All candidates should be above all protecting our Civil Liberties

[shance]

Its what makes a Democracy a Democracy.

Since 9/11 most of us have been HIGHLY concerned with the assault on our Civil Liberties as John Ashcroft began to take things over in the guise of "National Security". Its not an illusion that those in power who dont happen to agree with us could potentially label anyone a terrorist who didnt believe in their convoluted ideology. Look at the situations that have proven this time after time in the past three years. Teachers and writers have been fired, Dixie Chicks, Susan and Tim Sarandon, Jeanne Garfalo, the Baseball Hall of Shame**, people that have been silenced for simply speaking the truth.

So, with a Patriot Act out there alive and well, what is reality and what is fiction? And the worst thing about this is WHAT AN INCREDIBLE WASTE of energy and creativity is spent having to consider these things. But that is how intimidators and bullies control others.

Even in my own life and certainly not being a big profile person, I have been worried, and wondered about the possibility of being spied upon, phone lines being tapped and or threatened in some way has certainly been a concern of mine during these past 3 years. We are all simply trying to do what we believe to be right and defend what is essential in maintaining those rights we must have to ensure any semblance of fairness in this country. Is that paranoid? Take a look at what has been going on in our nation, and I think you'll agree that NOT being somewhat paranoid is more dangerous than considering the reality going on around us, not to mention observing what many of the people in our government are doing.

I think the reality is we have to protect our Civil Liberties as if they are the Hope diamond. Because they are in fact when it comes to protecting our freedoms and when it comes to the true definition of liberty. The truth will be gone when Civil Liberties are allowed to be taken away by using the excuse of Homeland Security and or "Terrorism".

I don't know exactly what Governor Dean said yesterday, but I do think if there is any question as to his stance on Civil Liberties, we need to know and he needs to address it. That is why it is our responsibility to let our candidates and leaders know how important this issue is to PROTECT what is essential. Civil Liberties are ESSENTIAL - ESPECIALLY in a time of war and in a time where fear and confusion seem to be the overriding emotions dictating most Americans.

[blm]

1. Thom Hartmann signalled concerns about Dean

a few years ago. Usually people here at DU listen to Hartmann.

Our Government Needs Good Citizens
by Thom Hartmann
>>>>
In July of 1997, Vermont governor Howard Dean announced that he wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals."

It’s probably a testimonial to the good job public education has done in Vermont that there wasn’t a public uprising against him (although the Montpelier newspaper’s letters-to-the-editor section was filled with invective for several weeks). Certainly this is a statement that would not have been acceptable to the people who made Vermont the second independent Caucasian-run nation in North America (after Texas). The founding fathers of Vermont, which dropped its independent-nation status to become the USA’s 14th state in 1779, knew all too well the dangers of a government unconstrained by the "technicalities" of the law. They’d seen it when the British forced them to house soldiers, shot or hung them for speaking out against the King, and allowed them to engage in commerce or own property only if they gave a portion of their wealth to England. They realized that the government has most of the guns and all the power, and that it’s only "legal technicalities" which keep any government at bay. They fought and many of them died to put those "technicalities" into place. When politicians like Dean call for "swift and certain conviction of the guilty" (which actually means "swift and certain conviction of the accused, since a person is only guilty when they’ve been convicted…at least as of the date of this writing) in the courts of the state "regardless of technicalities," I imagine our founding fathers roll over in their graves.
>>>>>

[shance]

2. I like Hartmann, but due to all the attacks on Civil Libs

in the past two to three years, I don't find that to be really comparable to this situation. Too many erosions have been attempted with an apparent agenda. Its a essentially in my opinion a different deal.

And with that said, I like Kerry fine, but if he is fueling these flames, he better take a look in the mirror and remember that he and others contributed to the current problem by signing on to both the war and the Patriot Act.

[SGrande]

4. I started the original thread

And we were calm, and reflexive.

About 5 minutes into a calm discussion with several senior DU posters with Stars, like 15 Deanites started taking over, spewing insults and beratting our debate.

Then Thorbstein created 4, count em, 4 more threads because he had a tempter tantrum.

At the Bottom of the first post
"Dean assaults civil liberties", a Dean supporter answers my question
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=8369&mesg_id=8613&page=

I thank him, and its over.

All this hype is from the dean community, centered around Thorbstein.

I just wanted a debate for gods sake!

[shance]

6. I think most of us are highly protective of Dean

because we believe in his authenticity and we quite frankly just like him. For us, he is a refreshing change from politics as usual and think that he has what it takes to really create positive change.

With that said, we cant be totally blind or overly dogmatic. If there is an issue that needs to be addressed by a candidate, thats fair game, and so be it.

I will say that its, in my opinion*, very good and even healthy to see some passion and support flowing through the bloodstream of the Democrats these days. Now the challenge is learning to focus it in the right direction.

In the past, we've had alot of tragedy hit this party - candidates ruthlessly slandered unfairly by the press, presidents assasinated, civil rights leaders killed. This is going to sound like psycho babble, but I think there are alot of old wounds still lying around within the party. Thats why I get worried, when I get reactive with other Dems, and when other Dems go after one another. We all do it, but at the end of the day, we know where the main instigator of all the problems are and when we go after each other, it only drains our energy and emboldens the Republicans.

I can see that you like Kerry and I know exactly how you feel in wanting to support and defend your guy***. I think overall he seems like a great person and has been a good senator. He strikes me as very caring and intelligent and likeable. I donated to his campaign some months back when he got gutsy and mentioned regime change. I have decided to support Dean mainly because of his outreach to all Americans and I have seen him speak a few times now and he just resonates with me.

[SGrande]

7. See, thats a great post

thank you

and I more than understand your support for Dean and I think if he wins it all, He'll make one of the Best Presidents we've had.

[shance]

9. Thanks Grande***

That was very kind.

I think we've got some great candidates overall, not to mention some great people in this party.

[blm]

8. Why not look at Kerry's OWN words?

>>>>
Opponents say the Patriot Act represents a major assault upon civil liberties. But Kerry said Ashcroft’s biggest threats to civil liberties don’t stem from the Patriot Act itself, but other sources, such as his “misinterpretation” of a 1938 law now being used to classify some terrorism suspects as “enemy non-combatants.”

Kerry said he doesn’t support Ashcroft’s recent request for additional powers to combat terrorism.

“We need to fix the things that are wrong with the Patriot Act, addressing concerns about civil liberties and privacy,” he said.

http://www.dreamwater.com/blueelf/prezKERRY.html

[shance]

10. Fair Enough**

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement he made.


“We need to fix the things that are wrong with the Patriot Act, addressing concerns about civil liberties and privacy,” he said.

Amen to that...**

[jody]

3. Interesting subject. don't forget that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is

one of our Civil Liberties. For example, Massachusetts says in its state constitution A Declaration of the Rights of the Inhabitants of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
QUOTE
Article I. All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.
UNQUOTE

Keeping and bearing arms is the way citizens exercise that unalienable right.

[SGrande]

5. i agree!

thats an issue I agree with Dean on!

:)

[genius]

11. The trouble is that Dean acts ignorant of the purpose of the B of R.

His statement that he supported the Death Penalty because some guy who whose conviction was overturned was never retried shows an ignorance that implies he wants to execute innocent people. His flat out statement that executions of the inocent were acceptable were, to me, absolutely frightening. None of the attorneys running would have been so disrespectful of the Bill of Rights. Although I don't care for Graham, Lieberman and Edwards, they would never have been so disrespectful of the fact that in America a person is innocent until found guilty in a court of law. If that conviction is overturned, they go back to being innocent. Kerry and Kucinich and Gephardt are much more supportive of the Constitution and Bill of Rights than Dean. Kerry's only problem was voting for a document he didn't read. Kucinich has naturally been the civil rights leader among the candidates.

[shance]

12. Not buying baseless accusations Genius - have to do better...

Back em up with links and quotes. If anyone cares about what is right and fair, its Howard Dean.

No one here at DU should tolerate flamethrowing/bullsh** accusations about any candidate that are not based in facts to back it up.


<< His flat out statement that executions of the inocent were acceptable were, to me, absolutely frightening. None of the attorneys running would have been so disrespectful of the Bill of Rights. Although I don't care for Graham, Lieberman and Edwards, they would never have been so disrespectful of the fact that in America a person is innocent until found guilty in a court of law. >>

There's your quote - back it up or take a hike.

[genius]

19. Try his "Meet the Press" inteview where he shocked America.

Or are you going to try to say that was Kerry disguising himself as Dean? You guys advertised it. I guess you didn't expect anyone to pay attention to what Dean had to say.

[blm]

13. Nobody could have read the whole thing...

so theymade sure the sticky parts were sunsetted. It was always going to be reviewed if any abuses occurred.

[revcarol]

24. Some of the Patriot Act will NOT be sunsetted.

And not just the "sticky" parts.These parts must be REPEALED, and the others that are supposedly sunsetted are doing incalculable damage to our democracy!!

Congress is finding out they CANNOT REVIEW AND HAVE OVERSIGHT of most of the Patriot Act, because NO ONE IS KEEPING RECORDS, and when they do have records, THEY WON'T TURN THEM OVER TO CONGRESS!!

This is one of the main reasons I am supporting KUCINICH. He wants to repeal the unPATRIOTic ACT.

He is FOR civil liberties, not this mish-mosh of "We'll take a look at it and maybe we'll change something..."He can off the cuff, point out exactly which Bill of Rights section has been violated and WHAT THE DETRIMENTAL EFFECT HAS BEEN ON OUR DEMOCRACY.

[valniel]

14. After Sep. 11, Dean did contemplate some changes in Bill of Rights

Civil Liberties: Dean has not been scored by The American Civil Liberties Union. Dean, who is running on his civil rights record as governor, is well-known for signing Vermont's law legalizing gay civil unions.
The Vermont Civil Liberties Union was alarmed by then Gov. Howard Dean's call for a "re-evaluation" of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks. Dean said "I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street." Later Dean backed away when asked about them later. He pointed out that he was not advocating for such restrictions, merely predicting what he believed would be the salient issues in the debate. When asked what, if any, impingement he supported, Dean had no answer. "Right now (Sept 23, 2001) we have to let things cool off. Proposed changes in the Constitution ought to be served cold."

http://selectsmart.com/president/Dean.html

[killbotfactory]

15. "Right now (Sept 23, 2001) we have to let things cool off."

"Proposed changes in the Constitution ought to be served cold."

There you go. Dean does not want to destroy the bill of rights.

[valniel]

18. But which liberties is he talking about?

We can all agree that changes to the Constitution should not be done in the heat of passion, but which changes would he like to see when things cool down? I sure would like to know!

[shance]

16. There it is....

"Right now we have to let things cool off"

that says it all and those are very wise words, if only our US Congress would have listened........

[blm]

17. Then why "call" for a reevaluation of civil liberties

three days after the attack? Because he opened the back door to wiggle out? I can't believe that so many settle for that act.

[genius]

20. Dean is the least progressive on gay rights of all candidates

He was forced to sign the bill he signed and he will not sign a federal civil unions bill. It's sort of like George Wallace being forced to let integration take place in Alabama and then claiming to be for equal protection. I have a number of gay friends who think he is slime for taking credit where none is due.

[genius]

21. Thank you for posting this thread

I agree that we need to know where the candidates stand, rather than being surprised when it will hurt America the most.

[gottaB]

22. lawyers get a bad rap

but I find myself drawn to the lawyers, and esp. Moseley Braun, Edwards, and Kerry, because of their understanding of the Constitution. For instance, they're all on record as opposing a consitituional amendment to outlaw burning the flag. But this PATRIOT business really really bugs me, and it's a big reasons I lean towards Carol. I haven't written off the others, but I really want to see them address this in a way that affirms their commitment to upholding the Bill of Rights.

When the others, Kucinich and Sharpton, and (ambivalently?) Dean criticize PATRIOT, I like what they're saying, but I feel better hearing it from somebody like Carol who carries around a copy of the Constitution and is comfortable citing it and articulating a view of government that is based on a constitutional democracy. As much as I dislike being in the position of leaving government to the experts, I do respect the way lawyers are trained to recognize legal constraints on government powers. Well, that's no guarantee they won't do something stupid like passing PATRIOT with only one Senator voting NAY, so I have to question this prejudice of mine.

I agree that civil liberties is *the* issue facing our democracy. What I'd like to see is a party platform reaffirming a commitment to uphold the Bill of Rights, the liberties it enumerates, and the fundamental value of political freedom. Left to their own devices, I'm afraid the candidates will either point fingers at Ashcroft and leave it at that, or limit their criticisms to what seems popular, or not be in a position to get the nomination or weild any influence in the process of selecting a nominee.

[shance]

23. Isn't Carole wonderful?

I saw her speak about 6 months ago and she truly is a lovely person and yes, definitely knows her stuff.

If I wasn't such a Dean fan, she would be the one to get my vote, although it saddens me she has not received more name recognition. Shes a great person, and we need her back in government again.