arms. The people who protested the war did not kill your brothers in arms. If anything, they helped end the damn war and get you the hell out of it. Just what does all this venom accomplish? How does it fulfill you?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

89. i hope he gets oral cancer

[BikeWriter]

114. Yeah, right! Have you ever seen oral cancer?

:(

[GoddessOfGuinness]

91. I'm curious what Jane Fonda's reaction was...

other than the initial disgust or fear or whatever the knee-jerk impulse must have been.

Please realize I'm not defending Smith. What he did was appalling.

As many have pointed out, however, Ms. Fonda has done much apologizing over the years, asking vets for their forgiveness. Many of them have forgiven her...some even before she asked.

In this case, I think it's up to Jane to forgive without Smith requesting it.

[samilib]

95. This is what I find strange.

Some people actually say that we hate the troops. They do not utter a word whenever somebody from their side does the spitting though.

[Judi Lynn]

111. They probably feel it's righteous spittle!At whom would Jesus spit?n/t

At whom would Jesus spit?

[MollyStark]

134. Oh please...not that old lie again

hippies didn't spit on vets when they came home. That is such bullshit.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

129. freeper logic - pies bad, spitting civilzed and ok

welcome to bizarro earth

[Joe Chi Minh]

136. It's enough for me to know

the kind of politics of the drum beating chickenhawks who have always hated her, and caused the war in the first place.

I know whose side the late marine general, Smedley Butler, would have been been on (though he surely is so, in Heaven now, in any case), and it wouldn't be the side of Jane's enemies.

Moral courage trumped physical courage, as far as he was concerned, and he stopped a fascist assassination of FDR, and a coup by British and American bankers; and maybe his New Deal for the American people wouldn't have survived without him.