Dean v. Clark: Ultimate DU smackdown!

[Radical Activist]

They're the two most popular Democratic figures on DU. Who has the bigger following? Pick your favorite!

[Runcible Spoon]

1. you're gonna get flamed!

and you deserve it! :evilgrin:

[Radical Activist]

3. hehehe

I didn't say a bad thing about either one! So what if people are using DU as a platform to cheer for their favorite leader? :shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

7. mmmhmmm..

remember our discussion on altruism and benevolence? ;)

[atommom]

2. .

:popcorn:

[XemaSab]

5. We need a new smily

a devil eating popcorn!

:evilgrin: :popcorn: :evilgrin:

[atommom]

25. Yes, we desperately need one of those!

[Up2Late]

215. I like these in combo

:popcorn:

[Ediacara]

4. I'm a Deanie and I love Clark

Why the freakin animosity!?

[Radical Activist]

8. I didn't bash either one in the poll.

They are the two most popular figures on DU and I want to see who has the biggest following. We know a lot of people joined DU over the last year or two to use it as a platform to advocate for their favorite candidate. So, I'm curious.

[Runcible Spoon]

10. uhhhh...HELLO~

Terry Schiavo has the biggest following. Get with the program! :hide:

[Radical Activist]

11. LOL oh yeah. sorry. n/t

[Sparkly]

16. I'm a Clark supporter and I admire Dean a lot

I don't know why the animosity either. :shrug:

[pkspiegel]

133. I'm a Clark Supporter, but Dean's a Good Guy Too!

Yeaahhh, why any animosity at all? The two have a lot in common and should get along well between themselves at this point in time. We should all be able to do the same.

[lyonn]

113. Agree

Both have something to say that I agree with. What's the problem? Both are carismatic and I can understand what their ideas and hope for America are. Not so of many Dems who sputter and fail to be outspoken. Don't want a Dem. who plays games. We have had them run and they lose. The public is not dumb.

[Jane Austin]

122. And I'm a Clarkie and I love Dean!

He was so much better on the talk shows than the campaign and official party spokesmen.

He said what I wanted said. :)

[BlueEyedSon]

6. Dean/ Clark was my "dream ticket"

sigh....

[lukasahero]

92. Ditto

:cry:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

9. Coming in 2008...

The Bayh-Landrieu Wars.

[Sparkly]

12. Bite your tongue!!!

[Radical Activist]

13. You think so?

I can't see either one being popular on DU.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. Do I think so?

No.

Is it totally within the realm of possibility? Yup.

[Sparkly]

29. Hey! Do not depress me.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Um...

The McKinney-Jackson-Lee Wars? :think:

[knight_of_the_star]

32. Yeah right

You mean the wars to shut them down!

[Clark2008]

40. Who?

Are those Hillary appointees?

:evilgrin:

[cosmokramer]

182. Oh, HELL NO!

Landrieu voted for ANWR drilling, and Bayh is a right of center dem who will be unable to carry Indiana in a presidential run.

NO NO NO NO NO!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

183. That's your wacky neo-Dem party.

:party:

[Clarkie1]

14. I really wish people wouldn't post things like this.

It doesn't serve any positive purpose...I can only hope this doesn't turn into a flamefest thread.

I like Dean AND Clark.

Who do I think is doing a great job as DNC chair: Dean.

Who do I think would be our best nominee for Pres. in 08': Clark.

What exactly does "who has the greater following" mean? It' not as if this is the middle of the primary season anymore. Can one be a "follower" of both Dean and Clark? If one is a follower of Dean, does that mean they don't like Clark and visa versa. I don't think so. Why must this still go on?

[Sparkly]

17. Excellent post

They're not competitors anymore.

[NYCGirl]

18. Why must this still go on?

Because Radical Activist is bored and doesn't like either Clark or Dean.

:thumbsdown:

[Radical Activist]

21. Anything to get away from Schiavomania. n/t

[NYCGirl]

22. There's this nifty little feature called the "hide thread" function.

You should try it. I'm going to use it now with this thread.

[Radical Activist]

30. haha ok

Is there a sarcasm button too because you seem pretty good at using that.

Are you really putting this thread on ignore of will it suddenly come off ignore if I post something that irritates you enough that you want to respond?

[sybil]

28. Schiavo-diversion, yes pleeeeeeeeeze

[haypops]

77. Good point

And to comment on my vote; add one for Clark and one more comment on Dean's doing a good job.

[Radical Activist]

20. Can you post anything slightly critical of Dean or Clark

without a group of people ganging up on you with insults and flame throwers? No, you can't.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

193. 2008 has started. You and others are campaigning for Clark. Your name...

You're a visible campaign for one candidate with your every post. And you know it. It's intentional. And you are busy campaigning for Clark in many threads where he is mentioned.

"It's not as if this is the middle of the primary season anymore." you wrote. REALLY? A clique of Clarkies are campaigning all over the place here. There is an obvious plan to create a candidacy going on at DU. Some of us who abhor the man's career have noticed it.

So it doesn't make sense for you to opine that compare and contrast exercises aren't useful yet. It isn't...sincere.

I "hope this doesn't turn into a flamefest thread," too.

Because when I post the war crimes charges against Clark, for instance, I get flamed relentlessly by Clarkies. Lots of venomous name-calling and discrediting tactics. Almost...professional.

Maybe it's just little ole me but I have PM's from people telling me the same thing-they get flamed by piranha-like Clarkie attacks when they criticise Clark.


oops-excuse me, it's "not the middle of the primary season." Riiiight.

[FrenchieCat]

218. Plu-ease!

The visible one man campaign is ran by you attempting to put Clark down in your every posts.

We are not a clique. We are supporters of the General. Just seems like you have a problem with that. But it's just that; YOUR PROBLEM.

Funny you should speak of "sincerity", when John O'neill was a Friend of Clark's....and you sir, are the opposite. So you should read up a little more on your namesake, cause it appears that you named yourself based on something other than facts (which never seem to get in your way anyhow).

Thanks for calling Clark supporters almost "professional". We are not, but we are so used to your professional "hits" on Clark, until many of us smell you coming a mile away and understand that there will be an attack based on bullshit sources not fitting for anyone who's named after the memory of a courageous CIA agent who was not against all of the establishment as it currently exists.

Maybe you should take a vacation and come back in the middle of primary season. I doubt that you will be missed.

[Totally Committed]

221. Go, Frenchie!

You tell him!

TC

[DemGirl7]

15. I can't decide....I like both of them the same..

[ananda]

19. I like them differently

Dean is good as DNC chair.

I'm not sure what Clark is good as... will he be the next Dem candidate for President? I'd definitely prefer him over Kerry or Clinton.

Sue

[Leilani]

23. I supported Howard Dean for DNC Chair

& I'll support Wes Clark in 2008 if he runs.

Like them both.

Maybe they are the 2 most popular because neither one is a wuss, & both speak truth to power.

And some people at DU just LOVE to stir up trouble.

[salin]

34. exactly

trying to divide folks - at this point when we need to be working together- seems counterproductive, if not worse.

[Radical Activist]

36. Some people only want to work together

If you're working for their guy. There's a lot of that on DU.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

24. Flamebait nt

[jen4clark]

26. no smackdown here

Voted for Clark but I love Dr. Dean too!! Thanks Radical Activist!

[DaveinMD]

31. Clark for President

Dean for DNC Chair. Its how we'll win.

[Clark2008]

35. As a rule, now that the primaries are over, Deanies and Clarkies

are nearly allies.
There won't be too much flaming on this thread.
There are some Deanies I know that don't like Clark - and maybe some Clarkies I know that don't like Dean (but I can't think of any).

The ultimate ice cream sundae, most will agree, is the combination of ingredients that make up the grassroots efforts of the Clarkies and the Deanies.


P.S. I was advocating Dean for DNC chair in January 2004, btw.

[Clark Bayh 2008]

102. What in the world does Dean bring to a red state independent?

I can't see what he brings to anyone unless they are in the middle of Tennessee & are pacifists who want universal health care.

Clark/Graham could have won.

[TacticalPeek]

37. My, my, how surprisingly flame free.

Could we be wised up enough to save our whupass for the R's?

That could turn the tide.

[Radical Activist]

38. Not at all.

Now that Dean won't run for President the two camps can get along. If Dean were a potential candidate it would be another story. I wouldn't read anything more than that into it.

[Clark2008]

39. But we don't even know if Clark is running.

Therefore, there is no "potential" in the candidates.

[Radical Activist]

41. You wouldn't know it by

the way a lot of his supporters on DU act. Many people assume he will run and post accordingly. I'm sure you can tell.

[Clark2008]

43. We don't assume. We hope.

There is a difference.

[Radical Activist]

58. Well then you've got a very hopeful username.

;)
Either way it involves using DU as a platform to boost a specific political figure.

[Clark2008]

72. Hmmm... I thought that was the goal of political websites.

Silly me.

And, it is a hopeful username. :)

[Sparkly]

45. Well, hope we didn't disappoint you.

Dean will be great as DNC chair as elections come up.
Clark is speaking out, lending expertising, organizing WesPAC.
Edwards is studying poverty, a huge cause connected with so many other issues.
Kerry's still a fighter in Congress, along with Kennedy, Boxer and of course Kucinich, Conyers, and My Woman Maxine Waters!

It's not all we hoped for, but it's good to have our heros and heroines -- and while The General is the one who teaches and inspires me, I'm with them all, all the way. Together, somehow, we will take this country back.

[applegrove]

42. Why "smakdown". What are we? Gladiators? Humans after humans is

not a sport. It is a necessary evil when we have to vote or face the perpetual election and 'stage-craft' of sociopaths in power.

We fight for something better.. not for the sport. Am I wrong?

[Radical Activist]

57. Not on DU.

I think its sport for most people here. Or else they use DU as a platform to promote their favorite leader.

I think it would make DU more enjoyable if there were less people whose main purpose in posting was to advocate for a specific political figure.

[Jai4WKC08]

65. Why?

How does it affect you what other people like to do at DU? Aren't there enough different forums and threads for all of us to only participate in what we particularly enjoy or get the most out of? Why is your purpose for being here, whatever that might be, more valid than mine?

And if you'd really like fewer people advocating for their favorites, why have you been starting contentious threads that are essentially designed to make people feel the need to advocate?

[Radical Activist]

118. If you look at this thread

you can see the difference it makes when people have a defensive pack mentality because they only post to promote someone. Dean supporters use the scream as a rallying cry, but you still have oversensitive people who are offended by its use here. I'm not sure how calling Clark a general is an insult but you have someone saying that too.

It makes it a more antagonistic and less enjoyable forum when you can't post anything less than glowing about someone without five or more people jumping down your throat with insults and repeating the same tired lines over and over again. It would be nice if people would just stop campaigning for someone for a little while before '08 and sit down for a discussion. For example, I didn't even say bad things about Clark except that I don't like people without elected experience running for President. Now I'm public enemy #1 with the Clark crowd. That doesn't make for a healthy forum.

The constant campaigners and defenders cause more flamefests than this poll or anything else on DU and if that point is made in this thread, then I'm happy.

[x_y_no]

121. If you really wanted a discussion ...

Why post a Clark/Dean poll thread?

Sorry, but your innocent act doesn't pass the smell test.

But the point I see being made in this thread is that Clark supporters and Dean supporters have an awful lot in common and they're not going to play your divisive game any more. That is one positive thing coming form this thread.

Bet it doesn't stop you from trying the same thing soon, though.

[Radical Activist]

126. They may be able to play together

only because Dean and Clark won't be running against eachother anytime soon, but many Dean and Clark supporters on this board still can't play nice with anyone who doesn't love their guy.
Actually, DU got friendlier when Dean became DNC chair because it ended a lot of the '08 arguments about Dean. Maybe DU would be friendlier if Clark supporters dropped it for just a little while too.

[x_y_no]

128. I play just fine with anybody ...

so long as they aren't lying about or otherwise smearing "my guy," and as long as they aren't stirring up shit. And guess who's the one trying to stir up shit in this thread?

As for dropping it, I really fail to see why I should pretend that "my guy" has fallen off the face of the Earth just because you don't like him.

[Jai4WKC08]

138. Who said calling Clark a general was insulting?

I specifically said it WASN'T insulting, but I thought I made it clear my objection was that you were defining him the way the media has, perpetuating their stereotype of the individual. Similar to the way "the scream" is used by the media to put down Dean. They are gate-keepers, and exploiters, and I don't like to see Democrats play into their hands.

You are also mischaracterizing the reaction of Clarkies to criticism of "The General" (there, I said it too; happy?). If you don't think he should run for president because he has no experience in elected office, you have every right to that opinion. You don't have a right to expect none of us will disagree. At least we, for the most part, have given reasons why we feel as we do. You seem to think that it's the very fact we bother to give facts and analysis that makes us "antagonistic."

And besides, you didn't just voice an opinion that he shouldn't do it. You did in fact "say bad things about Clark" when you used the word "arrogant," which is an attack on his character. And I seem to recall you implied that his stated positions had more to do with "ambition" than true Democratic principles (altho I may be misremembering who said what--someone implied as much).

Most Clarkies are going to disagree with most criticism of Wes Clark. I dare say all of us think he is bona fide hero and a helluva a person. Otherwise we probably wouldn't still be backing him as fervently as we do.

Furthermore, for any criticism of Clark, you will probably find at least one Clarkie who disagrees with it. Here's a news flash--we don't always agree among ourselves and no one is telling us what to think or say.

But ALL of us will jump down the throat of anyone who criticizes Clark with what we believe to be the same tired lies and smears about his character or his record. We know that there are new people to DU every day, and not all of them have heard the truth or the lies before. First impressions being important, we try patiently, some more patiently than others, to provide the correct information. If that makes DU a "less enjoyable forum" for you, well... tough shit.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

194. So you've gotten the Clarkie piranha treatment, too, hunh?

I have a long list of grievances against Clark and I get the most empty poisonous personal attacks instead of discussions as if we were enemies.

I have PMs from others thanking me for standing up to the piranha pack!

I've decided that there are professional operatives here at du carving out a candidacy for the Pentagon's boy and blasting anyone in their way.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Yes, there are authenticly supportive Clarkies and rational polite people as well. JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THEM.

And this makes me suspicious of a psy-ops war for 2008 already under way.

[Totally Committed]

195. You live in a dreamworld....

what color is the sky where you are?

TC

[sharonking21]

202. I cannot imagine why you get negative responses

but perhaps if you reflect a bit, it will hit you:

"I have a long list of grievances against Clark" . .

". . .standing up to the piranha pack . ."

". . .professional operatives here at du carving out a candidacy for the Pentagon's boy . . "

". . makes me suspicious of a psy-ops war for 2008 . ."


Karl Rove could hardly do a better whack job on using negative framing to unjustly smear someone.

But, I think most have your number . . .

[FrenchieCat]

219. Those who PM you,

Are they too afraid to speak for themselves, or is this just a story to make you look like more than a "Campaign of One".

We = you?

[lyonn]

124. Remember,

America is a democracy, we all should speak. I'm up for all ideas. Anyone who can dislodge this admin. That is what appears to be the goal of most on this site. We need a winner

[ZootSuitGringo]

44. I like Dean a lot and think he's doing a good job as DNC Chair

and I want Clark to be President in 2008 (hope he runs).

I don't want Kerry and Edwards though.

[Califooyah Operative]

46. yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggh.

sorry, I couldn't resist the bait.

[MrSlayer]

47. I'm a fan of both.

But without any disrespect to the DNC Chair I choose The General, as always.

[IndianaGreen]

48. Nice poll, but a bit unrealistic

Dean will not run because he has committed himself as DNC Chair.

Wes Clark has given no indication that he is going to run. The last I heard he was working for a corporation doing homeland security work.

[yebrent]

52. I don't think the poll was a question of 2008 nomination.

just popularity. Clark brought me into the democratic party. Dean did the same for others here. I think the poll is just an attempt to get a snapshot of DU users.

[Radical Activist]

54. Exactly.

This poll is between the two people on DU who have the biggest following to see which camp is bigger.

[Jai4WKC08]

87. Not exactly "no indication"

Clark has said he rules nothing out for 2008, but that his main focus for political activity is getting Democrats elected to Congress in 2006.

And Clark has been doing a lot more than just "for profit" work on security. Which is, btw, neither as part of corporation (it's a partnership with former Clinton FEMA director Witt and former Clinton TransSec Slater) nor strictly concerning US homeland security (they have also been involved in disaster relief in several Carribean countries, for example). But he's also been doing a helluva lot of work with the Democratic party leadership, a number of liberal think-tanks and advocacy groups, and several bipartisan organizations such as the US Institute for Peace.

[understandinglife]

49. Boxer For President, 2008

General Clark should be honored to be her VP running mate.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[sybil]

192. Senator Boxer would be honored to finish her illustrious term

as CALIFORNIA'S ACE SENATOR!

...and then hopefully run for another term. California needs Boxer doing what she does best! Besides she's too liberal to win the White House in '08 and she isn't gonna move to the center like Shrillary.

HANDS OFF BARBARA BOXER!

[jfenway]

50. I have to agree with the majority here..

I like them both.. Most Clarkies list Dean as their 2nd choice and vice versa.

J.

[ZootSuitGringo]

51. Hey, how come Edwards is not on this poll, RA?

Thought that was "your" man? Don't you want to know how popular he is?

[Radical Activist]

55. Dean and Clark have the biggest

herds on DU. I just want to see which one is bigger. There's no question that Edwards isn't as popular as either of these two.

[Totally Committed]

109. Herds?

This was a blatant attempt to start a war, and you know it. At least be honest about it.

As things stand right now, I think their "herds" should join forces. With Dean doing the reforming so badly needed on this loser Party, and Wes possibly running in 2008, we could be a formidable force for A DEMOCRATIC PARTY WIN.

As I have said, bless them both!

TC

[Totally Committed]

110. Self-delete n/t

[lyonn]

119. Herds, that's it

We need herds to get the Dems off square one. A really big herd!! And a herd for Dems in 06. So far no shinning stars for 06. Hopefully Dean is stirring up the dust for candidates since many Dems know he has clout with the grass roots party.

[ProgressiveConn]

53. Clark only if he tackles the Military Industrial Complex. If not he

shouldn't even be considered as a candidate.

[ZootSuitGringo]

59. He's the only one that could do it in these times,

and I think he could and would do much much more.

Wes Clark loves this country as opposed to loving politics. He understands how good a country we could be domestically and internationally if we just changed course. If the General went to Washington, much would change for the better. I think that he has the determination, the courage and the heart to do it.

But of course, Republicans know that as long as they can intercept him during our primaries using Democratic red herrings, nothing will change. We'll just be stuck with the same ol' same ol'.

I hope we are smarter than that, but we will just have to see. As long as we understand that the election of 2008 won't be a rerun of 1992, and therefore we do not need a 1992 second-hand clone, we'll be alright.

[Larkspur]

85. Won't happen because Clark serves the MIC

He won't tackle it. He profits from it.

[Jai4WKC08]

88. Another untrue and unprovoked attack on Clark

No reason for it. You're not doing Dean any favors, nor hurting Clark or Clarkies. Just showing your own prejudices. Why don't you give it a rest? I doubt you'll succeed in getting any of us to attack Dean in retribution, if that's your goal. Very few attacks on Dean at DU are made by Clarkies.

[Totally Committed]

141. This is the sort of attack...

that serves neither you nor the Party well at all.

Most importantly, to me at least, tt also insults General Clark. I resent it highly.

TC

[Totally Committed]

132. If he tackles the Military-Industrial Complex?

It runs the world! Aren't you tired of losing? Please... stop imposing these impossible litmus tests to Clark.

When he runs, he will be the only choice that can win against the Regressive RW Republiconservativechristians. The ONLY one...

TC

[ProgressiveConn]

187. Part of the reason we lose is because we allow

bloated and wasteful military spending to equal patriotism and security.

[Radical Activist]

56. I'm a little surprised.

During the primaries I think Dean would have won this poll. Did Clark always have this many supporters at DU or has there been an influx of Clarkites since the election?

[ZootSuitGringo]

60. I started reading up on Clark after waking up to my senses, once

the election was lost. Watching the Kerry/Edwards campaign unravel, did the trick for me.

Going back through the news archives, it's plain that we were manipulated throughout the election cycle; the primaries and the general election with polls and other media "tools". And it's starting to happen again.

Based on what I have read, I have decided to go with the most common sense person to run during these times. This is now the 21st century, not 1992. We have to keep up with the times and go for a maverick that is qualified in all the right places. 2008 will be the last true battle for the last vestige of our democracy. We cannot afford to run anyone other than a real professional Ass Kicker. So since it's going to come down to winning modern wars against the right, I'm going Clark.

And if Bush decides to start another fucked up war in 2007, as he is leaving office, just cause he can, to help out his fella GOPs, and y'all are still acting like it's 1992, I'll just shake my head and say "I told y'all so".

Not that I am superstitious, but there's an interesting piece I was reading just today:
http://digbig.com/4dark
(snip)
Still, while Chinese face reading lags far behind its ancient
Chinese cousins in terms of earning Western mainstream acceptance,
at least 18 women considered it worth examining in Jean Haner-
Dowsett's Lake Forest Park living room yesterday.

It was her former mother-in-law who introduced her to face reading
and feng shui when she married into a Chinese family 25 years ago,
and now Haner-Dowsett leads international workshops.

Chinese face reading, she says, allows someone to detect personal
qualities and foibles from another's facial features. Last fall, for
instance, it was presidential candidate Wesley Clark's strong jaw
that told her he was the only Democrat who could have won the
election.

[wyldwolf]

62. during the primaries Clark consistently WON these polls

[Jai4WKC08]

64. I think you're misremembering

Clark's been winning DU polls since late '03 or maybe very early '04.

Clark support at DU has grown steadily since the draft began in the spring of '03. Chicken or egg? Did the draft "grow" Clark support, that in turn drifted toward DU, or was did the interest exist in every group of Democrats, which is why the draft was so effective? I don't know. Would imagine some of both.

But what I do know is that the larger our numbers have grown here, the more DUers who don't like Clark have complained about us, as tho there were something unnatural about Democrats becoming politically active, especially in the six months or so before the primaries, wanting to connect with other Democrats, and joining a Democratic underground. I sort of thought that's what this place was for.

But the thing is, and perhaps what bothers some people most, we've stayed. We're still loyal to Clark. And we're still growing.

[Radical Activist]

123. I didn't remember the old poll results that well, except that

I remember Dean being very popular. Read post #118 then look at the six replies along with yours to post #56, which I don't believe was an attack or insult in any way. Then you'll see why some people might get tired of the pack of attack dogs for Dean and/or Clark.

[Jai4WKC08]

140. Not sure I understand the question...

As I hit the reply button just now, not knowing whether other replies will intervene, there are only four replies to #118. One of them is mine, but posted after you posted this one I'm replying to here. Of the remaining three, one of them is yours, and the other two are from the same poster.

So one person attacked your motives in starting this thread? And for that you find the "pack of attack dogs" make DU unenjoyable? Your feelings are that tender?

Ok, I'll admit, I'm being obtuse. I recognize that there are plenty of other posters who seem to think you are just trying to stir up shit (so I guess it doesn't matter how many replies there are to #118). In fact, I think I said essentially the same thing somewhere else along this thread.

But c'mon, RA. What else is it supposed to look like from our perspective? Nothing on DU exists in a vacuum. There's a history here of Dean/Clark wars, and sadly a couple people in the thread who've tried to ressurrect the conflict. And your history of posting hasn't exactly been kind to either Dean or Clark, or to either group of supporters. To include several of your posts in this very thread.

But IF you're being sincere is just trying to see who has the most support among DU members, then I apologize for assuming otherwise.

[Radical Activist]

145. The remark about replies

was in relation to post #56, not #118. I could have been more clear about that. Post #118 relates to why I made this poll in addition to being curious about who has more supporters.

[Jai4WKC08]

148. Oh, ok...

I agree, your #56 wasn't insulting. But it was incorrect. Dean was VERY popular at DU, and still is, but not more so than Clark. Not since toward the end of the build-up to the first 04 primaries, anyway, Or since imo.

We Clarkies have been accused repeatedly of "freeping" polls at DU and elsewhere, even tho we are each individual members here, with the entire range of length of membership and level of participation. We're a little bit (ok, a lot) sensitive to those who imply that somehow our membership here is less legitimate than those who supported other candidates. I suspect your comment that most of us are newbies (since the Nov election) tapped into that. So you got multiple replies from Clarkies, each giving slightly different perspectives based on our own experiences.

You probably know all this, but wtf. I'm on a roll.

Clark has, has always had, extremely strong grassroots. He got into the race because of a draft. And he understands that a true capability to effect change comes from the bottom up, because it does in the military too. A lot of Clark's grassroots supporters are active on-line, tho by no means all, probably because the draft started as an on-line movement. But also his campaign did a good job of growing on-line support and raising funds. As did Dean's.

Unlike much of Dean's support, we're still active on-line, altho most of us work for various political causes, to include Clark's, in RL as well. Lots of reasons for it, imo. It's partly because Clark encouraged us to work for Kerry within a couple days after he ended his campaign, so we stayed active when the dissappointment was at its worst--helped us get thru it and stay productive. And he kept at it. Good lord but we all wanted to see Bush gone.

Partly it was because Clark kept his blog going--it's still alive and well today. Altho there are literally dozens of other Clark groups and message boards that I doubt he even knows about, so maybe that wasn't so much a factor.

Partly because many (but not all) of us wanted to see Clark as Kerry's VP pick and we stuck to DU when those debates were going on. I suspect all of us were looking for Clark to have key role in a Kerry administration, and none of us liked to see the attacks made on Clark by those who wanted a different VP. And let's face it, attacks on Clark just make us hang together more strongly. Human nature is perverse that way.

Partly, since Nov, because we still have hope that a Clark '08 bid is in the offing, whereas Dean has apparently nixed the possibility of another run.

And finally, while I don't think it makes Clark more popular on DU than Dean, I believe the endurance of his support in general (no pun intended) is MOSTLY because Clark is a guy who inspires intense loyalty. Some of us were not active in politics until we joined the draft or his campaign. We trust Clark in a way we don't trust other politicians, to stand up for his principles, for the good of the nation, and for us. Because he always has. That's what people who don't like Clark don't "get." We think if more of 'em would actually listen to the guy, and learn more about him, a LOT more of 'em would.

Some people can't deal with how much support Clark has among informed and active Democrats. They refuse to believe it and assert instead that his support is not "real" but simply more "organized" (as if that were a bad thing), or only made up of bunch of pitiful computer geeks with too much time on our hands. Altho no doubt a few of us are, most of us do have lives. As you can see, in response to your #56, there are two snarky replies that attack Clarkies in just that mode. And there a million other slams we've heard, time and again, to explain away the reality of our existance.

But we do exist. And we will in 2008. And working to get Democrats elected in 2006 will only make us, and Clark, stronger. For people who really hate Clark, and there are some, that's what scares 'em the most.

[Clark2008]

73. Because Clark got in the running so late, I think it's taken a while

for people to get to know him.
Now that many more so know his stances, they have opted to support him.
Although, I'm sure there are new Clarkies members here, as well.

[JNelson6563]

79. You are clueless aren't ya?

Most Deanies I know are so busy with RL politics they don't have much time to make sure Howard wins all the meaningless polls on obscure DBs.

Julie

[Jai4WKC08]

95. Like Clarkies don't do our share with RL politics

And then some.

Who's clueless? I know.

[Totally Committed]

101. I think it's just a matter of...

people seeing the light.

JMHO... But, Clark should have been the nominee and would have won if he had been. And, I think people are seeing that now.

The Note ran a blurb on the fact that WesPAC had hundreds of thousands of hits in the last couple of weeks. Interest in Wes is way up. He has many appearances scheduled in the next few weeks.

Check out www.securingamerica.com and see for yourself.

TC

[madfloridian]

134. We don't organize to vote in polls.

Never have, still don't. There is no place where we organize to go and vote in polls. Makes a difference.

[ZootSuitGringo]

151. Read Please

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1694179&mesg_id=1695542&page=

[madfloridian]

154. I read it.

The proof is in the reality. I don't disagree there are many of you, and people at other sites know there are a lot. I did not say there were not a lot.

I just said what I said. I won't go further. This is not a contest. It should never have been a contest. It was turned into something that was ugly and petty.

Radical expressed surprise at the polls. I clarified. I could clarify more if you wish to continue. I think it would be tasteless to do so, though.

I will continue to post good things about DFA, Dean, and if I think the DNC is doing something I like or don't like, I will post about that. If people get angry at that, then they need to talk to the admins.

There is room for everyone at DU. My problem is with all the 2008 stuff when we are barely functioning as a party. I have my own concerns with all of our candidates. I hate the compromises that will have to be made, but they will be necessary.

Please don't talk to me about polls. Other blogs have requested that you not organize on the polls, so it is not just here. But that is your right to do so. It is a free country.

[ZootSuitGringo]

156. It's going to be OK.

Don't fret so.

[madfloridian]

160. If you are not fretting, you do not understand.

This is not a polling contest. It is serious stuff. Other blogs have nicely requested it stop. It does not stop.

It is not a Dean/Clark thing about polls, it is manufactured, set up. It is organized.

It solves nothing, it presents problems.

Yeah, I don't give a damn who wins the polls here. Most of our group don't even come here anymore. I don't blame them. I am stubborn enough to stay.

I don't think things will turn out ok, I am sorry. I think our country is too far gone to quibble about. Then I see at some sites, and even here that support is withheld from the party.

No, things are not ok.

[ZootSuitGringo]

161. Jeeze Louise,

I was talking about how excited you get in stating that Clark supporters organize but Dean supporters don't.

I'm not talking about the overall status of this nation.

I don't think the 2 equate, so I don't know how you can be this confused in what my sentiment was.

Just trying to get you to calm the stress out of your writing. It's almost excessive and put me on edge for no good reason, IMO.

That's all. :hi:

Anyway, try to have a nice day.

[madfloridian]

163. I hate that "stress" thing. Are we going to play that way again?

I think it would be embarrassing to have several different websites asking that it stop. I find it a little irritating that you put the blame on me. Ask Jerome at MyDD, ask Kos at Daily Kos. I know some others, but that is enough for now.

When you don't like the message, blame Madfloridian. I am quite aware I am part of the agenda, and I don't mind at all. I am so used to it.

[ZootSuitGringo]

164. Are you really that important?

Wouldn't have guessed it.

But ok. Keep stressing. Hope it helps. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

165. Now the importance thingy....next the worship.

This is what goes on, it is reality. I have read the things that have been said. It is shameful, and it is silly.

[ZootSuitGringo]

167. Was it you that said

"blame Madfloridian. I am quite aware I am part of the agenda..."

That's IS silly. Shameful? I wouldn't go that far.

Anyway, I send you my peace and love.

Hope it's better than nothing.:loveya:

[madfloridian]

173. Yes, I said that. I meant it.

No, it is not silly. It is rather sad.

[madfloridian]

166. To be frank with you....yes. I am that important to some here.

Not in a good way, but in a sad way. I just wanted to answer your snide importance remark with the truth. Yes, it is very important to a couple of people that I be diminished in the eyes of others.

[ZootSuitGringo]

169. Whatever you say,

:tinfoilhat:
I was never big on conspiracy theories that involves persons such as ourselves, who (in reality) make relatively little difference in the larger scheme of things.

But whatever makes you happy is ok with me.

May the force be with you!:headbang:

[madfloridian]

171. Hey, I am used to it. I just keep records in case.

I think it is good to know these things and be prepared. Oh, wait, you did the conspiracy thing next, I was expecting the worshop thing.

Oh, well....Peace to you as well. I have things covered. Ok?

:shrug:

[sellitman]

208. You have 1000 + posts

You must have seen all the Clarkies here before. I also believe some of them are professionals who are trying to lay the foundation for 2008. They are entitled to do that. While I'm not a Clark fan by any stretch of the imagination if he were to win the nomination I'm sure we all would line up lock-step over anyone the Repukes run. And if we don't...then we will deserve what we get.

[CarolNYC]

210. I also believe some of them are professionals....

Where does this suspicion come from? In all of my Clark experiences, from the draft days through working hard on his campaign during the primaries and so on, I've never come across any of these professionals. Do you suspect that others have professionals laying groundwork too...and what makes you think that Clark does? Do you know professionals that are here doing this for whoever?

Thanks. I'm a little new to this game, my Clark involvment being the first time I actively involved myself in politics, and so I know there's A LOT I don't know or know to suspect.

[sellitman]

211. My suspicions are founded on the quantity found only here.

I post and belong to many other blogs. They are very "vocal" here and found in quantities that I've yet to see elsewhere. I'm sure many are true believers though. Just as there are Deaniacs (me, me) and Kerry supporters too.

[CarolNYC]

212. Myabe I'm just dense...

....or worse yet, stupid, but I don't understand why that would mean anyone here is a professional. Thanks for answering, though.

[sellitman]

213. Nope...not dense and certainly not stupid.

You are a DUer so odds are against it. But...why on DU and almost nowhere's else is there found the plethera of Clarkies? Where were you all in 2004? If you are all new found supporters...what has he done since 2004 that has made the miraculous crowd change? I certainly don't know for sure but it absolutely has raised suspicions with me and others on DU.

[CarolNYC]

231. That is a very kind reply...

Thanks. But, I must say, sometimes, when it comes to politics, I feel very stupid indeed....

Anyway, thanks for your very civil explanation. I do appreciate that. I hate all of the confrontation that goes on here and I hope you’ll read what will probably become a bit of a long post here.

I think I understand a little where you’re coming from. I can speak only for myself, of course. Where was I in 2004? Mostly not here. I joined quite some time ago but rarely rarely posted and didn’t even read that much. This is a pretty overwhelming place for the uninitiated. Even now, after I’ve been navigating it for a bit, there’s so much of it I’m not familiar with and it gets pretty darn vicious sometimes and my skin is probably not thick enough to handle a lot of it. I almost gave up after some of the responses and accusations I got on the only thread I’ve ever started here….what I thought was a nice one about Dennis Kucinich and Clark.

As I said before, I was never involved in politics before I got involved in the Draft Clark movement. I’d had political “heroes” before….George McGovern (who I met when I was just a kid and who’s had a special place in my heart ever since), Robert Kennedy (who I only discovered after, sadly, he was gone but become totally engrossed by), Jerry Brown (who I almost volunteered for and did actually return to NY for a day so I could vote in the primary for) but never got involved. It was Bush that pushed me to look for a candidate. None that were out there thrilled me although I admired a couple of them. Then I found out about the draft Clark thing and started researching him and fell hook, line and sinker for the guy. I was just looking for a guy who could win and I found someone who I could truly admire and totally trust with my life and the lives of my loved ones. It was an unexpected but very fulfilling experience.

Before August 2003, I wasn’t here because I wasn’t involved at all. After August 2003 and through February 2004, I wasn’t here because I was busy keeping up with my Clark groups and busy volunteering for the campaign in any way I could, e-block phonebanking to other states, letter writing, collecting petition signatures, passing out Clark bars and literature in Times Square and other NYC locations, traveling to NH, trying to get as many people as possible to know about Clark as I could…but I was doing most of that in person, by phone, mail, face to face. And, I believed so strongly that I wanted Wes Clark to be President, that I spent just about every waking minute thinking, what can I be doing to get this guy elected? I didn’t have a lot of time for the internet. It was all I could do to keep up with the messages from the local and national Clark groups. I couldn’t even keep up with the official Clark blog.

After Feb 2004, I took a break…Then, because Wes, urged us to and because I felt the urgency of getting rid of Bush, I got involved again. I volunteered with redefeatBush as much as I could, registering voters in PA over the phone. I volunteered with ACT, phoning, taking trips to PA to canvass, passing out literature at protest marches, writing more letters. I wrote letters for the League of Conservation and to seniors with a group of Clark people who were working to get Kerry elected….and constantly thinking that every moment spent discussing things on the internet was a waste of time I could have been spending doing something, anything that might make a voter go and vote for Kerry. Traffic on the Clark groups slowed down some and I did spend some time on the Kerry Edwards boards and made some dear friends there but I would feel guilty every time I spent time there. I took days off from work and spent the last 4 days before the election in the ACT office of the small town I grew up in, reconnecting with my roots and working my butt off to get Kerry elected….No time for DU or any message board then. And for one shining moment, even though it was raining, when we came back from canvassing on election day and the polls were looking good, I and my fellow drivers and volunteers thought we’d done it.

Anyway, (and I know this is getting way too long…just don’t have time to pare it down now) after the pain of the election loss, I stayed out of things for a bit. Then, I decided to try to get used to DU, to see if I could figure it out and so I started posting more regularly here and that wasn’t until probably early this year??? I admit, I don’t post much on the other blogs but it’s not because I’m a professional….if I were, I would think I would be posting on as many blogs as possible or is DU supposed to be the only one that counts….but because I don’t really have the time to. Actually, I’m not really a very political person. To be truthful, I find so much of it so distasteful that if I didn’t have Clark making me feel guilty about not doing my part to serve my country, even if it’s just by getting involved in the political process or educating myself on the issues, I think I’d drop out of it again. Does that mean I’m not the type that’s welcome here?? I hope not…but perhaps….It’s hard to tell sometimes.

So, that’s just my story. Take from it what you will (And if you simply read this far, I thank you heartily because it’s probably more than anyone here wanted to know.) but a lot of the people I see here defending or posting about Clark I recognize from the draft or primary days. They may not have posted here but they were active and, unless they’ve really really fooled me and I’m really naïve (and I admit, I’m often too naïve), they aren’t professionals….A lot of them are folks like me, not politically inclined by nature but pushed to get involved by the dire nature of what’s going on in our country right now and inspired by someone that we believe everyone would be inspired by if they just knew him better. Maybe that type of folk is not welcome here either. :shrug:

Again, thanks for the civil discourse….Don’t know about that poll thread you started though. :P

[Tom Rinaldo]

232. DU and Clark Supporters

I agree with you that there is a higher concentration of Clark supporters at Democratic Underground than one will find most anywhere else. Certainly Clark is better known and (therefor) liked at DU than he is by the general public. Clark has substantial support at many political web and blog sites other than DU, but DU is clearly a Clark hot spot. But I know you are making the wrong leap of logic when you speculate that there is a professional operation underway for Clark here, lol.

I am not saying that you should have, but had you taken the time you would find that pretty much all of the core Clark supporters at DU have at one time or another pretty much spilled all the beans on their own political life stories. Sometimes I marvel at that, but I think it has something to do with the fact that so many of us were surprised by how much deep respect and loyalty we actually developed for Wes Clark, because many of us initially approached his candidacy from a very pragmatic stand point, thinking Clark might be an overall acceptable candidate who actually could defeat Bush, and not asking for much else beyond that at the beginning. So when we actually came to believe in Clark, we each had a story to tell about how it was that we came to strongly support a General of all things. Speaking for myself I had to overcome my own suspicions first by learning a whole lot more about Clark than most Democrats ever do before I was comfortable supporting Clark as much as I came to. And you know it is an old truth that true converts are often the most passionate in defense of their beliefs. Let me point you to a great old DU thread started by someone who just didn't get the fascination for Clark at DU. Amazingly enough the whole thread stayed civil so Clark supporters were able to open up and say what they really feel:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1548301

You will find many stories there like the one Carol just gave you, including mine. I joined DU in the Fall of 2003, but by January 2004 Clark was scoring high or winning DU polls for candidate preferences, so Clarkies on DU is not a new phenomena. It may look that way because we channeled ourselves into supporting Kerry/Edwards after the ticket was chosen. We had no time or interest in sour grapes, we wanted Bush out. We resumed talking about Clark after the November election, but many of us were always around.

Why did so much more support for Clark develop at DU compared to elsewhere? I would like to think that people who spend time at DU are more tuned in than most Democrats and that could play a part in it. I would also like to think it is because some Clark supporters here have been such excellent advocates for him that he has so much support here now, but I will suggest something simpler and more value neutral. Why was there a wildly popular Motown Sound instead of a Harlem sound in the 60's? Probably a lot of complex reasons, but at root it was because a critical mass of people came together in Detroit and then built on the synergy of their energies until it became a center for a certain kind of energy. And it was a good energy so it spread.

Some great activists who share a support for Wesley Clark found each other here at DU. I've met quite a few wonderful people online through it and many are rapidly becoming my personal friends. We know we will find each other here so in my case at least, rarely a day goes by when I don't at least check in. We share thoughts, we share information, we share news. So compared to most places in the political world, real information on Wesley Clark is almost always available on Democratic Underground even if most of the media is ignoring him. Real exposure to Wesley Clark tends to increase real support for him. I very much hope of course that the day will come when the media finds it impossible to ignore Wesley Clark, but until then perhaps it is not that difficult to understand why a place where Wesley Clark continues to be discussed is a place where he will have much more support than at the places where he is kept on permanent ignore.

[FrenchieCat]

222. Professional, My Ass!

How is that? What do you base this pronouncement on? Hot Air?

So sad to see those who should accused based on facts do so just as GOP members would.....Just cause they can.

Yours is but an opinion....and like my asshole, I have one too.

Clark supporters are not professionals. Believe it, cause it's true.

Guess that's too bad for you though. Shows Clarkies with an incredible loyalty and support of Clark. Guess that's not what you'd rather see. Well Too fucking bad.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

61. There's not even one "deleted message" here so far

what's happened to the GD Politics forum? :D

[Crunchy Frog]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.


:D

[Anarcho-Socialist]

190. Well...

:P That's for being naughty

[ICantBelieve]

63. Dean is great; Clark is great

They're both good for the Party. I'm glad we have them both.

[The Devils Advocate]

66. Hmm. Two Unrealistic Choices

Both qualified, yet both with no chance.

Sorry to all you Clark people, but he HAS NO CHANCE! Enough with his speeches and his website already. He is a nice guy, he has great positions on the issues, he gives great speeches. BUT!!! Mainstream Democrats will NEVER EVER EVER nominate a career military man to be their candidate for the top job. If Clark is going to be President, he will have to get some elected-office experience first. I suggest governor of Arkansas; that will provide a good base to move up from.

Dean will be forever haunted by the scream. The media will never let him live it down. Do you really want to sit through month after month of scream replays? It will turn the independants off so fast that liberal heads will spin.

[Clark2008]

75. Don't buy your rhetoric.

First, why does the former head of NATO need to run for any office before running for president? He's already, effectively, been a governor in his role as Supreme Allied Commander. IN fact, other than Dean and Graham, he was the only 2004 primary candidate to have executive experience.
Secondly, maybe if mainstream Dems would get their heads out of their asses, stop watching corporate media and read Clark's position papers, they would realize that he's more than a military man; thus, the frequent posting of his website. Clarkies are trying to get this message out because the corporate media won't.
Finally, Clark already has a base - just look at his following here.

Oh, and if you want to beat the Republican in the GE in 2008, you'd best be trying to find someone who will bring in new voters and that means including the red states in campaigns (50-state strategy, like Dean advocates). Having a liberal who is perceived as a moderate is the best route to making in-roads into states dominated by right-wing media (i.e. - the "red" states.)

[Jai4WKC08]

86. You may be right, but I hope not

Because if "mainstream" Democrats have that much aversion to the military, it means the Repubs are right about us, and so are the independents who are afraid to vote for Democrats in times of war of other international crisis.

Personally, I don't think typical Democrats feel that way. Might be wishful thinking on my part, but I gotta believe that it's just a vocal minority, not all of whom are even Democrats, who refuse to consider Clark because of his military background.

I do think many Democrats don't understand the military, and don't appreciate what very senior military officers do, or how they function. Especially ones with Clark's unique experiences. Hence the "stickiness" of the media meme that Clark is a one-trick pony. RA is reinforcing it here, referring to him as "The General," as if he were nothing more than just another dime-a-dozen general (for all that there's no insult inherent to the title, unlike how RA labels Dean). But I think the misunderstanding or misinformation leads some people to the idea that Clark needs experience in elected office, that he has limited knowledge of domestic issues, or that he doesn't know how to deal with subordinates who won't just follow orders. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Fwiw, I am quite sure most Republicans don't understand the military either. The RNC wants us all to believe otherwise, and to a large extent the success of their propaganda is reflected in the attitudes of those on active duty. But it's a lie and we shouldn't let them get away with it.

[LimpingLib]

67. Y-A-W-N

YYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWNNNNNNNN!

[Larkspur]

68. Your poll is an insult and this thread should be locked

You describe Clark as the General and I assume #2 on the list is Dean. If you really had respect for Dean, you would have used DNC Chairperson or Dean's name. But you decided to use a term that the Media uses to denigate DNC Chairperson Howard Dean.

At least Dean is doing good rebuilding the Dem Party. Clark is busy selfishly raking in money for himself.

[Jai4WKC08]

69. The flaming had to start somewhere, didn't it?

Bullshit, Larkspur. Clark is working very hard for the Party and for Democratic principles and goals. You either haven't been paying attention or refuse to see what's right before your eyes.

[LizW]

71. If flamebait is posted at DU and no one flames...

No offense to Radical Activist, but this whole thread is flamebait. Harmless, but still flamebait.

[RandomUser]

74. This thread was clearly intended to be flamebait

especially considering the fact that Radical Activist has a history of bashing Clark and bashing Dean equally.

[Jai4WKC08]

81. Oh, I agree

I called it "contentious" somewhere up-thread. RA was "trolling" for flames, no doubt about it, for all he claims he'd like to see less "advocacy" for specific Party leaders.

But until Larkspur, no one had bitten.

[Larkspur]

84. Just proves that Clarkies support denigrating Dean no matter how

much that pander to Dean supporters.

[Jai4WKC08]

93. Baloney. No Clarkies have denigrated Dean

Nor have we supported RA's denigrating Dean. In fact, more than a few have said they respect Dean very much and do NOT support RA's attempt to pitt us against each other.

We have defended Clark and other Clarkies tho. You are free to do the same for your guy. It is more than possible to defend Dean without attacking Clark, isn't it?

[Totally Committed]

144. Clarkies denigrating Dean? ------ Where?

I have stated many times that I respect Howard Dean immensely for all he has done and continues to do for/with The Democratic Party.

Denigrate him? Where do you get this stuff?

TC

[sharonking21]

184. This doesn't make sense

I don't mean on a political level. What are you trying to say?

[Larkspur]

80. This poll is still an insult to Howard Dean and it was intended to be an

insult to Howard. this thread should be locked.

[Jai4WKC08]

82. An insult to Dean is a reason to attack Clark?

RA is no Clarkie, that's for sure.

[Totally Committed]

106. I think it is an insult to both men...

and their supporters.

And, I think it was meant to be just that. That was the point.

TC

[sharonking21]

97. It is intended as a "put-down" for both of them

Just don't let him get by with it by blaming either Dean and Dean people or Clark and Clark people. Perhaps he just prefers a candidate who has little to no grassroots following or a candidate who has little representation on DU. Or perhaps he is just somewhat challenged on some important dimension.

[Totally Committed]

107. Great post, Sharon... n/t

TC

[dogman]

108. See, we can agree, it should be locked.

It's not only insulting to Howard Dean, it's only purpose is flamebait. Too bad to see a taker. It wasn't working for a while.

[Radical Activist]

111. Since Dean supporters have adopted the yell

as a rallying cry, I don't see it as an insult.
If I want to insult Dean thare are much more effective ways I can do it.

[Totally Committed]

112. The point is...

Why, as a Democrat, do it at all?

TC

[lonestarnot]

70. Both are welcome to the party!

:party: :toast:

[sharonking21]

76. Wrong Division

Radical Activist’s snark
Tried to pit Dean against Clark,
But our work in the trenches
Led instead to our clinches,
So his ploy to divide missed the mark.

[LandOLincoln]

116. ROTFLMAO!

Dorothy Parker, eat yer heart out...

[Crunchy Frog]

185. I originally wasn't going to respond on this thread

but Sharon, in response to your post, I just have to say.:yourock:

Welcome to DU.:)

[sharonking21]

186. Thank you

I see that you too are of the kindred of the stalwart, brave, and pure:>) so I doubly appreciate the welcome. (I always wonder exactly who I'm talking to, given that I probably "know" you from email lists etc). I have identified a few, but so far, not all.

[Crunchy Frog]

188. Well, I mostly only post here

and any other lists and forums that I'm a member of I pretty much have the same username so this most likely is our first meeting, but I hope I'll be seeing alot more of you on this board.:hi:

I've recently been taking a bit of a sabbatical from this board which is probably why we haven't run into each other earlier.:)

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithy Cherub]

83. and the people... Love the Gov as DNC Chair

and with my time did an amazing amount to help him meet that goal. Would you completely disparage the use of time on obtaining these truly worthy political goals. I have the utmost respect for Governor Dean and his inpired followers and would hope that the same respect would be given in return.

Absolutely love the thought and ideal of Clark as POTUS.

[Jai4WKC08]

89. Takes more time to post than to vote

And the second flamer in the thread, this time against Clarkies instead of Clark, is once again someone with a Dean avatar.

Sad....

[x_y_no]

90. This thread should be locked

If this isn't "trolling behavior" in violation of the rules, what is?

[Capn Sunshine]

91. Yeeeeaaaarrgghh?

Please. What flamebait.

[Radical Activist]

114. It isn't flamebait when

Dean supporters have it in their sig line or on buttons at DFA meetups.

[x_y_no]

117. Yeah, sure you didn't want to start a flame war ...

No sale.

Fortunately, it looks like most Clark and Dean supporters are wise to you.

[Radical Activist]

120. Read post #118

Then look at the responses to a non-insulting question I asked in post #56. Then you'll see my point.

[x_y_no]

125. There are six responses to #118

And five of them are straight answers. So what's your point?

[x_y_no]

142. oops ... I meant #56 n/t

[lojasmo]

191. It is flamebait when it's used as a prejorative by a muckraker.

I suppose you go around using the N word because black americans use it all the time?

[lojasmo]

94. "the general" vs. "yearrrgh" What a bullshit thread. EOM

[Totally Committed]

96. Both are great...

in their own way. Both men have enormous grass-roots followings. Both are committed to changing the Democratic Party one that actually wins elections.

For anyone who doesn't know already, I am probably the staunchest of Clarkies. I don't just think General Clark should be POTUS, I think General Clark should be POTUS NOW. You need only to check out any of my posts to see that I admire him, respect him, and support him to the hilt... and there is not much that would make me change my mind about it. I believe if he had been the candidate, he would have beat Bush, crooked election or not.

But, that having been said, Howard Dean is deserving of a great deal of credit for what he also accomplished. His followers are highly motivated and enthusiastic. For any of us who are familiar with Democratic Party Politics, Howard Dean was the breath of fresh air that blew the doors open, and shed light on a number of things that needed to be changed in this Party. He has ideas. He has energy. He knows the status quo must go. And truth be told, if Howard had been the eventual nominee, I would have felt better voting for him on election day than I did Kerry. And, we might even still be contesting that election if he had been the candidate...I ask you, can you envision Howard Dean conceding the election as was done? No way.

This is only my opinion, but this Party not only needs both of them, but should fall on its knees daily in thanks for what both do so well... lead.

Bless them both!

TC

[sharonking21]

99. Amen, amen!

This is only my opinion, but this Party not only needs both of them, but should fall on its knees daily in thanks for what both do so well... lead.

Bless them both!

[lyonn]

131. truer words were never spoken

Dean got the ball rolling with his outspoken ways. I knew what he was talking about. He got the Dems out of its duldrum. He Inspired the party. At least made the media pay attention. Who else did that? When the media hammered him with the scream many saw Clark as the next best alternative. He spoke on health care, torts, etc. and was very much like Dean's proposals. What other Dem did that? Kerry had many good attributes, but failed to stick with his issues. Like saying, "I would have voted the same way" even tho he knew how wrong the intelligence was on Iraq and how we were manipulated by the bushes. It dissappointed me severely. It didn't make sense. We are in the same spot now, too many Dems are weak on their principals. We are losing folks. We need some honest politicians to carry the message, not suck ups.

[AllyCat]

98. I supported Clark in the primaries...

...but I feel Dean is a good leader for the Dem Party now.

It's good to see two great people have so much support here.

[formernaderite]

100. don't know what it is...

but the pro-clark people and their polls irritate me..

[Totally Committed]

103. This is not a poll started by a "pro-clark" person...

in case you didn't know that, and this was not just an excuse to express your displeasure.

TC

[Tom Rinaldo]

105. Then don't let yourself be so easily manipulated

This poll had nothing to do with Pro Clark people. The original poster is not at all Pro Clark. Nor Pro Dean for that matter. You are having a knee jerk reaction. Knee jerk reactions are unhealthy to your political health. Since you have fallen for one, I suggest you deal directly with your bias. Come on over to the DU Clark Supporters group and work it out honestly with some Clark supporters. We have no interest in engaging in any flame fests on this thread which was just an attempt to stir up trouble in my opinion.

I strongly back both Clark and Dean.

[quinnox]

104. niether is my favorite

I always liked Kerry and Edwards and Gephardt (in the primary season) before either of those two.

But I can respect that both of them are voices in the Dem party that have large followings among the activists.

It is very early but at this time for 2008 I still like Kerry or Edwards, either would make a fine president

[lyonn]

115. Radical, who do you think

has a good chance in 08?

[Radical Activist]

127. I think a lot of people have a chance.

Its a little early. Feingold and Edwards look the most attractive to me but I'm waiting to see who delcares. I'm sure Clark has a chance of winning too, but as I've said before, I prefer people with experience in elected office.

[lyonn]

136. gotta say, Bush had an elected office

Not that that isn't important, but issues and smarts/intelligence is an issue, without a personal ulterior motive. Feingold needs more reviewing as I do not know the depths of his ideas and votes. What little knowledge I have of him is positive, but, for Pres? I truly don't know. Edwards I like but feel he has a problem getting his point across. His tort experience is a real plus as he knows what the corps. do to the little guy. Explain more on your ideas. We NEED change.

[WI_DEM]

129. I voted for Dean, even though he is not running

but I know the General has the biggest following on DU so I'm not surprised by the result.

[WI_DEM]

130. It is possible to have a Clark/Dean ticket in '08

If Clark is nominated for president. While Dean has ruled out seeking the presidency, he could still be chosen for VP especially if he gets the job done in '06 and has the party on a healthy path in '08.

[madfloridian]

135. Radical is having some fun today.

Laughing up his sleeve.

[x_y_no]

137. Actually, I figure he's knashing his teeth ...

at having failed to ignite his hoped-for flame war.

[jfenway]

139. I am sure RA is happy..

simply by having his topic consistently being at front page...

J.

[Radical Activist]

146. Yep.

Other people must like this topic as well since it has gotten 150 replies in a fairly short time.

[Fleshdancer]

143. This is too damn hard. I love them both

:(

[nickshepDEM]

147. Of the two I have to go with Clark...

IMO, Clark would have been the best candidate in 2004. Maybe, 2nd best behind Edwards.

In 2008 neither will have much of an impact.

[ZootSuitGringo]

153. IMO

In response to your statements, nickshepDem:

You're right.
don't think so.
Don't hold your breath for a "1992 redo" with DINO candidates. In 2008, we will need more than just a centrist governor or a red state senator. Don't understimate the Republicans hold on the trump card that has proven to win elections--Fear (sad but realistic).

However, if you want to relive our last plain good ol' victory, you can just hop into the time machine.

it's already set for 1991--enjoy! :hi:

[nickshepDEM]

157. Last time I checked....

We won our last presidential election by running a southern centrist governor.

If you want relive the last time a General won a presidential election hop in your little time machine and set the dial to 1956.

[ZootSuitGringo]

162. That might be more appropriate, IMO

Last I looked, there are more parallels now and in our upcoming near term future with 1956 than with 1992. We were in the middle of a war in 1956 (Korea vs. Iraq), and Communism was the terrorism of that time. America was much more conservative in 1956, as we are becoming more and more so now. Civil rights was an igniting issue in 1956, as Gay rights are igniting today. The tax burden was more on the poor in 1956, as it is becoming now.

Don't see quite the same parallels with 1992. Do you?

[yebrent]

149. I think it is telling that Clark and Dean people seem to get along...

after the primaries ended.

This is just an observation, but it seems to me that relative newcomers to the Democratic Party or at least new to actively supporting the Democratic Party are big fans of Clark and Dean. Clark brought me into the Democratic Party from being a person who regularly used the term Republicrats prior to 2001. Dean brought many into the party as well.

What they both have in common is that they are outside the beltway reformers.

In my experience Clark and Dean have received the most criticism from those who have been involved with the Democratic Party for a long time. Those who might be a tad defensive about others co-opting THEIR party.

IMO, the Democratic Party and the US Government as a whole needs sweeping reform from outside the beltway. Clark and Dean are just the people to help bring that about.

[ZootSuitGringo]

170. Well, I think that there's

a few minor unhappy souls still on this board, but that too shall pass.

[madfloridian]

177. Please define a "minor" soul to me.

And unhappy about what?

Does not being for a person, make us a "minor" person? How will that pass.

[CJCRANE]

150. International DUers

Has anyone ever considered that due to his experience with NATO (i.e. in multilateral diplomacy etc) that quite a few Clark fans could be overseas DUers?

[Totally Committed]

152. By that, do you mean...

Americans living overseas, or citizens of other countries?

During the Primaries, there were Clark Meet-Ups in a lot of European cities for the American citizens that were there living/working. Paris, London, and a few other cities (don't remember, does anyone else?) had meet-ups that were pretty well-attended.

They all told us how admired and respected Wes was in those respective countries.

That having been said, Wes also has had posters at CCN from Japan, Taiwan, Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Australia, Germany, Italy, and a few other foreign countries. Again, they all speak of the respect and admiration there is for Wes in their countries.

So, no matter how you meant that, really... Wes's NATO experience as well as his books and articles have brought him supporters from all over. I don't, hoever, know how many of them post here.

TC

[CJCRANE]

155. Both, as you said

I'm a British DUer and whilst I'm not a "Clarkie" it seems pretty obvious from over here that Wesley's the man in terms of moderate/progressive politics and international clout.

I can't understand the naysayers who think that because he hasn't had a term as a governor or senator that he's not presidential material. I would see that as a step down from Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

His main drawback is that he doesn't have the media profile or name recognition just yet to be a serious contender.

[CarolNYC]

179. A German boy

When I was phonebanking for redefeatbush, after it was ineveitable that Kerry would get the nomination but before he picked a VP, one of the redefeaters was accompanied by a young German man who offered to help. We got to talking about the VP and he said that he really hoped it would be General Clark, that the Germans loved him. He was in the US on some kind of program from school and he said the day he got to NYC, the first thing he did was look for the Clark campaign headquarters because he wanted to volunteer. Unfortunately, he came to the States at just the time the General was dropping out of the race.

I don't think he posts on DU though. :)

[MODemocrat]

158. Why didn't you use Dean's name?

You used General for Clark, so why not Governor or Doctor for Dean? Why buy into the media's tricks about Howard Dean's "scream." He really does have his own identity. I like Clark, and he was my pick as long as he would have Dean as his running mate.

:eyes: :dem:

[Radical Activist]

180. Why didn't ask the same question about Clark?

Why are you worried about me not using Dean's name but you don't care that I don't use Clark's name? Why is it that someone can't post the slightest thing that might seem like the smallest offensive remark about Dean OR Clark without 10 people jumping down their throats and starting a flamefest?

Dean supporters have adopted the scream as a rallying cry, so I don't consider it to be offensive anymore. I called Clark the General because I wanted to use the scream for Dean and I couldn't think of a catch phrase for Clark.

[JHBowden]

159. Yeeargh!

Take that, Clark Underground!

[jfenway]

172. Welcome to DU,

Dr. Dean.. ;-)

[usregimechange]

168. Russ Feingold.

[Clark Bar]

174. General Wesley Clark and Doctor Dean are both fine men.

I have voted for every Democratic Presidential candidate since John F. Kennedy;however, Clark energizes me more than any candidate since JFK ran in 1960. I will donate money to his cause because I believe he is the right man for these turbulent times. Join WesPac.com .

[Totally Committed]

175. WesPAC is now...

www.securingamerica.com

I love your name, Clark Bar!

TC

[bitchkitty]

176. Whatever.

All I can say is I'm glad Howard is the head of the DNC, and not Clark. The picture of Clark that was around back in the day, hallelujahing and getting in the spirit with the fundies kind of ruined it for me.

[Radical Activist]

181. Nice user name.

I like it. :)

[newsguyatl]

178. ...

ob·sess Audio pronunciation of "obsessed" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-ss, b-)
v. ob·sessed, ob·sess·ing, ob·sess·es
v. tr.

To preoccupy the mind of excessively.


v. intr.

To have the mind excessively preoccupied with a single emotion or topic: “She's dead. And you're still obsessing” (Scott Turow).

[SpaceBuddy008]

196. alot of phoney baloney about Clark round here (HAWK) SMDWN! coming..

from my files any day now.....

for....just ..starters

Clark and the Project for the New American Century
Friday, January 02 2004 03:55 PM PST

Studying up this morning on approaches for world peace, I was reading the infamous document Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century from the Republican William Kristol's think tank Project for the New American Century and I ran across this picture of Wesley Clark on page 16 of the publication (page 28 of the PDF). That seemed oddly out of place...but perhaps it shouldn't have. When questioned about Clark's failure to have registered as a Democrat until recently, Jeff Cohen remarked today "It's hard to imagine how a longtime Republican can win the Democratic nomination. You can't beat a real Republican, Bush, with a recently lapsed Republican, Clark". Why don't all of us Democrats, Greens, and Independents just re-register as Republicans so they don't have to come to our party?

http://www.denniskucinich.us/article.php?story=20040102155547526

embedded links in this paragraph at above link take you right to the Docs.

give it up, while the gettin's good
WE NEED A 'CIVILIAN' LEADER

in tribute to recent pie ing of Billy Kristol
www.pieman.org

[ClarkUSA]

197. What hooey! Is that why Richard Perle said this about General Clark?

" seems to be preoccupied, and I'm quoting now, with building legitimacy, with exhausting all diplomatic remedies... ÊSo I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action.<.b> He wants to wait."
~ Richard Perle, PNAC signer & Iraq war-mongerer, before HASC on Sept. 26, 2002

FYI, Wes Clark was a lifelong independent, as are over 95% of Arkansas voters (the state does not require voters to register with a party, so most opt to be independents). He was never a Republican. What do you have against Independents? He also voted Democratic since 1992 despite being a registered Independent, which is more than I can say for many Reagan Democrats.

Why are you repeating RNC talking points?

[Totally Committed]

198. See this thread at Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/4/2/171355/6258

TC

[SpaceBuddy008]

204. I grant yr. personal preference, but we should let the facts decide

if he was not so deceptively sold, there would be less resistance

to hearing his current stances on issues

all people can and should be given the freedom to prove they have changed

but he seems real slick, too professional of a career 'communicator'

we need truth, been burned too much, including that Republican Clinton

HERE ARE SOME MORE FACTS

if you are going to spend tour time and effort supporting him..
please take the time to read through this when ya' have a chance
with an open mind

please no personal attacks

peace is in our future, peace is possible

he is not a republican, or was not a republcan?

here is some more evidence including a compilation dossier on Clark that I'm sure any student of the american political scene would surely want to print out as hard copy

it's impeccably researched

The awful truth about Wesley Clark

www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/DVNS_Wesley-Clark.htm

spoke at Repub's fundraisers= www.laweekly.com/ink/03/45/news-ireland.php

danger in kosovo= http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/671495.stm

Clark's True Colors by Matt Taibbi (very entertaining) =

www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20031215&s=taibbi

SpaceBuddy008 at YR. Service
ResiStinG the Privatizing of Truth

[Totally Committed]

205. What makes you think I haven't read them already?

... and I just disagree with them?

It's all a bunch of anti-military garbage. I have read everything about or by General Clark before I decided to join the draft for his candidacy. I kept reading all through the Primaries.

I support General Clark to the hilt. He is seen as strong on all the Red State issues like National Security, and yet he is so socially progressive as to satify the likes of this ex-hippie.

I think it is YOU who need to broaden your reading on the man.

You could start here, maybe:

Retired General Reflects on United States’ Policy Towards Iraq
(October 10, 2002)
University of Massachusetts at Boston
By Michael McPhee
www.umb.edu/news/2002news/reporter/ november/iraq.html

Iraq: What Went Wrong
NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS
VOLUME 50, NUMBER 16 • OCTOBER 23, 2003
Feature
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16650

Let the general lead Democrats' charge
Will voters like Clark, if Clark is like Ike?
Robert Scheer
Creators Syndicate
10.08.03
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=1577...

Liberals Get A Think Tank Of Their Own
New Shop Will Develop Ideas, Fight Conservatives
By David Von Drehle
Washington Post Staff Writer
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2623-200...

COMMENT: Success of military diversity proves affirmative action works
October 24, 2003
BY WESLEY CLARK
http://www.clark04.com/articles/010 /


'Winning Modern Wars': Wesley K. Clark's Warpath
By MAX FRANKEL
Published: October 26, 2003
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A00EEDA...
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/books/review/26FRANKE...

Waiting for the General
VOLUME 50, NUMBER 18 • NOVEMBER 20, 2003
Feature
By Elizabeth Drew
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16795

Bush beater: Is Wesley K Clark the man who can stop George W Bush's re-election? He sets out his stall in Winning Modern Wars
http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophya...

Winning Modern Wars: Iraq, Terrorism and the American Empire
Jason Burke
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
by Wesley K Clark
Westview Press £18.99, pp208
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,1091...

Clark Says O'Neill Book Vindicates Him
Jan 11, 8:16 PM (ET)
By KATE McCANN
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/7720784.htm

Josh Marshall on Drudge charge that Clark supported the war
September 26th 2002 congressional testimony: Now, I've been suggesting that people go and read the actual testimony to get a sense of whether these cherry-picked lines at all represent what Clark said that day. But I know people's lives are busy. And perhaps you don't have the time to get through the whole transcript. But maybe that's not necessary.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_01_...

An Army of One?
by Gen. Wesley Clark
September 2002
http://www.clark04.com/articles/001 /

Occupation No Model for This One
Wesley K. Clark
March 23, 2003
http://www.clark04.com/articles/002 /

Strategists win their spurs with overhaul of military
General (ret.) Wesley K. Clark
April 12, 2003
Times of London
http://www.clark04.com/articles/003 /

Nato's way forward uncertain as it takes on new members
General (ret.) Wesley K. Clark
April 16, 2003
Times of London
http://www.clark04.com/articles/004 /

Brits brilliant but short in resources
General (ret.) Wesley K. Clark
April 17, 2003
Times of London
http://www.clark04.com/articles/005 /

After the storm we must wait for blue skies
General (ret.) Wesley K. Clark
May 1, 2003
Times of London
http://www.clark04.com/articles/006 /

Deaths are inevitable as rebels vie for control
General (ret.) Wesley K. Clark
Thursday, June 26, 2003
Times of London
http://www.clark04.com/articles/007 /

To stay in, we've got to define our exit strategy
General (ret.) Wesley K. Clark
July 1, 2003
Times of London
http://www.clark04.com/articles/008 /

Josh Marshall Interview with Wesley Clark
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2003_09_...
(October 01, 2003 -- 12:44 PM EDT // link // print)
YESTERDAY, WESLEY CLARK came to DC to make the rounds on Capitol Hill.
I got the opportunity to interview him during the car ride from Dulles Airport back to Washington.

Unofficial Transcript: Clark at Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing
http://www.usembassy.it/file2000_02/alia/a0020414.htm
02/04/00, (Feb. 2: Excerpts from question-and-answer period)

•Carnegie Council on Ethics and International Affair’s annual Morgenthau lecture
LECTURE | May 2003
Waging Modern War
by General Wesley K. Clark (ret.)
Introduction
http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/viewMedia.php?prmTemplat...

www.securingamerica.com

TC

[SpaceBuddy008]

206. sir, i would simply say,"sure alot of folk's are against the war...NOW !"

and yr. response is called 'piling on'..info dump-age
see www.fallacyfiles.org

With so many American flags being unfurled of late, I return with increased appreciation to the illuminated understanding Krishnamurti precisely articulates regarding where we must go as a species to successfully grow through and beyond our adolescence and embark upon the cosmologically open-ended journey and exploration of what humanity will discover and manifest as a maturing species in the process of expanding human consciousness, individually and then collectively.

When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

--J. Krishnamurti, Freedom from the Known, pp.51-52

We can ill afford to so continue separating our selves from each other within our single, fragile, utterly mysterious, and indescribably precious human family. The opportunity facing each of us to transform this source of violence is: to expand the consciousness we are carriers of by facing squarely the despised, rejected, or ignored aspects of our selves, individually and collectively, and embrace anew these estranged yet integral parts of our whole selves. Doing so re-integrates aspects of our selves that have been split-off and sacrificed, resulting in such consequences as those we all are too painfully aware of at this moment.

never underestimate the power of New CitizenMedia


and the fact that history, sanity, truth, the needs of the very Future
and the state of the environment
IS ON OUR SIDE

get to work
quit naysayin'
we can make it happen
and take charge of hiStory OurStory!

[sharonking21]

207. Bleah

Totally Committed was hardly 'piling on' as you say. You tried to sum up Clark with a smear tactic involving his photo being in embedded in an PNAC document (the disingenuousness of which I detailed below). Then you posted links to a selected few places trying to do the same kind of thing. When she provided a comprehensive list of reliable sources countering your rabid disinformation, you then turned to nebulous philosophy and gigantic fonts. Bleah. That is really the way to convince people.

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Totally Committed]

200. I was surprised at Kucinich for that, too.

Why does Dennis have this nonsense on his website?

TC

[sharonking21]

201. I went and looked at the site further

and it is a blog with no "official" connection to Kucinich. Obviously some of his supporters do not share his high standards.

[Totally Committed]

203. Thanks for telling me that, Sharon!

I love Dennis! Glad to hear it's not his doing...

TC

[sharonking21]

233. Dear Esteemed DU Colleague

As I explained earlier, the photo to which you refer in a PNAC document comes from a stock of military file photos that are open for anyone to use. The originator of the document you mention most likely got a real snicker out of putting the photo of Clark, a leading anti-neocon, in his report. It was not meaningful at all. Because I think well of Kucinich's ethics, I was at first surprised to see such a thing on his site, but as detailed below, I found that it is not an official Kucinich website.}(

[FrenchieCat]

223. That's what you've got now....

a Civilian leader.

Doh!

[Mutley]

209. i like em both

but if i have to choose one it's gonna be the General!

[MollyStark]

214. Nice game of "let's you and them fight"

I am suprised that the mods haven't locked this.

[Imagevision]

216. After voting for Nixon-Reagan-Both Bush's he's now a Dem?

[Totally Committed]

217. Once again... WRONG.

He voted for Clinton/Gore (he is a very good friend of Bill's, btw) both times, and Gore/Lieberman. He has already said this a number of times.

As a matter of fact, they are so close, he is speaking at The Clinton Library today:

"Path of a President" dinner event
Start:
April 4, 2005 - 7:00pm

Location:
Clinton Presidential Library, Little Rock, AR
It's one thing to just tour "political places." It's another to visit these sites and meet the people who helped make the destinations famous. That's what the new offering by Little Rock Tours, "The Path of a President," will include on its inaugural run, April 4 and 5.

"The Path of a President," which combines tourism and politics, will focus on Little Rock and Hot Springs National Park and include the major tourist attractions, the history, and Clinton sites in both communities. In addition, participants will have the opportunity to meet and listen to people who have made political headlines around the world.

On Monday, April 4th, as part of "The Path of a President," General Clark will speak at a dinner event at the Clinton Presidential Library and the Holiday Inn Presidential Center, along with Senator Dale Bumpers and Gene Lyons.

A limited number of seats are available for this event. Tickets are $75. The deadline to purchase your tickets is March 31.
Please call Cary Martin at Little Rock Tours at 501-868-7287 or 800-933-3836 for more information.

http://www.securingamerica.com/?q=node/113

And he was at the Clinton Library Opening Ceremonies:

Counterinaugural at the Clinton Library
By Sidney Blumenthal
Salon.com

Excerpt:

The opening ceremony was biblical in its spectacle, length and rain. For more than four hours we huddled in thin ponchos under the unrelieved downpour, through many church choirs and a Colombian children's band, a jazz trumpeter and Bono, awaiting four presidents. Only on election nights, after Clinton's two victories, was Little Rock previously inundated with such a cast of thousands - former advisors and Cabinet secretaries, the diplomatic corps and high school friends of Bill, Wes Clark and Barbra Streisand, Madeleine Albright and Robin Williams - spilling out of the Capital and Peabody hotels and down the main drag, and milling in the bars and streets until the wee hours. For the assembled Democrats, beneath the nostalgic celebration it was an unofficial convention, a kind of counterinaugural, with rueful discussions of the recent defeat.

Entire Article:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/112704F.shtml

They are also involved together with City Year in Little Rock

http://community.webshots.com/photo/218212376/218276132PiqebN

http://community.webshots.com/photo/218212376/218217338EKWwNX


Yeah, Wes is a really BIG Republican... Please at least research your smears before you make 'em!


TC

[MollyStark]

220. The Bushes were there too. Are they democrats?

Just because Clark says he voted a certain way doesn't mean he did. I could tell you I voted for Pat Paulsen in the 70s but it wouldn't be true. How would you know?

[Totally Committed]

224. Molly, Molly, Molly....

"I could tell you I voted for Pat Paulsen in the 70s but it wouldn't be true. How would you know?"

Using this logic, what right does anyone have saying they know how he voted, then?

Wes has stated who he voted for in the elections mentioned. He did so in response to a question asked of him by Joseph Lieberman during one of the debates, in fact.

So, please... get with the facts!

TC

[MollyStark]

226. That's right, what good does it do for anyone to say how they voted?

It's doesn't do any good.

[Totally Committed]

227. George McGovern...

a man embematic of the Liberal Wing of the Democratic Party endorsed him, and in his speech doing so, said Wes was the "most Democratic" of all the Democrats running.

TC

[FrenchieCat]

225. Ches.... Plu-eaze

Clark lied about voting for Nixon? and then was endorsed by McGovern anyways?

You are just joking, right?

[Tom Rinaldo]

228. You're right. He probably lied about voting for Reagan. n/t

[MollyStark]

229. How would that help him with democrats? n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

230. It would have helped with Democrats if Clark said

that he voted for McGovern Carter and Mondale. However he openly said that he voted for Nixon and Reagan, which is the reason why this issue comes up in the first place. So you have no problem accepting Clark's word that he voted for those Republicans, but you become a skeptic when Clark says he voted for Clinton and Gore. If Clark wanted to lie about his voting record he could have saved himself a whole lot of trouble, couldn't he?

Not to mention that it makes sense that Clark voted for Clinton and Gore, for the same reason that Clinton pushed Clark's career forward. Clinton and Clark genuinely had strong areas of shared vision in the field of foreign affairs. That is why Clinton backed Clark in the first place. That is why Paul Wellstone told people "I found my General" after he met Wes Clark.

McGovern and Carter, two men who Clark actually admits he voted against, both have high regard for Clark. Carter asked him to run, and McGovern endorsed him for President. Clinton called him one of two rising stars in the Democratic Party. I think two Democratic former Presidents and one former Presidential nominee know more about Clark's real Democratic credentials than someone engaged in abstract speculation about how Clark could have lied about having voted for Democrats.