One point : Kerry's vote on IRW is a non-issue if he becomes the nominee

[DJcairo]

Dems will support the nominee in their eagerness to get rid of Bush no matter what. Some on the right would no doubt attack Dean on his anti-IRW stance if he became the nominee. I'd rather it not be an issue in the general election so that the country can concentrate on the Dems superoir knowledge of the economy and their strength in protecting SS and health care for all. We can win on that for sure.

[onehandle]

1. Boy are you asking for trouble...

;-)

You got this right: "Dems will support the nominee in their eagerness to get rid of Bush no matter what."

Mainstream Dems want Bush gone.

[virtualobserver]

2. They will attack Kerry for voting for it and then turning on Bush

There is no way to avoid an attack from the Republicans on any issue.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. Yep.

Any nominee is gonna get Roved. Fortunately, there is so much fodder againt Chimp that it will be completely ineffective.

[virtualobserver]

5. true......the wheels are certainly starting to come off the car.....

for Bush. I just wish we weren't in the car with him.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

11. Reminds me of Toonces.

[virtualobserver]

13. I've seen that expression on Bush's face before as well....

What is Toonces' last name?

[RogueTrooper]

3. But it is an issue in the primary

quite an effective issue too, if you get my meaning :evilgrin:

It is his vote against the first gulf war that will kill him in the general election.

[DJcairo]

6. I doubt it because he voted for IRW

so they can' tar him as a dove.

[poskonig]

7. I'm also wondering how to spin GW1 should Kerry win.

Spinning his vote for the 2nd Gulf War once he is out of the primary is easy. Spinning his vote for the 1st Gulf War is not.

The Repigs will eat us alive on this.

[RogueTrooper]

8. Indeed

that is what I fear also.

[DJcairo]

10. Too long ago to matter

[virtualobserver]

14. funny joke

I'll try to remember that one.

[AWD]

15. Listen....

...I'm not attacking you. But you really need to take off the rose-colored glasses here.

Gulf War 1 vote was too long ago? Tell that to the Whitewater investigators.

I know you want to paint Kerry as the end-all, be-all...and he is a great candidate. But he is not Superman, and they will certainly not lay off him on either Gulf War vote.

Please, for the benefit of your credibility, admit that John Kerry has flaws and stop ignoring and justifying the ones he has. All candidates do have flaws (even mine), and your spinning is really muddying the waters of reality.

[DJcairo]

17. Clearly-I live in a different reality than you.

It's a reality where Dems win elections and not lose them by landslides. Dems compete on issues that the incumbant thinks are his i.e. security and don't resort to a candidate who appeals only to their deep seated anger.
Dems have made those mistakes before but post-Clinton are wiser and smarter. Long gone are the days of Mondale and Dukakis.

[AWD]

19. Agreed

You really DO live in a dirrerent reality than I do. I'm sure there's A LOT of agreement there.

[sandnsea]

24. Gee, he was right

Approaching Iraq militarily has proven to be a total disaster. We took an ally and turned him into an enemy because we knew we had sold him chemical and biological weapons and had to get them out of there. We egged Saddam on with Kuwait just like we egged him on with Iran. We were so addicted to ME oil that we were willing to do anything to get it, instead of focusing on alternative fuels and conservation the way Carter wanted us to. I doubt this will ever happen, but it seems to me it's the truth.

I don't know what he proposed to do with Iraq at the time, but if it has any teensy bit of credibility, he can probably say he thought his solution was better and wouldn't have led to the quagmire we have today. At least I hope so.

[Nicholas_J]

9. Amont swing voters

Support for the Iraq war is up to 91 percent with swing voters in the Ipsos Cook Poll and 71 percent in the latest time polls.

Opposition to the war is going to be a loser for anyone who runs against Bush. Dean supporters on DU keep claiming that thev Anti-War stance will be a winner, but the suppoort nuimbers for the wat keep going up, [particularly among the swing voters and even more among minority swing voters.

[DJcairo]

12. Indeed...this is my point

a cold hard look at electoral politics is in order.

[virtualobserver]

16. I'm sure those polls won't change as Iraq descends into anarchy

and the endless lies are revealed.

[Nicholas_J]

20. Bush will have a U.N. sponsored coalition in Iraq

before the nominations. Thw U.N. will in all likelihood be in charge and establishing local governmental controls, humanitarian aid, placing portable generators and water purification units in all Iraqi hospitals and Bush will get Europe and the U.N to pay for 85 percetn of it before Suprt Tuesday.

Dems who did not support the war wll be left holding their peckers in their hands, and those who did will be better placed to win the nomination.


This who did not support the war will be crying into their beers, as the bulk of the electorate leaves them to their whining.

Those without activist convictions will abandon the anti-war candidates as most of them dont like backing a losing horse.


Since most of the Amierican electorate has the a memory capacity a bit less than that of the average turnip, the war will not only be a non issue, but supporting it will end up being a badge of integrity by November 2004.

[virtualobserver]

22. the europeans will leave Bush and Kerry............

twisting in the wind.

Unfortunately, this situation will never stop getting worse.
The europeans have no incentive to help Bush. Bush is offering them nothing, he is merely trying to pressure and shame them, which complements nicely his earlier attempts at bullying.

Your optimistic view is about as realistic as the Wolfowitz "they will greet us with flowers" scenario.

[molly]

23. DU in no way reflects the opinions of the general public

we are activists enjoying the internet debates. Most people are not.

[dsc]

21. I really want some citation for this

Unless we are in utter disagreement on what swing voters mean this is mathematically impossible. First, the electorate is divided into 40% Republican voters, 40% Democratic ones, and 20% swing voters. Currently nearly all Republicans support the war. Let's be silly and say that really only 75% of them do. That is 30% against the war. We also know that around 1/2 of Democrats do as well. That is 20%. Using your 91% figure (.91*20%) is 18.2% which would be 68% of the electorate supporing the war. Using your 71% figure that would be (.71*20%) is 14.2% which is 64.2% of the electorate supporting the war. The current figure is around 60% and rmmember I way, way underestimated Republican support.

[blm]

18. I hope it IS an issue.

Kerry and Clinton worked together on a plan for Iraq in 98. They had planned for winning the peace when Saddam was removed. He knows exactly how and where BushInc screwed up and I'd like to hear him corner Bush on his diplomatic, military and strategic failures.