Can we compile a list of reasons why 9/11 was LIHOP?

[King Coal]

I would find a refresher useful.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. What tipped me off was Bush's reaction to the news:

unlike every other person in the U.S., he wasn't totally shocked to hear that two planes had crashed into the World Trade Center. The video clearly shows him reacting to Andrew Card's whisper as if he had been told nothing more serious than "Your lights are on in the parking lot."

[Lone Pawn]

22. He was shocked. You can read it in his face.

He was completely, utterly, mindsmashed shocked. He had no fucking idea what to do. He sat there, his posture echoing the fetal position, glancing around helplessly. He was trapped, deer-in-headlights. He couldn't move. He was in *shock.* That's what shock looks like. It's not what horror looks like, it's not what terror looks like, it's not what resolve looks like, it's not what any emotion humans have looks like. It's what shock--complete absence of emotion and thought--looks like.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. No air defense that day.

[FreedomAngel82]

5. You should check out

http://www.reopen911.org There's tons of stuff on there. Plus Bush was flying around in air force one for two hours and claimed he was under an attack but wasn't and then went from base to base for some reason. Cheney was hiding in a basement and there was no leadership. Don't forget the bombs.

[bullimiami]

3. the simplest and most obvious reason

is that bushco is not incompetent. bush himself is a moron but while the rest are devious, uncaring, untruthful and destructive they know exactly what they are doing and why.

these are very experienced people they put in defense and intelligence but they are true-believing idealogues.

they lihop. there is no other reasonable explaination.

[Al-CIAda]

4. Coincidental 'war-games', The non-response of NORAD and lack of def of Pen

The non-response of NORAD and lack of defense of the Pentagon.
Testimony of Sentor Dayton and an interview with Dr. Bowman (Lt. Col. Ret. USAF) by Micheal Kane. He discusses the war games planned that very morning at the exact time the event occured.
Powerful 15 min....must see imho

http://innworldreport.net/video/2004-08-04/dayton.html

[rainy]

6. New world at any cost. Governments have in the past

faked terrorist attacks to futher their agenda. Now is the beat time for the neo-cons to take over. Control of the elections sealed it for them. Now, with 9-11 they can do whatever they want.

[lonestarnot]

7. The dude who is over the FAA Terrorist Plan Coordinator's

first day on the job that day....Can't think of his title at the moment. He admitted that he did "nothing" when questioned in Senate hrgs.

[ixion]

8. the physics and chemistry suspension of disbelief required

This is what occurred to me on the day that it happened.

Simply put, jet fuel will not melt commercial grade steel;
and,

Buildings do not naturally collapse on themselves when they topple. The chances of one doing this are astronomical, the chances of two doing so within an hour of each other, well, it simply wouldn't happen that way.

[Lone Pawn]

11. But the problem, you see, is that it did.

And every engineer who's looked at it since has gone, "Yeah, you know, it didn't look like it would, but we didn't take X, Y, and Z into account, so it really does make sense that it did. Too bad we didn't think of that 30 years ago."

[lonestarnot]

32. Osama allowed to go free.

[Lone Pawn]

63. That's irrelevant to the collapse.

And we didn't go after him because Bush doesn't actually care about the war on terror. No argument.

[Zuni]

12. so what did make the building collapse on itself?

Two buildings did collapse on themselves after steel melted in the top floors, causing a chain reaction of falling debris which had a domino effect. You can see it happen in every video of the day.

There was no bomb planted in the basement. What happened has been shown to have been feasibile by many eingineers, including some on DU

[FreedomAngel82]

31. There were bombs

Click and watch this video. Listen to what the guy says at the end.
http://reopen911.org/video/collapse.mov

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CornField]

27. "Pull it."

Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish the Solomon Bros. building, or WTC 7, late in the afternoon of Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001.

This admission appeared in a PBS documentary originally aired in Sept. of 2002 entitled "America Rebuilds". Mr Silverstein's comments came after FEMA and the Society of Civil Engineers conducted an extensive and costly investigation into the curious collapse of WTC 7. The study specifically concluded that the building had collapsed as a result of the inferno within, sparked, apparently, by debris falling from the crumbling North Tower.

In the documentary Silverstein makes the following statement;

"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

[Lone Pawn]

73. There we go. Thanks for posting it.

[Maine-i-acs]

9. Condi: "We never dreamed they'd fly planes into buildings!"

We knew they'd hijack, and we needed it to set the agenda.
We got 50+ warnings about AQ, some mentioning hijacking. But we didn't expect OBL to throw the extra little monkey wrench into things.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. PNAC's desire for a "new Pearl Harbor" to move its agenda forward

[Lone Pawn]

14. But if there wasn't 9/11, PNAC wouldn't have a dime's worth of power now.

It's natural selection. Works in biology, works in political theory.

Since 9/11 happened, PNAC gained power, since they were the ones best suited to capitalize on it. That argument reminds me of someone saying "Mammals must have created the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs, since that was what they needed to be able to take over the Earth!" No. It is true that without mass extinction of dinosaurs, mammals could not have taken over. But that does not imply that the mammals created the asteroid. It just means that they were in position to gain.

[BlueEyedSon]

19. Motive and opportunity.

Just establishing motive.

To expand on your analogy, what if the mammals were in charge of asteroid flight paths and defending Earth from errant asteroids?

Further, mammals had previously issued position papers describing how they would capitalize on a global catastrophe. After the asteroid hit, they tied themselves in logical knots denying they had anything to do with the Asteroid and the circumstances that allowed it to hit the Earth with such devastating effects.... going so far as to say "we never even imagined that an asteroid could hit the Earth!"

Yeah.

[Lone Pawn]

62. Unconvincing.

Motive and opportunity? Your 'opportunity' is a pretty damn big assumption--in fact, it's more or less your conclusion. "They could do it." Why could they pull off such a preposterously large conspiracy? "They did it." How do you know it was them? "They could do it."

Secondly, as for position papers: the position papers were WHY PNAC was able to sieze complete power after 9/11. Entirely. They had a plan for how to "defend" America against a long-term war on the mideast. And everything was happening the way PNAC said it would, and everything was in place for PNAC to do what it predicted. It would be special if, say, PNAC was the only policy group in Washington. But there are literally hundreds of groups, each offering predictions and solutions. A certain group's predictions were right, and the conditions were right for them to make their solutions, so they were given free reign to make the solutions. I see nothing surprising about this.

And PNAC did not say they 'never imagined.' The administration did to cover their asses about what they missed. The CIA is not PNAC. The FBI and NSA are not PNAC. The FAA is not PNAC. Even the Cabinet was not PNAC for even a few weeks after 9/11. PNAC never claimed to have not imagined it would come. Our intelligence agencies did. There's quite a difference.

[ashmanonar]

61. that's comparing apples and oranges.

the attack on teh two towers wasn't a natural disaster (as an asteroid would be) it was an intentional act by rather undefined (and still unproven) humans whose agenda was unclear but strangely in coincidence with PNAC.

PNAC was in the perfect position to benefit from this attack, (motive) and there were national security exercises and the mysterious absence of air defense (opportunity).

seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Lone Pawn]

65. That's circular reasoning.

"It isn't the case that it was an event that happened outside of our control because it was an intentional act that happened under our control."

Well then. I'm certainly convinced :eyes:

[ashmanonar]

68. so what you call circular reasoning is just disagreeing with you?

since i didn't actually say what you said in this post...

you used the analogy of mammals causing the asteroid hit that ended the mesozoic...which is patently false and is comparing one thing (the end of the dinosaurs) to another completely different thing that has no relation to the analogy you used (lihop). that's like me saying that the mount st. helens eruption in 1980 was a terrorist attack.

tell me this: even using occam's razor, what's the simplest explanation for this happening? that the government is incompetent, (and didn't have the information ahead of time, which is false; didn't have the reaction forces in the area, also false?) or complicit? there really isn't any other explanation. nothing else can prove what happened. so would you rather have a negligent government, or a complicit government?

[Lone Pawn]

71. Okay, we'll use Occam's Razor.

Which is simpler?

1. The government was caught flat-footed by an attack that should have been forseen. Due to bureaucratic incompetence and failure to communicate between agencies, the puzzle pieces that existed among literally thousands of false leads and red herrings were not assembled. Every independent expert save a few anonymous posters on the internet agrees.

2. A massive conspiracy requiring thousands of complicit members in the US and every nation with an intelligence agency with not a single leak, with a government willing to fake four terrorist attacks but yet not willing to plant a single barrel of WMD in Iraq when its reputation and hence ability to continue its war against the Mideast lies on finding said weapons. Every independent expert save a few anonymous posters on the internet disagrees.

Well then. I can clearly see how 2 is much more believable.

And you misunderstand the point of the comparison. I was just pointing out that the fact that the group in power right now gained benefit from a previous event does not mean the group created the event. There are hundreds of policy groups in Washington. Every high-level pol belongs to several. One of them is bound to be right. That one will likely be catapulted into power, along with the people in it. Duh.

[ashmanonar]

74. ok, fair enough.

one thing: bush is known to have received (as far as he can actually, you know, read...) the report on terrorists possibly using airplanes to attack...and yet did nothing. that's criminal negligence, at the very least. i wouldn't call that interagency communication problems, i'd call that a leadership failing. (IMPEACH! IMPEACH!)

the PNAC's involvement in this bothers me. these people wrote manifestos and papers about manufacturing/maintaining US hegemony...even going so far as to claim that a New Pearl Harbor would be needed. then, magically, voila! 4 planes were hijacked, 2 buildings fell, and our military's heart was struck: strange coincidence for people who needed a uniting "pearl harbor" to gain support for this imperialism.

and i'd say the most logical reason for not "finding" WMD's in Iraq is that there were other nations in there with us, soldiers from other militaries, and if they had seen someone planting the kind of evidence needed to "prove" that WMD's actually were in iraq, they would have blared it all over the international media.

of course, the reasoning for attacking iraq was bizarre in and of itself...ever-shifting...:banghead: and deserves its own thread.

[Lone Pawn]

76. Criminal negligence I agree with.

My personal belief is that the President is such an idiot he just didn't think "Well, this might be important."

Anyway, as regards PNAC involvement: I agree the paper is quite disquieting. But on the other hand, I believe that it was largely because of that series of papers that they gained so much power in the first place. They said "We're going to be under attack by Muslims and as such we need to turn into a police state. Now, in order to do this, we'd need to be attacked." Everyone goes "Yeah, okay." Then we were attacked by Muslims. And PNAC goes, "Well, yeah. Duh. We told you so. Now, in order to win this thing, we need to do what we said we need to do. And it just so happens that things are perfect for *our* plan, so listen to us about how to do it." A bit simpler of an explanation, I think.

I agree that had we been caught planting it would have been disastrous...but, then again, the CIA are experts at fooling people of all nationalities. I don't think it's beyond their abilities to find some sarin and bury it in the sands, then bribe a local to show the Americans.

And the reasoning is only ever-shifting because they COULDN'T find WMD. Had they gotten lucky, it would have been WMD straight through.

[ashmanonar]

79. ok..

now look carefully at this train of events...But on the other hand, I believe that it was largely because of that series of papers that they gained so much power in the first place. They said "We're going to be under attack by Muslims and as such we need to turn into a police state. Now, in order to do this, we'd need to be attacked." Everyone goes "Yeah, okay." Then we were attacked by Muslims. And PNAC goes, "Well, yeah. Duh. We told you so. Now, in order to win this thing, we need to do what we said we need to do. And it just so happens that things are perfect for *our* plan, so listen to us about how to do it."

and think for a moment: how did things work out so perfectly for them? random chance? i mean, there's a chance i'll find a bag full of money on the road, but that chance is in the millions...how is it that PNAC managed to catch such an incredible chance? something so incredible that the government "didn't know about it until afterwards..." (blatant lies..)

see, it's not the series of events that bothers me so much anymore: it's happened, we need to accept it and move on. my problem lies with the causality. how did this amazing sequence of events just happen to occur? were there motivating factors, or did this just all fall out of nowhere?

[Lone Pawn]

81. It would be surprising if PNAC were the ONLY GROUP IN WASHINGTON.

At any moment, there are literally HUNDREDS--HUNDREDS of think tanks working on predictions and plans to deal with them. Nearly every event would benefit one group or another. Big events would greatly benefit some groups and destroy others. PNAC benefitted most from this. No problem. It very well could have been some other group that we'd all be in hysterics over.

We'll take your money analogy. Say I drop a bag of money on the ground. The odds that you'll pick it up are very small. But yet if you do pick it up--say, you happened to be right-place-right-time--I wouldn't claim that you had somehow cheated. If you hadn't been right-place-right-time, someone else would have. And just as if PNAC hadn't gotten the advantage, there would have been another think tank in Washington that had been a little bit further off the mark, or a little less influential in spreading their opinions, and they would have been able to claw their way in charge of our foreign policy. It's a bit like the lottery--there are thousands of players, the odds that any given person will win are astronomical, but someone *will* win.

Lottery's another good example. The odds that all the Powerball balls will fall in place the right way are very small. One could look at the news report after a win and say, "What are the odds that 6 balls out of 100 will fall into place the exact same right way with the exact same 6 balls? Surely that person cheated." But it would be stupid, because with all the players, somebody will win. And they'll be the only ones who will get publicity.

PNAC caught the chance through a mixture of intelligence and blind luck. And--I need to emphisize this--there are hundreds of groups doing the same right now. Say China were to suddenly declare war on America. I bet you anything that there's a group of Sinophobic professors, pundits, and politicians who have been claiming this will happen for five years. And I bet that they'll be all the rage in Washington until the Next Big Thing comes along. And, if they're conservative, I'll bet that we'll form conspiracy theories involving them and China colluding--because how on Earth else could they have predicted it?

[ashmanonar]

84. *bows*

:toast:

[Pockets]

13. I'm new here, what's LIHOP mean?

If LIHOP means a conspiracy, I got 2 reasons that are all my own:

1) It happened on 911 which is U.S. lingo for emergency. I'm not a numerologist by any means, so don't get me wrong. No other date has as much significance. Whoever planned 911 wanted to congeal Americans, not destroy us.

2) The Bin Laden tape just happened to be 'captured' bringing a resolution to our bewilderment over who must have done it. As if everyone just happens videotape their conversations, and keep those videotaped conversations in a drawer somewhere they can be seized, a few days before Christmas, no less, so that our prescribed sense moral is not altered.

[CottonBear]

17. Let it happen on purpose

See also: MIHOP: Make it happen on purpose.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Lone Pawn]

18. Neither work.

LIHOP means Let It Happen On Purpose, by the way.

Now, 9/11 for emergency is unlikely, though possible. And quite a few dates have more significance. July Four. December Twenty-Five. Election Day. New Year's Day. Hell, even Columbus Day would make more sense. But supposing it was for '9-1-1.' Why does that mean it wasn't AQ? A terrible event on a day whose spoken name puts people on edge...wouldn't that make sense?

Bin Laden does videotape. He videotapes everything. He then sends these out to lieutenants and propaganda outlets. By the way, Bin Laden was mentioned as the likely source of the attacks on CNN on 9/11. Our intel agencies had a giant "Oh, shit." moment when it happened. They immediately knew it was a terrorist attack, and Al Qaida is the largest, most well-financed anti-American terror group in the world. They had attacked us several times before, and had once attempted to take down the WTC with explosives--and failed. They were the obvious culprits.

[HamdenRice]

24. Yeah except bin laden is suddenly really fat and dark on the tape

Here is the bin laden who "confessed" vs the bin lade we all know and hate:

[FreedomAngel82]

35. They're two different people

Notice how different htey are. The teeth, the smile, beard, skin color. I don't think BinLaden could go THAT dark in the sun. Especially when he's hiding in caves.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. CNN had an interview

on their website where BinLaden claimed he didn't do 9/11 and didn't know about it. Also you're right about BinLaden's video's. In the past they were always very crackly with reception and he always had a gun around him and at least two guards. In the one that was shown in November there was no gun around him and he used the hand he was opposite of (I believe he's left handed). Here's the CNN article about BinLaden. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/
Also on the video they showed in November they only showed about a paragraph of it and left out tons of other stuff.

[Pockets]

41. 9/11 vs 911

I have no more retort on your explanation for Bin Laden's videotape Christmas present.

But regarding the date, you outlined my own point. If terrorists wanted to hurt the U.S. they would have chosen a holiday (which I know isn’t common for terrorists but anyway). But by planning the disaster for 9/11, it reinforces the psyche of American who are supposed to associate 911 with emergencies. This date would be used by a mastermind that would want to control us through fear, but not destroy our sense of normality.

[BlueEyedSon]

49. They needed the operation to be a success. Near-empty planes

help insure that. Tuesday AM fits the bill.
Also, amateur pilots need good visibility.
A fixed chosen date would not be optimal.

[Pockets]

54. I understand that, however....

I understand terrorists tend no to pick holidays, and I understand wanting to pick a near-empty plane....

BUT!

That doesn't address the point, why they chose 911. There must have been at least 250 other off peak times they might have traveled. Coincidence? Again, I'm not a numerologist -- no other date would have aroused my suspicion. I even acknowledge Bin Laden might have chosen the date for his own reasons. But I'm surprised nobody else questions why a government issued and security related number-for-a-date what used, and that now the U.S. is all government security focused.

[RBHam]

56. Why did they pick September 11th? Just lucky?

They were JUST LUCKY to pick a day when the Pentagon, NORAD and the FAA were all involved monitoring WAR GAMES...in fact, one of these excercises simulated a plane crashing into the Pentagon...

WOW! What a COINCIDENCE!!!

Does anuyone get it yet?

Pentagon Acknowledges Four Wargames
In Progress on 9/11


" enhanced our ability to respond, given that NORAD didn't have the overall responsibility for responding to the attacks that day."
-- Pentagon Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Richard Myers, 3/11/05


March 17, 2005
Dear friends,
Cynthia McKinney is a brave congresswoman from Georgia who has had knowledge of the 9/11 cover-up almost since that tragic day. She is in close contact with 9/11 researcher and former Los Angeles cop Mike Ruppert. Ruppert's well-researched book Crossing the Rubicon goes into great detail about the four wargames which were in progress on 9/11 and how they hampered the military's ability to respond to the attacks. You may not have previously known that a significant part of the US military was involved in wargames at the very time of the 9/11 attacks. The media to this day has somehow failed to report this "detail."

In a Congressional hearing last week, Pentagon Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Richard Myers acknowledged the wargames, but claims the military did not have overall responsibility for responding to the attacks. If this is the case, one might ask what responsibility they did have. Why have these wargames and their impact on the 9/11 response not been discussed in the media and other public forums? For other important questions as yet unaddressed regarding 9/11, see http://www.WantToKnow.info/9-11cover-up10pg

Below is the transcript of Congresswoman McKinney's questioning of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and General Myers in a recorded House of Representatives Committee meeting. To watch video coverage of the questioning (free Real Player required), click on the link provided below and scroll down past the transcript of the hearing. The Pentagon's missing trillions are also acknowledged and discussed in this hearing.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/050317wargames911

[Lone Pawn]

59. Why not? Their purpose wasn't to "hurt" us, it was to frighten us.

In case you weren't aware, the purpose of terrorism IS to control people through fear--in this case, bin Laden's goals were to make Americans so afraid that they withdrew from the Middle East and left it to its own devices.

[RBHam]

60. Yeah, like after Pear Harbour...

Those Japs sure scared us then!

Worked like a charm!

[Lone Pawn]

64. The intent of Pearl Harbor was different.

It was to make the US *unable* to fight a sea war against Japan. Had the carriers been at port, they would have succeeded. And I won't get into a WW2 conspiracy argument.

Had AQ pulled off several more mainland US attacks, they might actually have succeeded in their plan. In a way, they did, because US troops are no longer in Saudi Arabia, and the apostate infidel Saddam Hussein is out of power--and it's all because of AQ's attack.

[Pockets]

66. Sorry to keep repeating myself,

but you still haven't disprove my own personal mini-conspiracy regarding 9/11 vs. 911. I know, it's impossible to prove or disprove, but I'll say it again: 911 is a U.S. government imposed number that Americans are expected to have mentally embedded. If the U.S. government wanted to more easily control its citizens, I believe that for psychological reasons, that would be the one date to choose.

[Lone Pawn]

67. Yes. And if Al Qaeda wanted to more easily control

US citizens, for the same psychological reasons, that would be the one date to choose. And that is the purpose of terrorism: to control the citizenry of a foreign nation. And Al Qaeda has gotten nearly everything it wanted--it got US troops out of Saudi Arabia, it got Saddam Hussein's government out of Iraq, massive US deficit spending fueled by the military (how did we beat the Soviet Union again?) and it may have started the World War IV that AQ is pushing for. All because Al Qaeda made US citizens alarmed.

[Pockets]

75. Thats what GWB wanted too

Massive spending on defense, defeating Saddam, and to control citizens with fear.... oh and don't forget the oil.

As to pulling troops out of SA, this is not something I was aware of, and I'm not sure that it's significant since the middle east in general is now saturated with U.S. troops, and we are possibly on the way to westernizing the entire region.

Bin Laden himself surely hasn't achieved much since it resulted in Afghanistan and the Tali ban being taken over by the U.S.

I could be wrong, but I see the Bush dynasty far out-benefiting AQ.

[Lone Pawn]

77. The middle east in general is saturated with troops, yes,

but each day anti-Americanism grows. US troops were in SA at the request of the Saudi government. They're in Iraq as an occupying power. Whereas once it was officially-recognized US presence, now it's an illegal display of power. We're possibly on the way to Westernizing the ME. But we're possibly on the way to creating a backlash the likes of which have never been seen before, and we're quite possibly on the way to creating the cataclysmic World War IV out of which a new, revitalized religious phoenix-states rise.

Bin Laden held as much to gain as the Bushes did--more, even. He was hoping that Afghanistan and Iraq would embroil us in a decade-long war as it happened with the Soviets. He talked repeatedly of that happening. And even if we can make the case that Bush benefitted from 9/11 MORE than OBL did, OBL certainly had reason to believe making the attack would be in his best interest.

And Afghanistan did not greatly change with US presence. Afghanistan was a warlord-held nation when we invaded. It still is. We just own Kabul.

[ragin_acadian]

78. oh definately

indoctrinate with catch phrases: "the terror attacks of 3/25" doesn't sound quite so catchy....furthermore, i can't see anyone's eyes glazing over, then numbly nodding their head in unconscious consent as someone begins a sentence with "the events of 8/19/01 forever changed America...yaddayaddayadda"

so you are absolutely right. the "terrist agressers" picked quite a handy and memorable phrase to use to further their agenda. you get quite a pavlovian reaction when you use 9/11 in a sentence....could be talking about ham sandwiches, or the price of plywood...but hell, you just won the argument....9/11. 9/11. 9/11.

the effect it has on us is too friggen convenient to be picked at random by bin laden. i'm thinking MIHOP.

[Lone Pawn]

82. And you think bin Laden is a stupid man?

He's a fucking genius. You don't win a war against Russia using horses and stolen guns unless you're a genius. You don't single-handedly create a globe-spanning struggle against the world's most powerful nation unless you're a genius. And, if you're a genius, you don't just leap into the most brazen, most cataclysmic attack ever perpetuated by a private citizen unless you know what the fuck you're doing.

But beside that, if it had been on August 12th, we'd have 8/12 burned into our minds just like 9/11.

[ragin_acadian]

85. hell, bin laden is our best creation.

trained by the CIA during poppy bush's tenure as director. he's not a stupid man, he and HW probably found a common ground (maybe through Adnan Kashoggi, other Saudis or Mujahadeen) and may have had this planned before Clinton ever ran against Bush or Dole. (Operation Northwoods, anyone)

This conservative resurgence isn't just a coinkidink running parallel with the advent of terrorism on our own soil. IMO it was conducted in the same way that the Japanese conduct business: first: design a thirty year plan. second: find the best people to implement it. third: get started when you are absolutely sure of success.

now, as far as bin laden, and brazen cataclysmic attacks - no one sympathizes with him, he is supposedly "hunted" (yeaahhh, right), and the attack hasn't added any legitimacy to whatever he intended to accomplish. for a "fucking genius" (your words) he's pretty much a failure.

there have been no more attacks, but we do get the occasional video of a bin laden look-alike when shrubs poll numbers drop.

so for a "fucking genius" bin laden sure has lost everything. and bush sure has gained a lot.

so really, who knows what the fuck they are doing?

[Lone Pawn]

86. LOL. OBL a failure? By what means?

He's engineered the world's most influential NGO single-handedly. He enjoys a broad base of popular support through nearly the entire Muslim world--even if his supporters are the minority across the mideast, they are quite numerous. And I suppose if you call massive US deficit spending, two wars the US looks to be stuck in for quite some time, an ever-rising swell of anti-Americanism, a US withdrawal from Saudi Arabia, and the removal of the secularist Saddam Hussein 'nothing', then yes, 9/11 accomplished nothing.

And if you call the deaths of over 3000 people who have died in terror attacks SINCE 9/12 and the 1500 US soldiers who have died at the hands of Jihadis 'no more attacks,' then yes, there have been no more terror attacks.

And as we're stuck in Iraq, more and more Arabs growing angry at US presence, and as the Great Lebanese Freedom Propaganda Coup was quietly undone by the Syrian government, and as it appears that Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon are going to coalesce into a Shi'a power bloc--the Saudis' worst fear--as our ill-thought-out alliance with Pakistan further destabilizes that Indo-pakistani situation, and as China moves on Taiwan and North Korea grows more brazen, both seeing the full limitations of our armed forces, and as day by day we grow more economically dependant on the Chinese, and as Europe, having had enough of our unilateralism, threatens increased tariffs and prepares to sell arms tech to China--yes, I suppose that OBL has failed in his quest to set in motion the dethroning of America.

:banghead:

[ragin_acadian]

90. dethroning america?

while our jobs are being shipped overseas, other countries are issuing trade sanctions, credit card companies get the legislature we voted for to regulate their industry against us(instead of the credit card companies doing it themselves), americans are losing out, but not CEO's and not corporations. bechtel, halliburton, monsanto, etc. are still making plenty of money. so is general electric, and all the other defense contractors. so really, all bin laden has done, is screw the future of 90% of america, and since that is the republican agenda in the first place, i'm going to say that the two were probably in collusion, assuming that bin laden isn't just a bought and paid tool of the republicans, which is pretty much the truth.

i'm not sure the 1500 americans that have died in iraq were killed by terrorists/jihadists. that has certainly been the media spin...that and isn't everyone glad saddam is gone. but since we've killed 100,000 iraqi's, obliterated fallujah and a couple of other cities, and there are an estimated 200,000 insurgents on the ground to combat us - 200,000 people that are rising up against us, and couldn't rise up against saddam? so was saddam as bad as our corporate masters would lead us to believe? apparently we are worse, since we got their asses off the couch and down to the swap meet to get an AK.

but you do have a good point about iran, iraq, syria, and lebanon. sort of. if they form an anti-american coalition able to field armies, then that is everything corporate america and their republican lackies are looking for. defending saudi sovereignty with more expensively obsolete cold war armies and weapons, bloated defense budgets, bloated defense contractors, magnetic support the troops bumper stickers and corporate news patriotic soundbites of our glorious armies of liberation, plenty of hotdogs and coca-cola on the fourth of july, consume or the terrorists win, never mind that you can't get a job. the jobless disenfranchised youth of our country enlisting to see the world through the sights of an m-16. yep, osama is an evil genius all right. he accomplished everything bush and the corporate warlords were hoping for.

[clem_c_rock]

80. Obviously another CNNMSNBCABCCBS sucker

And then he's going to jump to the next topic of the day:

Iraq was a failure of our intelligence community.

The next topic:

The GOP won the elections fair and square.

When the next Oil rich/strategically beneficial country is invaded he will be arguing how the intelligence community failed us again.

[Lone Pawn]

87. If I watched any television, then yes.

However, since I don't, and since I get news primarily from BBC, Xinhua, and al Jazeera, and since I subscribe and read fully the Economist and the journal Foreign Affairs, I think your claim of my ignorant parroting is ill-founded. I'm not bragging that such makes me an expert, I'm just saying I'm not a product of the MSM.

First topic. Iraq was a failure of our intelligence community and our administration. I believe that our administration thought that WMD existed, yes. However, that's obviously not why we invaded. They overhyped the threat, and pretended as if it was a threat--Iraq was NOT a threat. But we claimed it was, because "We wish to form a power-projection base in the mideast and establish a free-market puppet-state from which we we will create a new Mideast of vassal states" doesn't play well. If you think the fact that we lied about WMD is surprising or new and different, you haven't been paying very good attention for the last 50 years. The war was a terrible idea, but I'm not exactly angry the administration lied about it. Presidents have been lying about reasons to seize land from foreign nations since the Mexican-American War, and kings since antiquity.

Second topic. There is no proof the GOP engaged in outright theft, though they hardly played 'fair.' I'm not going to get into this argument.

Third topic. We're not invading another country any time soon, unless you think Bob Valuesvoter and Peggy Soccermom will vote for Senator Suit and his plan to draft little Jimmy to die for nothing.

[clem_c_rock]

88. I must say you have quite a lot of faith

It's amazing someone at this point would actually say they did not outright and blatently lie. When a moron could have spent 10 minutes on Google and found out the Niger claims were fake, the PNAC publishes a document in 2000 calling for the invasion and occupation of Iraq regardless of the existance of Saddam Hussein, the same group whose been calling for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein for over 10 years now- it's pretty much easily said this was a lie.

Paying good attention for the last 50 years - how bout this - lets go back nearly 100 years to when the British invaded iraq w/ 600,000+ troops -all for oil - and propped up King Faisel and his puppet son for 30 years. Let's look back to when Saddam Hussien was nearly a CIA agent and was hired to kill Abdel Kassim. Let's look how the West Loved, supported, and armed Saddam at the height of his atrocities.
Let's look how they duped the public into accepting the first gulf war when they knew the world wouldn't care so much that Kuwait was going to be invaded:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p01s02-wosc.html

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer
http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/opinion/14MORR.html&OQ=exQ3D1096516800Q26enQ3D7c4d49f81781b414Q26eiQ3D5070Q26pagewantedQ3DprintQ26positionQ3DtopThe&OP=6d0ba21d/2|1l2n7pha77Bk2kSSQ3E2SQ3E24Q2027Q5BMQ60M7Q6024Q206GHHgUB-Q3F
http://hnn.us/articles/1066.html

These people (PNAC) are not stupid. They will stop at nothing to manipulate the public into accepting all of their insane agendas.

Come on man, the history of the West and Iraq is entirely a history of manipulation and lies.

And about, 911 -it's not just crackpots like me who are highly suspicious: http://innworldreport.net/video/2004-08-04/dayton.html

It's amazing how some people will get lied to 20 consecutive times and still fight tooth and nail that the 21st story is the truth. Pathetic.

[RBHam]

15. The truth is so easy to find...

There is a reason the Corporate Media go out of their way to avoid even mentioning the name Daniel Hopsicker...

Larry King didn't interview Mohammad Atta's Floridian mistress, but Mr. Hopsicker did...

Poor Larry will never get the chance now, though...

The woman, Amanda Keller, has "disappeared"...

http://madcowprod.com/

[LunaC]

16. The Big Picture

The whole thing is spelled out in the link in my sig line. It's a whole series of events taken in totality that spells out MIHOP to me.

[RBHam]

23. It can't be anything else.

Once it clicks in...

there is no other conclusion.

follow the money.

who benefits?

whose agenda is being fulfilled?

[Lone Pawn]

72. But someone's agenda will *always* be fulfilled.

Hell, today it's sunny and warm out. Clearly the guys renting bikes down at the navy pier benefit from this. But do I blame them for this weather? Clearly not. That would be stupid.

[CornField]

21. It took under 20 minutes for the military to intercept a golfer's plane

When golfer Payne Stewart's plane made only a partial turn (when a much larger turn was indicated on its flight plan) military planes were immediately diverted from training to intercept. (Contrary to what was stated after 9-11, military planes often take off without weapons on board to intercept both private and commercial flights.)

Once initial contact was made and it was understood that the plane might pose a risk to people on the ground, more military pilots from Florida, Oklahoma and North Dakota (with weapons loaded) took turns tracking the plane, until it eventually ran out of fuel and crashed into a non-populated part of South Dakota.

That is standard procedure by both the FAA and DOD and it isn't just limited to this one incident. I believe there were at least 60 incidents of military intercepts in 2001 alone (prior to 9-11).

Further, based on the NORAD press release of Sept. 18, 2001, the two USAF F-15 fighters ordered to intercept UA-175 and the two or three USAF F-16 fighters ordered to intercept AA-77 were flying at only 25.8% and 27.4% of their top speed. (This information was first reported by Scott Shuger -- who died in a scuba accident in June 2002.)

[BlueEyedSon]

25. Bingo

[Make7]

89. Eastern Daylight Time vs. Central Daylight Time

From http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm:

... According to ATC radio transmissions, the flight departed MCO about 0919 EDT bound for DAL. At 0921:46 EDT, the flight contacted the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.

At 0921:51 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 260. N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "two six zero bravo alpha." At 0923:16 EDT, the controller cleared N47BA direct to Cross City and then direct to DAL. N47BA acknowledged the clearance. At 0926:48 EDT, N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change.

At 0927:10 EDT, N47BA called the Jacksonville ARTCC controller and stated that the flight was climbing through an altitude of FL 230. At 0927:13 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 390. At 0927:18 EDT, N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "three nine zero bravo alpha." This was the last known radio transmission from the airplane. The sound of the cabin altitude aural warning was not heard on the ATC recording of this transmission.

At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT, a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA. About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA. There was no visible damage to the airplane, and he did not see ice accumulation on the exterior of the airplane. Both engines were running, and the rotating beacon was on. He stated that he could not see inside the passenger section of the airplane because the windows seemed to be dark. Further, he stated that the entire right cockpit windshield was opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside. He also indicated that the left cockpit windshield was opaque, although several sections of the center of the windshield seemed to be only thinly covered by condensation or ice; a small rectangular section of the windshield was clear, with only a small section of the glare shield visible through this area. He did not see any flight control movement. About 1012 CDT, he concluded his inspection of N47BA and proceeded to Scott AFB, Illinois.

About 1113 CDT, two Oklahoma ANG F-16s with the identification "TULSA 13 flight" were vectored to intercept the accident airplane by the Minneapolis ARTCC. The TULSA 13 lead pilot reported to the Minneapolis ARTCC controller that he could not see any movement in the cockpit. About 1125 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot reported that the windshield was dark and that he could not tell if the windshield was iced.

About 1133 CDT, a TULSA 13 airplane maneuvered in front of the accident airplane, and the pilot reported, "we're not seeing anything inside, could be just a dark cockpit though...he is not reacting, moving or anything like that he should be able to have seen us by now."

About 1138 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot stated, "my wingman is going to make a final pass and then we are going to head back to the tanker." The TULSA 13 wingman reported, "we did not get close enough to see any icing on the window due to our configuration...we did get up behind him but did not see anything." About 1139 CDT, TULSA 13 flight departed for the tanker.

About 1150 CDT, two North Dakota ANG F-16s with the identification "NODAK 32 flight" were vectored to intercept N47BA. (TULSA 13 flight had returned from refueling, and both TULSA 13 and NODAK 32 flights maneuvered in close proximity to N47BA.) About 1157 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot reported, "we've got two visuals on it. It's looking like the cockpit window is iced over and there's no displacement in any of the control surfaces as far as the ailerons or trims." About 1201 CDT, TULSA 13 flight returned to the tanker again.

At 1210:41 CDT, the sound of an engine winding down, followed by sounds similar to a stickshaker and an autopilot disconnect, can be heard on N47BA's cockpit voice recorder (CVR), which recorded the final 30 minutes of cruise flight. The CVR also captured the continuous activation of the cabin altitude aural warning, which ceased at 1212:26 CDT. At 1211:01 CDT, ATC radar indicated that N47BA began a right turn and descent. One NODAK 32 airplane remained to the west, while one TULSA 13 airplane broke away from the tanker and followed N47BA down. At 1211:26 CDT, the NODAK 32 lead pilot reported, "the target is descending and he is doing multiple aileron rolls, looks like he's out of control...in a severe descent, request an emergency descent to follow target." The TULSA 13 pilot reported, "It's soon to impact the ground he is in a descending spiral." ...

[NAO]

26. NORAD response on 9/11 vs NORAD responses in previous years

[NAO]

28. The Lone Gunman Pilot Episode vs. Condi Rice's no one could have imagined

See a fascinating analysis of this here:

http://www.cloakanddagger.ca/media/LONE%20GUNMEN/Killtowns.htm

View the trailer to the pilot episode, which aired on 03-04-01, six months before 9-11, here:

http://propagandamatrix.com/multimedia_priorknowledge_lonegumen.html

[FreedomAngel82]

39. Also

the "hijackers" were ammature pilot wannabe's. How could they have controlled a plane like that so perfectly? It doesn't make sense. There was also on the website 911review.org a section about the hijackers and at least one of them was still a live. He was a college student in California and about two years or so before 9/11 he had his information stolen and told the police but they never got back to him. Did anybody hear about this?

[FreedomAngel82]

44. No wonder the show never made it

It tells the truth. I wonder how many people saw this? Good way to get the truth out there though.

[BlueEyedSon]

29. Destruction and discarding (into multiple trash receptacles) of testimony

from air traffic controllers (testimony taken on cassette tape)

[RBHam]

38. provide links

F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers' Statements
http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=148

[BlueEyedSon]

45. Wow, thanks. I read it in the NY Times when it happened.

[RBHam]

51. snip from hell

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/national/06CND-TAPE.html?ex=1113364800&en=2086c87d09d1e418&ei=5070&hp

Amazing how some things just "slip through the radar" eh????

excerpt:
The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, where about 16 people met in a basement conference room known as "the Bat Cave" and passed around a microphone, each recalling his or her version of the events a few hours earlier.

But officials at the center never told higher-ups of the tape's existence,
(yeah..riggghhhht!-my ed)

and it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. official described in the report as a quality-assurance manager there

(what was his name? what was his actual position? -my ed)

That manager crushed the cassette in his hand, shredded the tape and dropped the pieces into different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.

christ almighty...

[sabra]

30. Cause the excuse for it was that our defense and intelligence sucks

despite the billions of dollars spent, and thousands who work in the various agencies, we never saw it coming...

even though:

- we had 50+ warnings
- several countries (Germany, Egypt, Israel, etc..) relayed warnings prior to 9/11
- we had suspects in custody before the event
- lots of "chatter"
- Richard Clarke said things were so "hot" that he canceled all NY staff meetings
- Ashcroft was warned about taking flights
- JEB activating Marshall Law on 9/7/01

and there is so much more...

[lonestarnot]

33. Headlining news was to be released re stolen 2000 election.

Gore won!

[RBHam]

40. yep

http://www.americanpolitics.com/2001gore.html

[FreedomAngel82]

43. Yep

They were supposed to release the info on September 12th but we know what happened.

[Lone Pawn]

69. And it was released later anyway.

Besides, there are much easier ways to shut down this kind of stuff than a massive attack. Hell, a single suicide bomber would work wonders. Even announcing his Mars Mission would have done the trick.

[lonestarnot]

36. Bushitler knew what was taking place but sat for 20 minutes

with children (for safety) while his plan went down reading "My Pet Goat!"

[RBHam]

42. everyone should see the video

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm

[lonestarnot]

46. Darn thing wouldn't work for me....have quick time...hmmm

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CornField]

48. It isn't that he sat while they finished reading -- it was the photo ops!

After the kids finished reading, Bush* and company didn't take off running. He spent several more minutes having his photograph taken!

Remember: This is after Andrew Card has already whispered in Bush*'s ear that "the nation is under attack."

Then -- when he does go to Air Force One, there are NO MILITARY ESCORTS!!! At this point he supposedly knows only two things: 1) Two planes have hit the WTC; 2) We have no clue what's going to happen next. In testimony after the fact, they said they thought that Air Force One might be a target. Yet, they took off from Florida without *any* military escort?!?

Also remember: The *only* person who can issue the order for the military to fire upon commercial aircraft is the president. (It was later confused as to who gave that order -- after the Pentagon was hit)

[ariellyn]

37. Go here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ariellyn]

55. I'll ask the Mods about your personal attack. n/t

[Cleita]

50. Get this book. The evidence is all here in one place for you

to decide for yourself:

"The Terror Timeline" by Paul Thompson.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060783389/qid=1113243522/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-0892764-6322446

The author is a DUer, I believe.

[lonestarnot]

52. Thanks Clieta...will read.

[RBHam]

53. 50 posts before the torpedo!

not even close to the record.

ah...here we are...in the basement of the DU mansion...used to be we were way down, now we have a category listing on the DU Bord page...
sort of mid-cellar...are we to again rehash the old conspiracy theories already posted here at the 9-11 forum so voluminously...

the only good this post had was in GD...

again, another person asked what LIHOP was...did you notice that?

that person would never have learned something today if this post had not been posted in GD...

i flail away at the invisible walls once more...a sad, pathetic figure...

[spooked911]

83. Keep trying!

Besides, the basement is not so bad!

[RBHam]

58. Shall we mourn this thread's death?

I shall sing it's soul to heaven...

[RBHam]

70. i sing too soon...

i am not a fat lady...

i do have to scram...

gotta get a timmy's!