Police storm Temple Mount to disperse stone-throwers

[nn2004]

Angry Palestinian demonstrators clashed with police
after traditional midday Friday prayers at Temple
Mount in Jerusalem. Dozens of Muslims threw stones
at Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall.
...
"After Palestinian youngsters on the Temple
Mount threw rocks, a police contingent burst on
to the compound," a police spokesman said after
the end of Muslim Friday prayers at the site.
...
Around 30,000 Palestinian worshippers
participated in Friday prayers on the Temple
Mount, among them youth who had prepared
stockpiles of stones to throw at Jews praying
at the Western Wall.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/339677.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Typical

Anytime Arab radicals get mad at Jews, they drop stones down on them while the Jews pray at the Wailing Wall.

[jos]

2. Typical II

Anytime women try to pray outside their segregated area at the wailing wall, orthodox men throw stones at them.

[StandWatie]

3. I was about to say the same thing

[Jim Sagle]

4. Typical III

Anytime DUers try to post outside the Palestine First box by telling the ruth about the mideast, Palestine Firsters throw rhetorical stones at them.

[dfong63]

5. typical IV

yours is the first "rhetorical stone" thrown at a DUer in this thread. the others were speaking to the issues.

[dutchdemocrat]

9. Typical V

Who cares about the wailing wall?
The other one is still going up.

[Equinox]

35. LOL...

n/t

[StandWatie]

11. "the truth"

seems to largely consist of uninformed, gross stereotyping and a belief in an evil hivemind of Muslims.

[dfong63]

6. what's really typical

Anytime Arab radicals get mad at Jews, they drop stones down on them while the Jews pray at the Wailing Wall.

but when the Israelis get mad at the Arabs, they don't use stones --- they come in with tanks, bulldozers, and helicopter gunships. i'm sure the Palestinians would love to mount their attacks in the "civilized" way, like the Israelis, using modern military armaments instead of stones. but the Palestinians don't have an air force or even a real army.

[Jim Sagle]

7. what's even more typical

The Pals were TARGETTING worshippers.

[rini]

19. What's even more typical

is blaming the Jews for the actions of Palestinian hoodlums.

[Darranar]

21. Okay...

Show me one incident where anyone has blamed the Jews for the actions of Palestinian hoodlums. You may reply by PM if you wish.

[Jim Sagle]

56. Gee, like maybe this whole thread?

[Scurrilous]

70. Targetting Worshipers?

How very Baruch Goldstein-esque of them! :eyes:

[Scurrilous]

8. Atypical.

There were 30,000 Palestinians at Friday prayers. Dozens threw rocks. The vast majority of the group of Palestinian worshipers did not participate. Since 'typical' is defined as exhibiting the essential characteristics of a group, I would say the radicals were exhibiting 'atypical' or irregular behavior.

[LastDemInIdaho]

12. So why didn't the 30000-dozens stop their kind from throwing rocks?

Any good excuses for letting the dozens abuse the Jewish worshipers?

[Scurrilous]

72. LastDem..

I'm not trying to make excuses for the stone throwers. There is no excuse for people who throw stones at worshipers. As to why no Palestinians stepped in to stop the stone throwing, I have no answer. The Ha'aretz article doesn't go into much detail as to what happened yesterday. It's hard to judge the actions of a crowd of 30,000 from the few paragraphs provided.

[Resistance]

10. Sharon makes matters continually worse

by instigating, provoking, and inflaming the already volatile situation. Things are going exactly as planned for his regime.

Our only hope is for Democrats who, I am sure, will take a sane, balanced, even-handed approach.

[LastDemInIdaho]

13. Are you justifying the stoning of Jews worshiping?

Or just excusing their action due to Sharon?

[Resistance]

14. I am sorry you fail to see

how Sharon has instigated and inflamed the situation. But, by all means, please step right up and play the part of Ariel's lone defender here at Democratic Underground. And as much as it disappoints me to say this, from reading through other posts of yours, you do seem well suited to filling out that particular role.

[newyorican]

15. He's not the lone defender of Arik the Toad

There's plenty of company with him in bizarro land these days.

[Jim Sagle]

57. If Arik's a toad, Yasser's The Unnamable.

[Resistance]

58. I assume

you're not a Taoist

[Jim Sagle]

61. Cthulhu for President! Why vote for the lesser evil?

[LastDemInIdaho]

16. How did Sharon FORCE the stone throwers to abuse the Jewish worshipers?

Also, I am not defending Sharon anymore than you are defending suicide bombers and you know it. Knock off the personal attacks and stick to the facts.

You claimed it was Sharons fault and I'm asking how that can be. What? You can't back up your claim? Are these abusive stone throwers not under their own control and must abuse Jewish worshipers and blame it on Sharon?

[Resistance]

18. everyone knows Sharon is a major part of the overall problem

do you deny this or not?

[LastDemInIdaho]

22. There is no excuse to stone Jews worshiping - Sharon or no

do you deny this or not?

[Resistance]

25. no I don't deny it.

I do agree with you that throwing stones on Jewish, or any type worshipers is inexcusable.

Now, do you deny that Sharon has been an instigator and a major part of the overall problem?

[LastDemInIdaho]

27. I suspect Sharon is heavy handed and may let anger guide him

What I have not seen is Israel TARGET INNOCENT PEOPLE to make a point. Yes, Israel will often accept collateral deaths when targeting those that have TARGETED INNOCENT PEOPLE. Such is war but you do not ever accept killing innocent just to make a point or express your hate.

Yes, Sharon has been an instigator but that is no excuse to TARGET INNOCENTS. period. Find another way to express your concerns.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LastDemInIdaho]

29. You are wrong

Nice try at baiting me but I have no patience for word-twisters like you. Also I see no official judment that Corrie was murdered - only that she died in a terrible accident (post judicial proof if I missed it).

One soldier either making a mistake or hiding other motives can never match even the latest targeting of children on a bus.

I addressed Israel accepting missile damage while eliminating those terrorists that target children.

Stepping down from your elevated bait...

[Resistance]

30. what need is there to bait or twist words?

your defense of Israel's atrocious crimes against humanity speaks for itself.

you defend Corrie's killer: "I see no official judgement"

you defend the soldier who filled that little boy with bullets: "a mistake or hiding other motives"

you defend the deaths inflicted by Israel's horrific missile strikes as: "missile damage"

These are your words to live with; there is nothing remaining for me to twist.

[The Magistrate]

31. This Seems To Have Drifted A Bit, Sir

To your credit, you did at least make an acknowledgement it was wrong of the mob to stone Jews at a place they hold sacred.

Still, there is no meaningful way Sharon can be called an instigator of this particular incident. And there is something distasteful about this display of religious intolerance, even if it is to be explained as a means of protesting some act of Sharon.

Jews have every bit as much right to the place as Moslems.

[Resistance]

33. my argument

is that Sharon is instigating and inflaming the overall situation to ensure that incidents like this do occur - I argue that Israel (and I say that to include most political parties) has an aggressive, colonialist agenda that can only be justified to the American patron as part of the continuing cycle of violence.

To repeat, no I do not see any excuse for throwing stones on the worshipers in this situation. Ultimately, however, the tensions are definitely exacerbated as a direct result of Sharon's war plans, and (in my view) this is all in part of Israel's larger expansionist agenda.

[Darranar]

32. Hey, Resistance...

I think you're correct in regards to criminal acts by Israel, but I also think that Rachel Corrie was not "murdered by Israel." There are plenty of other things that israel has done - the wall, the settlements, the house demolitions - where Israel, as in the Government of Israel, has done immoral acts.

Just to clarify my point about Rachel Corrie above, I do not think that Israel killed her. The driver of the bulldozer probably killed her, but I don't think the GOI planned it - they would have no motivation to do so.

[Resistance]

34. Darranar

My first instinct is to hope that Israel would not intentionally engage in the killing of an American peace activist. But I've read the reports of the four eyewitnesses who testified that indeed, she was intentionally bulldozed by the driver. The question for me is, was it a random solo act committed by that driver? Or was there a direct order given to teach a lesson against a hated pro-Palestian peace group? Whatever the case may be, I trust the words of those four eyewitnesses.

Four eyewitnesses describe the murder of Rachel Corrie

We thought this might happen eventually. We often spoke in the abstract that eventually one of us would get killed, but we always figured they'd shoot us, or it'd be an "accident", like in a house that is missiled or a stray bullet gets an unlucky activist. I never dreamed it'd be like this, the intentional crushing of a human being.

I do believe it was intentional. I saw it, and I know he saw her, I know he did, and I know he knew she was still under the bulldozer when it backed up without raising its blade. I don't know if he wanted to kill her, or if he was just focused on doing his work and didn't care if he killed her or not, I don't know which is scarier. I don't feel like telling the whole detailed story right now. I promise that for the record I will tell it in detail, but give me a few days. I just want to quickly dispel a few myths you may have heard in the media. She did not "trip and fall" in front of the bulldozer. She sat down in front of it, well in advance, wearing one of the orange flouro jackets I got in Amsterdam. (By the way, I took the pictures you may have seen of her, standing with the megaphone in front of the bulldozer, and the ones of her friends helping her.)

He clearly saw her, and continued to drive until she was forced onto the top of the dirt he was pushing, elevating her so much that she was at eye level with the bulldozer's cab, he could see right into her eyes. He continued forward, pulling her underneath the dirt, and out of his vision. He continued forward, crushing her underneath the weight of the blade. He continued forward, until she was well underneath the bulldozer. It was then quite clear that she was nowhere but underneath him, but he proceded to back up, without lifting the blade, crushing her again.

[Darranar]

37. I trust those eyewtinesses as well...

yet the GOI had to know that this would be publiciczed. The Government of Israel had to know that this would be bad PR - that is why I don't think they planned it.

[Resistance]

40. was it publicized though?

Maybe in the international press, but the incident very quickly sank out of sight from American mainstream attention (where opinion matters to Israel). They even put Rachel's killer back on the job, an event which was entirely ignored in the US media.

I agree that questions remain as to official involvement of the state - however, I think we should also consider the attack on Brian Avery and the killing of Tom Hurndall, two more incidents involving ISM members, which both occurred within a month of Rachel's murder. And look, I know it appears inflammatory to talk about "Israel's murder of Rachel Corrie" but the fact is that she was killed by an operator of a military bulldozer, and in any other circumstance, that does fall under the responsibility of the state - does it not?

[Darranar]

42. To me...

it's akin to saying that the PA killed all of the innocent people who have been killed in suicide bombings.

I don't know if intentional killings by members of the military count as intentional killings by the state - that's a question I think the Magistrate could answer best.

Anyway, it's important to note that the GOI's actions towards the palestinians have always been large-scale; things like the settlements, the wall, the house demolitions. Though the GOI tolerates the murder of innocent non-Israelis by individual settlers or soldiers, I don't think that they commmand those actions; it just wouldn't fit their tactics.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. I'm just guessing here...

And I hope The Magistrate pops in and confirms it, but I'd be thinking that intentional killings by members of the military can be classified as intentional killings by the state only if military leaders have given orders to carry out the killings. In the case of Rachel Corrie's death, I think the bulldozer driver intended to kill her, but that he wasn't acting on orders from the IDF to do so. What the IDF did in clearing him so quickly and returning him to work again was repugnant, and while it may have been overlooked by the US mainstream media, it wasn't here or I suspect in many other parts of the world...

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

77. By My Understanding, Ma'am, You Are Correct

The act of an individual soldier, carried out without orders to do what he did, is not the responsibility of the state. There is, however, a further consideration. If a state shows a pattern of toleration for criminal acts, carried out by its individual soldiers, or even by its citizens, it may be held responsible for them, because it has not used its powers to prevent them. Some of the charges at The Hague today are of this nature, relating to activities of Serb armed forces and civilian gangs, that the Serbian state openly tolerated, and a number of Israeli accusations against Arafat fall under this general concept. There have certainly been a number of instances where the Israeli authorities have been lax in investigating shootings by soldiers under questionable circumstances, and the treatment of settler thugs by the Israeli government is an open scandal. A good case could be made, by anyone so inclined, along this line.

In the particular case of the unfortunate Ms. Corrie, it is my view that the thing was an accident, in which the driver may very well have been negligent. His testimony is that on moving closer toward her, he lost sight of her, and backed up his machine then to avoid her. It also seems that the worst harm to her came precisely from this backing-up. The view from the machine is not very good, and they are extraordinarily noisy: it does not seem incredible to me that he could have lost sight of her, and cries of warning gone unheard. He ought not have approached so closely, however, bearing these things in mind, that a momentary innattention might have had such consequences. An element of "chicken" may well have been involved.

There does not seem to be any reason to doubt that the house was that of an Arab Palestinian doctor, uninvolved in militancy. My recollection of reports at the time is that a "dead zone" around an Army outpost was being cleared.

[LastDemInIdaho]

38. She sat down in front of it

Thus making it harder for the operator to see her. I wold hope that future dozer blockers understand that they must remain visible to the dozer operator.

One of my youth jobs was running a dozer and I can attest that you can't see any objects below the top of the blade.

Sad ending to an unfortunate accident. My thoughts go out to her family and those that did not encourage her to risk her life.

[Darranar]

39. She STOOD UP!

Did you read the eyewitness reports?

[RowWellandLive]

63. Yeah right

that bulldozer driver ran over her intentionally because he was a cold blooded killer. Sure. Rachel and her pro Palestinian (not pro peace) cohorts had stood in front of these bulldozers in the past. They felt they were safe because the bulldozers always avoided them before. This was an accident. I do wonder why she and her friends were so concerned about protecting a weapons storage area that would ensure the deaths of more Israelis. Her death is tragic but no more so then the innocent Israeli children riding buses. Interesting how she is such a martyr to some progressives and others are forgotten.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. Hint: Facts Can Be Yr Friend...

That 'weapons storage area' was the home of a Palestinian doctor and his family. This same doctor was interviewed by the world's media in the days after Rachel Corrie's death, and claims that it wasn't a house she was protecting or that she was protecting a bunch of terrorists (hence according to the more wacky 'pro-Israel' brigade, making her and the ISM terrorists by association) is propaganda swill of the most clumsy kind brought direct to us all from all those ultra-right wing blogs on the internet that some folk spend way too much time at. So, a quick check of the facts would have had you not wondering at all...

btw, no regular poster here has forgotten any of the Israeli deaths in this conflict. I suspect the 'confusion' comes when people read this forum and expect people to obsess over the deaths of Israelis and gloss over the 'collateral damage' that is the preferred way to describe the deaths of Palestinian civilians...

Violet...

[drdon326]

66. Almost right....

Saint Rachel was protecting an arms and ammunition
tunnel.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Yr totally wrong...

She was protecting the house of a Palestinian doctor....

Violet...

[RowWellandLive]

62. Why was my post deleted?

I merely pointed out that this forum is a cesspool of pro Palestinian and anti Israeli sentiment. Has it escaped the moderaters notice that many articulate pro Israeli posters have come and gone. This place is one-sided and no where near representative of the Democratic Party's platform. Obviously this is known as the I/P forum is buried deep in DU.

[Scurrilous]

69. Cesspool?

So expressions of Palestinian sentiment make this forum a cesspool? Wow! I'd hate to have to see you sully your poor self any further by wallowing in such drek. May I suggest a minty-fresh pro-Israel website:
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php. Enjoy! :)

[Resistance]

75. haven't you learned?

any expression of sympathy for Palestinian victims of Israeli aggression is to be labeled "anti-Israel".

Also, remember this post when anyone attempts to defend the conservative partisans by saying "show me where charges of 'anti-Israel' have been made". You see alot of complaints from people who write in their posts that "I am sure I will be called 'anti-semitic' for this, but ..." or "I am tired of having the 'anti-Israel' label thrown at others around here", and then many times after a post like that someone blindly says "where? I haven't seen any charges like that!" - Well there's one now, besides the fact that the insinuations are made almost daily. And people wonder why others don't want to come join the discussion down here due to the charge of "anti-Israel", "anti-Jewish", or "anti-semitic" consistently hurled towards Palestinian sympathizers.

[rini]

17. You are absolutely correct

Sharon was out there screaming and telling thes hoodlums "Look, Jews praying, that's not allowed,kill, attack, they are unarmed now!"

And of course like sheep to the sheppard they obeyed.
Get a grip!

[Darranar]

20. Sharon...

is a horrible prime minister of Israel. He's a war criminal, and he has no desire whatsoever for peace.

His actions have indeed inflamed the situation.

[LastDemInIdaho]

23. Is Sharon an excuse to stone Jewish worshipers?

Yes or No?

[Darranar]

24. No...

nor is he an excuse for suicide bombings.

[LastDemInIdaho]

26. Thank you for an honest and clear answer

If only others would follow your lead.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. So which questions of yrs have gone unanswered?

I'm just asking because I'm still waiting for an answer from you in another thread. Anyway, Darranar just gave the same answer as I would, and I would also add that throwing stones at Jewish worshippers and suicide bombers aren't an excuse for many of Sharon's actions...

Violet...

[LastDemInIdaho]

43. "stood up" was not mentioned in the above article

Even if it was why would it matter in the face of the dozer operator stating he DID NOT SEE her? Is there some compelling reason the dozer operator (an ordinary labourer) would be doubted compared to the Corrie supporters?

All of the poeople involved in this terrible accident were just normal people like you and me? Why would the dozer operator automatically be assumed guilty any sooner than the person performing bad judgment and trying to block a 25000 pound dozer?

[Darranar]

44. That's four eyewitnesses...

to one. And that one was the person who committed the act.

[LastDemInIdaho]

45. "THE" act?

I see two acts here: One is the person sitting in front of a dozer and Two is the person driving the dozer. If the driver says he did not see the person sitting in front of the dozer then why do you not believe him over someone speaking for the dead victim sitting in front of the dozer?

[Darranar]

46. The "act" is the murder...

you have four people who witnessed the event and told pretty much the same story, and against them you have the driver who killed rachel Corrie, intentionally or not. The evidence seems to point towards Rachel Corrie's murder.

[LastDemInIdaho]

47. Majority statements does not prove guilt

A court of law determine guilt. If you claim the group of people claiming the dozer operator is guilty of murder then you are stating your opinion only.

I respect your opinion but it is just that: an opinion.

[Darranar]

49. The bulldozer was never tried in a court of law...

the evidence is enough that at the very least he should be tried.

[LastDemInIdaho]

50. Then petition for a trial

Until then please try to accept that it has not been PROVEN as murder.

Emotion has no place in the court of law.

[Darranar]

51. It isn't going to happen...

Israel has investigated few cases like this, and just a while ago they released a number of settler terrorists.

[Darranar]

52. Btw...

Remember what you just said if you ever wish to make a statement in support of extra-judicial air strikes against Hamas militants.

[Resistance]

53. I know this isn't about scoring points

but wow, that's a big three pointer you've sunk, Darranar

:thumbsup:

[RowWellandLive]

60. Thanks for playing

Defenders of Israel come and go around here. I appreciate your efforts. I simply do not have the stomach to engage in the cesspool of Pro Palestinian/Anti Isreal sewage this forum has become. That is why it is hidden deep in the recesses of DU. Lest not the average Dem see what the base has to say on the I/P issue. Thankfully the leadership of our party does not agree with what is the majority opinion here.

I wish you luck but predict you will not last long. Best to get out of here and wipe any thoughts of it away as quickly as possible.

This message is doomed to be deleted so read it fast!!

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Seeing defence of human rights can be so stomach-churning for some...

I'm afraid that if the average Dem should be sheltered from seeing concerned people speaking out against human rights abuses committed by Israel, then I've got zero time for the average Dem. And to say that being pro-Palestinian makes someone anti-Israel is really silly. How does yr mind compute the many people who support the continued existance of Israel as a Jewish state, but feel a deep concern for the Palestinian people and want them to have their own independent state? Don't we exist? And if the leadership of the Democrats doesn't agree with me on that, then I'm giving them a cheerful 'Fuck You Fascist!' and not losing any sleep over it...

btw, I hope no-one hits alert on what really was a post full of nonsensical comments. It should sit here so everyone can see how incredibly biased and unjust some folk can be on this issue...

Violet...

[Darranar]

71. You aren't the only one...

on this forum who would be more than happy to yell "Fuck you fascist" at the DLC and their cohort, Lieberman.

However, I do not think that the DLC represents the average DEm any more than AIPAC represents the average Jew.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinnypriv]

76. I predict tomestone

In ooo... 50 posts or so.

[EFF BrandyWine]

36. I am curious...

the article states that Palestinian youngsters threw rocks at Jewish worshippers (below them) at the Wailing Wall. Since there were about 30,000 Palestinians worshippers at the Mosque, shouldn't at least some of the adults have admonished the children? Piling up rocks takes a little time and is visible to at least some of 30,000 people, No? It is my understanding this happens frequently. I have to tell you that in Arizona there are always a couple of policemen guarding our Temple during services. This is very sad.

[Resistance]

41. that is a good point

guess who opposes the presence of international peacekeeping forces in the region?

Israel and the U.S.

[LastDemInIdaho]

48. So out of 30000 Palestinian witnesses not one could help stop the attack

Without an international peacekeeping force the Palestinians can't be trusted to police their own few abusive rock throwers?

[Resistance]

54. you lose credibility

by attempting to paint Palestinians as a people who "can't be trusted". I agree that out of all those people, it is a disappointment to learn that nobody stopped the stone throwers, but come on - they're humans no different from you or I.

[Darranar]

55. There was a stabbing in Manhattan years ago...

in broad daylight. A woman was stabbed to death, and out of the thousands who saw her or heard her screams, no one did anything.

The Palestinians are, rightfully, more afraid.

[pschoeb]

59. AP says some witnesses did not see stone throwers

snip...
"In Jerusalem, meanwhile, Israeli police stormed the city's most hotly disputed holy site Friday, firing tear gas and stun grenades to disperse Muslim worshippers who police said threw stones down at Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall. Some witnesses said they didn't see stones thrown but ran after they heard the shouts of Muslims atop the wall."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030912/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_692

Also there was a Reuters and a AP photographer on the scene as it happened, and we have several photos of people fleeing the Western Wall, but no pictures of stone throwers, or even of stones on the ground in the Western Wall area(or even people on top of the wall). These photos would be key for any photo journalist, even just a picture of the thrown stones on the ground by the Western Wall after it had been cleared. So far, I haven't found any such photos, and have found several that show the ground with no stones. Photos were taken this same day of Palestinian throwing stones at the IDF at the Kfar Darom checkpoint.

Temple Mount photos
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?ei=UTF-8&p=temple+mount&c=news_photos

Kfar Darom
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?c=news_photos&p=Kfar+Darom

Patrick Schoeb