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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:28 PM
Original message
Poll question: Who makes the better populist?
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:28 PM by Radical Activist
Who has the best populist routine going out of the major Democrats? I think a populist message is a great way to win over voters, but there's more than one style of populism.
Please name someone if your answer is "other."
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. One question?
If Dean is qualified as a millionaire in your poll, why does it not apply to Edwards?

Anyway, my choice goes to Feingold.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Good Point! Please don't do what Republicans do.
Loaded language is insulting.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. There's a lot more populist appeal for someone
who started out in a poor or middle class family and earned their millions. That's the supposed American Dream, so people like that. Its kind of hard to pull off a populist message when you come from a privileged background.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. On this criteria, I would choose Kucinich!
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:41 PM by Mass
His background makes Edwards look privileged. In addition, you are using exactly the argument the GOP used to say that Gonzales should be confirmed. I rejected it then and still reject it now.

This said, I dont agree with your basis at all, and from what I see, Dean has an understanding of the poor and middle class that is at least as good as Edwards.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I don't think there's much comparison
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:48 PM by Radical Activist
to the way Edwards made class, race and poverty issues central to his campaign, and Dean who rarely talked about those issue in such a frank way. A universal healthcare plan and some slogans about "you have the power" don't a populist make. There's simply no compairson at all.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. You must be joking
and I was not even a Dean supporter. Race a central issue of the campaign for Edwards? Lucky that CMB and Sharpton were there or I dont think we would have heard about race or poverty except as cartoon characters.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. I saw Edwards talk about race in Iowa and New Hampshire
where the audiences were 100% white or close to it. He did it frequently.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You mean it was part of his stump speech.
When did he come with something more spontaneous about that?

He had a great stump speech, I grant you that. The problem is that when he spoke on his own, these themes were not there.
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
84. Edwards has committed himself to poverty issues
That is what his center at UNC is about -- continuing his campaign to make sure that we eliminate the reality of the working poor. As for race, the chair of Edwards campaign was a long time African American friend, a civil rights lawyer The treasurer of his campaign was also African-American. The chief of staff in his Senate office was an African-American woman. He talked about race, and what's more, unlike any other 2004 campaign other than Sharpton's, he didn't just talk the talk.

So when you say "when he spoke on his own", what talk of his are you referring to? Where did you hear him? (I'm guessing the answer is "no where.")
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
85. Sorry - dup
Edited on Tue Mar-29-05 04:11 PM by DemDogs
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
88. Dean most certainly DID talk race and class and poverty.
He was nearly hung in effigy for doing so, in fact. Don't you recall his "we Democrats have to reach the redneck with a confederate flag and a gun rack in his pick up truck" line (NOTE: Dean was a tad more subtle than that, that quote reflects my synopsis of it).
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dean lives a very modest lifestyle, so he will inherit 2 million when
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:31 PM by Melodybe
his mother passes away, doesn't make him pro-rich, pro-tax cuts. I think that your poll is kind of misleading.

Edwards has over 30 million why did you leave that out?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Dean is a New England Millionaire. That's a fact.
There is absolutely nothing misleading about that.
I will restate that its much easier for someone who started out from a middle class or poor background and made millions to make a populist appeal. Its much more difficult for someone who came from a privileged background to do that. That's why Edwards' populist message sounds more genuine when he talks about poverty than a vague "power to the people" message.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Howard Dean invited ordinary people into the "power-structure"
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:33 PM by patrice
of the Democrat Party. I'd say that's pretty populist. In fact, I'd say it is the MOST populist strategy there is, way beyond getting people all jazzed up with populist ideas, but no mechanism for action. AND it is a smart counter to the influence of churches.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I can agree with this statement.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:41 PM by Clark2008
But, in so far as ANY of these four listed are "populist," I simply don't see it. I guess of the four it would be Dennis. He came from NOTHING, but his background doesn't translate well in many red states (although, I'll say it again - I love the man - I'm just making an observation based on his background with my red-state brethern).
All the others live and work in power circles none of us will ever see, but you're right that Dean invites ordinary people in.
However, I didn't vote, because I simply don't see any of them as populist, in the sense of what I grew up knowing the word to mean. And Tennessee, by golly, is the HOME of populist politicians (all-be-it we've swayed VERY far from that model in recent years with Bill :scared: Frist - but, hell, even Lamar Alexander wore the plaid shirt when he ran for governor).

Edited to add some praise for Denny.
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WLKjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
64. Your right
I don't get why some people don't see this honeypot and take advantage of it. It's exactly the way I would run a campaign.

You can't expect change by not listening to the voices of those who it affects and making them part of the process. It puts a since of pride into people and makes them want to help you even more.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. John Edwards in a Southern populist?
Funny, I'm Southern and I know very few millionaires.

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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. well, he is Southern
.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. True - and he won't let you forget it.
;)
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seahawky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
81. It's the New South baby
Why put down Edwards for being wealthy. He comes from a family of mill workers and worked his way to where he is today. It is the New South. We sure have had a lot southern presidents lately. Carter, Clinton, King George I, King George II; Gore ran, Edwards ran. Looks like Gringridge will run and Edwards run in 2008. Get the New South is a live.
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. Edwards made money after he learned populist values
He could have done what other people
aboard the yacht" do and pull up the ladder. That is not what he did. That means he represents the populist point of view AND the American Dream in one person. Pretty good package, I think.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Hard To Say
I think Edwards speaks most eloquently about the situation, but others are perhaps more "true" to populist principles.

For example, Feingold consistently votes against pay raises for Senators.

Dean does live very modestly, but I don't think judging his actions as governor of Vermont are necessarily an accurate representation of the whole rest of the nation.

And Kucinich has definately railed against the corporate interests, but something in his delivery is lacking.
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. One of the most recent candidates to run as a Populist was
David Duke. I certainly wouldn't recommend him though.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Larouche too
If you had read his flyers without knowing who he was, you would have thought he was the real thing.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. wrong place
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:50 PM by Mass
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. bwahahaha... at least until you get to the part
where folks with AIDS should be quarantined on an island...

and the Queen of England is tied to drug running...

and - your choice of extreme and tinfoily sentiment.

and that he was convicted of fraud (taking credit card numbers of donors and then ringing up more charges on those cards/accounts...)

I know that some resonated with his criticism of the war and of bush corporate cronyism - but when one scratched barely beneath the veneer, something far from populism is easily found.

Personally - I think Wellstone did the populism thing quite well.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. Sure Wellstone was a great populist
and Larouche is definitively not a populist.

However, I am not sure Wellstone cared about the labels. He cared about the people.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. and that - is the crux of it
:D

Wellstone cared about people...

What a loss we all suffered. :(
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
51. Wellstone was the best.
He could have been President.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
49. Or George Bush.
Yes, Bush is one of the most elite and privileged men in America and his down home folksy approach was a hugely fake act. But it worked.
Its the Democrats fault for not nominating someone who would expose Bush's act as fraudulent and make a genuine populist appeal. Of course, it would have been difficult for Kerry or Dean to do that since they came from similarly wealthy families.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Reverse snobism??
I have background relatively similar to Edwards (except for the millions) and honestly, I grew very much irritated by his personnae. I dont think he is a populist more than anybody else.

But I find highly irritating this tendency to dismiss people because of where they were born. It is wrong to dismiss somebody because he is born poor, it is also wrong to dismiss somebody because he is born rich. This is total demagogy.

BTW, should we have elected Nixon over Kennedy by your criteria? Should we dismiss the Kennedy family because they are rich? Should we not have elected FDR as president? You have people who care and people who dont care? The rest is not important for me.

Is Gonzales good because he is born poor?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. I won't dismiss someone who is born into wealth.
I did support Kerry in the primary and hold FDR in high regard. However, I will be skeptical when they try to play populist. So will many voters.

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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
74. Some where else some one recommended you define what you mean
by populism. As I see it, it is an appeal to the common people to protect them from the elite. The problem is, like everything else, we have allowed the GOP to define our Senators and Party leaders as the elite. It is true they charge our side with class warfare for what they say, while they conduct class warfare with what they do. The Kennedy family is very wealthy, yet they have stood up for the poor throughout. I feel that by slighting Dean and Kerry you may be feeding into the same spin the GOP has put on the Kennedys. this is one of the ways they have been successful in portraying our leaders this way. Unfortunately they have evolved the election into a high stakes game where only the wealthy can play. It has reached the point where some consider it arrogant for any one else to think they are entitled to play.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. Do people know the difference between being born into privilege
and making it big despite being born into a poor or middle class family?

That's my final answer to Dean supporters who can't come to grips with the fact that new englanders born into wealth are not known for being good populists.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. So that's why you didn't put Kerry as a choice?
I disagree with your premise - Dean has done more to get people involved than any of your other choices.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I'm thinking back to Kerry's campaign themes
and I'm not sure how he could be described as a populist. I think his complete lack of populist appeal is a major reason he lost. His background was probably part of that.

All politicians want to get their supporters involved. I'm not sure that makes Dean any different than the many other politicians who try to mobilize their supporters for their own political benefit. Dean just had a better internet organizing team and better spin.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. You're kidding me, right?
I don't recall any other candidate, even DK who was my guy, encouraging ordinary people to run for office everywhere.

If you really don't see what Dean's done to get people involved...I don't know what to say. I see it, and I'm not even a Deaniac.

Agree about Kerry, though.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Yes, Dean did things to get people involved.
But so did all the candidates who ran for President. Dean wasn't the only one to use the internet and engage people who hadn't been involved in politics before. I'm just not convinced it makes Dean more of a populist than anyone else, and I'm not convinced his motivations for doing so were different than anyone elses.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Well, I'm not here to convince you. You have a right to your views.
I disagree somewhat with them, but that's life, eh?

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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
82. He was just "priviledged" and Smirky was so folksy and down home.
Too many ignorant people in America. :cry:
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Then you forgot your biggest nemisis in your slanted poll:
Wes Clark.
He was born middle class and was dumped into the very poor class upon the death of his father. He made it to West Point of his own accord and graduated first in his class. He made less than $50,000 most of his life until he retired from the military and made investments. He and Dennis are still VERY poor compared to Edwards and Dean - and the other 2004 primary candidates. Hell, he and Dennis live in houses that look like the houses of people I actually know (Wes's is a bit bigger, but it's not out of the realm for a middle-class couple).
I'll admit I don't know much about Russ.
Maybe I should put up a poll asking how slanted your polls are in favor of those candidates you want to win? :eyes:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. I didn't include Clark because
his campaign themes didn't sound particularly populist, regardless of his personal background. At least his focus wasn't on populist ideas. He seemed to spend more time talking about his resume and foreign policy.

I don't dislike Clark. I do think he should run for something else besides President first.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
72. Well, me and tons of others fed up with politicians disagree
But, so be it.
I found him to be more populist than all of the others, excepting Dennis, that you mentioned.
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murdoch Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
67. I agree
I am not really down on Dean, but I am when he is presented as a populist and this other nonsense. Some article I read called him a "fighting moderate Democrat" and that's exactly what he is. Unlike many Democrats, he does not just lie down and let conservatives roll all over him. So there are good qualities to him.

But I cringe when I hear Dean being misrepresented. He is not at the left of the party, he is not "very liberal" and he is not a populist. He is good at riling up his supporters, who are not blue collar working class Americans frankly. One reason being his economic ideas.

Personally, I was (and still am, although he's retired) a fan of Dick Gephardt. His father was a Teamster, he always fought for labor, and he was a typical Midwestern guy who could relate to Midwestern blue collar people. He didn't get white collar yuppies living in the suburbs of big cities excited like Dean, but I liked him.

I'm not really down on Dean, although I am unhappy with the DLC economic policies that have infected so much of the party. He is good at what he does. But he is misrepresented too often.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Good comments about Dean.
Edited on Tue Mar-29-05 12:01 AM by Radical Activist
I feel the same way. I don't object to what he is as much as I object to the false impressions of what he is. I wish people would stop looking to him as a leader of the left or as a populist because he is neither.

I liked Gephardt a lot until the last few years when I felt he started caving into Bush too much. It was a shame to see that after all the good he has done.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wow, this poll isn't biased in any way.
No, no slant to this one.

:eyes:

You forget that Edwards is also rich.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. See posts 5 & 12 n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I saw them. It's still slanted to make your point.
I consider your point made and your poll biased. Sorry, just how I see it.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Yes, I'm making a point.
If Dean supporters don't like the fact that I'm mentioning that he is a New England Millionaire its probably because the idea of a New England Millionaire populist sounds silly and preposterous. But those are the facts. I do think Dean is the least populist of the four in the poll.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. How a Southern millionaire populist?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Its the whole rags-to-riches American dream thing.
Like I state in other posts. There's a big difference in the minds of a lot of people. It does matter.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. I'm only a semi-supporter, but I disagree with your conclusion.
I'm not convinced that millionaires are automatically unable to be populists. Less likely, sure.

I'm more bothered by your not mentioning that Edwards is also wealthy. That's why the poll is biased, IMHO.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. There is a huge difference in the minds of many voters
between someone born into wealth and someone who earned their wealth. It does matter to people.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. May be, but this is not necessarily populism.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Can't argue with that.
NT!

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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. In order:
1) Kucinich
2) Feingold
3) Edwards/Dean Tie

Dean and Edwards are more properly demagogues.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. wow
I would put Dean last and Kucinich first. With Feingold and Edwards I can't be sure until I hear more from Feingold.

What makes you think Edwards and Dean are demagogues?
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
59. I nearly did put Dean last
He and Edwards both have successful spiels in different areas. But I think they both use populist rhetoric and techniques to further their own ends, not because they necessarily believe in them. I tend to have a low opinion of politicians in general, and have a good sense of when someone is trying to blow smoke up my ass. Their rhetoric simply doesn't ring true.

While I don't agree with him on every issue, and he does know how to play the politician role, Dennis is the one I think actually most believes in empowering people. During the campaign, his proposals (and Sharpton's) were the only ones that actively sought to change the status quo. Feingold takes principled stances in some areas; he strikes me as at least wanting to be fair.

To put in simpler terms, Dean and Edwards are motivated largely by personal ambition, Kucinich largely by genuine social concerns, and Feingold is some combination of both. Just my opinion.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
27. Being born with money doesn't disqualify you from being a good populist.
It is your actions and drives which do. My vote goes to Russ Feingold. Probably because ATM he looks like the best person in the any of our three branches.
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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
30. Al Gore - - Remember "The People, Not The Powerful"?
Al Gore showed the way with his 2000 campaign, and work since leaving office (especially his Moveon.org speeches). Here's an OpEd of his from the 2002 election - - when Gore was still the front runner for the 2004 election and the rest of the Party was still running away from populism as fast as it could...

http://www.algore-08.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75&Itemid=123

OpEd: Broken Promises and Political Deception

By Al Gore
Originally published in the New York Times

There has always been a debate over the destiny of this nation between those who believed they were entitled to govern because of their station in life, and those who believed that the people were sovereign. That distinction remains as strong as ever today. In every race this November, the question voters must answer is, How do we make sure that political power is used for the benefit of the many, rather than the few?

(snip)

The suggestion from some in our party that we should no longer speak that truth, especially at a time like this, strikes me as bad politics and wrong in principle. This struggle between the people and the powerful was at the heart of every major domestic issue of the 2000 campaign and is still the central dynamic of politics in 2002.

(snip)

Presidents of both parties in the past have risen to meet that responsibility when the interests of the people were at risk from the unrestrained greed of the powerful. A Democratic president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, met that challenge, even though it earned him the hatred of his patrician social peers as a ``traitor to his class.'' A Republican president, Theodore Roosevelt, prevented the magnates of his day from consolidating a grip on both political and economic power.

We are at such a moment again. Uncommon power has combined with uncommon greed to create immense deceptions and losses. Millions of average Americans have been victimized. So have thousands of honest American corporations and the people who manage them, own stock in them, and depend upon them for a livelihood, for sending their children to college and for their retirement.

A major correction is needed in the course of our nation. It is needed first and foremost in the composition of the next Congress. We need a majority of men and women who will not flinch from the task at hand. For now is a time for truth and courage. And now is the time for all Americans to stand up to the powerful on behalf of the people.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. I was happy to see Gore return to his populist roots.
I think if he had done that throughout his entire campaign from the beginning it would have been more effective.

Lieberman was dead wrong for blaming that populist message for Gore's loss. People gave Gore a hard time for not endorsing Lieberman for President, but they forget that Lieberman turned his back on Gore long before that happened.
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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
69. No offense, but Gore's 2000 campaign was populist from the start
Here's a complete transcript of the announcement of his candidacy, given June 16, 1999:

http://www.algore-08.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=123

Wednesday, 16 June 1999
by Al Gore
Carthage, TN

Remarks as prepared

To my beloved family, to Tipper, to the people of Tennessee, and all of you: I see so many who have been my friends as far back as I can remember. You have always been there for me. And I begin this journey today to be there for you.

Two hundred years ago this summer, at the sunrise of America's first full century, veterans of the American Revolution came here and founded Smith County.

In their minds' eye, the very idea of what America could become was still then a barely discernible horizon. Yet they moved toward it, convinced of its fineness, certain the distance would yield a place better than they had ever known.

Each of us has our own sense of the next, finer horizon.

Near the beginning of this century, when my mother was a child in West Tennessee, a poor girl when poor girls were not supposed to dream, she looked out on a world where women could not even vote, and saw with her heart something better: a horizon of equality, where women, as well as men, could be and do their best.

I'm so glad she's here on this day.

Halfway through this century, when my father saw that thousands of his fellow Tennesseans were forced to obey Jim Crow laws, he knew America could do better. He saw a horizon in which his black and white constituents shared the same hopes in the same world. He fought against the Southern Manifesto and for voting rights. His last election was lost -- but his conscience won. He taught me all my life that that was what really counted.

I miss my dad; but I know he's here in spirit.

Early in this decade, we set out to put America back to work. And today, the gifts that surround us are great. We have built a strong and growing economy. For many of our families, it is a time of firsts: first child to go to college, first mortgage for a first home, first regular paycheck, first grandchild.

Under the policies President Clinton and I have proposed, instead of the biggest deficits in history, we now have the biggest surplus in history. Instead of quadrupling our national debt, we've seen the creation of almost 19 million new jobs. Instead of a deep recession and high unemployment, America now has our strongest economy in the history of the United States.

We remember what it was like seven years ago. And I never, ever want to go back. America always looks forward, to the next horizon.

I want to keep our prosperity going - and I know how to do it. I want to do it the right way - not by letting people fend for themselves, or hoping for crumbs of compassion, but by giving people the skills and knowledge to succeed in their own right in the next century.

And I want to extend our prosperity to the unskilled and underprivileged, to Appalachia and the Mississippi Delta, to our farms and inner cities, to our new immigrants, y tambien en las communidades.

But as important as prosperity is, there is more to long for: there is a hunger and thirst for goodness among us.

Just visible within a generation's journey is a new horizon: a 21st Century America with stronger families, stronger communities, and a more vital democracy -- in which we live and govern according to our highest American ideals.

I love this country with all my heart. I love free speech. I believe in its future. And I know that with our history as our rudder and our ideals as our compass, we can reach our new horizon.

And so today, I ask you to join with me, to keep our economy growing and to bring a new wave of fundamental change to this nation - starting with revolutionary improvements in our public schools.

I ask you to join with me, to build safe and livable communities, where we protect our environment, and restore the quality of life we deserve.

I ask for your help to strengthen family life in America. And I make you this pledge: if you entrust me with the Presidency, I will marshal its authority, its resources, and its moral leadership to fight for America's families.

With your help, I will take my own values of faith and family to the Presidency - to build an America that is not only better off, but better. And that is why today, I announce that I am a candidate for President of the United States.

Seven years ago, we needed to put America back to work -- and we did. Now we must build on that foundation. We must make family life work in America.

For the issue is not only our standard of living, but our standards in life. The measure is not merely the value of our possessions, but the values we possess.

We have closed our budget deficit. But today, we find a deficit of even greater danger, one that only seems to deepen the harder we work, and the better we do.

These are our deficits now: the time deficit in family life; the decency deficit in our common culture; the care deficit for our little ones and our elderly parents. Our families are loving but over-stretched.

These deficits cannot be measured in monthly economic tables, or even in the size of a family's paycheck.

To find them, you have to look harder - at the places our statistics do not describe:

The dinner tables that sit empty, when working parents do not have the time to share a meal with their children.

The entertainment that glorifies aggression and indecency, with lessons more vivid and overpowering than those in the classroom.

The schools where discipline is eroding - and the school hallways where guns and fear are becoming too common.

The communities where too many families hardly know their neighbors' names anymore - and find it too hard to honor an aging parent by keeping them and caring for them in the neighborhoods they love.

The crisis in the American family today knows no boundary of class or race. It is a challenge we share together, and it is one we must overcome together.

One of the best ways to help American families is by making America's public schools the finest in the world.

With your help, I will bring revolutionary improvement to our public schools. And I'll start by making high quality pre-school available to every child, in every community, all across the entire United States.

With your help, I will reduce class sizes, and establish high standards and accountability. I will make it easier for parents to save for college tuition - tax-free, and inflation-free. I will improve teacher quality, and treat teachers like professionals.

We have to have schools that instill the values and character we need in the next generation. And every school in America has to be drug-free and gun-free.

While some want to pass new protections for gun manufacturers, to shield them from lawsuits, I will work to get guns off the streets, out of the schools, and away from children and criminals.

We must also expand community policing, with more cops walking the beat. It's not enough to support the death penalty - which I do. We must also give police new crime-fighting tools to track every lead, catch every criminal, and protect every citizen.

And families deserve refuge from a culture of violence and mayhem. I will work to give parents the ability to protect their children from the marketing of cruelty and degradation.

Parents also deserve help balancing work and family. I want to bring after-school programs to every community in America. And no parent should have to risk losing a job to go to a parent-teacher conference at school, or to drive a child or an aging parent to the doctor. And I will expand the Family and Medical Leave Act, to make sure that we do just that.

Families deserve decent, affordable health care -- with good long-term care for their loved ones. Kids need their grandparents; grandparents need their grandkids. How many old people in America live in loneliness? I will make it easier for our elderly to get health care in their homes. And I will make sure that we pass the Patients' Bill of Rights.

And, I will never privatize Social Security or destroy it by diverting funds intended for Social Security. I will strengthen Social Security, not undermine Social Security.

While some want to raise the cost of Medicare and force seniors into HMO's, I will make sure that Medicare is never weakened, never looted, never taken away. I believe it is time also to help seniors pay for the prescription drugs they need. It's time we acted.

And Tipper and I want to see the day when mental illness is treated like any other illness, by every health plan in America.

And I see on the horizon an America where people with disabilities are fully respected for the abilities they have, everywhere in this land.

Responsible men and women must make their own most personal decisions based on their own consciences, not government interference. Some try to duck the issue of choice. Not me. American women must be able to make that decision for themselves. I will stand up for a woman's right to choose.

All these policy choices are important. But let's remember this: no executive action can mend a broken family. No legislation can reconnect a parent to a child, or a family to a grandparent. No proposal can change a culture that does not place family life at the top of our hierarchy of values, where it belongs.

So today, I say to every parent in America: it is our own lives we must master if we are to have the moral authority to guide our children. The ultimate outcome does not rest in the hands of any President, but with all our people - taking responsibility for themselves, and for each other. So my first promise is to ask you, each of you, to fulfill that American promise.

I want all of our communities to be working communities. We have moved more than six million people off our welfare rolls. Now we must make sure the jobs and opportunities are there, to restore self-sufficiency and self-esteem. And we must not only sustain the Earned Income Tax Credit, we must raise the minimum wage.

Families deserve work that pays. And I will fight for this simple principle: an equal day's pay for an equal day's work.

Families deserve real neighborhoods - where the word "neighbor" is not just a geographic term but a moral one. Let us become neighbors again.

We can create a true "politics of community" by working more closely with faith-based organizations to heal the afflicted, feed the hungry, and house the homeless in their own communities.

We can sustain such good, strong, livable communities - with green spaces where our children can thrive away from gangs and drugs. With smart growth, we can take back our neighborhoods from sprawl, and make the places our kids call home more than desolate stretches of structures and roads.

Some want to cut back on environmental protection and let polluters off the hook. I will never allow that to happen. The environment is our children's home too. We are in a crucial time when it comes to the health of our Earth; it is our children's most precious inheritance, without which everything else we leave them is meaningless.

We teach our kids respect by our own actions -- and also by showing respect ourselves for the God's green Earth. I will address the international challenge of global warming - with new technologies that create more jobs, and make our economy even stronger.

American families deserve a strong economy. I know what works. I will balance the budget or better -- every year. I will search out every last dime of waste and bureaucratic excess. I know how to do that. I will ask Congress for the power to reach new trade agreements, and open new markets to our goods and services -- but I will also ask for, and use, the authority to negotiate labor and environmental protections in those agreements, whenever necessary. My Administration will lay the foundation for groundbreaking economic innovation -- so that America leads the global new economy of the 21st Century.

We have an opportunity to shape a world of freedom and open markets, of rising living standards and human dignity all around the world.

But this world is still a dangerous place. We face new threats that know no borders: terrorism and rogue states, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and ancient ethnic hatreds that resurface to tear nations apart.

Make no mistake, America must lead the world. And we must always be strong enough to do so. I am proud that we refused to yield to the forces of barbarism in Kosovo. America refused to back down or look away from the face of ethnic slaughter. For an alliance of young democracies to rise up against a Medieval tyranny is the right way to end this millennium - having learned something. And let me say: President Clinton was right to stand for freedom.

I served my nation proudly in Vietnam. I have always, always been for a strong defense - above politics, above party, above partisanship.

And, I will always stand with America's veterans. And I am honored by the veterans who are standing with us here today.

They know foreign policy is no game, nor is it the proper arena for partisan politics, or easy soundbites. The world today is complex and volatile in the extreme -- more than it has ever been. You deserve a leader who has been tested in it -- who knows how to protect America, and secure peace and freedom.

Of course, as we defend democracy around the world, we must give democracy new strength and meaning here at home. We all know, inside of us, the way things are supposed to be in America. The way it is supposed to be, no one is hungry; no one is illiterate; no one faces prejudice. The way it is supposed to be, faith -- in ourselves and our mission on this Earth -- lights our steps.

But when all is said and counted, when we in our generation are finished adding up our deeds, our possessions, all our material and scientific advances, I believe we will ultimately be judged by whether we have strengthened or weakened the families that are the hope and soul of America.

I am not satisfied. Indeed, I am restless. I believe we can do better. I believe we must build on our success, not rest on it. I believe we have what it takes, not only to keep our economy strong, but also to make our values the strongest compass for our future, and the strongest force on Earth.

As we begin this new millennium, we will face many new questions. But the most important is as old as America itself. It's the one we faced at Concord and Lexington. The question at the heart of the Miracle at Philadelphia in 1776, and at every critical juncture since -- from the cliffs at Normandy to the bridge at Selma:

The question is: will we turn back now - or will we move forward?

That is the question I will put to you, the American people, in this campaign. History makes no promises to keep the good times going in the absence of our own wise choices. It is all too easy to slide backward if we are not vigilant, or if we allow ourselves to be seduced with eloquent words advancing harmful realities. No matter what language you speak:

Sin accion, las palabras no valen nada - aunque sean bonitas. Mis amigos, seguiremos, trabajando juntos, mano a mano, para el futuro de nuestras familias y nuestros ninos.

If you believe America must move forward - if you are ready for America to choose the good once more -- then let us lead this nation together. Come with me toward America's new horizon. Across that horizon stands the promise of our common values and prosperity - of strengthening every family, lifting every child, leveling every barrier, leaving no one behind.

Here, at the center of my home town, in the heart of America, in the midst of the people I love - that is the new horizon I see.

I need you for this journey. So together let us vow, in these first long days of summer, that we will work through the night, so that our children may make a clean start from the right place -- a higher place -- in a fresh century.

Thank you and may God bless you.

And God Bless America.
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smitty Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
31. populist
Before we can decide who is the best populist; we should define what is populism. How about it Radical Activist.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. That is a very long discussion.
It has been attempted many times before. There is no one definition of populist and people will disagree as to its meaning. At best you can talk about different styles of populism, which is why I listed some on this poll.

At the very least I would say populism is an appeal to the mass of people who do not hold political and economic power in society. It emphasizes group identity and their struggle against the ruling elites.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. In which case your background has no importance
It is what you do that is important.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Background is very important.
First, because its difficult for someone who was born into wealth to fully appreciate and understand how the world works for other people. That makes it difficult for them to voice a genuine populist message. Voters see through that.
Voters are also skeptical of a person who speaks against the economic elites, even though they come from that elite class. People do notice that kind of thing.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
90. By your definition FDR could be considered a popullist.
Clearly born into privilege, clearly wealthy, clearly took the side of the working man against the wealthy.

The class you were born into is not the only thing which defines you.

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kevsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
73. Webster's Online gives it one sentence:
"a believer in the rights, wisdom, or virtues of the common people"

This is actually not that far from what you describe. I find the use of the noun "believer" to be interesting. It implies that there must be a genuine sincerity in the rhetoric. I'll leave it to others to judge the relative sincerity of the four subjects in the poll.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
34. That's more like it
I was wondering if you were losing your edge with that Clark-bashing thread. I thought you might be mellowing in your old age.

I think Dean's got the best populist message because he's making it about more than just working class issues. He's definitely calling out his fellow Dems for writing off the south, and I think that actively courting the southern vote is pretty damn populist.

Kucinich is too left-wing for most of the working-class folks, and Edwards has a good populist message but I personally prefer someone a little more fiery. Edwards seemed pretty subdued, and I don't know if the situation right now calls for subdued.

I haven't heard Feingold speak, so I can't judge his populist "routine."
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I'm trying to make sure that everyone in GDP
is pissed off at me before I go back to the lounge for another month. Saying anything slightly critical of Dean and Clark is the easiest way to do that. :)

I'm also glad Dean is advocating that we make a bigger effort in the South, but I'm not sure Dean knows how to do that. I hope he supports Southern progressives instead of trying to craft the message himself. I think a 50 state effort is the best thing that could come out of Dean's term as DNC chair.

Feingold does a great job from what I've heard so far. It sounds like he has read What's the Matter With Kansas? Although I was disappointed that he backtracked somewhat because an Alabama town he talked about was insulted that he mentioned their poverty. He went back to do a tour of the city with their mayor.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. Dean and Edwards are the only two populists on that list
Dean is involved in populist activity. Dean is the clear choice on this question.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Explain why not Feingold and Kucinich?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
65. Kucinich has been a populist ALL his life.
I'm for Dean's efforts now as DNC chair, but he only became a populist during the primary. He governed for 11 years as a probusiness centrist.

It does no good to pretend he's been a populist his whole career. Welcome that he saw the light and is the better man for it today.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #65
89. Yeah, and frankly, what really sucked was that
the Dean people didn't go over to Kucinich after Dean flamed out in the primaries.

Kucinich was the only populist, progressive candidate in the race, and rather than honor that, the Deaniacs sold out and threw in with Kerry without getting any concessions from him at all.

Fat lot of good that did.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
55. Dennis Kucinich because of his record and the fact that he comes "with
no strings attached".
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Still_Loves_John Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
57. I don't really understand Howard Dean
I don't mean in general. I have to admit that, while I didn't like him in the primaries, he says some good stuff, and I've become a Dean fan. However, I don't really think he fits the description of a populist in the traditional sense. I don't really mean that as a negative thing, just more of an apples and oranges thing. Howard Dean is a great guy, but I don't think "populist" is the term that best describes him.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. I agree n/t
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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
60. John Edwards, hands down. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Thank you
Why don't you look a little harder because I did give my definition of populism.
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adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
68. Just a chuckle
New England Millionaire populist is self-contradictory. Urban liberal populist is pretty close as well.

I don't think Dean could be considered a populist because of his role as a fiscal conservative (emphasis on balanced budgets). Populists are historically advocates of statist policies and have little concern about deficits. They were also consistent advocates of expansionist, and inflationary, monetary policy.

Please don't read this as a condemnation of populism. I just wanted to make the point that it's a hard tradition to reconcile with a rigorous approach toward balancing budgets. Populists would likely not mind deficits in the abstract, but I doubt their position would extend to the current administration's policy.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
70. Kucinich is the most populist.
I don't know what you mean by "better." Kucinich has been for things like the elimination of WTO and NAFTA and for European-style health care, so if we are thinking in solely ideological terms, Kucinich is the best.

I'll add that though I voted for Kucinich, I felt like voting for Dean just because he was dissed in the poll.
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
71. I don't think I really consider any of them populists
Edwards is a one-term Senator with no real track record to judge.
Feingold is a liberal idealist.
Dean is a fighting Democrat.
Kucinich is an urban progressive/liberal.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. Is there anyone around today that you would call a populist? n/t
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Not really. I think true populism has become anachronistic
I think of populism as a philosophy that is fundamentally working class, anti-economic establishment, but also deeply rooted in traditional values and morals.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
78. Love Dean... But Edwards Has Lots Of Smarts AND
his wife Elizabeth is super smart! She can mix it up with the best and come off looking GOOD!! I was very impressed with her whenever I say her give a speech or field questions. One classy lady and I feel would be a true asset as FIRST LADY!!
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seahawky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
79. populist may prevail in 2008
Clinton ran as a populist. So should Edwards.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
80. How about Wes Clark, American populist?
He had the most progressive tax plan, for starters.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
83. You know, I should have included Jesse Jackson in this poll.
He's a better populist than all of them. All the Jesse bashers on the board today can suck it!
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newblewtoo Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
87. Interesting site on Populists
Reading this site below, I was struck by similarities to what I see going on here and in the party.

http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/populists.htm


Disclosure: I voted for Dean in the primary...and this poll. So sue me. <g>
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