Can we divide DU into tinfoil and non-tinfoil forums?

[vi5]

I'm as upset as anyone that we lost. And I think there were SOME shady goings on, but not on the level that would tip things the way they did.

I think we were motivated, I think they were just as motivated (albeit for hateful, pathetic reasons).

I think Kerry and his people ran a great campaign but mistakes were made.

I think the cable news media has a very large share of the blame and I think that we need to STOP WATCHING THEM ASA Fn'g P!!!!

I want to fight but I also want the fight to continue on beyond disputing Ohio and to figure out how to address what happened and build our party rather than letting it fracture, whither, and/or die..

I just can't look at it in a tinfoil way. I want to believe that if they people have the power and are motivated that they can overcome anything. And if I move myself into the conspiracy theorist category it seems far to vast and hopeless to fight against.

[Typecast Modulator]

1. We need to fight like crazy now, we have nothing to lose

And if that fails, recognize the many many many failures of the Democratic Party, and let it wither and die. Arise and build anew.

[cali]

2. I'll join you

Tin foil just doesn't look good on me. (good post)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. I Agree With You...

Faith based politics and creating alternate realities to explain away our challenges will lead us further into despair and electoral defeat....


We lost the presidency, house seats, and senate seats....


Obviously we are doing something wrong...


I will throw out a proposition and challenge anybody here to dispute it...

The problem with folks on the left and on the right is they only talk to people who think like themselves and get their own views shouted back at them. Consequently they think there are many more people than actually exist who share their views...

Until we embrace that immutable reality we are fucked...

Peace

Brian

[theboss]

9. You are right of course

But our biggest problem is how small our echo chamber is becoming compared to theirs. At this point, the liberal echo chamber is New York, New Jersey, New England, the west coast, South Florida, Philly, Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago. That's pretty much it.

Meanwhile, you can walk from Richmond to Florida across the Deep South to Texas, turn north across the Plains, go west and then go another 800 miles south and never leave their echo chamber.

[Omnibus]

4. Have you heard of this guy named Karl Rove?

Works for GW Bush? Not ringing a bell?

He specializes in an evil trick called "the Big Lie". See, he thinks that if you commit a crime big enough, and outrageous enough, and unbelieveable enough, some people will decry your audacity, sure, but most won't comprehend the greatness of the evil you've perpetuated and if someone mentions it, they'll start talking about conspiracy theories and tinfoil hats. I think he got the idea from this one German guy back in the mid 1900's.

So, Karl thanks you for playing into his hands, and if he DOES start any special camps in the next few years, he hopes you'll ignore them.

[vi5]

7. Oh brother...thanks Mr. 28 posts...

Feel free to fight the good fight my friend. But if you think your faith based way of looking at things is any different than the freepers, I gots news for you.

[nonconformist]

13. Mr. 28 posts seems pretty well-informed. nt

[Bridget Burke]

17. Thanks Mr/Ms 1000+ posts (how many?--profile disabled).

So, you also believe that Bush won Florida in 2000, his regime really tried to prevent 9/11 & "bad intelligence" led to that nagging problem in Iraq?

We don't need to accept every conspiracy theory advanced, but I won't deny that conspiracies happen. You are so trusting.

[theboss]

5. We have serious issues in our Party to deal with

And we get too hung up looking for votes in the seat cushions in Ohio (like we did in Florida) we are going to miss the fact that 53 million Americans like George Bush's message better than they like our message, we are going to miss the fact that Democrats currently have no shot of winning at least 24 states, that we keep bleeding seats in the Senate, that we are no closer to winning the House than we were 10 years ago, and that we don't control the governorships in most of the country.

Things are not good and they haven't been for a while. The Clinton years were a salve for a lot of ours ails because he allowed us to set the agenda. The problems were evident during his time (loss of the House and Senate, the end of the Party in the South). We can blame it all on computer voting if we want to or we can recognize the real problem at the heart of this, which is we aren't a majority party any longer.

[Kahuna]

10. Sage advice, my friend. Clinton was on to something. Gore was

on to something. The "progressive" ranks of our party rejected the formula that Clinton and Gore devised to win, insisting that the country is more liberal than it apparently is. Until we get real with what is, instead of trying to force feed what the 10% want on the 90% we will continue to lose. Clinton understood that.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. Clinton didn't have a formula. Clinton had charisma.

We've used the Clinton "formula" in 2000, 2002, and 2004. It didn't fucking work. Time for a new strategy.

[stickdog]

24. And how did the Repukes deal with this issue in the 1970's?

Did they revitalize their chances by moving to the center or by working their asses off to move the entire playing field to the right?

[Armstead2]

6. I agree

The sad fact is that our side didn;t make the case strongly enough. That's more frustrating to deal with than to believe the election was stolen. But unless we face up to the fact that we screwed up, and they were ruthlessly efficiant, we will never do what's really needed to fight on a level playing field.

[nonconformist]

19. "ruthlessly efficiant" eh? nt

[KittyWampus]

8. I Think You Are Uninformed Of The FACTS Of Voter Fraud & BBV

I think you need to feel superior by pontificating.

I think you are addicted to feeling abused and forget how to fight.

I think you just fell for the Big Lie.

[Kahuna]

12. We can discuss the "Big Lie" when DU allows normal discussion

sans second guessing, again.

[vi5]

14. Think what you like....I plan on fighting......just not the same things

that you do....I didn't pontificate. If you want to focus your energies on BBV go right ahead. I choose to focus my energies on getting better leadership in the DLC and DNC. I choose to focus my energies on building up the Obama's and weeding out the Leiberman's.

We all have our battles to fight. I was simply stating where my battles were.

[theboss]

11. By the way, you are right about Kerry's campaign

The fact that a "Liberal Senator from Massachusetts" did so well in this election is a testament to the kind of campaign they ran. It's basically going to come down to them not get 100K votes or so in Ohio. The problem is that Dem candidates are very limited as to how they can win a national election at this point.

[Q]

15. Why encourage a divide at DU?

- Who really cares how YOU look at it? Asking that DU put those who disagree with you in a separate forum is simply disgusting.

[Bridget Burke]

18. Divide & conquer.

It's an old strategy.

[Minstrel Boy]

20. thanks Q n/t

[vi5]

22. O.K. you are right. I apologize for that.....

It's the frustration and the sleeplesness talking to some degree.

I meant what I said in that I just personally can't go the conspiracy route myself, but maybe my language was a bit much.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I Think It Was A Rhetorical Question

Emotions are running high...

I haven't had a good night's sleep in three weeks...


Face it the bad guys punked us... You can't steal 3,400,000 votes...


I love DU and my fellow progressives but please don't ask me to prove a negative...


Peace

Brian

[stickdog]

21. Can we divide DU into the ostriches and the non-ostriches?

BTW, how's the weather down there?

[vi5]

25. I'm open to suggestions...

My issue with the supposed non-ostriches is that I'm not hearing any more tangible solutions from them than I did from the DLC or the DNC or any other number of groups.

If you provide them I'd be more than happy to act on them. But we've had four years to scream about BBV and we all were mobilized and it still didn't turn out.

[stickdog]

26. Did our national candidate make it an issue in any way?

No. He was as big of an ostrich as you. Because of that, we're now fucked, even though the fraud is obvious. That's why "it didn't turn out."

My answer is to keep fighting and keep shouting the truth. And keep working my ass off to elect candidates with the guts to do the same.

What's yours?