John Kerry is a sneaky bastard

[ChadCoffman]

I'm beginning to think John Kerry voted for the PATRIOT Act and the Iraq war because he knew he'd be running for president. He knew that Karl Rove would determine the issues in the next election. He knew that Karl Rove would inject fear into the public at will. He knew that Karl Rove would paint the Democrat opposition as having a weak foreign policy, and being soft on terrorism. He knew that Karl Rove would make the public feel safe under Bush control. And--most of all--he knows that Karl Rove is a twisted, evil genius.

John Kerry is a sneaky bastard. He is just as crafty as Karl Rove. That is why he must be defeated by someone less crafty and more centrist, otherwise Bush is sure to lose.

That is why we must vote for Howard Dean in the Democratic primaries, otherwise Karl Rove won't be allowed to control the battlefield.

[lcordero]

1. Actually I view all of the Presidential Candidates that voted

for the Patriot Act as dictator wannabes

[molly]

2. Please grow up!

[Wonk]

3. Um, so you are pro-Bush? Or maybe pro-Kerry? It's really hard to tell.

"John Kerry is a sneaky bastard. He is just as crafty as Karl Rove. That is why he must be defeated by someone less crafty and more centrist, otherwise Bush is sure to lose. :shrug:

That is why we must vote for Howard Dean in the Democratic primaries, otherwise Karl Rove won't be allowed to control the battlefield." :shrug:

Feel free to clarify, if you can.

http://www.google.com/search?q=skull+bones+bush+kerry

[molly]

5. I am so friggin sick of hearing about s & b

it belittles your reasoning power.

[Wonk]

10. The fact that you didn't pick up on the two other points I made

speaks volumes for your reading comprehension skills. You took the original post as an attack on Kerry and responded by simply saying "grow up". You also just resorted to making a personal attack on my reasoning power instead of addressing any of the points addressed. Your hero worship is clear, your critical thinking skills aren't.

[molly]

13. Both are intact - take my word

wanna make a bet?

[GeronimoSkull]

14. I haven't heard much about Skull & Bones lately...

Maybe someone should start a thread?

[molly]

15. You are tooooo funny!

[ChadCoffman]

6. heh

More proof that he is a crafty bastard. Anyone who joins a fraternity with a spooky name is not to be trusted.

We must vote for Dean, otherwise we stand a chance.

[joycep]

20. I am very confused--

I thought you were being sarcastic in your first post and were really for Kerry. Is that what you meant?

[valniel]

61. Great

"With friends like these, who needs enemies,” or with Dean supporters like that, Kerry will be just fine!

[valniel]

60. Freudian Slips!

I think "We must vote for Dean, otherwise we stand a chance" means that if "we don't vote for Dean, we stand a chance."
That sounds like a Bush supporter!

[ronnykmarshall]

72. The more I heard Dean speak ....

The more I like him.

The more I hear his supporters tell what I "must" do, the more I :puke: .

I so sick of hearing how Dean is the second coming and anyone that supports Kerry or another candidate should be ashamed.

Sorry but I'm still uncomitted at this time. I'm leaning towards Dean, but the childish shit from his supporters keep me on the fence.

[Rick Myers]

4. Can you explain the meaning of this post?

.

[DagmarK]

7. This is truly the all-time most whacked out posts ever against a candidate

Makes me wanna vote for Kerry just to prove you wrong.

But, alas, I will vote Dean.

And it is a shame that *you* are on Dean's side. We have enough enemies.

[molly]

8. In defense of Dean - I think a lot of the Deannie-babies

are actually anti-Dean and pug plants. They in themselves are enough to turn anyone in their right mind OFF.

[AnnabelLee]

16. Molly

please don't refer to Dean supporters as Deanie-babies. IMO, it is demeaning.

[molly]

18. Sorry - but SO MANY of them are newly arrived

[Nazgul35]

39. this again...

you tried floating this chestnut a few weeks ago and many Dean supporters came forward who have more posts then yourself...many also had frequented the site but never felt the need to post before...

[dsc]

44. You are disembling

and that is the kindest word I can use. As you well know from your insulting thread on this many, many Dean supporters have more posts than you do (Eloriel and I to name two) and have quite likely been here longer. I don't recall if you ever told us when you joined but I have been here since either Sept 12 or 13 of 2001. That is about a year and three quarters for a webiste that is around two and one half years old. And BTW that isn't the excuse I recall being used to justify this name in the past. I seem to recall it was the supposed age of Dean supporters that was the reason.

[DrGonzoLives]

71. *yawn* Isn't this argument getting a little old?

As others have said, many with more posts than you support Dean.

And I could bring up the fact that there are a lot of new posters jumping on here whose sole issue seems to be to take down Dean at all costs...where's your outrage about that?

[UnapologeticLiberal]

57. Not me

I hate this president with a passion...don't ever accuse me of being a GOP plug. I sometimes wrestle with whether I am hurting my party by supporting the candidate Karl Rove says he wants Bush to run against, but I think that they are underestimating Dean. And if you look at the latest matchup polls at www.pollingreport.com, Bush has a 50-42% lead against Kerry and a 53-38% against Dean, with Gephardt and Lieberman between them. So it's not a very big difference.

[w13rd0]

26. I wouldn't assume the poster is anything but pro Bush...

...in an earlier post, he posted about how the left must abandon the left or some such nonsense. Don't feed the trolls. This is the internet after all. As well as being a lifelong Democrat, I'm sure it's also a 16 yr old blonde lesbian cheerleader at times (not that I have anything against 16yr olds, lesbians or cheerleaders)...

[CowardDean]

9. hahahaha

Coward Dean, the Governor of Mean is a dream candidate for the Republicans. Many Republicans are donating $$$ to Dean and Nader and Bush!!

If Dean is the Dem Nominee, Bush wins 49 states.

[CatWoman]

12. hey Coward

tell us about those "Democrat Terrorists" you like to fight.

[CMT]

21. first BushandDeansuck and now CowardDean

hmm, interesting how we are suddenly getting such anti-Dean postings here too. Not only postings but user names. We know these people have an agenda for sure.

[DeanandBushSuck]

50. CowardDean

He is most likely someone that belongs to my site. Many people are starting to figure out Dean and they feel like he is a snake oil salesman.

DJA

[Old and In the Way]

38. hahahaha back atcha....

Only a flaming moran would come in here and sign in with a silly moniker like yours. Do tell us why Dean is a problem...can't wait to hear.

But first, help us understand why we should re-elect Bush for another term. I want to understand why an idiot would recommend voting against his best interests...especially after you've had 2.5 years to figure it out.

I'm waiting coward.

[MercutioATC]

11. As a Dean supporter, I have to say...

what total B.S.

Look, I have my issues with Kerry and I'm choosing to support Dean, but Kerry is NOT a "sneaky bastard". I happen to agree with some of his ideas and I wouldnt hesitate to vote for him if he becomes the nominee.

WHY do so many people feel that the only way to support a candidate is to attack others? If you like Dean, that's GREAT. Make a case for him. Explain why you feel he's the best choice.

Attacking Kerry (or anybody else) just makes the attacker look like an ass.

[curse10]

46. Thank you Mercutio

sometimes I wonder where the rational people are! :-)

[MercutioATC]

47. Hey, I'm all for supporting your candidate, but...

...these B.S. attacks are just that. I'm not 100% with Dean on every issue, but I feel he represents best where I want this nation to go.

These name-calling sessions lend nothing to the debate. Tell me why you like your candidate, maybe you'll make an impression. If you simply tell me that my (or somebody else's) candidate is a "sneaky bastard", you've lost any respect I might have had for your arguement.

[curse10]

48. Exactly

I'm no Dean supporter, but if he manages to get win the primaries he'll have my vote. I don't understand all this "cutting off our noses to despite our faces" attitude amongst some people. It's freakin' driving me crazy!

I don't understand all this hatred for other candidates.

[MercutioATC]

49. Kudos to you, Curse...

I actually like the fact that the primaries are the candidates' chance to distinguish themselves from one another and I like posts that highlight the differences.

What I don't appreciate are posts that 1) make unsubstantiated claims (Graham (or Dean, or Kerry, Or Kucinich, etc....) WILL WIN!) or 2) seek to gain support for one candidate by attacking another (the weakest form of persuation, in my opinion).

By all means, everybody should support their candidate. Why can't we, however, refrain from the blind attacks on other Dems?

[CMT]

17. this is counter productive

To call another democrat "a sneaky bastard" won't win any new converts to Howard Dean. You may disagree with Kerry but it is best to do it in a civil manner. It gives us Dean supporters a bad name when this happens.

[AnAmerican]

19. And yet another attack post from "certain" Dean supporters

I am not even in Kerry's camp, but demeaning another candidate just to prove a point is soooooo tiresome. You like Dean...cool. I get that. Try posting positives about Dean as opposed to negatives about the others. You might reach more people.

AnAmerican

On edit...I realize most Dean fans are not like this poster. Most honestly debate issues and don't malign other candidates just to see their posts on the screen.

[CMT]

22. have you also noticed the Dean people who are opposing him?

for his tactics and while your on a crusade against negative posts (which is fine) about candidates why don't you speak out against negative posts against Dean. More than Dean supporters do this type of thing you know.

[AnAmerican]

24. I edited my original post after....

realizing it sounded a bit harsh.

AnAmerican

[CMT]

29. thank you

This is just such a divisive thread, and I think that was the posters intention.

[w13rd0]

28. Please, look at the post history...

...if this poster is proDean, I'm a solid gold Nordic alien with washboard abs. Nor is this poster proKerry. He's proBush, ignore it until it gets booted. Instigators and disruptors have been quite busy trying to forment a fight, hoping to weaken the candidacy of both Dean and Kerry. Many of them aren't hoping to strengthen anyone else by it either.

[Orangepeel]

34. Um. This is a poor attempt at sarcasm -- it is NOT a pro-Dean post

It is a pro-Kerry post that states that we have to nominate Dean unless we want to win.

I realize that some Dean supporters go overboard in their enthusiasm, but this isn't one of those posts.

[Old and In the Way]

40. I'm pro-Kerry....

and I can read a pro-Bush moron when I see one (they're really not that deep).....this guy is a silly fool.

[ChadCoffman]

23. Clarification (for the confused)

By voting for the PATRIOT Act and the Iraq war, Kerry effectively neutralized Karl Rove's supremely fascist campaign strategy. What the Left sees as Kerry's greatest turn-off is in fact his greatest asset. Add to that his ultra-ambitious campaign kick-off in Vietnam (I bet he intentionally threw himself in front of Vietnamese bullets for those medals, just like he suckered John Lennon into giving him an inspiring photograph for his campaign) and you have an unbeatable wartime campaign against an AWOL incumbent. Very sneaky indeed.

We must vote for Dean, otherwise Karl Rove's strategy will not work... otherwise we stand a chance against Bush.

[molly]

32. You are a very confused person

did you see Graham on MTP?

Dean COULD NOT vote - period the end - he should not be using that as a campaign issue - it's a great big turn off - it's easy to say in retrospect - geewhiz I would never do that.

You should also - before demeaning Kerry - do some research on his Viet Nam experiences - he saved some lives.

You are making an ass out of yourself.

[DeanandBushSuck]

53. All for Dean Supporters attack Kerry

I like it when Dean supporters attack Kerry on his war record, don't get me wrong, I love JFK, he is a great man, but it does show how STUPID Dean supporters are. Kerry served in Vietnam, and opposed the war when he came back. He didn't run like the chicken Dean did and he says he has "survivers guilt". LOL Well, maybe if he fought with his brother instead of dodging him and going on a skiing trip he might have been there to save his brother. Kerry has two purple and lost a family of friends fighting that stupid war and saved the lives of more siblings then Dean has. What does Dean have to show for his dedication to his country during that time, nothing but a hangover from over night parties and a purple ass from falling down on his ski trip.
I think two purple hearts beats any two purple cheeks any day.

DJA

[MercutioATC]

58. Again, another asinine post...

Dean was medically disqualified for military service. He did NOT "dodge" service. He reported as ordered and the military rejected him.

How does this constitute avoiding military service?

[Nicholas_J]

75. Because Dean is again

MISLEADING young people who did not take part in the draft.

Dean did not GO to the draft board and be medically found UNFIT, for a condition they do not search for in the medical exam at the draft board....You can get a burger and fries faster at the Mc Donalds Drive through faster than a draft board physical.

If you were blind and forgot to bring your seeing eye dog and white cane, you stood a good chance of being inducted.

So stop trying to foist Deans own spin. He had to go PREPARED to try to get out of being drafted, with medical records from his own physician who had to claim his condition was SO severe that he could not engage in anything but the most sedentary of activities. Like skiing. If Dean could ski, he was easily qualified for non-combattant duty. And draft-worthy.

Dean is simply trying to place a spin on this that ANYONE who was ever drafted know he is lying about. Which is why most vets support Kerry, not Dean. They know Deans is clinging the old crapola.

[tpub]

33. with a name like "Chad"

I wouldn't trust anything he had to say

[Old and In the Way]

41. So, how's the pay at the RNC?

They'll be raising about $300MM in this campaign...hope you are getting paid a princely sum to help keep this unelected scumbag in the office he doesn't deserve..

[valniel]

70. Welcome

I think I see the light. Welcome to another Kerry supporter.

[CMT]

25. well Chad I think you accomplished your goal

I think you deliberately set about to do a flame thread which divides the democratic candidates. You just made the Kerry people upset at Dean people again and you made the Dean people get upset becuz we are the ones accused of personal attacks against other candidates even though it goes on all sides. Thanks a lot.

on edit: ok I re-read it all and all the comments--it appears that you are actually not pro-Dean and I think not really pro-Kerry--but really pro-Bush.

[ModerateMiddle]

63. the dean people and kerry people always fight

this guy didn't start that feud.

and irony is lost on many of the blunt force ideologues around here.

Pity.

[CMT]

65. well maybe if we tried to be more civil they wouldn't fight

is it that hard? Can't we disagree without starting flame wars? I can support Dean without having to vilify Kerry it isn't that hard. And yes I do see the irony of this posters comments. It appears he actually is probably pro-Kerry (but that is even hard to tell).

[tpub]

27. I am so confused

but I've already had a few drinks tonight, so maybe I'm not reading this correctly. But don't most of us here agree it would be a GOOD thing if "Bush is sure to lose"

[molly]

30. The deal is that we don't demean ANY DEM candidate

before the primary. They may just end up being our only winning option. Bush is sure to lose - you got that right!

[Wonk]

35. So that's why you throw the term "Deanie-babies" around? nt

[molly]

42. Wonk - BONK - I answered you earlier

[pasadenademocrat]

31. stop this thread

it is ridiculous

[Allah Akbar]

36. He may be a sneaky bastard!

But he's OUR sneaky bastard!

I hope

[gottaB]

37. Cheers to the Dean supporters

who have disavowed your villification of John Kerry.

But let's look at the substance of your allegations, because imo they're as erroneous as the insults.

Of course John Kerry is aware of his political opponents. Of course he is mindful of elections. Duh. Does that mean that winning elections is the only thing that matters to Kerry? Hardly.

Read the threads on Kerry's war vote. Kerry's support for war against Iraq was always tempered by his own views on the importance of multilateralism and the need to establish the immanence of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons programs. I have argued in those threads that Kerry's rhetoric was politically motivated, and that it disadvantaged those who protested the war. Other posters argued more directly that Kerry was fence-sitting, that his vote was a cynical compromise of core principles.

These are meaningful questions, but before you go drawing conclusions about Kerry's character or fitness for politics, look at the facts. John Kerry's foreign policy views are remarkably consistent. He never backed away from those, and continued to admonish the Bush administration even has he cast the vote to authorize war. John Kerry has vocally supported unpopular positions in the past. In as much as Kerry's support for the war represents a compromise, his reasoning should not be reduced to simple pandering for votes. From his perspective, he was gaining importing concessions from the Bush administration, reinforcing the prinicple that only the immanent threat of weapons of mass destruction could justify war, that the US should rely on UN weapons inspections insofar as they were effective, that the US would need the support of allies, that war must be a last resort.

Sneaky? Reasoned? Politically astute? Doublecrossed? Pragmatic? Whatever you decide, you have to recognize that Kerry was between a rock and a hard place, that all the Congressional Democrats were put in a difficult position by Bush's drive to war. There isn't one word that can capture the truth here. If your goal, as a Democrat, is to put the sane people back in control of the government, you should judge Kerry's "sneakiness" in realtion to how it enables us to realize that goal.

Kerry has provided a lot of ammunition for the Democrats to criticize Bush. Dean has already echoed some of those arguments, and will continue to do so. The points of difference are real, but don't let that blind you to the similarities. As Dems, as opponents of Bush, we have a shared purpose.

Peace out. (Dinner time)

[dsc]

43. To those presuming this is a Dean supporter

Did you even read this post? On what planet, aside from Bizarro, would a Dean supporter say "vote for Dean or Rove won't be controlling the issues"? Hello, Rove controlling the issues is a bad thing. No wonder so many Dean bashers can't figure out what Dean says.

For the record this poster is clearly a divisive fool. But to say he is a pro Dean fool is to have not read his post. So many of you are so quick to bash Dean and his supporters you don't even read posts. That is sad and pathetic. Just like the original post in this thread.

[MercutioATC]

45. You said it well, dsc....

This is just another disruptive post with no real merit (and I say the same for the baseless anti-Kerry or anti-Kucinich or anti-whomever posts.) MOST of the "Anti" people are just that..."anti" people. They don't stand for anything positive, they just attack individual candidates. ANY of the Dem candidates are better than another 4 years of this.

[DeanandBushSuck]

51. Humm, funny that. . .

I Thought Dean was opposed the war because he was running for President. I mean, if 5 leading contenders running for the Dem. Nomination, all supported the war, and 50% of the Democrats opposed the war, gee, what would you do to get 50% of the vote in a mass field of candidates? Funny how a man who is in favor of war in Liberia, Afghanistan, and Iraq in 1991 would oppose just this one, don't ya think? While the other ones supported all the others and this one at the time. Except, Kucinch, he stands as not a hypocrite either because he opposed them all.

DJA

[MercutioATC]

52. You DO understand the difference between Iraq and Liberia, etc, right?

Dean had always been clear about his belief in when our military should be sent overseas. He (and I) are opposed to this war in Iraq not because we're opposed to military action, but because we both feel that the conditions under which this country should wage war have not been met. Not supporting this war in Iraq is not an "anti-war" stance. You DO understand that, correct?

[DeanandBushSuck]

54. Yeah Right!

I do fully understand. Oppose the war when it gets you what you want, be for the war when it gets you what you want. Not to hard to understand. Or is it just by chance that Dean always comes out with an opinion on a war after a poll comes out?


DJA

[MercutioATC]

55. The war in Iraq was at roughly 70% approval when Dean commented..

Don't you read ANYTHING? You DO remember that (as of last month) this was a popular war, right? Gov. Dean has been against the war in Iraq well before its popularity declined.

Before you post again, PLEASE just hit www.deanforamerica.com or www.blogforamerica.com . If you don't trust Dean sites, just read mainstream media archives. To say that Dean's stance on support of the war in Iraq is wrong is opinion. To say he took that stance to gain popular support is moronic (I realize that "moron" is an official designation for an I.Q. between 50 and 69, but I'm generalizing here).

[UnapologeticLiberal]

56. I am not sure I would go that far

I watched Kerry today on CNN, and I was disappointed that he said "I stand by my vote" for the war. This would have been the perfect opportunity for him to come out and say "I was lied to, and I regret my vote." If he would do that I'd have a lot more respect for him, and I think it would help him on the campaign trail.

I like John Kerry, and I have said time and again that I would never base my support or lack thereof for a candidate on one vote, particularly to take an action that has already been taken and cannot be easily retracted. But his vote for the war bothers me more than anyone else's, because given his history, he could have been a powerful and credible voice against the war.

[valniel]

59. Are you sure you mean that??

Parsing your last sentence, I think you are saying "if we don't vote for Howard Dean" then "Karl Rove won't be allowed to control the battlefield."
This is very much along the lines of what many others have said, "Nominate Dean" and "Bush/Karl Rove will dominate the election"

[CWebster]

62. Too bad he was wrong.

The risk of whoring out principles for political brass rings.

[VoteClark]

64. This is not a very nice about Kerry

Kerry is a good man. While I really Clark, I think this supporter of Dean is doing more harm to Dean than he/she realizes.

J4Clark

[Duder]

66. I think it's a Kerry supporter and...

an anti-Dean slam but since it pisses on both camps, who knows?

[dArKeR]

67. 'We can take out Dean at anytime'. Did Kerry really say this?

any links? thanks

[curse10]

69. Kerry did not say that

supposedly one of his "staffers" said it.

[JHS]

68. And meanwhile , , ,

the RNC plots to take control of the Senate and House for good, Bush, Cheney, and Rove decide on which country to colonize next, and Ashcroft tramples on our rights while singing and holding prayer groups at the Department of Justice. John Kerry is a good progressive, he has done a lot for the country, he deserves better than your message. Let's get back to the issues. If you want to bash somebody, bash Republicans and Shrub!

[DrFunkenstein]

73. This Is Clearly A Leg Pull

If anything an indication of how emotionally invested we have become in our choices. Of course, the humor of a post like this is not the actual post, but the responses. Lighten up guys.

Personally, I think we should vote for Sharpton, just to confuse Karl Rove into over-reacting. That way we can write in Ross Perot and break this accursed duopoly.

[Nicholas_J]

74. Watch

ANd observe...

Kerry's statements about George Tenet are the beginning of another Iran-Contra attack on the Republicans.

Patriot is another act like the Iraq Act, it is NOT a one way act. The Legislative Branch made agreements to certain things. But the ececutve did as well. And the decided to disregard THEIR comitments.

When a president signes a pieve of legislation, HE agrees to live by the limits and powers set within the act.

The legislature aggreed to support the president in Iraq, if he did certaint things first. The PREDIENT needed the support. Gephart stated this in Iowa. Bush stated HE needed the U.N. to know that the entre U.S. was behind his going to the U.N. regarding Iraq. THis is what the Dems agreed to. When Bush saw that the U.N. would not be bullied by thr one superpower, he went it alone.

I doubt there is ONE person who has sat and read the ENTIRE Patriot Act. Bush has already violated a number of conditions set for him, the CIA, and the FBI.


IN court, when you build a case, you build it not on ONE piece of EVIDENCE, but many, especially if you are building a case based on circumstantial evidence.

Kerry is perfoming like a legal trooper. Nothing will be left to chance. No one will be able to say "I didnt know what those people at the bottom of the CIA" were thinking. They told me someting else". As Condoleeza Rice is trying to spread around right now.

Kerry Fought Nixon, and came up on top. Fought Reagan, and came up on top. AND is simply the only candidate with a PROVEN record of opposing Republican political abuses and beating them. In Vermont, Dean did not oppose conservatives. He most frequently opposed Demorats and Progressives, and with the help of REPUBLICANS, defeated progressive legislation, designed to prevent business and political abuses.

Far from opposing the kind of politics that Bush and Rove engage in , Dean does the same himself.Far from opposing their fiscal philosophy, Dean fits comfortably on the side of Neo-Cons whren it comes to the budget.
Deception, misrepresentation. And not towards Republicans, but towards Democrats. Just as he did in Vemront. Which is why we must oppose Howard Dean in the democratic primaries.