to:"bush won" people - WHY DO YOU BELIEVE BUSH WON, what facts do you use?

[Griffy]

I am seriously interested in the people that seem rational, but feel the voting system wasn't rigged for bush to win. I see a ton of facts that lead me to believe it is much more likely bush cheated than won fair... heres a few that get me..

Diebold and ES&S have CEO and vice CEO are brothers, huge bush supports and have written proof that at least Diebold said they would do whatever it takes to deliver OH to bush.

Triad, has now been shown to have ties to USAnext.. the people smearing the AARP.. and other GOP connections...

A computer programmer under sworn testimony was asked to make software to control the voting machines.

Statistical evidence clearly showing that everywhere paperless electronic machines were, bush won outside the margin, while the rest of the nation remained in line with past election results!

the 2000 elections..

the 2002 elections..

and I could go on.. Conyers has 38 items in OH alone.. this is part of what I see...

do I know exactly what happened.. of course not, and neither do you.. so I ask .. Why do you believe bush won?

Because I want this fully investigated, but since the power that stole the election obviously doesn't want it looked into, it wont be officially. If they are lucky.. people in this country will all say, bush won.. and Dem's will scratch their heads and say "lets figure out what we did wrong and try again". I think we won, and I'm open to any facts that show otherwise.

[slackmaster]

1. Have you considered the possibility that he cheated AND won?

The main factor swaying me to believe that Bush won is the electoral vote count, which is the only fact that really matters.

[Griffy]

3. Why did the electors vote that way?

and I have.. but why would he cheat if he was winning... it was the exit polls that told them by 6 or 7pm on election day that Kerry was going to win about 311 elector college votes and the popular vote by 3 or so million. So what happened.. you tell me you believe bush won because the electors voted him in... .. when I say bush won or lost.. I am referring to if we had a fair system.. and all votes are counted.. as in the will of the people that went to vote that day! Isn't that what we want? Along with an honest media..


Please explain not just he won cause he in office.. its like saying, your stuffs gone cause you were robbed.. duh! but explain how and why you think bush "won"!

[slackmaster]

7. I doubt that any decision to cheat or not was made at the last minute

The exit polls are irrelvant and garbage. I care nothing about exit poss results or gee-whiz charts or statistical demagoguery that purports to "prove" that Bush didn't win. None of our high Democratic elected officials take that line of inquiry seriously. Only the actual vote matters. If you can't find a smoking gun, an actual provable mechanism by which the actual vote count was manipulated, there is no way to make a credible case the election was tainted badly enough to change the outcome.

Please explain not just he won cause he in office.. its like saying, your stuffs gone cause you were robbed.. duh! but explain how and why you think bush "won"!

I think the simplest, most likely explanation is that Bush won the electoral vote fair and square by winning the popular vote in enough of the right places at the right time. I believe there was widespread ineptness among election officials in Ohio and probably every other state. I believe there were as always isolated pockets of individuals, not restricted to the GOP side, who used dishonest and illegal means to try to influence the results their way just as there is in every major election.

[Griffy]

24. You confuse what with why.. I understand what you believe..

BUT WHY... what leads you to believe it was fair and square.. WHY.. are you referring to the "numbers" that the electoral used to vote bush in.. those numbers.. thats what I'm getting at.. you think exit polls are irrelevant, WHY.. I'm asking for thought.. not MSM "facts".

"The simplest explination" is the one they fed you.. duh.. its also not true...

Basically, you are saying you trust the system worked fair.. that Diebold didn't try to rig anything.. that they had respect for the process and didn't "cheat" in the counting. Somehow the bush admin has gotten the benefit of the doubt from you. The source of your facts is what I'm asking... and twice now you have evaded this, by restating WHAT you believe, not WHY!

If it was only exit polls, I wouldn't be so sure.. but this whole election stinks, and on the heels of 2 other very suspect elections. I think it is the electronic paperless numbers that are garbage, and I have statements and proven bias to back this up... I have statistical 1 in a million odds that say the machines were rigged.
What facts do you have that bush won.. we'll try this 1 more time. Give me a fact... something.. help me believe that we are not living in a banana republic! Because if you cant show me something.. I'm gonna continue to work to expose the fraud, and the civil war that I hope is bloodless will follow. I am ready to fight and die to restore democracy, I just think you don't want to admit that your only fact is, "thats what the official results said"...

prove me wrong.. if you can!

[slackmaster]

26. I see no evidence that actual rigging occurred

No smoking gun.

Opportunity for rigging? Sure.

People who would be inclined to rig? Of course.

Basically, you are saying you trust the system worked fair.. that Diebold didn't try to rig anything.. that they had respect for the process and didn't "cheat" in the counting.

Most people, including most Republicans, do have respect for the process and do not engage in illegal activities.

...but this whole election stinks, and on the heels of 2 other very suspect elections. I think it is the electronic paperless numbers that are garbage, and I have statements and proven bias to back this up... I have statistical 1 in a million odds that say the machines were rigged.

Your statement amounts a sophisticated way of saying "I don't like the results of the election therefore I don't believe it." I don't like the result either, and until someone shows me convincing information that something was actually done that materially altered the outcome, or at a minimum until a credible Democratic voice in government stands up and cries "foul", I will believe that the obviously flawed process worked.

I'm gonna continue to work to expose the fraud, and the civil war that I hope is bloodless will follow. I am ready to fight and die to restore democracy, I just think you don't want to admit that your only fact is, "thats what the official results said"...

prove me wrong.. if you can!

Your arguments sound stunningly similar to the ones Creationists use to brow-beat people like me who accept as probable truth but cannot prove the theory of evolution. I believe evolution has occurred and continues to occur because a preponderance of evidence supports it, and all the pseudo-statistical arguments about the improbability of life forming and becoming more complex without some kind of divine intervention haven't done a thing to convince me otherwise because I know how easy it is to manipulate numbers in a self-deceived or deliberately deceitful manner.

The null hypothesis must be the election results reflect the will of the voters, as expressed through the Electoral College. Find hard evidence that the process was hijacked and I will gladly listen.

[Griffy]

29. Ok.. last time.. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE!!! what is so hard about this..

You attack and quote me.. I am asking you to explain how and why you believe bush won. Offical result come from somewhere.. like state sponsered news, it comes from somewhere.. it looks offical, but its propaganda. Please stop debunking my belief and express yours.
I don't feel you are thinking of my question, just answering talking points you use to difuse the millions of other Americans that think it was rigged.

I am very upset the results DID go my way and that the corperate election system selected bush. If Kerry had gotten less votes, I would be looking at other issues of communication and message... but I think millions of American got the message, voted for Kerry and had it stolen.. IMO

so.. last for the last time.. lets try this.. WHAT source do you have to back up the claim bush won? or.. HOW do you know bush won? .. or WHY do you believe bush won? ... its all the same type of question about where we get our information. For instance, if you watched fox news I would understand why you think bush won. But I doubt you do, so I am asking...

..and the Electoral college gets its voter info how?

[slackmaster]

47. I haven't attacked you even once, Griffy

It seems we have reached an impasse in our discussion. I've answered your question several times but you refuse to accept it. To continue the analogy of your argument with those of Creationists, let's try a substitution:

You attack and quote me.. I am asking you to explain how and why you believe in the theory of evolution. Offical scientific dogma come from somewhere.. like state sponsered news, it comes from somewhere.. it looks like science, but its propaganda. Please stop debunking my religious belief and express your belief in the religion of evolution. I don't feel you are thinking of my question, just answering talking points you use to difuse the millions of other Americans that God created Man in His own image.

I am very upset the evolutionists won and have been teaching their filth to our children and that the humanistic education system selected the theory of evolution. If fewer people were real Christians, I would be looking at other issues of communication and message... but I think millions of American got the message, voted for God and had it stolen.. IMO

so.. last for the last time.. lets try this.. WHAT source do you have to back up the theory of evolution? or.. HOW do you know we evolved from monkies? .. or WHY do you believe we evolved from monkies? ... its all the same type of question about where we get our information. For instance, if you watched fox news I would understand why you think life forms can change over time. But I doubt you do, so I am asking...

..and the mainstream humanistic science infrastructure gets its data how?

I think that makes my point as clearly as I can. I must decline to participate in this discussion any further, as it has become clear your intent is to bait and to browbeat.

[laugle]

15. You should look up

the election irregularities 2004 and check out what happened in Ohio. Without Ohio Bush would not have won the electoral votes to win.

[slackmaster]

19. BT, DT

I haven't seen convincing evidence that the irregularities in Ohio were anywhere close to sufficient magnitude to have resulted in misdirection of Ohio's electoral votes.

[laugle]

21. What does BT & DT mean n/t

[slackmaster]

22. Been There, Done That

:toast:

[Griffy]

25. So you default to bush didnt cheat? why dont you try to prove he DID win.

This is the point.. why must I convince you that the crook stole the election.. is it you dont see all the other illegal actions of this administration?... why is it that you need proof of bushes lies?... Have you not seen though the BS of the bushies?... the propagnada machine is in full swing and perhaps it got to you.. because the machine says bush won.. and it sounds like you agree, with no proof.. as usual.. like Terri Schiavo is aware.. did you believe that, or was that too obvious for you.. it appears the vote lie is too big for you to grasp.. so you default to public knowledge so as not to be a "conspiracy theorist" or in freep land, "upatriotic"

WAKE up..question the election and tell me WHY you believe bush won.. did you see any "convincing evidence bush won????? answer that!!

[slackmaster]

27. Burden of proof fallacy

I cannot prove a negative - that cheating of sufficient magnitude to overturn the election did not occur.

WAKE up..question the election and tell me WHY you believe bush won.. did you see any "convincing evidence bush won????? answer that!!

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As the person who is advancing an extraordinary claim it is YOUR duty to provide convincing evidence that he did not win.

[Griffy]

28. OK.. it would be Extrordinary if bush did cheat?

I think it would be extrordinary it diebold and friends actually built and programmed fair machines. SO again.. Why do you believe in the this extraordinary possiblity. There is no real proof of either... so why do you believe in the results presented to the public? I'm not asking you to prove anycheating at all, Im asking why you believe that bush won? You cannot prove the positive either, but you set a default to believe in the absence of a verifiable election. Please I ask again, Why do you believe that bush won?

No one at this moment knows what happened, you dont know if they didnt rig it (though you seem to ackowledge some fraud happened, just not sure how much.. but bush won.. I dont know how you rationalize that!), and I dont know if bush won fair.. My belief is he cheated... why do yougive bush the benefit of the doubt?!?

[slackmaster]

45. It would be extraordinary if Bush cheated and got away with it

I'm not asking you to prove anycheating at all, Im asking why you believe that bush won?

I believe Bush won because I have not seen convincing evidence that the official vote counts were wrong.

In absense of proof that the votes were tampered with, I have to assume the votes were counted correctly ergo Bush won.

[Griffy]

49. How were the "offical" result collected and counted?

So.. you believe the numbers that diebold machine produce? because if you dont.. then I dont understand why you would trust the offical result! So after all that bush has done.. lies to war, propaganda, fake crisis and so on... you give him the benefit of the doubt.. shocking. Well there is proof of vote tampering and proof of voting machine rigging. The fact that you haven't seen this is sad.. Go read Conyers report on the election. Barabra Boxer found some proof of vote tampering.. and stood up in the senate to say so. Do you not see that fascist regime, do you not see the neocons running the government, do you not see the criminal activities of this administration? If you do see these things.. why in hell would you think that bush would play fair in the election... he didnt in '00 or '02.

So now I ask.. WHY do you default that offical results are right and assume the votes were counted correctly? Paperless electronic machine show a huge swing for bush, but I suppose thats not proof in your mind. You need to do some research on the election if you see no proof. I was at Dean fundraiser and he knows the election was stolen(bush's corperate friends do the vote counting as he said)! Its masses of people in denial that has puplic figures not saying this in public, the media is not reporting the truth or investigating anything in the public intrest.

Please have read the conyers report before replying.. get informed!

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf#search='conyers%20report%20on%20election'

at thats just the start...

As far as lied and got away with it, are you seriouos? We could start with the war in Iraq.. would it be extraordinary if he publicly said they had WMDs over and over.. then we get there, no WMDs, and now its liberating.. then democracy... lets see, we find PNAC documents and hear reports that the intel told them the info was really shakey.. at best. No way he coulda got away with that! As I said.. I would be suprised if he didnt cheat!

[marions ghost]

51. SYSTEMATIC BIAS

which operates very well when control of the country is in corporate hands. A deliberately "skewed" election is quite possible in the current climate, even if you don't want to call it stolen. What do you say to the following argument, slackmaster?
------------------------------------
The Miami Herald Feb 03, 2005
ELECTIONS
Ukraine vote yields important lessons for U.S. democracy
BY LANCE DEHAVEN-SMITH

(excerpt)
"...unlike this year's presidential election in Ukraine, the 2004 presidential election in the United States was left intact despite legal challenges and protests. In large part this was because U.S. election laws and political culture fail to take into account the potential for systematic bias in election administration. U.S. laws and public opinion focus, instead, on the possibility that unscrupulous candidates might arrange for votes to be cast illegally by individuals using false identifications, forged absentee ballots, or other ruses.

Election shenanigans were common in the 19th Century and in much of the 20th, but in recent years they have been eclipsed by scattered mischief that is carried out or abetted by public officials responsible for election administration. One factor that has contributed to this shift from the conspiratorial tampering of the past to the massive fraud that is so prevalent today is the poorly conceived effort to remake government in the image of the private sector. In recent years, civil-service protections for government employees have been greatly weakened, and many governmental functions have been contracted out to private corporations.

These changes in American public administration have created a new spoils system that makes massive fraud likely in today's elections because it effectively ties public employment and government contracts to election outcomes. In Florida and Ohio, for example, many corporations, public officials and government workers had a vested interest in the reelection of President Bush. No conspiracy was needed to orchestrate their activities. Multiple biases with cumulative effects could be (and were) introduced into the election system through the independent efforts of numerous individuals acting on their own initiative in the pursuit of the same objective.
Until U.S. election laws are reformed to guard against massive fraud, our elections will remain vulnerable to systemic abuses.

To be sure, bias in election administration could probably be prosecuted today under existing laws. Certainly, officials in Florida and Ohio appear to have violated their official oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the constitutions of their states. They may have also broken federal civil-rights laws by intentionally weakening the voting power of African Americans. However, these acts of massive fraud have gone unpunished -- and, indeed, uninvestigated -- because most Americans have yet to recognize the new form of election tampering that is undermining our democracy."

Lance deHaven-Smith is professor of public administration and policy at Florida State University.

[wysi]

2. I suspect...

... that while most people believe at least some cheating went on, they also acknowledge that if the election had not been 'close' it would have been that much harder for chimpy to cheat himself to victory. It's much easier to rig a close election than a landslide.

[Griffy]

4. True... and it wasn't that close.. thats why I dont believe..

if you look at the data.. bush had to swing votes outside of the margins of error in many states.. everywhere there was paperless electronic voting. Had it been closer he could kept the stats inside the margin of error. Look at bushes approval right now... thats who voted for him, the brainwashed 46%.

So this leads to 1 of the most common positions...
"I know some fraud happened.. I dont know how much.. but bush won.."

HUH?.. "HOW DO YOU KNOW?".. the benefit of the doubt to bush?.. and these are people that readily admit bush lied us into war and is creating a fake crisis in Social Security.

[wuwei]

5. but he didnt win...

he was sElected and we all know it.

Kerry just rolled over like a lapdog before the counting was even finished. I think he helped sElect him at this point and am terribly upset with Kerry.

[Griffy]

30. Sadly.. WE all dont know this.. you can see the denial in this thread! nt

[robcon]

6. He did win.

There's no believable evidence that any significant number of votes were withheld or fraudulent, IMO.

* got more votes... it's as simple as that.

[FtWayneBlue]

8. I take umbrage at that. The election was most certainly stolen.

When you look at precints that went primarily to bush with voter turnouts supposedly approaching 100%, and in the poor kerry precints with turnouts as low at 10%, that is crap. The average alone proves that the vote was stolen.

[qwghlmian]

52. Documentation please. n/t

[KittyWampus]

11. You Obviously Don't Realise How Many Thousands Weren't Allowed

to vote ACROSS THE COUNTRY and how many computer glitches ALL FAVORED BUSH.

[Griffy]

31. Again.. not answering the question.. WHY do you believe bush won??

You simply dismiss "evidence" that obviously has or has not yet been found because there is no investigation. But it seems you dont want any investigation. HOW do you know bush got more votes.. source please!

I havent seen 1 credible source show bush won... I saw it on fox and cnn but thats not a source I can trust... Do you think bush is a crook? Do we have to start at the begining with his lies and misleading. Do we have to show you PNAC and the neocon agenda??... and yet.. bush played fair in the election.. I dont get it!

I bet you cant answer without discussing fraud... just say.. I believe bush got more votes because....

Cause I could fill pages with why I believe bush cheated, but Im asking for just 1 solid reliable source.

[stinkeefresh]

9. no one is answering the poster's question

No one is offering anything like evidence that Bush won- only giving him the benefit of the doubt due to lack of evidence that he cheated.

I think that alone says something.

I find the evidence that Bush cheated compelling.

[reedperry]

14. Stineefish

trout have underwater weapons

[laugle]

16. No one cares anymore or wants to

spend time on this OLD story. Who wants to look up the old data again. We have all read it. At this time it is FUTILE.......

[Griffy]

38. DISAGREE .. it is our DUTY to make this story known! MSM is dead..

Its up to us to inform our friends and family and to get involved in any way we can! I have bush cheated bumper stickers and buttons... the reactions are not as suprised as you expect... fox viewers are easy to spot like this.. they are angry to see my use of free speech!

So.. I will never stop talking about this!

[slackmaster]

20. If the official vote counts aren't good enough evidence for you...

...What, then, would constitute "evidence that Bush won"?

:shrug:

[Griffy]

37. BINGO.. so are you admitting you believe the official results?!

and if so.. have you taken the time to personally look at the how people voted, and on what machines and where?... did you take the time to see HOW those "official" results were reached. The advent of paperless electronic machines should at least raise a flag in your head as to a possible source of fraud! So.. if you dont want fraud.. you'll have a paper trail...if not your a moron or planning fraud. The banks transfer millions hourly and accurately, Diebold MAKES ATMS... its pathetic how obvious these crooks are, and amazing how people cling to what they knew was true.. and try very hard to fit any new facts into what they thought... and that were fox and lintball help the masses out. Throw in a few lies and bingo! Micheal Schiavo is a murder and Terri is aware. Facts matter, Statistic MATTER... its funny how we only hear what we can handle... FACE IT FOLKS.. the president is a crook and a liar! If you disagree with that I'd love to hear from you!

[Griffy]

33. FINALLY.. someone understands the question!...

unfortunately (or fortunately.. :) ) you dont believe bush won.. so you cant answer the question. They cant answer because they realize the answer is "because the government said so..." They release "official" numbers and we believe them.. or used to.. because they used to be relatively reliable.. till bush was on the scene and would do anything he needed to gain and control power. It like the masses of people that still believe the MSM actually does journalism.. they dont, they have almost no budget for investigations, they are just infotainment, but they never told the public that they would no longer be the 4th estate. And so we find ourselves in this situation, were we cant even get through to the very people being robbed, and the people that they used to rely on to tell the truth have quietly sold out to the corporations. MSM is about the bottom line now.. not a dedication to the truth.

[ComerPerro]

10. My take on it is: He cheated and got away with it

So, therefore, he "won".

[Totally Committed]

12. He won because...

The Democratic candidate conceded.

It was over at that very moment. Amen.

TC

[reedperry]

13. Cause

Amen

[laugle]

18. Welcome

from one NEWBIE to another....just curious how did you hear about DU? I found it by accident.

[Griffy]

35. Amen to what?.. he didnt answer the question...

Why do YOU believe bush won.. not how did bush get inaugurated, and what lead to that. The day before Kerry conceded, bush cheated..thats my belief.. and you can see most of that info online...

But if you think bush got more votes than Kerry, Im asking you how you know that enough to believe it!

If you are unsure who won.. why do you give bush the benefit of the doubt! I would be shocked if he DIDN'T cheat, in light of his actions and lies that we can clearly see! Like WMD's and Saddam ties.. Enron and energy.. payola.. patriot act.. PNAC... Social security "crisis" and on and on...

[Griffy]

34. Not the question.. the question is WHY do YOU believe...

not what are the factors that led to bushes inaguration. Do you believe bush got more votes on election day? If so, how do you know! This is about information, not about actions! (BTW.. I am angry at Kerry for that.. but that a diffent topic..)

Try to ask yourself.. about how we vote, who counted those votes, and how that information was passed on to you. So.. 1 more time...

Why do you believe bush won? (won means got more votes in this case)
and how did you come that belief?

the question of .. assuming he cheated, how did he get away with it?is a different thread...

[laugle]

17. The important question now is......

how to stop the next election and also 2008 election from being rigged. Repubs are not willing to do anything about election reform. Any suggestions?

[BradBlog]

23. Yes, Laura...

You're right. The Repubs will do anything to keep the system gamed as it was to allow Bush to "win".

What can you do? Join Velvet Revolution and take on the Voting Machine Companies directly!

http://www.VelvetRevolution.us

..and of most importance for the moment, be sure to sign the Email to the Voting Machine Companies letting them know you stand with VR and expect *them* to do the right thing for their country, or you will join the massive and sustained divesture from these companies, their affiliates and their clients!

Sign the letter right here (will take you 30 seconds!):
http://www.velvetrevolution.us/mailing.php?Mailing=05FC507D500021102290C

Brad
The BRAD BLOG - http://www.BradBlog.com
VELVET REVOLUTION - http://www.VelvetRevolution.us

[Griffy]

36. YES.. 1st thing, ADMIT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM (not you dear)

We have good dems still in denial.. the 1st thing we need is public awareness.. look in this thread alone, several people think bush won.. but no one can tell me WHY they believe that. My theory is that they would be forced to reveal that they only have the offical results to quote.. and they know that can be traced to the machines which they DO question! Anyone that looks at the close PROVABLE ties between ALL 3 electronic voting machines and the republican party.. especially the bush family.. cant not have some doubt in the fairness of the machines, if you dont your just naive!

But you are right.. we need to prevent this from happening in '06 .. and I believe that if the country accepts the stolen election, we will fix the next.. but they will continue to steal elections until the public calls them on it! So tell your freinds and family, and dont give up.. it will take time!

[laugle]

50. Thanks for the replys

I'm in a funny mood today and wanted to give you a laugh...not making fun of you. You have a typo "freinds" when you pronounce it, it made me laugh...it almost sounds like a southern word. Anyway, just in a light hearted mood! Your abviously very intelligent and very thoughtful and your points are well taken. No offense intended.

[BeFree]

32. Convince me that b**sh won

This is the statement needing to be asked: Show me proof that b**sh won the election.

I don't believe the counting was accurate. The ways the votes were tabulated has been shown to be going against all established norms for typical accounting practices.

Computer scientists nearly all claim that fraud in the use of computers would be nearly undetectable and easily accomplished.

The only evidence leading to a conclusion that b**h won is evidence from computers and the un-examined and un-examinable software which runs them. It is tainted evidence without common sense evaluations.

Meanwhile, the evidence pointing to fraud is mountainous and well examined, having been reviewed over and over, again and again.

Convince me b**h won fair and square. Show me real evidence; not computer generated animations.

[Jesus Saves]

39. Kos

"So why didn't I find the Ohio stuff compelling? Because the wacked out conspiracy theories hijacked the issue, taking it away from the obvious travesties -- the long lines in Democratic precincts, attempted voter intimidation, etc., to the realm of fantasy.
Us liberal bloggers like to brag that we live in the "reality-based community". It's kind of hard to be reality-based when people are claiming that Kerry won with no hard evidence to the contrary. Was there fraud? Sure. There always has been. Was the GOP ready to steal the election if necessary? No doubt. But they didn't have to steal this one. This wasn't 2000. Bush rode his fucked up war to victory, whether we like it or not. History will judge us right, but until then, we're stuck with the results.
Now, I was open minded at first, letting the fraudsters do the analysis, ready to pounce if the smoking gun was found. But after myriad diaries crying wolf, claiming that this was the evidence to seal the deal, well, it got old. Then it got counterproductive, then it got embarrassing.
3. All the crying wolf is hurting the cause for electoral reform. This has been painted as a partisan issue pushed forth by wacko liberals who think Kerry won the election when Bush won. What do we need?
* Extend election day to at least a week. Keep ALL polls open during that time, not just a few at county HQ.
* Get rid of partisan election officials. A more ridiculous and inherently unfair system can never exist. It is the King of Conflicts of Interests.
* Implement a national standard for voting and fund it.
* Get rid of touch screen voting machines. A paper trail is useless, as a machine could easily be programmed to cast the vote for candidate A, while printing a receipt with candidate B's name on it.
* Select optical scan machines. The technology allows for quick tabulation of the votes, while retaining a paper trail for random audits and full recounts.
* All precincts that reported lines longer than one hour should be required to add voting machines before the next election.
* The pitiful state of voting infrastructure in poor and minority areas is literally criminal, and redress should be sought both in the legislatures and in the courts.
* Ditch the electoral college.
And so on. That's just stuff off the top of my head. These are all non-partisan issues. But the Ohio Fraudsters have not just made the issue highly partisan, but they have cried wolf so many times that it's easy for opponents to dismiss ALL of these issues. "
http://pls.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/3/135759/4341

[Griffy]

40. STILL not answering the question... this is about the fraud...

which we know.. the extent of which is UNCLEAR... Im just confused as to why the default is to trust the "official" results. Especially when its followed by all the other events.. Some may have been crying wolf, but we lacked a single leader and any media outlet to the public at large.

this is the most foolish part...

..... It's kind of hard to be reality-based when people are claiming that Kerry won with no hard evidence to the contrary. Was there fraud? Sure. There always has been. Was the GOP ready to steal the election if necessary? No doubt. But they didn't have to steal this one......

So if bush was losing.. and was ready to.. and then did steal the election, how would that look vs. what we see here? So this writer is more in reality with this viewpoint.. knowing they would (and its easy to shows how they could) steal the election, but he says they didn't. HUH? Its amazing the lengths people will go to make the facts fit what they want to think.

I would honestly rather think that we lost fair and that we have hope to win the next 1, but the facts and history of bush and elections leads me to the only choice in which the facts all fit.. bush was losing.. he saw the same exit polls I did at around 7pm election day.. Kerry was about to win, including approximatly 3 million in popular votes... and then they cheated, like we all know they are capable of.. you know it.. its gonna be ok..we will catch the crooks... you are not alone!

[Griffy]

41. Read this thread and ask yourself about this responderes motives!

I read this thread then I see JS posting the same crap on my thread... he focuses on election issues.. acting like we are crazy.. and no one else is talking about this.. To bad for him I live in DC and I know what I hear... the election was stole JS... and your calculated resistance is very telling.. thank you for re-inspiring me!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3422737&mesg_id=3424062&page=

Check out #167 .. should look familiar!

busted!

[GetTheRightVote]

42. I'm a Floridian and helped out in the recount for Ohio, * stole it alright

But best of all I have the first hand experiences that many do not and I wish that they did have them. The attacks I and my children experienced first hand from Republican party citizens have shocked me into the belief that this election was stolen. These Repub citizens are scarcy and very much frightened me with their actions during the elections as well as rallies over time.

First, there were attempts to not let me vote which is my right to do so. Second, I helped at a polling location in Florida during the election and it was shameful how they kept voters, real voters, from casting their votes. Third, I helped in the Ohio recount and all the news that came out of that state were correct and accurate.

They did not allow a true recount and covered up what happened in the state. So what are they hinding then, they are hinding a stolen election. At my location there were votes that were obvious that they did not allow to be counted even though the law of Ohio required it. They hand picked the locatons to count even though Ohio law stated that they should be random. These are not nice people we are dealing with and I hope that all Democrats are watchful of the damage the Republican party and its backers are doing to this great nation.

I, for one, am very concerned with the condition of my country. We are not a Democracy or a represented Republican until the actions of the Republican party are brought to light and justice is served. I fear deeply for the blinded individuals of this country who do not see what is happening to her and us.

:mad: :mad:

[seabeyond]

43. i have never gotten an answer from those think bush won

texas and new mexico

vote a straight dem ticket and it would give the pres vote to bush and the rest to dems. if you didnt check it in preview, that vote was registered to bush. even when it was previewed it would take three four five times trying to clear it before getting the vote to kerry. these were heavily democratic areas in texas. houston, austin el paso. many people reported they gave up and the vote went to bush

they knew the first day of two week early vote. they didnt correct it. on election day, they still hadnt corrected it.

1 in 3
1 in 4

what was the ratio of votes that went to bush

this happened across the country in different manners. but this is fact. it isnt a theory

[TheWatcher]

44. Thank You for Posting this Griffy

I have become quite convinced that many who believe Bush won simply want to believe it because it is easier to deal with that way. To face the alternative is far too scary for most, because that is beyond the realm of control. Of course there are those who truly believe there was no fraud, but what worried me is the unwillingness to look at the obvious possibilites and probabilities.

Many still want to hold out hope that we have a legitimate system in place.

It will be this country's undoing in the end, but there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about it, because not enough people are willing to explore the obvious.

It is laughable, and I do not say that in a derogatory manner, for people to hide behind the facade of the comfort of a statement like, "But we have no concrete Proof.

Um, THAT'S THE POINT OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM KIDS.

There.

Is.

NO.

PAPER.

TRAIL.

There can be no audit. With the way they have it set up, there is no way to prove who voted how, and no way to prove that the code of the software was hacked or could be tampered with.

You'd have to see the code in order to do that.

But Oh, THAT'S RIGHT. YOU CAN'T.

But Why?

Let's go over it one more time.

There are FOUR PRIVATE CORPORATIONS that control the Electronic Voting Infrastructure in this country. All are heavily tied to GOP Interests, and have connections with the Christian Re constructionist Movement. By 2008 there will be enough Electronic Voting Infrastructure in place to guarantee there will never be a Free Election in this country again. There can't be one NOW.

Think I'm Full Of It? Sure, some of you do.

I'm willing to bet you'd take Mike Malloy seriously, though. How about Greg Palast?

Go to www.whiterosesociety.org and find the Nov. 3rd show right after the Election, and the show he had about a week before the Election with Greg Palast. A lot of this is explored in great detail.

The fact that Bush did not win is a moot point. What people should be focused on is that things are set up now so that the Electoral Process has been completely removed from the hands of the people.

There will never be another Free Election in this country again.....

Unless.....

You get rid of the current Infrastructure that controls Electronic Voting.

It's that simple.

No Paper Trail.

No Proof.

No Audit.

No Democracy.

And for those who control it.

No Problem.

And while those who simply cannot consider any of this say "No Way", we who have hope for change are increasingly going to find we have.....

No Way Out.

But for many, they stop to think about it, they start to consider the implications, what they can do with the technology, and what has most probably been done, and then they are faced with one simple Question.

"What Do We Do?"

And that's where for many, it's much easier to cry "conspiracy theory" and return to a way of thinking that is more comforting, and gives the illusion we still have a legitimate Electoral System.

So we go back to organizing, planning, strategizing, formulating the plans that we just KNOW will finally rid us of these criminals who have stolen this country.

Not realizing that all of our actions only apply and have relevance in a country where your vote actually is counted freely and untampered with.

Not wanting to face the strongest possibility that we have truly lost control of any say in how this country is run, and the choice of who runs it.

We ignore all if this at our peril.

And we are in Great Peril indeed.

But it's all just conspiracy nonsense......

Bush actually won. Fair And Square.

Didn't he?.....

[Charon]

46. Bush Won?

Last time I checked, He won the Electorial College Vote. This is the only Constitutional requirement. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[TheWatcher]

48. See My Post Above

Think Again.