Paramedic killed as shell hits ambulance in Gaza

[IndianaGreen]

IDF: the most moral army in the world :puke:

Paramedic killed as shell hits ambulance in Gaza

Press Association
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 4 January 2009 22.08 GMT

A paramedic working for an Oxfam-funded organisation was killed today after an ambulance was hit by an Israeli-fired shell, the charity said.

The Palestinian, working for the Union of Health Work Committees, was killed in Gaza.

Another paramedic lost his foot and the ambulance driver was injured in the same incident.

The paramedic was trying to help evacuate an injured person in the Beit Lahiya area, when the shell struck the ambulance, Oxfam said.

The UN estimates over 100 civilians have been killed in Gaza over the past week although some other organisations believe the civilian death toll is significantly higher.

John Prideaux-Brune, Oxfam's Country Director for Israel and Palestine, speaking from Jerusalem said: "The incident shows yet again that trying to fight a military campaign in the densely populated streets and alleys of the Gaza Strip will inevitably lead to civilian casualties.

"There are no safe areas and Gazans who want to flee the fighting have been prevented from leaving the Strip."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/paramedic-killed-israeli-shell-gaza

[Idealism]

1. Haaretz reported that half of Gaza's ambulances aren't working

due to bombings. Sickening

[IndianaGreen]

4. And the Gazans have no power, and no water.

Meanwhile, the American/Israeli Symbiosis's UN Ambassador keeps casting a veto over any ceasefire resolution, like he did during the 2006 Lebanon bombing. It wasn't until Israel got in trouble in Lebanon that the US/Israel Symbiosis called for a ceasefire.

[babylonsister]

2. One paramedic? How many more? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

3. In a war zone? Shocking!

[IndianaGreen]

7. During the 2006 Lebanon bombing, IAF targeted ambulances

according to The Independent's Robert Fisk, who almost became a casualty himself. Fisk also reported the use of incendiary phosphorus bombs by IAF over populated areas.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. "according to The Independent's Robert Fisk"

There is a font of truth! :eyes:

You even give an example, thank you!

"Fisk also reported the use of incendiary phosphorus bombs by IAF over populated areas."

Which was shown not to be true by two independent investigations by the Dutch and Italians.

[EFerrari]

9. Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon

By Meron Rappaport, Haaretz Correspondent

Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.

The announcement that the Israel Defense Forces had used phosphorus bombs in the war in Lebanon was made by Minister Jacob Edery, in charge of government-Knesset relations. He had been queried on the matter by MK Zahava Gal-On (Meretz-Yahad).

"The IDF holds phosphorus munitions in different forms," Edery said. "The IDF made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html

[Behind the Aegis]

12. And is that what was said? NO!

[EFerrari]

15. You seriously need to find a reality check that you can take in

for your own health and wellbeing.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

30. My reading skills are fine, thanks.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. No, sorry, they aren't up to snuff.

""Fisk also reported the use of incendiary phosphorus bombs by IAF over populated areas.""

Your post: "The IDF made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground."

See the problem?

I am guessing not, so...

""Fisk also reported the use of incendiary phosphorus bombs by IAF over populated areas.""

Your post: "The IDF made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground."

Does that help?

[EFerrari]

38. Your delusional defense of the IDF is only more clear

the more you deny this.

The IDF did not use those weapons over empty fields although their spin people do try to make it sound as if they do.

Does that help? Good God.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. And your proof?

The only one here with delusions is you.

[EFerrari]

40. Yes I notoriously and famously have delusions about the IDF.

Eta: You can't at the same time claim that the IDF has to bomb civilian populations because that's where their sneaky enemies always hide AND claim that their munitions are used solely on "military targets in open spaces".

As I said earlier, you are in serious need of a reality check.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. So, no proof.

So sorry I am not one of your fringe groupies who believe every anti-Israel thing you post.

[ellisonz]

42. That wasn't what he said...

[IndianaGreen]

10. Do you get the feeling we are just talking past one another?

Like the combatants in I/P conflict, we are long past talmudic rationalizations or historical justifications, and all we care about is not let the other side have the last word. It is a cycle of rhetoric, which mirrors the cycle of violence in the region. How is this cycle broken? Well, I'll tell you how is not broken: by continuing to do what was done before, over and over again.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Then don't excuse terrorism.

[IndianaGreen]

16. While Israel has been a victim of terrorism, the Occupation itself is terrorism

and here we are, back on the rhetorical cycle.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. The occupation is only "terrorism" as defined by propagandists and apologists.

[IndianaGreen]

19. What if Canada had occupied the US in the same manner Israel has Occupied Palestine?

I dare say we would be firing "Jefferson rockets" towards Canadian settlements.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. I have had this discussion before.

It doesn't even make sense.

[IndianaGreen]

23. There lies the problem, doesn't it?

It's not even a lack of empathy for the other side's point of view, it is an inability to even see the possibility that beliefs we so much cherished and nurtured since early childhood, may not be quite be what we thought they were.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. No, the problem is not being able to see the whole picture.

Life is not black and white, good and bad, no matter what propagandists, liars, hate-mongers, and the perpetually ignorant try to make it out to be.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Life is shades of grey, but it also has black and white issues, some clearly so more than others

The Holocaust was clearly evil. Killing civilians is also evil, although proportionally does not come anywhere near the level of exterminating an entire race of people. Murder is wrong. Rape is wrong. Anti-Semitism is wrong. Racism is wrong. Misogyny is wrong. Homophobia is wrong. There are no shades of grey on any of the aforementioned.

Firing qassams towards Israel is wrong. The Occupation is wrong. The war on Gaza is wrong.

I'll say this much, the United States is doing Israel no favours by being the perennial enabler to everything Jerusalem does.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. "The Occupation is wrong."

And therein lies the difference. It doesn't make it "terrorism." While you may find it wrong, it is not one of those "black/white" scenarios. Killing civilians is another one of those gray areas. It is not evil. This is where "intention" comes into play, y'know, the gray area. I had a "discussion" with another here who though "intention" had no role in what was happening, all it showed was how myopic some people are.

[IndianaGreen]

36. The Occupation is wrong to me, for I live in the West and I am not a Palestinian

To the Palestinians, the Occupation is 24/7 terrorism. And will stop here with that, because it is at this precise point where my Marxian view of the world takes over.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. There ya go.

[parkia00]

47. Did I read it correctly?

Did you just write that killing civilians is not an evil thing!??! If it's not evil, so I guess it also not that bad of a thing to do? It's acceptable like I hear some talking heads on the tube say? Ok fine and dandy? I seriously doubt you would agree to that if a Hamas member said that about Israeli civilians? Intention? If a Hamas terrorist is hiding in a flat that also houses civilians, women and children, and you drop a 1 ton bomb on the building killing all and knowing full well that the civilians will be killed... that's intention. Thats the intention of killing the terrorist and not giving a damn about anything or anyone else. Imagine if your local police department acted that way. At every robbery hostage situation will end up with SWAT going inside the building and mowing down everyone. "It's alright, situation clear, we got the robber, we need 21 body bags and the clean-up crew."

Now I'm not saying that the IDF goes out of it's way to purposely kill civilians, but lets face it, they don't care if they do when it comes to Palestinians. And that's the problem. Because this basically rounds up to defining the value of people's lives based on their ethnicity and anyone with a proper decent mind would have a serious problem with that.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. Lots of false conclusions on your part.

"If it's not evil, so I guess it also not that bad of a thing to do?"

This isn't the same thing and you should know this. Just because something is bad, doesn't make it "evil."

You do understand that war is happening, yes? You do understand, barring a completely civilian-free zone, the likelihood exists that civilians will be killed? If Hamas were to attack a shopping center because the IDF was holed up there, I would be pissed at the IDF. Funny though, the "pro-Palestinians" only seem to be pissed at the IDF in reverse situations. Israel doesn't target civilians, nor do they recklessly try to kill them. Hamas, on the other hand, no so much. They don't care.

It is astonishing the level at which Israel is expected to perform, but the same standards are not held for Hamas. Hamas uses human shields and all fingers wag at Israel for killing civilians. Israel attacks a munitions depot in a school, and people here scream about violation of international law on the part of Israel, all the while failing to see it is Hamas who is in violation.

You and those like you claim they see bad on both sides, yet it seems you only condemn Israel and expect Israel to lie down and "take it." Basically, it is racism. The "brown people" (Hamas) just don't know any better and therefore the Israelis should act accordingly.

[parkia00]

63. Lots of false conclusions on your part too.

You are the one that said killing civilians is not an evil thing. I'm not going to waste my time and argue the virtue of such a statement. I'm sure others can make up their own mind. I'm just wondering what your reaction will be if someone said that killing civilians is not an evil thing when it comes to a Hamas rocket. It is a war after all and civilians get killed isn't it. :sarcasm:

People hold Israel to a higher standard because they are a democratically elected country and a member of the world community. Because of that, certain behavior is to be expected. The same reason a police officer is supposed to be held to a higher standard than a criminal. If both the criminal and the police officer behaved like each other....?

I never indicated that Israel should "lie down and take it". Where you got that false conclusion, I don't know, nor really care. As for people "like me" which I take you mean people that have the sense to indicate or suggest to Israel or the Palestinians and some of their supporters that they might be doing something wrong or to step back and say something is not right or excessive....thanks for the compliment. It's much preferable to blind support and my country right or wrong attitude.

Yeah, I'm one of those who "claim they see bad on both sides". You would be blind, a liar or an idiot if you can't see sources of this conflict on your own side as well as the other. I condemn both parties for their belligerent attitude, shortsightedness, intolerance of each other and above all hating their enemies more than they love their children. Not to mention wasting lives of their own people to prove a point.

[ellisonz]

43. Hypotheticals.

[IndianaGreen]

44. Analogy

[ellisonz]

45. Different situations

[IndianaGreen]

46. Similar situations

[Alamuti Lotus]

21. A catagory which would or would not exclude you?

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Does it exclude you?

[Alamuti Lotus]

26. Unfortunately not, no

Though I usually have my own particular (oft peculiar) interests behind statements made, as I find it difficult to directly obey a coordinated campaign line. I also rarely answer a question with a question, a habit I find most bothersome when on display from others.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. And there it is.

[Alamuti Lotus]

32. What, honesty on display? Shocking concept, I know.

Would you seriously deny that for yourself as well?

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Actually, it is surprising.

I deny myself nothing. Well, except maybe a burrito on occasion.

[Idealism]

48. Somehow I don't think you would be saying

if you were the one being kicked off your farm land, having your power cut 20 hours out of the day, or going without adequate food - not because you can't afford it, but because there isn't enough supply to go around.

Both sides have blood on their hands and innocents has left the region years ago.

[Scurrilous]

5. Dark and cold Gaza waits for help as Israel steps up war

<snip>

"Frantic families across Gaza cowered in any shelter they could find on Monday morning as the Israeli army's onslaught against Hamas fighters continued into another day.

The dawn sky was lit by orange streaks from tank shells and warplane missiles while Hamas heavy machine guns took speculative shots at Israeli jets above the enclave of 1.5 million people.

Israeli infantry and Islamist militia fought in the Zeitoun suburb of Gaza City amid anxiety that the new day could bring an escalation of clashes in other parts of the territory's main city.

Only a few Hamas fighters ventured out overnight as Gaza streets were mostly blacked out by power cuts, residents said.

Fear was stoked up further by recorded messages sent to people's telephones.

"The Israeli army will use stronger force against Hamas," said one such message received early on Monday.

Another message sent was "Hamas's leadership is bringing you destruction."

For most of the population, it was another night of looking for any place that might be able to resist a shell.

"Our life is filled with fear," said Abdelrahim Malaka, a resident of the surrounded city. "We call on the world to have mercy on us and save us from the Israeli war. What did the children do wrong to have their houses bombed?"

"We are all scared because we can die at any moment," said Abu Abed al-Safadi, another resident.

"We saw a woman in our neighbourhood raising a white flag but the Israelis still fired at them. I don't know what happened to them."

Yehia Anis Hussein said: "We are shaking like our children. This is intolerable."

more

[azurnoir]

25. Israels claims

However, the Israeli government says there is not yet a "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza as aid agencies claim.

Acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a cabinet meeting on Sunday that his country would not let a crisis develop.

Perhaps it is time to ask the Israeli government to define a humanitarian crisis.

[Scurrilous]

31. No humanitarian crisis in Gaza? (Amira Hass)

<snip>

"Three hours after the Israel Defense Forces began their ground operation in the Gaza Strip, at about 10:30 P.M. Saturday night, a shell or missile hit the house owned by Hussein al-Awaidi and his brothers. Twenty-one people live in the isolated house, located in an agricultural area east of Gaza City's Zeitoun neighborhood. Five of them were wounded in the strike: Two women in their eighties (his mother and aunt), his 14-year-old son, his 13-year-old niece and his 10-year-old nephew.

Twenty hours later, the wounded were still bleeding in a shed in the courtyard of the house. There was no electricity, no heat, no water. Their relatives were with them, but every time they tried to leave the courtyard to fetch water, the army shot at them.

Al-Awaidi tried to summon help on his cell phone, but Gaza's cell phone network is collapsing. Shells have hit transponders, there is no electricity and no diesel fuel to run the generators. Every time the telephone works, it is a minor miracle.

At about noon Sunday, Al-Awaidi finally managed to reach S., who called me. There was nothing else that S., who lives nearby, could do.

I had known Al-Awaidi for eight years, and I called Physicians for Human Rights. They called the IDF's liaison office to ask it to arrange to have the wounded evacuated. That was shortly after noon - and as of press time, the liaison office had still not called PHR back.

Meanwhile, someone else had managed to reach the Red Crescent Society. It called the Red Cross and asked it to coordinate the evacuation of the wounded with the IDF. That was at 10:30 A.M. - and as of press time Sunday night, the Red Cross had still not been able to do so.

While I was on the phone with PHR, at about noon, H. called. He just wanted to report: Two children, Ahmed Sabih and Mohammed al-Mashharawi, aged 10 and 11, had gone up on the roof of their Gaza City house to heat water over a fire. There is no electricity or gas, so fire is all that remains.

Tanks are spitting shells, helicopters are raining fire, warplanes are causing earthquakes. But it is still hard for people to grasp that heating water has become no less dangerous than joining Hamas' military wing.

An IDF missile hit the two boys, killing Ahmed and seriously wounding Mohammed. Later Sunday, an Internet news site reported that both had died. But H.'s cell phone was not answering, so I could not verify that report."

more

[Alamuti Lotus]

6. Another known terrorist judiciously eliminated with amazing restraint *nt*

[madrchsod]

11. 1 idf-512+palestinians kill ratio

destruction of all basic services and government buildings....collective punishment.

the israelis are not god`s chosen people and god did not give "rights" to the land of palestine

[Behind the Aegis]

14. How disingenuous.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. That is an over simplistic view and a disengenuous statement

512 is since the air strikes, Hamas rockets have killed people in that time frame as well

While 512 is the current number, doubling of it will not surprise me. Lots of buildings and tunnels have gone down and there has been no opportunity to excavate them.

Hamas affiliates should be broken out from the raw number

That Hamas has tried to kill many more but has been unable to should factor in as well.

That Israel has built shelters and a warning system for S'derot while Hamas has placed their goals above the welfare of the people of Gaza is in there too.


Just to quote unbalanced numbers is far to simplistic a view...

[bridgit]

49. Sometimes when you push for a war, you get one. A dear friend of ours was a medic in Vietnam...

Watching the news the other day he made the comment, "These people are addicted to these petty little wars. Cause once you've been in a war, you'd do anything to stop the next one."

[soulcore]

51. Israel rains fire on Gaza with phosphorus shells

So much for not targeting civilian areas with WP. :puke:

Source: London Times

Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday. The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen.

As the Israeli army stormed to the edges of Gaza City and the Palestinian death toll topped 500, the tell-tale shells could be seen spreading tentacles of thick white smoke to cover the troops’ advance. “These explosions are fantastic looking, and produce a great deal of smoke that blinds the enemy so that our forces can move in,” said one Israeli security expert. Burning blobs of phosphorus would cause severe injuries to anyone caught beneath them and force would-be snipers or operators of remote-controlled booby traps to take cover. Israel admitted using white phosphorus during its 2006 war with Lebanon.

The use of the weapon in the Gaza Strip, one of the world’s mostly densely population areas, is likely to ignite yet more controversy over Israel’s offensive

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

[ohio2007]

52. Why Ambulances Sometimes Get Targeted By The IAF

Video shows palestinian gunmen using ambulances as troop carriers.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776

[bridgit]

56. And so it is: up is down, back is forth, angels of mercy are messengers of chaos

[soulcore]

60. So do they just destroy ALL the ambulances?

And if so, what do the hospitals use then?

[Kurska]

53. Even the world's best shot couldn't hit a moving ambulance with a artillery piece from miles away

It was obviously a accident, anyone who claims otherwise doesn't understand the logistics of the situation.

[ohio2007]

57. are you suggesting rockets on board the vehicle accidently went off ?

wouldn't be the first time

[azurnoir]

61. Ah yeah dude

about the Merkava 4 optical and tracking systems

The tank is equipped with a modern fire control and sighting system which includes computerized ballistic calculations and compensations, a dual axes stabilized gunner sight and a dual axis stabilized commander panoramic sight, both equipped with an advanced FLIR and TV channels for day and night operation. The system is equipped with an improved tracking system which enables tracking of moving targets, such as tanks, helicopters, vehicles or soldiers. It also enables locking the sight and gun on targets when the tank is on the move, utilizing the ultra-fast gun stabilization and electrical turret drive system. Merkava Mk-4 is believed to be protected by a new type of hybrid armour, which can be conformed from modular elements, to match specific threats. The Mk-4 retains the hull design of the previous Merkava versions.

http://merkava.defense-update.com/

[dipsydoodle]

54. Did you get the pictures of the dead children on your TV News ?

ITN broadcast them here in the UK on our news at c. 10pm GMT. The pictures were from the mortury relayed by a Palestinian cameraman. They expressed doubt that the pictures would be aired in Israel.

[Kurska]

55. I will never understand how being the people most responsible for this bloody mess, The UK can be so

Partisan.

[Vegasaurus]

58. CNN has had nonstop video from inside the Gaza City hospital all day

in case anyone is thinking that the" Jewish -contolled media" is not letting the news into the US.

[ohio2007]

59. interesting combat video posted on YouTube

Hamas Weapons in Civilan Areas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFl51__Q9Gc&eurl=

[BunkerHill24]

62. No doubt the IDF is attacking Ambulances,,,,

they have done it in the Lebanon war.

Of course the Israelis have been doing this type of punishment in GAZA and West Bank...ie, holding and slowing down ambulances carrying pregnant woman, and sometimes not allowing in whilst woman give birth at IDF check-points!