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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:42 PM
Original message
Arabs fail to win nuke denunciation
THE UN atomic watchdog unanimously called Friday for a nuclear-weapons-free zone (NWFZ) in the Middle East but rejected an Arab call to denounce Israel as a nuclear threat.

Israel welcomed the idea of such a zone but said it advocates "achieving regional peace and security not arms control per se," in comments by Israeli atomic energy chief Gideon Frank.
A general conference of the 139-nation International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) also unanimously passed a resolution welcoming North Korea's agreement to abandon nuclear weapons and called upon Pyongyang to let IAEA inspectors back into the country.

Egyptian ambassador Ramzy Ezzeldin Ramzy told the IAEA conference that the resolution on a NWFZ invites Israel, believed to be the only nuclear weapons state in the Middle East, "to join the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and to accept that its various facilities be subject to the IAEA safeguards system."

Israel has not signed the NPT and neither confirms nor denies reports that it has some 200 atom bombs.

Read more...


That would be the "Arab dominated, anti-Israel" UN. It will not work because of the double-standard involved. Truly a plan designed to fail.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pure horse.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Israel will have to sign onto the NPT someday.
The longer they take the longer their credibility on many issues (except killing and occupation) will suffer. Being a dick is never the road to longterm success.

Israel isn't being forthright with the world community. Everybody knows it. Yet Israel wants the respectability that comes with trust. It's a dilemma for everybody. I think the brown people in their neighborhood are going to suffer alot more as Israel works out its frustrations, before a majority of Israelis lose their paranoia enough to be straight with their neighbors.

America is like the enabling mom of a domestic violence defendant who keeps reassuring him he's a great person after he beats up his girlfriend, again. "She just doesn't deserve you son. She's just a tramp after all." This is reflected in the three score of UN sanctions against Israel that America (alone) has vetoed. It's quite a sick little relationship.

Gyre

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. the "brown people"
whats a brown person....never heard of that varation in the middle east.....we have muslims, palestenians, jews, bedouin, arabs, christians, budhist.......we do have black Ethiopians and some "hebrews from america"..and i believe read about an eskimo in jerusalem...but brown?...




"I think the brown people in their neighborhood are going to suffer alot more as Israel works out its frustrations"
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 04:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. If you are an Israeli...
and the Palestinians had nukes, would you feel safer?

Let's say that Israel has nukes and they have had nukes for, say, the last ten years or so. How many times have they nuked the Palestinians? Once, twice, three times?

Gee, I don't think they've nuked ANYBODY (except for that little business in Iran a while back which was justified.)

So many people here in this forum LOVE to point out how many UN resolutions Israel has ignored or violated so if they believed Israel was a dangerous rogue state it seem to me that they wouldn't hesitate to declare it a nuclear threat.

Achieving regional peace and security is exactly what Israel is doing for it's survival.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Ten years!?!
More like 40 years, Israel's had nukes since the 60's.

Love yr logical fallacy, btw.



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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. How many times have the Israelis nuked their neighbors?
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 09:32 AM by Coastie for Truth
How many times have the Western Allies used nukes?

In a nuke world - how many times have Israel, Pakistan, India, France, UK, and the former USSR used nukes? How many times has the US used nukes?

Next question - who is a threat to UK, France, US that would justify massive nuke arsenals.

You might want to read Henry Kissinger's PhD dissertation, republished for the popular books market, Nuclear weapons and foreign policy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. You had my attention until the end of the 1st question -
After that, it was deja vu all over again, as in "what has that got
to do with my post?"

As Kissinger warrants a mention, here's a C. Hitchens writing about
the good Dr.

"The Nation

June 7, 2001

The Fugitive

Christopher Hitchens

It was, take it for all in all, a near-faultless headline: HENRY KISSINGER RATTRAPÉ AU RITZ, À PARIS, PAR LES FANTÔMES DU PLAN CONDOR. I especially liked the accidental synonymy of the verb rattraper. What a rat. And such a trap. It was in this fashion that the front page of the Paris daily Le Monde informed its readers that on Memorial Day the gendarmes had gone round to the Ritz Hotel--flagship of Mohamed Al Fayed's fleet of properties--with a summons from Judge Roger Le Loire inviting the famous rodent to attend at the Palace of Justice the following day. In what must have been one of the most unpleasant moments of his career, noted Le Monde, the hotel manager had to translate the summons to his distinguished guest. Kissinger left the hotel, surrounded by bodyguards, and later announced that he had no desire to answer questions about Operation Condor. He then left town.

Operation Condor (see Peter Kornbluh, "Kissinger and Pinochet," March 29, 1999, and "Chile Declassified," August 9/16, 1999) was a coordinated effort in the 1970s by the secret police forces of seven South American dictatorships. The death squads of Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Ecuador and Bolivia agreed to pool resources and to hunt down, torture, murder and otherwise "disappear" one another's dissidents. They did this not just on their own soil but as far away as Rome and Washington, where assassins and car-bombs were deployed to maim Christian Democratic Senator Bernardo Leighton in 1975 and to murder the Socialist Orlando Letelier in 1976. The Pinochet regime was to the fore in this internationalization of state terror tactics, and its secret police chief, Col. Manuel Contreras, was especially inventive and energetic.

Thanks to the efforts of Representative Maurice Hinchey, who attached an amendment to the Intelligence Authorization Act last year, we now know that this seven-nation alliance had a senior partner. At all material times, those directing the work of US intelligence knew of Operation Condor and assisted its activities. And at all material times, the chairman of the supervising "Forty Committee," and the key member of the Interagency Committee on Chile, was Henry Kissinger. It was on his watch that the FBI helped Pinochet to identify and arrest Jorge Isaac Fuentes de Alarcón, a Chilean oppositionist who was first detained and tortured in Paraguay and then turned over to Contreras and "disappeared." Contreras himself was paid a CIA stipend. Other Condor leaders were promised US cooperation in the surveillance of inconvenient exiles living in the United States."

More at;
The Nation

Also;

"Why has he got away with it?

Henry Kissinger is revered as a statesman, cosseted guest, star of the lecture circuit. He is also the one-time US Secretary of State who oversaw the destruction of civilian populations, the assassination of politicians and the kidnapping of those who got in his way - from Indochina to Cyprus, East Timor and, here, Chile. Christopher Hitchens lays the charges

Christopher Hitchens
Guardian

Saturday February 24, 2001

On December 2, 1998, Mr Michael Korda was being interviewed on camera in his office at Simon & Schuster. As one of the reigning magnates of New York publishing, he had edited and "produced" the work of authors as various as Tennessee Williams, Richard Nixon and Joan Crawford. On this particular day, he was talking about the life and thoughts of the singer Cher, whose portrait adorned the wall behind him. And then the telephone rang and there was a message to call "Dr" Henry Kissinger as soon as possible. A polymath like Mr Korda knows - what with the exigencies of publishing in these vertiginous days - how to switch in an instant between Cher and high statecraft. The camera kept running, and recorded the following scene for a tape which I possess.

Asking his secretary to get the number (759 7919 - the digits of Kissinger Associates), Mr Korda quips drily, to general laughter in the office, that it "should be 1-800-cambodia . . . 1-800-bomb-cambodia". After a pause of nicely calibrated duration (no senior editor likes to be put on hold while he's receiving company, especially media company), it's "Henry - Hi, how are you? . . . You're getting all the publicity you could want in the New York Times, but not the kind you want . . . I also think it's very, very dubious for the administration to simply say yes, they'll release these papers . . . no . . . no, absolutely . . . no . . . no . . . well, hmmm, yeah. We did it until quite recently, frankly, and he did prevail . . . Well, I don't think there's any question about that, as uncomfortable as it may be . . . Henry, this is totally outrageous . . . yeah . . . Also the jurisdiction. This is a Spanish judge appealing to an English court about a Chilean head of state. So it's, it . . . Also Spain has no rational jurisdiction over events in Chile anyway so that makes absolutely no sense . . . Well, that's probably true . . . If you would. I think that would be by far and away the best . . . Right, yeah, no I think it's exactly what you should do and I think it should be long and I think it should end with your father's letter. I think it's a very important document . . . Yes, but I think the letter is wonderful, and central to the entire book. Can you let me read the Lebanon chapter over the weekend?" At this point the conversation ends, with some jocular observations by Mr Korda about his upcoming colonoscopy: "a totally repulsive procedure".

By means of the same tiny internal camera, or its forensic equivalent, one could deduce not a little about the world of Henry Kissinger from this microcosmic exchange. The first and most important thing is this. Sitting in his office at Kissinger Associates, with its tentacles of business and consultancy stretching from Belgrade to Beijing, and cushioned by innumerable other directorships and boards, he still shudders when he hears of the arrest of a dictator. Syncopated the conversation with Mr Korda may be, but it's clear that the keyword is "jurisdiction". What had the New York Times been reporting that fine morning? On that December 2, 1998, its front page carried the following report from Tim Weiner, the paper's national security correspondent in Washington. Under the headline "US Will Release Files On Crimes Under Pinochet", he wrote:

Treading into a political and diplomatic confrontation it tried to avoid, the United States decided today to declassify some secret documents on the killings and torture committed during the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet in Chile . . . The decision to release such documents is the first sign that the United States will cooperate in the case against General Pinochet. Clinton Administration officials said they believed the benefits of openness in human rights cases outweighed the risks to national security in this case. "

More at;
Guardian Unlimited


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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. I was posing an emblematic example.
Edited on Mon Oct-03-05 04:46 AM by Andromeda
It doesn't matter if, or how long, Israel has had nukes. If they have had nukes for 40 years as you say it's more to Israel's credit that they have used restraint in using them.

This shows that Israel has acted in a responsible manner towards its neighbors --- probably much more responsible than some of its neighbors would have acted toward them.

The United States has nukes but we don't use them. I hope the day never comes when we have to use them. It would be a last resort as we would have to be hit first.

Nuclear weapons are a deterrent and insure the peace. The only thing that could come out of a rogue state having nukes is mutually assured destruction.

I feel a lot safer with the U.S. and Israel having nukes than I would if Iran did. Some countries in the ME would like nothing better than to see Israel and the U.S. wiped off the face of the earth.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. You don't believe that the US/Israel are 'rogue states'?
How many international treaties,& laws must be ignored,
& how many preemptive wars are needed to convince you that
they are, then?



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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. That's funny coming from...
Edited on Tue Oct-04-05 04:20 AM by Andromeda
a UK citizen.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Hilarious.
We're all in it together, the Unholy Trinity of UK/US/Israel.


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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I disagree with the use of "unholy" in reference to my country
and the other two countries mentioned and the word "trinity" also. Nuff said
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Alright, I apologise for that.
I meant no offense, I'm not a Christian, so it's just a phrase
that I misused, but if it causes offense, then it wasn't intended.

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. If you are an intelligent human being...
you know that double-standards are inherently designed to fail. That is what my comment was about. Basic english 101.

Either you are anti-nuke, or you're not. You're not.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. simplistic?
black and white?...basic english belongs in the first grade....
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. English 101
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 11:24 PM by newyorican
is a college course.

Unless you get it at a college prep high school.

Rather than discuss higher education, you could actually address the point about double-standards being unsustainable and designed to fail.

Either you are or you ain't. If you want one country to have nukes, all will eventually get them. I don't want any country to have them. Period. That's not black and white, it survival or self-destruction.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. apply to all things..
and i'm anti violence....a lot of good that did my aunts and uncles

...i''m also anti "wife beating"......fact is nuclear physics exists as do their bombs...reality states dealing with it on a realistic level, not some fantasy of "gosh i wish its was never discovered)

nations states exists, some threaten, some get threatened with annihilation...iran, pakistan, india etc arent too interested in "protests" and wishful thinking.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. How about "applying" to the topic...
Edited on Mon Oct-03-05 06:34 PM by newyorican
which is NOT how you feel about violence and the totally illogical effect that would have on events that pre-date those feelings.

which is NOT about your position on "wife beating".

which is not about the existence of nuclear physics.

which is NOT about wishful thinking, so I won't ask you whom you're quoting there.

It's about the un-sustainability and certain failure of policies that maintain a double-standard. If you want country 'A' to have nuclear weapons, then nothing but money and time will stop countries 'b through z' getting them also. There's not much anyone can do to stop it.

So when you support country 'A' having nukes, you are in effect arguing for universal proliferation. Expecting anything less is a mental symptom of the lift not stopping at every floor.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. application in the real world...
Edited on Tue Oct-04-05 01:42 AM by pelsar
and we can all hold hands and sing "kumbaya".....except i might find my hand cut off by the iranian mullah next to me....

no such thing as "fair" in this world of nation states....evil and hate exists..just ask the ex pm of Malaysia, better yet ask the present pm of iran......

anti nuke is fine...so is being anti 500lb bomb....though i doubt the terrorists in bali would agree to give up their vests in the interests of holding hands and singing kumbaya with me.

its a sh¡tty and dangerous world...and the most unstable and dangerous are those who have gods ear....you'll excuse me if i dont trust them......(our history with those types and others who spew hatred towards my culture usually end up with my historical relatives dead...
in fact i would challange you to find a single long lasting period where my "group" was not subject to some form of "dehumanization...and then try to explain how today its "different"..unfortunally its not...just ask the saudis or iranians....
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I understand...
you simply can't or will not address the topic.

That's OK, just so long as we are clear you can't or won't deal with the certain failure of policies that attempt to maintain a double-standard.

As a side note, if you jump from a 10 story building, the impact will hurt the same even if you close your eyes. The only difference being you will not see the ground rushing toward you.
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