Rightists in Hebron clash with U.S. envoy's bodyguards

[subsuelo]

The American bodyguards of a Bush administration envoy who was dispatched to the region to monitor the implementation of the road map engaged in a violent confrontation with right-wing Israelis who sought to disturb a visit to Hebron on Friday, Israel Radio reported.

One of the rightists is reported to have driven his jeep into the convoy accompanying General William Fraser. Subsequently, one of the vehicles in the convoy heavily collided with the jeep, according to Israel Radio.

A fracas ensued between the guards and the rightists before the Americans decided to cut the visit short, Israel Radio reported.

Haaretz - read more

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. A "fracas?" What would this be called if Palestinian "rightists" attacked a US convoy?

An international terrorist attack, that's what!

[Shaktimaan]

2. Maybe. Maybe not.

But you act as though people jumping to "terrorism" conclusions with Palestinians is just due to mindless racism or media spin. The fact is that Palestinians have been responsible for quite a large amount of international terrorist attacks in the past few decades whereas Israelis have not.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

3. Not true at all.

In the past 2 decades, Palestinians have NOT been involved in international terrorist attacks.

[The Magistrate]

4. A Shrewdly Chosen Cut-Off Point, Ma'am....

One of the problems over all in this conflict is that memories go back a good deal farther than 1988....

"The key to ruling is to continually provide the people with fresh grievances, lest they fall to remembering old ones."

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. International terrorism is NOT a characteristic of modern Palestinian nationalist movements.

And I'm using the time period Shakti mentioned.

[The Magistrate]

6. "Past Few Decades', Ma'am, Is A Pretty Flexible Usage

My own inclination is to use 'few' to convey 'more than a couple', but 'less than half-a-dozen', and for that matter, to use 'modern' for a range of anywhere from three centuries on down to the last half of the last century, depending on context, and with the exception of electronic and laser technologies, where its meaning might best be restricted to later than last Thursday on occassion....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Not one incident since mid 80s, which is more than half of the lifespace of Palestinian nationalist

movements. I'd say that's more than enough time for us to be able to say with certainty:

International terrorism is not a feature of Palestinian nationalism.

[The Magistrate]

8. Arab Palestinian Nationalism, Ma'am, Commenced About 1910 Or Thereabouts

And, it is worth noting, Christian intellectuals were among its leading early proponents.

'International terrorism', too, admits of many meanings, but its awkwardness pales before that of the general coinage 'terrorism', which is a remarkable sound indeed, since it has the quality, perhaps unique among words, of conveying meaning only about the person using it, rather than about the thing it purports to name. The only real meaning 'terrorism' has is 'violence of which the speaker disapproves, for political aims the speaker opposes'. Any modifier applied to it will only be an attempt to make more emphatic the speaker's disapproval, as things like 'international terrorism' or 'state terrorism' seem to some ears to have a heavier ring....

[msmcghee]

9. Good points. What is . .

. . "International Terrorism" anyway? It would pretty much have to be defined as terrorism across another nation's borders.

Perhaps the poster was indicating that in her analysis, no international borders had actually been crossed, for the more recent terrorist attacks.

[The Magistrate]

10. Probably The Meaning Intended, Ma'am, was Actions Outside Israel

Such as the P.F.L.P. used to engage in (my recollection of the alphabet soup may be a tad rusty, of course), and some of the actions carried out by aligned foreign factions such as the Japanese Red Army and a few others in the same period.

But the distinction does not seem to me to be signifigant: as you will be weary of my saying, doubtless, there is a war on between the two peoples, and the rest is just detail....

[msmcghee]

11. Sorry, That was said tongue-in-cheek.

I agree with your assessment.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. I stand by what I wrote.

Palestinians are not swarming the globe killing world citizens to instill terror.

[The Magistrate]

13. It Is Not My Contention That they Are, Ma'am

It is a fact, however, that that was done in the not too distant past; many now living and not of any advanced age remember it well. his is not of much importance, though, beside the over-riding fact, which is there exists a state of war between the peoples of Arab Palestine and of Israel, which both prosecute energetically. In the course of that war, the militant bodies of Arab Palestine have in the main conducted operations aimed specifically at killing non-combatant Israeli civilians, and to do that is a war crime. Israeli military operations have generally been aimed at members of combatant militant bodies, and in the course of these, certainly non-combatant Arab Palestinian civilians have been killed, and in the main, such incidental deaths do not rise to the level of war crimes, however distressing they may be.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. The fact remains, the modern exercise of that war does not include Palestinians committing

international acts of terror.

[The Magistrate]

18. And That Signifies What, Ma'am, Precisely?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. That, contrary to what many in the pro-Israel camp would have us believe, Palestinian nationalism,

even in its most violent forms, is not equivalent with groups such as Al-Qaida.

[oberliner]

22. A sucide bombing at a Passover Seder populated by senior citizens

In 2002, Hamas proudly claimed responsibility for the Passover massacre which killed 30 civilians, mostly in their 70s and 80s.

Just a few days later a suicide bombing by Islamic Jihad takes the lives of 21 Jews and Arabs at a restaurant in Haifa. A two-month old baby was among the dead along with several other young children.

Busses, cafes, pizza parlors, nightclubs, universities all were attacked by Palestinian suicide bombers throughout 2001, 2002, and 2003 and beyond. All were violent terror attacks deliberately targeting civilians.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. Those are tactics clearly aimed at Israelis.

I'm not saying certain groups don't use tactics of terrorism. I'm saying the struggle is limited to a nationalist struggle for a homeland. The targets are enemy targets.

In case you haven't noticed, Oberliner, as much as Magistrate likes to call this a war, it's quite assymmetric.

[The Magistrate]

27. What Is The Signifigance Of That Distinction, Ma'am?

Al'Queda considers a range of people from citizens of the United States and Western Europe to various 'heretics' as it defines them within the Moslem community to be its enemies, and its targets are enemy targets accordingly.

The fact that an asymetric match exists between contending forces in a war does not make it any less a war. Some hold that the general case is that asymetric war favors the side relying least on convention forces. It is hardly a case of my 'liking to call this a war'. but rather a case of may recognizing what the actual state of affairs is. Do you seriously mean to deny that the actual relations of the peoples of Israel and Arab Palestine are those of war, and have been for many decades? Is there any extended period since the Balfour declaration you would care to characterize as one of peaceable relations between the two peoples as a whole?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. Oberliner, please re-read my first post. I never intended to

get into a big terrorism discussion.

Surely you can agree with the idea that had Palestinians perpetrated that same act of violence, we'd be looking at a totally different response.

[oberliner]

26. I don't dispute that point

I just disagree with your claim later in the thread to which I responded.

But I agree that there is no need to get into a big terrorism discussion.

Regarding your main point, the reaction may have been different if Palestinians had created the "fracas" (it's not entirely clear from the tiny blurb that was posted what actually happened), but I'd say the response would've been the same if it had been demonstrators in, say, a country on friendly terms with the US in Europe or South America.

[oberliner]

21. Empire State Gunman's Note: Kill 'Zionists'

Published: February 26, 1997

The gunman who opened fire on the observation deck of the Empire State Building on Sunday said in a letter found on his body that he planned his attack as revenge for the treatment of Palestinians by the United States, Israel and other countries.

''The Zionists are the paw that carried out their savage aggression,'' wrote Ali Abu Kamal, the 69-year-old English teacher from Gaza who shot seven people before killing himself Sunday afternoon. ''My restless aspiration is to murder as many of them as possible, and I have decided to strike at their own den in New York, and at the very Empire State Building in particular.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E3DA1731F935A15751C0A961958260

[azurnoir]

25. On which Palestinian terror group

behalf was he acting on? Are we to assume Hamas or at the very least Islamic Jihad?

[Shaktimaan]

14. Ali Abu Kamal? np

[LeftishBrit]

16. Wow.

These people are thugs, who need to be tried and punished.

Now that they have disgraced their country publicly in front of foreign visitors, maybe their behaviour will be taken more seriously by the authorities.

[bemildred]

17. Seemed like assault with a deadly weapon to me.

The perps would be in jail here, pronto.

[The Magistrate]

19. Indeed, Ma'am

The escort would have been justified in opening fire, and probably ought to have done so....