Red Cross: Israel's use of white phosphorus not illegal

[Fozzledick]

By ASSOCIATED PRESS
GENEVA

The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally.

The comments came after a human rights organization accused the Jewish state of using the incendiary agent, which ignites when it strikes the skin and burns straight through or until it is cut off from oxygen. It can cause horrific injuries.

The International Committee of the Red Cross urged Israel to exercise "extreme caution" in using the incendiary agent, which is used to illuminate targets at night or create a smoke screen for day attacks, said Peter Herby, the head of the organization's mines-arms unit.

"In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used," Herby told The Associated Press. "But it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way."

In response, the IDF said Tuesday that it "wishes to reiterate that it uses weapons in compliance with international law, while strictly observing that they be used in accordance with the type of combat and its characteristics."

Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231866575577&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Christa]

1. White phosphorus burns the flesh to the bone

How nice to know it is not illegal.

:sarcasm:

[Chulanowa]

2. Ah yes, intent

The difference between first and second degree murder.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. And the difference between hate crimes and "ordinary" crimes

:yoiks: :yoiks:

[Howardx]

3. wrong

"The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally"

having no evidence is a bit different from "Israel's use of white phosphorus not illegal"

your headline is misleading.

[Demit]

5. That's the H/L as it appeared on the AP story.

[Howardx]

6. so?

its not correct, anyone reading the article can see that for themselves.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. SO? Those are the rules for posting in this forum. You should know that by now.

[iconicgnom]

30. well, I for one am glad to see that you're cool about the use of white phosphorous!

It'd totally spoil my impression of Israel's defenders in it's time of need, faced with this "existential threat" -- that even one of them would recoil this abomination going down.

And besides, those streamers look so cool, with the F-16s streaking away.
Ya think the IDF should leave even one building standing? Or ya think that'd just leave work for the armored bulldozers, after the Palestinian diaspora is complete?

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Yes, because that is clearly what I said.

Do make up your outrage like you do other people's opinion?

[iconicgnom]

32. It sure was! In total synchronicity with your other statements.

Hey, we all can tell you're all heart.
So, you like those cool pics of the pinpoint bombings? I think those're even more awesome than the pics of the white phosphorous explosions!

Are you on the edge of your chair waiting to see what "the third phase" brings to the telly? I bet you are!

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Actually, you are the one who seems "jazzed."

My guess, more dead Palestinians justifies your hate of Israel even more. MORE! MORE! You're probably sitting in front of the computer watching live cams in hopes you will see some "action." :eyes:

[iconicgnom]

35. If so, I have people like you to thank for delivering.

I think it's awesome how well you, and a couple other posters here, represent your cause.
So, do you think the IDF is regaining the world's respect after the '08 flub? Hmmm?

[Behind the Aegis]

38. I think it is telling how posters like you and others have nothing better than...

...personal attacks and lame non-sequiters.

[iconicgnom]

39. so? the h/l isn't correct, but I for one am glad you're cool with the use of white phosphorous!

[Demit]

40. Take up your headline problem with the Associated Press.

Not with the OP who was following DU rules.

[iconicgnom]

41. How f&*king hard would it be for you to click the link and check your statement?

[Demit]

49. I read the story yesterday when it was posted, you lovely individual.

[iconicgnom]

55. I don't pretend to be "lovely". I do try to be honest.

(edited to eliminate smilies from the url)

It wasn't easy, but I found a cached copy from yesterday. It's a huge url, but it does confirm that Jerusalem Post changed the header from "Red Cross: ...." to "IDF ...."

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:Dlj40pi-bjwJ:www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite%3Fpagename%3DJPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid%3D1231866575577+Red+Cross:+Israel%27s+use+of+white+phosphorus+not+illegal+jerusalem+post&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=opera

However, what the discussion whether DU rules are kept doesn't address the issue, whether the synopsis in that header, whether attributed to "Red Cross" or "IDF", follows from the actual Red Cross statement, and on that issue Howardx's argument is both sound and valid. The synopsis in that header does not follow.

Small point, but while people are being shake'n baked to death, what the hell, all of us "lovely people" can argue about angels dancing on the heads of pins.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. The h/l was correct at time of posting.

"but I for one am glad you're cool with the use of white phosphorous!" The common, and I do stress, common, 'strawman.'

[iconicgnom]

45. you aren't? You condemn the IDF for the use of white phosphorous?

Well, OK then. But I wouldn't have guessed.

[iconicgnom]

46. Howardx's reply was both sound and valid reasoning from begin to end.

It is you who introduced the strawman about "DU rules".

[Behind the Aegis]

47. DU rules aren't strawmen.

And, at the time of his posting, the OP was correct.

[iconicgnom]

48. I don't believe you.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. Can't really say I give two figs.

On edit: I see you found I was actually telling the truth. ;)

[iconicgnom]

58. "the truth" = you support the use of white phosphorous. Not on Tel Aviv, tho'

[Behind the Aegis]

59. Can't even apologize, just more baseless personal attacks.

Expected.

[iconicgnom]

61. Don't even have the courage of your convictions!

Not "expected", but glaringly obvious.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Pathetic. Nothing but attacks. A real "credit" to your cause.

[Sezu]

34. Rules, schumules....if it can't demonize Israel it don't

play well here. sooner or later some rocket scientist will figger out too the racist intent of WHITE phosphorous.....oooohhhhhh those murderous Jews.

:sarcasm:

[Fozzledick]

8. It says the Red Cross is aware of it being used for smoke or illumination

and that that is NOT illegal.

[EFerrari]

9. The civilians showing up burned at medical facilities show clearly

and publicly that WP has been used on civilians. Parse that.

[Fozzledick]

12. The burn cases you refer to do not appear to be from WP

White phosphorus burns thru flesh and muscle to the bone, leaving distinctive deep holes and smoldering wounds that cannot be extinguished with water. The skin-burn cases being used for the propaganda you refer to show none of these identifying signs. Even the Palestinian Doctors making this claim seemed to realize it wouldn't stand up, hedging their statements with a disclaimer that they didn't know what WP burns look like. The Red Cross does know what it looks like, and would not have made this statement if they had seen any actual cases.

[EFerrari]

13. That's just pathetic.

There was unambiguous video on AC360 last night and he's one of the last outlets to get anything.

This has been in the news for days and to continue to deny it is just embarrassing.

Repost:

Rights group: Israel uses incendiary bombs in Gaza

By JASON KEYSER, Associated Press Writer Jason Keyser, Associated Press Writer – Sun Jan 11, 9:10 pm ET

JERUSALEM – Human Rights Watch said Sunday that Israel's military has fired artillery shells with the incendiary agent white phosphorus into Gaza and a doctor there said the chemical was suspected in the case of 10 burn victims who had skin peeling off their faces and bodies.

Researchers in Israel from the rights group witnessed hours of artillery bombardments that sent trails of burning smoke indicating white phosphorus over the Jebaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza. But they could not confirm injuries on the ground because they have been barred from entering the territory.

The chief doctor at Nasser Hospital in southern Gaza said he treated several victims there with serious burns that might have been caused by phosphorus. He said, however, that he did not have the resources or expertise to say with certainty what caused the injuries.

The substance can cause serious burns if it touches the skin and can spark fires on the ground, the rights group said in a written statement calling on Israel not to use it in crowded areas of Gaza.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_white_phosphorus

[Behind the Aegis]

15. rolling eyes and LOL

sfexpat2000 (1000+ posts) Tue Jan-13-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. LOL! You hold out the AP as some kind of standard for journalism?
These are the same people that fronted WMD and Bruce Ivins.

[EFerrari]

16. And I made no claims for them but simply reposted.

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Oh, but you did.

"This has been in the news for days and to continue to deny it is just embarrassing."

[Fozzledick]

18. Did you even read what you posted???

"a doctor there said the chemical was suspected in the case of 10 burn victims who had skin peeling off their faces and bodies."

WP causes deep smoldering wounds, not wide surface burning.

"serious burns that might have been caused by phosphorus. He said, however, that he did not have the resources or expertise to say with certainty what caused the injuries."

So he didn't say that they WERE caused by WP, just suggested that they MIGHT be just because they were burns, and then covered his ass professionally for the misleading statement by saying he lacked the expertise to know.

[EFerrari]

23. As I said, pathetic.

[Howardx]

14. link?

no one has any reason to take your word for it mouthpiece.

[EFerrari]

17. The pattern is really clear. Doctors say they are seeing people

with burns consistent with WP. As they were not there when these burns occur, these doctors usually include a caveat in their statements because they are more careful than the IDF.

But, taken together, these doctors' reports with the video clips that have now gone all over the world plus the IDF refusal to deny they are using WP in civilian areas, add up to, the IDF is knowingly using WP in civilian areas.

[azurnoir]

19. It comes down to this

as long as Israel did not directly fire the WP at people or dwellings but simply near them even knowing the "collateral" the use of WP is in the strictest terms legal. However I have now asked a couple of folks I know with military backgrounds about the use of WP as a smokescreen and was told yeah it can be used as that, but it is by no means the effective smokescreen nor the cheapest there are other more effective ways.
What is important here for some is that it is legal under the law the collateral is is really a who cares I don't as long as it looks good

they do Dershowitz proud

[EFerrari]

20. The claim that IDF did not consciously use WP on these civilians

leaves only the possibility that zombies or sleeping people were firing those shells.

[azurnoir]

22. OMG

you just caused a should I have smiled at that moment

[Howardx]

21. applicable quote

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them" -- George Orwell

[azurnoir]

24. How true I think Orwell applies all over this conflict n/t

[Indenturedebtor]

36. It would seem that the door you've opened with that quote swings both ways

[Howardx]

10. what the article says is this

"The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally"

they dont say israels use of it is legal, they say they have NO EVIDENCE it is illegal.

why do you think they decided to phrase it that way? could it be that they suspect illegal use but havent gathered the proof yet?

[ohio2007]

27. "has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally" means

The Red Cross wants access, it's time to open the burn units. That is where the burden of proof lies.

[Barack_America]

4. Not illegal, just wrong. nt

[Tripmann]

25. What I get from the article.....

....is that theres no evidence of it being illegally used.

If I murdered my wife, kept investigators (in this case journalists) away from the crime scene, and force fed the prosecutors (in this case the media) only my version of events, it doesn't make what I did less illegal, or NOT ILLEGAL. It just makes me one hell of a killer.

[ohio2007]

26. Who to believe? Red Cross or Hamas?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=246178&mesg_id=246178

media smoke screens

[Indenturedebtor]

37. But Hamas is so noble and honest. All they want to do is to obliterate Israel

Hell I bet they would launch flower bouquets if they only had the right launcher for them.

The Red Cross is clearly under the evil influence of those dirty jews! :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

50. Not really. The effects of WP on civilians has been reported widely.

So, unless people like Anderson Cooper are in the tank for Hamas, Israel has been busted.

[iconicgnom]

28. Wonderful what the word "legal" means, nowadays.

[bdamomma]

42. let them show the victims of what white phosphorous can do before they say it was

NOT used illegally.

[bdamomma]

44. information on White phosphorous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)

[ohio2007]

51. Gaza militants fire phosphorus shell at Israel

Gaza militants fire phosphorus shell at Israel

Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday fired their first phosphorus shell into Israel, which exploded in an open area in the Eshkol area in the western Negev.
No injuries or damage were reported.


The phosphorus shell came as Gaza militants fired at least 16 rockets at southern Israel throughout the day Wednesday, causing no casualties.

White phosphorus is not considered a chemical weapon. Militaries are
permitted under laws of warfare to use it in artillery shells, bombs and
rockets to create smoke screens to hide troop movements as well as bright bursts in the air to illuminate battlefields at night.

However, the substance can cause serious burns if it touches the skin and can spark fires on the ground.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055472.html
Can always say it was actually IDF training with WP and

blame the usual suspects

[azurnoir]

52. Doesn't strike you as odd that an exploding

WP shell would cause no damage, where did it explode in the middle of a concrete football field and it would leave chemical residue wouldn't it?
But thanks I said in an earlier post that this would be lapped up and well here we are.

[ohio2007]

53. I don't doubt Hamas holds WP stores and will use them as they see fit

The posted article hints that Hamas could also use WP in ways to promote their causes.

[azurnoir]

54. OK they waited till now

but what about chemical residue smoke things like that.

[Fozzledick]

56. This is an example of the illegal use of white phosphorus

Used as a weapon, and aimed at civilians.

[Idealism]

60. That made me laugh, thanks for posting that.

Blaming the victim is nothing new to Israel, but now lets fabricate stories about our opposition! Bush held a meeting to discuss strategies of lying to your population?

[Tripmann]

63. Just getting reports...

...of what is believed to be israeli fired white phosphorous shells hitting the UN aid building.....

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Gaza-Israel-Continues-Air-Strikes-But-Hamas-Agrees-To-Outlines-Of-Truce-Deal-In-Egypt/Article/200901315203713?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15203713_Gaza%3A_Israel_Continues_Air_Strikes_But_Hamas_Agrees_To_Outlines_Of_Truce_Deal_In_Egypt

[chucktaylor]

64. ICRC: Israel's use of white phosphorus not illegal

GENEVA – The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally.

The comments came after a human rights organization accused the Jewish state of using the incendiary agent, which ignites when it strikes the skin and burns straight through or until it is cut off from oxygen. It can cause horrific injuries.

The International Committee of the Red Cross urged Israel to exercise "extreme caution" in using the incendiary agent, which is used to illuminate targets at night or create a smoke screen for day attacks, said Peter Herby, the head of the organization's mines-arms unit.

"In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used," Herby told The Associated Press. "But it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way."

[cali]

65. they don't have evidence that Israel is using it illegally.

In any case, whether or not it's legal, that doesn't justify its use. Of course if Israel hadn't launched this attack, they wouldn't be using WP at all.