Public won't put up with another 10 year meat grinder like Vietnam War.

[European Socialist]

Parents are steering their kids away from the military and a draft would end the war within weeks. Bush needs to show some progress soon. They have had two years to train the Iraqi's-and that should be enough time-if the goal is possible.

[paineinthearse]

1. If things continue to slide downhill, he is more likely to

raise the fear level by artificial or real means.

Look what the rethugs did last weekend to draw attention away from the 2 year anniversary.

[skylarmae]

2. I wonder - seems like the 'public' has been putting up with plenty

from this lying sack of bushit called georgie porgie!!! But we can always HOPE.

[tom_paine]

6. Exactly. The primary characteristics of Imperial Amerikan Subjects

circa 2005

1) Apathy
2) Obediance
3) Lack of questioning
4) Lack of critical thinking skills
5) Apathetic opbediance

I also hope I am wrong, but I have seen little to indicate that, when things get bad (and they will), the Imperial Subjects of Amerika aren't going to continue their (our) new tradition of apathetic obedience and unquestioning obedience, won't follow Government Infoganda and start going "full blown Soviet/Nazi" in accordance with what they see and are told to see on TV.

I hope I am wrong about it, and that the liberty-loving inner nature of Americans is unchanged from back when we helped beat Hitler.

But I see NOTHING to indicated that is the case.

[yellowcanine]

3. They are going to recruit in other countries - serve in Iraq and become a

U.S. citizen. This is the idea of that lunatic Max Boot.

[leveymg]

9. Actually that one goes back to the Roman Empire

Of course, they also slaughtered living people on Fox News . . . er, in the Colloseum.

NASCAR, the NFL and WWF are for liberal pansies. Live, televised war is real Red State entertainment!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

4. Wesley Clark will rescue the American Empire's morale when needed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1673378&mesg_id=1673378

He's really a progressive hippie who trained the US military, didn't you know?

[tom_paine]

7. Will Wes be our Vespasian? Is that what you are driving at?

Possibly. I still hold out hope that he is an Old School American.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

10. I think he was being sarcastic. n/t

[JohnOneillsMemory]

14. 'Old World American' is as scary as 'neocon.' Clarkies don't get that.

Clarkies are now RED-BAITING me as a "Marxist radical" for wanting no part of another war criminal as savior from the current war criminals.
I'd expect that at freerepublic.com but not here.

(FrenchieCat, last time I put up refutations to YOUR points you ignored them, too. I've stayed up all night in debates over Clark. I'm not losing sleep over it anymore so don't whip me as as hit-and-run poster, ok?)

Wesley Clark and Bill Clinton violated the Posse Comitatus Act, War Powers Act, and Geneva Conventions.

I don't want Democrats to do that anymore than Republicans, GOT IT?

Slap a 'D' on his resume and deliver verbal flowers to the hopeful while ignoring the past evidence. That's how American Fascism has worked for decades and Clarkies prove it.

Clarkies, like Bushies, are so convinced of their guy's sainthood that his critics must be insane or the anti-christ, right?

Clarkies say: "But they're 'Democrats' so it doesn't count! They mean well, unlike Republicans."

Start here:
War Crimes Law Applies to U.S. Too, a letter from former Nuremberg War Crimes prosecutor Walter J. Rockler to the Chicago Tribune (5/23/99)
http://www.zmag.org/crisescurevts/nurletter.htm

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1)
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

Much more here:
http://www.fair.org/international/yugoslavia.html

Clark specialized in training and strategy and used this at the Waco Branch Davidian stand-off and massacre in 1993:


http://www.apfn.org/apfn/clark.htm
>snip<

"Early in the siege, "Operation Trojan Horse" became a popular destination for special forces officers both from around the United States and from its closest ally, the UK. They came to observe the effectiveness of various high tech devices and tactics that were being tested against the Branch Davidians. Source: London Sunday Times, March 21, 1993: "FBI brings out secret electronic weapons as Waco Siege drags on" You can see a photocopy of the original article at:

The raid was on February 28. The London Times article ran on March 21. It's noteworthy that Waco became a focus for US and UK special forces officers so quickly. The 3/21 London Times report states that "observer teams from the American Delta Force and British SAS have *already* visited Waco." (Emphasis mine.) Organizing groups of officers to make a field trip normally takes far more lead time than a couple of weeks. This is the military, not a group of freewheeling bohemians who can pile in a van and travel across the country, or the globe, on a whim. Yet, there they were, with plane and hotel reservations, briefings, tours and the like, all arranged. Such organization implies pre-planning or at least very strong pre-existing relationships with Delta Force and SAS on the part of the officer in charge. It would have taken an officer with unusual connections and motivations to pull off this level of "show and tell."

By the way, the notion that Delta Force and SAS officers would make such a trip to observe the *FBI* using various secret high tech warfare devices is laughable. Who in the FBI would know how to operate them? In any event, the equipment and tactics used came from the military, not any law enforcement agency. In reality, the FBI was not in charge of the Waco siege. Its role instead was twofold: 1) to keep up fruitless negotiations with the Branch Davidians and 2) to act as the front for the real operation which was under military command and therefore entirely illegal."

>snip<

Clark's brains and verbal skills got him into training and propaganda work for the military-industrial complex. He's still doing it.

Upon retiring he ran with DARPA's John Poindexter, FEMA's James Lee Witt's corporate security consulting, and another company specializing in outsourcing industry (I've forgotten which one.)

His Lincoln's Day speech for Arkansas Republicans is a classic- His admiration for "Reagan winning the Cold War" and other propaganda memes of American Virtue mythology that leaves out all the terror of death squads, torture, destabilization, coups, starvation. And that's just in the United States!

Now he's working with NEWT GINGRICH and the HOOVER INSTITUTE on how to neutralize the UN as the PNAC plans for world hegemony are modified but not eliminated. He publicly criticizes the neocons mostly for being over ambitious and blowing the military-industrial complex's cover of 'spreading freedom.'

Some DU-ers think that his 'principles' of first buying dinner before bombing is 'liberal.' He knows how to put the bunting over the bodies to manipulate public opinion.

He still lies that Southern Command's task is 'the war on drugs.' And he STILL uses the 'few bad apples' method of promoting the School of the Americas. Unforgivable.

The only thing scarier than a stupid fascist is a smart one.

[Selatius]

5. I don't think it's in our hands

The only saving grace the corporatists could possibly hope for with staying in Iraq for as long as possible is another mass casualty terrorist attack on US soil.

It'll inspire another "rally 'round the flag" effect, and they could push whatever it is they want through Congress and the court of public opinion in the name of national security and patriotism. They did it last time with the Patriot Act and milked it for the invasion of Iraq, and I would guess they would try again if given the opportunity such as another attack.

[gratuitous]

8. A fully-informed public won't

But one that pumped up with "America's Number 1!" juvenile jingoism on the one hand and scared right down to its toenails about another terrorist attack this corrupt administration keeps ramping up every time the poll numbers sag is likely to do whatever its Republican overlords want them to do.

Look at the ginned-up Schiavo brouhaha; this doesn't affect more than four people in the country, but every media eye in the nation is fixated on Atlanta as the judicial drama plays itself out.

Kill a few thousand more soldiers and marines while maintaining support for this illegal invasion? Child's play for the mighty Republican Wurlitzer.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Training the Iraqis and getting out was never the goal.

The goal, clearly stated in the PNAC, is to establish dominance over the region. To do the they must establish the 14 PERMANENT military bases, build the largest embassy in the world in Baghdad, and from there export the war to Syria and Iran.

They just need another incident to boost enlistment, and give an excuse for starting the draft. Then some show draft trials, like the trial of Muhammad Ali, to show they mean business -- if Heath Ledger, for instance, can't get out of the draft what chance does little Johnny Jones have (not implying that Heath Ledger would attempt to avoid the draft - I don't know him or his politics, ok?). Then have the government shoot a few rioters and protesters, to let people know who they need to be afraid of.

As a diversion, let some 'coyotes' kill a few of the border watchers that are monitoring illegals coming into Arizona, and the border patrol will be augmented by a couple thousand national guard, locking down the borders -- no one gets in, no one gets out.

Don't think it can't happen.

[European Socialist]

13. You may be right about keeping a presence in Iraq was the plan,

but not with this level of violence.

[EVDebs]

12. Not according to Sen John McCain as quoted on CNN !

Bob Herbert's "Heads in the sand" article spells it out nicely:

http://www.spectrumz.com/z/fair_use/2004/09_04.html

""When asked this week on CNN how long the U.S. military is likely to remain in Iraq, Senator John McCain replied "probably" 10 or 20 years. "That's not so bad," he said, adding, "We've been in Korea for 50 years. We've been in West Germany for 50 years."

Reporters have come to expect candor from Senator McCain, and in this case he didn't disappoint. But there weren't any speakers mounting the podium at the Republican National Convention to hammer home the message that G.I.'s would be in Iraq for a decade or two.

That's not the understanding most Americans had when this wretched war was sold to them, and it's not the view most Americans hold now.""


At around $100 billion per year, the Repubs think this is a deal...