Aren't there more important issues to debate than Schiavo?

[Q]

For hell sakes...the fake journalist at White House press conferences got less coverage than this.

Can we just let this issue DIE and get on to more important things...like the Bush government killing off democracy, plundering our treasury for international corporations, raping the world's resources, war profiteering and waging needless, unprovoked wars?

PLEASE stop allowing the Bushie Republicans to frame the debate and distract attention away from their own unethical, criminal behavior.

[adwon]

1. Like steroids in baseball?

Sorry, couldn't resist :P

[Q]

2. You're exactly right...

Republicans bring up one bogus issue after another...not just to please their frothing RWing Fundie Fans...but to keep their CRIMINAL acts from getting the attention it deserves in the public forum.

[kevinmc]

3. Everyone Wants to know....

will Ben and Jen get back together?

[MemphisTiger]

4. And the Big Dawg wagged the dog...

[Steel City Slim]

5. Time To Move On

As Heart wrenching as the Terri Schaivo issue is, it is time to move on to other things.

[Q]

9. If the Democratic party had put this much effort into election fraud...

...or opposing the war...we might be in better shape as a country right now.

It's very strange that with everything going wrong with this country...Democrats choose fight this battle.

[Lorien]

11. Democrats generally react to situations and issues

they don't create them because we have never been organized enough to speak up with one voice. The repug extremists are a minority-but a very vocal, organized one. They know how to press the media's buttons, and they're relentless.I really don't know WHAT would have to happen in this country to motivate the left from reaction to action.At this point, I don't see it ever happening. :-(

[Steel City Slim]

12. The Dems Have No Focus

They've been fished in by the repubs. The repubs have focus and direction. They use these side issues as misdirection while they perform their nefarious deeds. The dems, instead of setting an agenda and following it, jump from side issue to side issue in response to the repubs misdirection.

[Al-CIAda]

17. Or exposing the PNAC, or the trutth of 9/11, or massive outsourcing

education...or how about skyrocketing HEALTHCARE COSTS???
The Dem leaders are impeccable screw-ups.

[Nite Owl]

6. Unfortunately they

may be using this case as an example of why *'s judges need to be apporved immediately and a reason to use the 'nuclear option' so this may be very important. They don't give a damn about Terri they are firing up their base to get those judges through.

[Q]

8. Nonsense...this issue may be important...but not as a national issue...

...and even the Right knows this is true.

They'll continue to bring up these RED MEAT, HOT BUTTON issues because they know the Democrats will respond and get trashed by the RWing corporate media.

We need to start learning from our mistakes.

[Q]

7. We're becoming like Pavlov's dogs...

...in that every time the Right rings a wedge issue bell...we come running to join in the fray and help them make it an issue.

Why can't we just present our side, make our case and move on? Why help the rabid RWingers keep this issue on the front page when there are so many other things that need our attention?

[Dinger]

16. Ding Ding Ding! You Hit It Dead On Q . . .

I'm serious, you've huit the nail on the head. This issue is over for me. This W-ar and bu$h's world take over dreams are at the top of my list. Just think of the recent examples of your Pavlolv theory . . .

gay marriage - brought up avoid real campaign 2004 issue - Iraq W-ar
swift liars - to avoid bu$h's desertion during a time of war
Shaivo- brought up to avoid Plame-gate, Mangate, & other "gates"

(I know there is more, but these come immediately to mind)

[candy331]

10. Yes there are more important issues but sometimes you have to

use the hand you are dealt with. Dems could take this issue and show that they are the truly compassionate conservative by repeating that THIS IS A FAMILY MATTER OVER AND OVER AT EVERY PUBLIC OPPORTUNITY. The public is overwhelmingly against what the repubs are doing and the fact that Dems can't seize the moment says a lot. What would be so hard for Dems to say " I am sorry but this is a family matter and just like you and I would want our family choices to be respected WE OWE THIS SAME RESPECT TO THIS FAMILY. This surely would put the Dems on great footing for people to know that Dems care and would not intrude in family matters for political gain.

[Q]

20. We weren't dealt a 'hand'...but a wedge issue...

...and the Democrats are once again being played like a cheap fiddle.

RWingers bark and Democrats jump.

This case will mean NOTHING but a few weeks of good press for the Republicans. Democrats will look like idiots for taking up a cause that can only benefit the Right. The GOP media won't allow any kind of truth to come out and will simply report the script that comes out of the Bush WH.

Democrats are always saying they need to 'choose their battles'. Too bad the ones they choose aren't worth fighting.

[Avalux]

13. Schiavo is one of many -

and whether you like it or not, IS representative of the unethical criminal behavior by the executive and legislative branch of the government. If the judicial system is sucessfully bypassed in this case, the door will be open for more of the same. You think things are bad now? Just wait.

[onenote]

14. actually, I don't think there are

Personal liberty is about as important as it gets and the idea that the religious right and the GOP Taliban want to find every possible way to intrude onto individual rights is way more important than the planting of some toad as a questioner in the WH Press Room.

"Its MY Life, Not the GOP's"

onenote

[Q]

18. Personal liberty?

The group of criminals in OUR white house have been screwing the Constitution of the US since 2000, the Bill of Rights is dead and you think this one case is about personal liberty?

Strange sense of priorities. Of all the things going wrong with our government...THIS is the battle Democrats choose to fight for 'personal liberty'? Why not election fraud? Why not lying this nation into war?

This is nothing more than RWingers trying to manipulate public opinion and whip their Fundie faithful into a frenzy.

Why should Democrats participate in this charade?

[onenote]

21. Because we can win folks over to our side

Far more people care about the government telling them how to live and, now, how to die, than care about whether a bunch of "furriners" are shipped off to Guantanamo to rot. Sad, but unmistakable true. We've got to get those folks to understand that the infringement of personal liberties isn't just about someone else...it could be their rights, or the rights of their parents or children. Those folks, who aren't fundies, but have just drifted over to the right because they think the right will "protect" them, are the one's we can get back as they come to realize that they aren't safe from the GOP's Jihad. Once they start thinking about it, hopefully they'll come along even further in their thinking.

The point is, like it or not, there are a lot of folks who didn't find the way the 2000 and 2004 elections were conducted, and the way the war on terra is being conducted, particularly scary. The Schiavo case is the case that they can relate to that just might scare them into realizing what a bunch of crazies are running (and ruining) our country.

onenote

[Q]

25. If LYING THIS COUNTRY INTO WAR didn't scare them...

...what makes you think the Schiavo case will?

I understand what you're suggesting...but if these 'folks' can't see the problem with election fraud and illegal wars... they certainly won't understand the implications of this case.

[Malva Zebrina]

15. I don't mean to hijack this thread with more of what is apparently

annoying, but I do think the implications of this issue go far beyond that of the drama of this case, with all it's trimmings.

I just want to post this comment by Juan Cole and that is all I will say here.

it does have serious implications that go beyond the brohaha.

<snip>slim fundamentalists use a provision of Islamic law called "bringing to account" (hisba). As Al-Ahram weekly notes, "Hisba signifies a case filed by an individual on behalf of society when the plaintiff feels that great harm has been done to religion." Hisba is a medieval idea that had all be lapsed when the fundamentalists brought it back in the 1970s and 1980s.

In this practice, any individual can use the courts to intervene in the private lives of others. Among the more famous cases of such interference is that of Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid in Egypt. A respected modern scholar of Koranic studies, Abu Zaid argued that, contrary to medieval interpretations of Islamic law, women and men should receive equal inheritance shares. (Medieval Islamic law granted women only half the inheritance shares of their brothers). Abu Zaid was accused of sacrilege. Then the allegation of sacrilege was used as a basis on which the fundamentalists sought to have the courts forcibly divorce him from his wife.

<snip>

But the most frightening thing about the entire affair is that public figures like congressmen inserted themselves into the case in order to uphold religious strictures. The lawyer arguing against the husband let the cat out of the bag, as reported by the NYT: ' The lawyer, David Gibbs, also said Ms. Schiavo's religious beliefs as a Roman Catholic were being infringed because Pope John Paul II has deemed it unacceptable for Catholics to refuse food and water. "We are now in a position where a court has ordered her to disobey her church and even jeopardize her eternal soul," Mr. Gibbs said. '

In other words, the United States Congress acted in part on behalf of the Roman Catholic church. Both of these public bodies interfered in the private affairs of the Schiavos, just as the fundamentalist Egyptian, Nabih El-Wahsh, tried to interfere in the marriage of Nawal El Saadawi.

http://www.juancole.com/

[yellowcanine]

19. Nothing is more important to Bush than keeping the Bible thumpers happy.

Sad but true.

[Q]

24. So what's important to us?

Is it our job to keep them happy? Certainly we're not trying to compete for their hearts and minds?

There are millions of Americans waiting for the Democrats to get their shit together and OPPOSE the Bush Banana Republic with all their concerted might.

But all we see is Democrats rushing before the microphone to appear more 'compassionate' than the Bushies.

You would think that the death of the first amendment would be more important?

[Wilms]

22. .

[Generator]

23. Bring back Jeff Gannon!

I'll take man-whore fake journalists over the brain dead (hey with Guckert..ohh nevermind!) anyday.

[Q]

26. There was never a real investigation into the 2000 election fraud...

...9-11 or the Bush WH outing of a CIA agent. The Partisan Fake Journalist scandal went down the MEMORY HOLE as quickly as all the rest.

The corporate media has eliminated INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM and now offer only INFOTAINMENT.

The Democratic party must move into the void and make this WH accountable.

While the RWingers are distracting us with this non-issue...they're doing an end run around us and making headway on drilling in Alaska and destroying Social Security.

It wouldn't be so bad if this just happened once in a while. But this has been a continous thing for FOUR YEARS now.

[Al-CIAda]

27. The Democratic party must move into the void and make this WH accountable.

Still waiting on THAT one...pussies.

[MollyStark]

28. Let us not debate Terry S. Let us debate on whether or not to debate her.

That seems a much more sensible use of time. ;-)

[Q]

31. This isn't a 'debate about whether to debate'...

...it's yet another warning sign that Democrats have their heads up their &^&&% while the United States is going down in flames.

[knight_of_the_star]

29. This is important for other reasons

Namely that the Republican Congress managed to violate the Constitution in at least two places and that this is political gold that could buy us back both houses of Congress.

[Q]

32. Jesus...is this the best the Democratic party can do?

We've had MANY opportunities to show that the Bushie Right has violated the Constitution in dozens of places. Yet this is supposed to be the battle that 'buys us back' congress?

With strategies like this...is it any f**king wonder why the Dems are the minority party?

[lastliberalintexas]

37. No, it's not the best we can do

But it's something that Joe and Jane Sixpack can finally understand. Iran-Contra didn't take hold because people didn't understand why the president acting in violation of the Boland Amendment was as bad as it was. They had no idea that the purse strings are Constitutionally to be controlled by Congress (more specifically, the House), that the Boland Amendment forbade tax money going to the contras, the implications of us selling weapons to Iran, and didn't understand the drug connection tying some of this together.

But they understand this much- the government should not tell us what medical care we must or can't have. Just like they understood Clinton-Lewinsky, but not CIA-Plame.

It's very nice and noble that Dems tend to think so highly of the populace. Unfortunately, that's also been our undoing over the last generation.

[LuminousX]

30. Is there anything left to discuss except meta conversations about Schiavo?

[DearAbby]

33. Seems to me that the GOP is Using this case to tear up the Constitution

Guess that isn't important to you, they are using this case to rid of the judiciary branch of government...nope not important...move along nothing to see here....How is the Michael Jackson trial going?

[Q]

34. Are you pulling my leg?

You must be joking, right? I can't believe you just wrote that dribble.

This is an administration that committed election fraud and civil rights abuses in 2000 and probably in 2004...sat on their asses while America was attacked on 9-11 and THEN used it for political gain...rammed the Patriot Act down our throats, established an American Gestapo...obstructed an investigation into 9-11 and Saudi financed terrorism and then STARTED A WAR BASED ON OUTRIGHT LIES...all while the Democrats have sat on THEIR asses and allowed it to happen...


...And you have the nerve to suggest that THIS issue is more important than any of the above?

If there ever WAS a time to move on...this is it. All of the above issues remain unresolved while we piss around playing games with the RWing fundies.

[DearAbby]

35. No What I am saying is that 70-75% of the people are waking up

THIS ISSUE can be used to show the past as well as the present usurping of power. there are thousands of people today, making the same choices, and watched as they were basically called murderers.


There coup will not be complete until it is all stacked in their favor. This case is doing that. They are systematically dismantling the checks and balances of power. You saw it last Sunday, when Congress got involved in a private family issue.

But lets move along...blame DU for them not covering important issues...like we control the lapdog media????


edit spelling

[lastliberalintexas]

36. Constitutional issues ARE important

Congress acted in violation of the Constitution and passed a bill of attainder this weekend, Congress and the White House are using extraordinary powers to supercede the function of our courts, our ability to control our own bodies and medical treatment is on the line, and this is being argued as an excuse for the RW Nazis to use the nuclear option in ramming Bush's nominees onto the courts.

You don't think these are important issues?

Yes, there are issues which are equally as important which are of course being ignored by the media. But this isn't the Michael Jackson trial they've glommed onto- this is an honest to goodness REAL issue the media thought they could run with, scare up sympathy for the family, and help the repubs in their quest to kill our justice system. Pretty damned important to me anyway.

[Q]

41. You could actually read the thread...

...before you ask the same question others have asked.

It should be clear by now that my main concern IS about Constitutional issues. But you're sadly mistaken if you believe this case is anything more than a chance for some PR for the Right.

I would simply like to know where the Democratic party has been for the last four years? Isn't election fraud and wars based on lies 'Constitutional issues'? What about the first amendment and the government directly funding the church through executive orders? What about a 'free press' that have become partisan stenographers for this WH? What about 'free speech zones' or taxpayer financed WH propaganda?

The point is that 'our' party has had many chances to show that they care about the Constitution...but up until now they've been AWOL.

[Emboldened Chimp]

38. No, this is exposing republican methods and their agenda

I'm glad they did this because they've managed to piss off everyone with this nonsense, sans the small percentage of Americans who are hardcore fundamentalist freaks.

[UTUSN]

39. The Issues IS abt Shrub-govt "Killing off democracy"

Our interest in the case started off with how the scoundrelly D.C. politicians were injecting themselves into it for political gain. It REALLY kicked-up interest when they started talking of enacting legislation that violated the separation of powers, intruded into individual and family decision-making, and wreaked havoc with the end-of-life legal structure that IS IN PLACE in every state.

It can't be said often enough that the PARTICULARS OF THIS CASE are not the issues in OUR interest. That said, whenever somebody on the other side of the civil liberties part brings up scurrilous details about the participants, the details tend to come to the surface. For example, if somebody starts saying that Terri SCHIAVO is "responsive", we have to dig up links from a non-relative, independent Guardian ad Litem whose conclusions were that she is absolutely NOT responsive in ANY way--no eye contact despite the Swiftbot-type video.

As for other-issues-being-more-important, well, civil liberties and democratic principles ARE important to the overall Democratic party members. And at any given moment, we can multi-task DIFFERENT issues.

[Q]

40. If the Democratic leadership is able to 'multi-task'...

...we sure haven't seen it in the last four years. They can't seem to even single-task.

It's on the record. Democrats have stood by...and some have actually participated...as Bush has turned this country into a Banana Republic.

The Constitution has already been ripped to shreds and NOW the Dems are worried about Constitutional issues?

Sometimes I think my party is brain-dead.

[UTUSN]

43. The Dems Have Been Over a Barrel for Years about Lots of Things

Just in the SCHIAVO case, two natural constituencies are against us:

1) Advocates for the Disabled, who see this as a better-dead-than-Disabled issue. 2) The Congressional Black Caucus, who have strong religious reasons.

The traditional Catholic wing in the minorities, SHOULD be Dem but has been alienated over Choice for years.

I don't say that the Dems in Congress JUST DISCOVERED Constitutional concerns. This case bubbled up and TURNED into a Constitutional problem. Not all Dems were on board for this, were cowardly about going along. There were only SIX U.S.Reps-Dem at the press conference on Sunday: WEXLER, WASSERMAN-SHULTZ, DAVIS, WU, HOLT, AND FRANK. They were everything I admire about being a Dem---brave, compassionate, committed, articulate. There were only SIX.

We are made up of different groups: Each group has a different Number One item for their agendas, their identity item. Some of the groups have a positive antipathy for the #1 items of other groups. It's only as you go down the lists that a GENERAL consensus of what "Demcrat" is about. Dems at the borders like NAFTA, Labor doesn't, etc.

[peaches2003]

42. OTOH

This issue is getting Bush in a bind and there are advantages to having the public watch him in action. He made a fool of himself flying back to DC from Crawford Sunday and people see it was phony, he is backing an issue that the majority of the people are against, he signed a bill that is blantantly unconstitutional and against public opinion, and so far the courts are telling him and his stooges in Congress to go screw himself.

Now if they lose tonight or tomorrow there is already talk that the FL legislature or baby brother Jeb will have to take 'custody' of TS. How will that sit with the majority of the country? Might this not be a wake-up call for many as to how arrogant and truly dangerous the Bushes are and total control of all of us is their goal?

[Q]

44. I've lost all faith...

...in the Democratic leadership and much of the 'rank and file'. How many times have we heard that THIS or THAT scandal will finally put Bush in a 'bind' and expose his and the GOP's corruption? Must be dozens of times in the last 5 years.

Bush and his Cronies are INSULATED by a media that helped install him illegally into office. Just what democratic mechanism do you expect to rise up and put Bush in his place? Certainly not the media. Checks and balances haven't been in place for four years. The 'rule of law' perhaps? How about the justice department? Or the RWing Federalist courts?

Many Democrats just don't seem to realize that the time to press Constitutional issues has come and gone. They had their chance when elections were stolen, Blacks were disenfranchised and wars were waged for greed and revenge.

Don't you actually have to have Constitutional protections in place to enforce the Constitution? The media and Democrats gave or let Bush assume too much power and all they have left is whining about how the RWingers are abusing their power.

There will be no 'wake up call'. Or haven't you been paying attention for the last four or so years?

[Q]

45. Looks like the media frenzy is almost at an end...

...and nothing was gained or lost by either party. Well...that's not quite true: the Bushie Right was able to distract attention away from it's unethical, criminal behavior for a short time.

There will be another sensational story to replace this one next week...and the week after that.

[Discord]

46. I'm just waiting for the next

right-wing "terrorist" attack.

[Wilms]

47. .