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Earth calling liberals..the filibuster is OUR worst enemy.

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LimpingLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:06 PM
Original message
Earth calling liberals..the filibuster is OUR worst enemy.
Just thought Id let someboy know that.

If we ever want to change the status quo then this "nuclear option" could be a good first step (maybe the ONLY light at the end of a long tunnel we still have to climb out of).A precident that could mean good things in the furure.

Frankly ending the filibuster is a conservatives worst enemy.

I understand the fact that we have gotten our butts kicked on every issue you can imagine (war, civil libertys , bankruptcy , environment , medicare, plus we are about to throw senoirs to the wolves on Social Security as well,etc. , etc.)has us clamoring for a cheap "victory" but PLEASE just put partisanship aside and THINK for a change.

Lets assume all our Democratic Senators actually care about progressive issues (as if!) , even then it would be hard to get a 51 vote Democratic majority anytime soon. WE might as well not even care if we need 60 votes to pass progressive legislation, cause it wont make any differernce if we have a majority or not.Heck even Clinton got the filibuster 44(!) times in his first 2 years alone and most of his proposals were moderate pieces of legislation.He had 57 Senate seats.If we ever elect a progressive President then the right wing will only need to scare the pants off of the public and energize the strong conservative minority (which turns out to vote in heavy number in enough states plus has the media),then all the rabble rousing will bury any chances of passing anything over a filibuster.

END THE FILIBUSTER.

We need to end it not mend it , but mending is a good first step.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. ah, but herein lies the paradox
the rethugs will blather on about the filibuster, and may actually go as far as to remove it.

HOWEVER, if at any point they start to slip into the minority again they would immediately repeal it, and begin their normal howling about how dems subvert democracy.

They want to rig the game so then win. That's all there is to this.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. You're absolutely right
This will be a giant game of "keep-away". The first sign that Dems might take over (and with rigged voting, fat chance of that), and they will quickly reinstate it. They'll even come in on their days off to do it.

I'm, frankly, tired of the "We have to let the neocons destroy the country in order to save it" arguments. I've had about all the neocon destruction that I can take.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry, I don't agree
The filibuster is there for either side to use, and should not be sacrificed for perceived short term partisan gain on either side.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks...
... but I'll take Robert Byrd's advice on this issue. Congresses come and go, but judges are forever.

Cheers.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. You do know why the Founding Fathers
put it in there, don't you?

Try readying some Parlamentary History, in particular as it pertains to King George I, and KG II... and the abuses of power.

After you do that homework find out when Rules of Order came to be, and why, and then consider why those stodgy old white men put it in there.

Short term it will allow the majority to do whatever they want, you know how unamerican this is?

thought you'd like to know
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LimpingLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. PLEASE,the Senate was the body for wealthy Land Lords.
Man that was the most foolish thing I ever heard here and THAT says alot.

Learn DEMOcracy 101 please!
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comsymp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Speaking of learning...
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 03:02 PM by comsymp
OF COURSE "the Senate was the body for wealthy Land Lords."
So was the House, from which Senators were "elected." So was nearly every public office up and down the line.

At the time, all voters were "wealthy Land Lords."

More accurately, white male property owners. Only.

ON EDIT: I don't support ending the filibuster.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Senators not elected by US House
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 03:57 PM by kenny blankenship
Senators were elected by state legislatures, who were well paid for their votes! Up until 1916. (the Amendment requiring direct elections having been ratified in 1913).

Yes, it is a class determined governmental architecture, and even within that distinction of class there were legal exclusions along the lines of race and gender further distorting the mechanism of representation; but within that architecture, the US House was the body closest to the people. WHich is why the Founders (who it could be argued feared democracy even more than monarchy) insisted on having a Senate just for people like themselves in order to exercise veto power over the legislative impulses of the people.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
52. Yes but the entire gov'ment was meant for wealthy WHITE
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 01:57 AM by nadinbrzezinski
landlords, that is history 101... it is also a fact that much was put in the Constitution to AVOID the british model. It is also a fact that this was not the opinion of many, and many argued against these limits,... since they did not believe in a democracy, as limited as it was (read the Anti Federalists and then Adamn's papers)

That is history 101
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. The entire government was meant for wealthy landlords.
Hate to break that to you. But anyway.

Would you prefer that for the next two years, we get all manner of right-wing, extremist conservative judges shoved down our throats? I hate to break it to y'all, but there's more to the bench than the Supreme Court. All those federal judges and appeals courts are many times more important, and, most of the time, the end of the road. Look up "stare dericis," it's the favorite term of conservative judges and the Supreme Court.

The filibuster is there for a reason, and it has nothing to do with wealthy goddamn cracka land owners. It's to put a leash on the tyranny of the majority. Just because we have a majority does not mean we get to do what we want in 2006.

Maybe you're the one who needs to learn Democracy 101, along with perhaps Robert's Rules of Order.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Dem 101 should include historical checks of theoretical predictions
"It's to put a leash on the tyranny of the majority. Just because we have a majority does not mean we get to do what we want in 2006."

According to this theory of government (prevalent among the mass-hating founders) Great Britain should now be a police state with an Oliver Cromwell type dictator at its head and a privileged class of favorites and no accountability or service to the middle and lower classes.

Theories are fine and all, but they have to checked against FACTS and History at least OCCASIONALLY.

Seems like if what the UK has is tyranny of the majority, then what we have is tyranny of the minority (specifically the "minority of the opulent", to quote James Madison) And that being the choice I'll take tyranny of the majority EVERY FUCKING TIME.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. What the hell are you talking about?
I see a few random sentences strung together in there, but nothing coherent. Would you like to actually debate, or just throw around bumper sticker slogans?

"And that being the choice I'll take tyranny of the majority EVERY FUCKING TIME."

So, then, you have no problem with judges overturning abortion laws? Because that's what you'll get without the filibuster right now.

"Theories are fine and all, but they have to checked against FACTS and History at least OCCASIONALLY."

I am. You're the one waxing poetic, or maybe it's just weird, about how right now Great Britain would be a fascist theolocracy and whatnot. In fact, I can't even tell what in the hell you're babbling about there, although it is kind of funny in its own way.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. GB's Modern Parliament=Tyranny of the Majority
The British House of Commons and its Prime Minister who comes from its ranks, IS the Tyranny of the Majority that you and our democracy fearing founders railed against. And yet the British have survived the 20th century without despotism, and without anarchy taking hold. In fact, they seem to have a pretty stable governmental system and society on the whole, while benefitting from more social programs than we do, with a less violent, more cohesive society, with a respect for civil liberties that certainly does not suffer by comparison with ours. Who rules in Britain? Any party with a majority in the House of Commons. The country's Chief Executive holds his rank by virtue of being the leader of the majority party in Commons, instead of being set apart in an adversarial relationship as in our separate Presidency and Congress. (or, if no majority exists, by the confidence of different parties) The House of Lords can't do shit to stop them. The Monarchy can't do shit either. The Courts have a fairly limited authority--mostly to arbitrate among existing laws. They are independent but their scope is limited by the fact that British Constitutional Law is organic, and not assumed to be an already complete and perfectly self-consistent logical system. Various legal instruments that correspond to our written Constitution are fairly scant and don't pretend to wield much power over what statue law passed by Parliament can or cannot do. The past in other words cannot preemptorily veto the future there, as it routinely does here. Parliament makes laws, courts mainly enforce them. As a matter of Constitutional Conventional, no Parliament may bind the actions of a successor Parliament, and the Monarch cannot withold assent to any Act passed by the Parliament. The Prime Minister can't come from the House of Lords, and Lords can't stop anything the Commons have received a mandate from the electorate to do. This is the result not of a constitutional plan but rather of an evolutionary process in which the legislative body closest to the people steadily stripped all the rival centers of power of their authority. All of which means, a majority party in the House of Commons can do pretty much exactly as it proposes in its electoral platform and campaign pledges, constrained only by what the voters will accept or may be construed as having endorsed in the latest election. Compared to America, this is pure Tyranny of the Majority.

How I wish we had it!

If a majority in Parliament decide one morning that for example, chattel slavery is to be abolished, then slavery is history by that afternoon. And so it was: simple majority in Parliament abolished the slave trade and slavery. By contrast the American system with its check on the popular will by entrenched interests represented in the Senate would have prevented any bill of that nature from being sent to the President's desk probably forever, necessitating a civil war to resolve the impasse. If by some freak of procedure, such a bill escaped Congress before the Civil War and a President had signed it into law, the (Taney-led) Supreme Court would then have struck the law down as unConstitutional by noon of the next day. Going the route of Constitutional amendment would have been fruitless, as the states most dominated by slaveholder elites would have to agree and they certainly wouldn't. There is always another line of defense or obstruction open to an mobilized, wealthy faction in the American system, even if they are badly outvoted by majorities.

Compared to that there is essentially no check on the will of democratic majorities within the British system. The last vestige of a check was abolished by reforms stripping the House of Lords of veto authority over Commons in 1911 (perhaps hastening the reform of the US Senate?). Britons apparently do not quail in fear at the power of majorities, (that is to say, at their own power) only Americans are that dumb.

American fear of the tyranny of the majority stems from ancient theories disparaging democracy, which were current among educated gentlemen of the 18th century (gentlemen like our blindly worshipped Founders and Framers) but which were old even then, originating in sources as old as Plato.

According to this theory, which has become an unexamined bit of dogma in American Constitutionalism, the situation of an unchecked Parliament that is elected by ordinary people must necessarily lead to, first, the unwashed majority using the power of government to strip all wealth from the propertied class and enriching themselves under the leadership and incitement of demagogues; then secondly, the consequent destruction of the country's strength (because as all rich people know, without them and their irreplaceable leadership, the country will implode); and thence the country experiences a descent into lawless chaos; and lastly, as the only antidote to this chaos left, the country will accept the imposition of Cromwell style dictatorship with no civil liberties at all left to the people whatever their station in life. In this endstate, only personal loyalty to the dictator brings privileges, but even so there is never any guarantee of liberty, not even for the inner circle of the Dictator's lieutenants. However, where Plato theorized an eternal cycle of forms of government decaying into, or arising from each other, with aristocratic commonwealth giving way to oligarchy, oligarchy degenerating into theh mob rule of democracy, democracy (can you tell he hated it?) giving way to authoritarian tyranny, and tyranny eventually breaking up, thus allowing the rebirth of aristocracy, the 18th. century version of the antidemocratic argument simply posited democracy as a brief waystation on the oneway road to Hell, with a permanent police state (PLato's tyranny) at the end of it. Tyranny would prove far too strong over the rights of its citizens, but also probably too weak to prevent or fight off a foreign invasion.

Much like Locke's ridiculous ideas about individual property rights, the counterexample totally disproving this theory of a democratic staircase to Hell was soon handy for anyone to see. Britain itself began to provide it not too long after the American colonies went their own way. The Lords and the King were progressively reduced to figure heads in the century following the Napoleonic Wars, and electoral reforms (abolition of the Rotten Borough system) began to make the House of Commons truly representative: by 1911 the transformation of Monarchical England into "tyranny of the majority" Great Britain was complete. However, just like Locke's idea of the preexistence before society of the individual and his property, the success of the antidemocratic "Mob Rule" polemic has had little to do with its relation to the truth, and much more to do with its usefulness to an ascendant class looking to justify and institutionalize their power, without the old props of a national church, a system of peerages, or a Royal family.

How do the oligarchs get ordinary people to denigrate a form of government in which they, the people, would at last become empowered--by hammering on this doctrine of the Tyranny of the Majority constantly, as if there could be nothing worse in the world than living in a democracy!

And what do the Republicans CONSTANTLY attack the Democrats over-what is their refrain? To boil their message of the past decades down to one paragraph, the Republicans say the Democratic Party is out to liquidate the rich and any middleclass family that is getting ahead through taxation, and that the Democrats intend to give away their hardearned money to undeserving minorities and the poor in order to obtain their votes thus perpetuating their party's power; and that this all tends to the destruction of the country's strength and productivity, simultaneously encouraging the abandonment of respect for law and order amongst the lower classes, making us an easier target for our enemies. They say what the enemies of the people and democracy have always said.

When Democrats raise alarms about "the tyranny of the majority" they are doing the Conservatives' work FOR THEM by using and reinforcing their favorite, well-worn themes. Majorities can be tyrannical with regard to minorities, but the ONLY minority whose protection concerned James Madison, namely the rich, is always tyrannical by nature. So I'll take my chances with the majority instead, thank you!

Traditional American dogma about the dangers of direct majoritarian democracy stem from theories so old they make nation-state monarchy look like a new-fangled innovaton, and this dogma makes predictions about democracy which are belied by FACTS. Even a casual glance at parliamentary democracies around the world such as Great Britain or postwar Germany disproves the idea that democracy leads to social dissolution and tyranny. But do Americans ever take notice that their theories are unfounded, disproved, obsolete, baseless--not to mention at odd with their own interests as average citizens?
Oh HELL no.
Why do ordinary Americans believe in this crap then? Because they've been carefully taught to and because they worship unquestioningly the ideas of a generation long dead (and which didn't necessarily wish them well). If the Founders believed it, it must be eternally so!

Now, you don't have to LOVE the British parliamentary form of government or propose replacing ours with theirs to see that the success of their system invalidates certain key predictions made by the theory behind ours. And on what specific point is our creaking dogma mistaken? That the people cannot be trusted to govern themselves. And what assumption underlies that? That the people are completely stupid, shortsighted and greedy, that is why they have to be prevented from controlling the government. But the only significant check on Parliament is what the voters will allow to pass without punishing the party in power. If their voters were stupid shortsighted and greedy Britain would collapse. So, either we are not the equal of the British people, or we could succeed similarly in governing ourselves, if only our form of government would allow it. Their system is optimistic about the people, ours is pessimistic: and this is getting into a subject for another debate, but if you think about it, the assumptions that govern the system that governs us, to a large extent is determining what we're getting out of it, and what kind of citizens we are.
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borg5575 Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Wrong.
The founding fathers DID NOT "put it in there." There is no mention whatsoever in the Constitution of the filibuster. It's nothing more or less than a long standing senate rule that can legally be changed at any time.

If you look at history you will see many examples of the filibuster being used for evil purposes, such as thwarting civil rights legislation.

The there have been times like the present when the filibuster is used by the minority to protect the American people from a rogue majority like we have now in the Senate.

But lets be clear. The filibuster is not in the Constitution and can be eliminated at any time, although when all is said and done I don't think that the Rethugs will change it. They are too afraid that they might lose their majority in the future and need to use the filibuster themselves.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. They won't
Hagel has already come out against it, as has Shays, and you can bet that people like Chafee, Snowe and a few more will defect. No way it gets passed.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Shays is in the House.
But I've never heard definitely whether they need 50 or 51 votes for Cheney's ruling to stand.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. It can be eliminated at any time, BUT NOT WITH 51 VOTES!
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 10:15 PM by Hippo_Tron
Senate standing rules are not allowed to be changed with 51 votes. It requires at least a 3/5ths majority (it might be a 2/3rds I'm not sure).

The problem is that the GOP is claiming that the constitution requires an up or down votes on judges.

Here's what the constitution says (not direct quotes)

1) Advice and consent on appointments

2) Senate shall set its own rules

It doesn't say anywhere that there MUST be an up or down vote on judicial nominees and FURTHERMORE it doesn't say that there must be an up or down vote on judicial nominees except when the judiciary committee doesn't approve. The Senate is allowed to set its own precedents and rules for this thing and the standing precedent is that rules require more than a simple majority to end and measures require more than a simple majority to be brought to a vote.
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Stanchetalarooni Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. The reason it is called the nuclear option.......
.....is that the side who uses it sets off a firestorm like one has never seen before. It is devastating. It is meant to rule out all other options.
It is not called the firecracker option. Nor the dynamite option.
It is not called the bi-partisan option. It is the we-will-dominate-you-for eternity option. It is the my-way-or-the-highway option.
Go ask the Hibakusha what outcomes the nuclear options provided the citizens of Japan. Total domination!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. The filibuster ...
has served us well throughout our history. Sure, it's been used for purely political reasons at various times, but for the most part, it's protected this country from any majority that tries to take our goverment to the extremes. The filibuster is not the problem. The Neocons are.

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LimpingLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I thought you would explain to me how Neocons are limited?
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 02:30 PM by LimpingLib
I thought war was something that could be done by Presidential fiat?

Tell me how rare wars have been with every President in recent history (exclude Carter, dont lecture me on Carter I NEVER said there werent ANY peaceful Presidents but War is EASY to implement period).

Wow...what convincing arguments!
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Perhaps you can explain to me what you believe the alternative is
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 02:52 PM by BattyDem

The Neocons control the White House, the Congress and the media. The Judiciary is not under their control ... yet ... and the only thing preventing that is the filibuster.

So, we eliminate the filibuster and they take over the judiciary as well. Then what? Seriously ... I'm not trying to pick a fight with you ... I honestly want to know, what do we do then? What power will the minority have to stop anything? We won't have government representation and we won't have any way to fight them in court - so what happens then?

Your entire line of reasoning is based on us getting control again. The fact is, we're never getting control of the government again unless we get the voting machines fixed. It's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to fix things through legislation because we don't control anything, so it may very well end up going to the courts at some point. How will an extreme, RW Judiciary be of any help to us?

What is the alternative to the filibuster? What other power does the minority have? Please, enlighten me. I'm not being sarastic ... I'm serious. What else do we have? :shrug:


Like I said, the rules of our Democracy have served this country very well. We've hit a rough spot because we have some fascists trying to destroy everything America has ever stood for. I don't see how letting them do it by eliminating the rules that protect the minority will make us stronger.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Nonsense.
The filibuster has been used by the forces of reaction more often than the forces of progress. And it's profoundly undemocratic for loopholes written into the Constitution, by a wealthy class for their own use originally, to give rise to a situation in which a block of rural states representing less than 15% of the national population can completely forbid progressive legislation desired by the more populous, economically sucessful and (need I add it or is this not redundant?) BLUER states.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. It's good when one group gets to force their views on another
By your logic, and I use the term loosely here, it is perfectly OK for anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-everything right-wing judges to sail through confirmation in the Senate, since that's what "most" people want.

"Most" people thought segregation was fine. Were they right, too?
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Double Nonsense
Most people don't want those things. YOU think they do.
Civil Rights didn't get anywhere without the democratically passed Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act. For one hundred years the 14th Amendment may as well have not existed, until those legislative acts passed Congress. They passed because MOST people wanted them to.

You are way out of touch with how progress was actually made.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #35
53. MOST people in Congress want those things
and that's what matters. Maybe you need to unplug from your West Wing-fantasy world and look at the real-world composition of the government.

Progress is made through hammering out compromises 90% of the time, but, something tells me you're one of those absolutists who think that you have to have your way 100% of the time and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Never watched Westwing , can't see how your
reply is any kind of response to mine. Seems to be sheer personal invective.

As I said, actual progress was made through acts of Congress, much less through the existence of the 14th Amendment.

In case you can't follow the logical implications, that is almost the polar opposite of an Absolutist legalminded attitude or approach. Just because you lost 100% of the argument, doesn't mean I HAVE to have my way 100% of the time. By arguing that progress is made through the legislative body, I am guaranteeing myself NOT to get my way 100% of the time. I have to be patient and I have to work incrementally towards satisfactory resolutions through compromise.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. so you like the idea of us becoming a perpetual minority?
Because no matter HOW progressive the Congress becomes, no matter how forward-thinking, we won't get anywhere if we have to fight judges that are dead opposed to it. Congresses come and go like the tides and the turning of the seasons. Judges remain on the bench for a lifetime.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
38. Filibuster of anti-lynching and civil rights legislation
served us well throughout history?

There are a lot of horrible parts of our history connected to the filibuster, but I agree that getting rid of it now would probably be wrong.
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LimpingLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. DUers support the historic surfdom from Greek days it seems.
Sad.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. I didn't know ancient Greeks surfed
Κυματωγής επάνω!

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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
50. Oh yes, it was a major sport of the ancient Olympics.
Haven't you ever heard of that classical Greek sculpture, "The Windsurfer". Naked of course, like all ancient Greek athletes.}(
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not me, I love a good fillibuster
:D
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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. You suggest going even further than the nuclear option.
As I understand it - someone correct me if I'm wrong - the "nuclear option" refers only to judicial nominations. You want to end all filibusters, which is an incredibly dangerous proposal.
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. NO
You must have been asleep in high school English when the teacher discussed how

"Power Corrupts but Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".


We should do nothing that serves to further reduce our checks and balances and gives the majority more power. Even the Democrats, if we get back in power, are susceptible to corruption. We are not perfect.

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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yeah, that must be why the Republicans want to get rid of it
Because they're soooo concerned about passing progressive legislation. Uh huh. Right.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. Your idea is antithetical to the Democratic Party and to DU...
The filibuster is the Democrat's **last stand.** Like hell it should be ended!

Damn, who's side are you on, anyway? :shrug:
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borg5575 Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. No, he made some good points.
Everyone at DU doesn't necessarily have to march in lockstep. We can have sincere differences of opinion without sacrificing our ultimate goals.

It is true that the filibuster can be used for good at this time, but it's also true that it has been misused in the past and it might be again in the future if we Democrats retake the Senate and then the other side uses the filibuster to block progressive legislation. It can cut both ways.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
45. And in CLinton's first term
Bob Dole filibustered EVERYTHING Clinton tried to do. Mostly Dole succeeded in his thwarting efforts although his block of Senators in the redstate Mountain West and South represented FAR fewer people than a majority.

You may be amazed by how few people are represented by typical filibuster wielding reactionaries. During Clinton's first term, legislation (and nominations) died time after time thanks to the efforts of knuckledragging conservatives representing no more than 15% of the US population. Perhaps even worse, a mobilized faction of wealthy industries and individuals can secure the loyalty of a bloc of flyover country Senators with a little cash and determine the future of all legislation that touches their industry. The good people of South Gurnsey, who may not care about his industry benefactors either way, just keep returning ol' Sen-uh-tuh Carbide to Congress because the longer he's there, the more stink he raises in Jesus' name as he tries to repeal the 20th century, helping his quiet friends in the mining and chemical industry all along the way.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. So let's use the Nuclear Option ourselves,
when WE are in the majority. The repukes don't play fair. Why should we?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. Don't you change one thing about the checks & balances. Change
something that does not work like the electoral college. Do not touch the filibuster.

It means that draconian laws cannot pass. It means that judges must be agreed upon by both sides (what other kind of judge do you want?).

Do not fall for this.

This is Kool - Aide

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Didn't stop the Patriot Act
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. OMG IT DIDN'T STOP ONE THING IT IS USELESS!!1!!!11!
:eyes:
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Look every country in the World has a War Measures Act. Canada
used its in the 1970s October Crisis. They suspended people's rights for a few months. That is sort of normal for a terrorist crisis - even in Democracies. What is not so normal is the torture & other human rights abuses. This awfully strange war in Iraq. The fact that they did not get bin Laden when they could have.

Patriot Act going on so long and all is a sign of the nut-cases who are in power & need the fear to continue.

Parts of the Patriot Act are very odd. Some parts are not so odd.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. Actually I kind of agree
The Senate has always been the bastion of minority veto- and it was created to be the last line of defense for the oligarchy. Originally you didn't even vote for Senators and one Senator who had essentially bought his seat through patronage in his home State's Legislature, could derail ANYTHING the Representatives wanted to do, even though they were elected by the people and might be in unanimous agreement on some measure.

Basically I'd like to see the Senate abolished. Denaturing it by destroying the filibuster might be in the long arc of history the critical step towards demoting the role of a privileged class and their chamber of delegates down towards a ceremonial role like that of the British House of Lords or the German upper house.

It's tricky dangerous shit though to be tampering with.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Your argument doesn't work
The Senate is popularly elected now, so your argument about it being the bastion of "the priveleged and wealthy" doesn't hold water. That and the idea behind having only 1/3rd of the Senate elected at a time as well as 6 year terms was to prevent the tyranny of the majority. It is there to prevent the kind of power that exists when you get the man on the white horse.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Amazingly enough, despite your overconfident subject line
I don't find anything you said persuasive, or even on point.

Count how many Senators aren't millionaires, have a look at the average cost of a Senatorial race, and then get back to me about the class nature of the Senate. In the 19th century it was said it was easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle and enter heaven than for a poor man to enter the United States Senate. No matter how the election rules changed in 1913, that saying is still true today.

Of course the Senate works as the bastion of minority veto, that's the central feature of the Senate! The House can't veto things, the Senate can. A minority of opinion representing one region of the country can't stop things in the House, they stop them in the Senate.
A wealthy mobilized faction can't stop legislation by controlling a minority of seats in the House, they can in the Senate.

That's what the Senate is fucking THERE for. The rotation of seats up for reelection in either house has NOTHING to do with the point I'm making about the purpose of the Senate's veto authority over the House.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. The House can Veto things actually
As I mentioned in my other post below, the House is an extremely undemocratic institution. They are ruled by the tyranny of the majority leadership. In actuality it is the bastion of power for a party that controls the congress but not the White House. The Speaker is given de facto veto power because he can simply not allow measures to come to a vote. Right now the House also acts essentially as an exercise of the GOP's veto power. Bush has never used the veto power once in his presidency because he wants the appearance that there are no problems between him and the congress. Instead of vetoing things by using his veto power, he just has Tom DeLay kill them in the House. The Assault Weapons Ban is a perfect example of this, DeLay killed it in the House so that Bush could take two sides of the issue. Bush promised to renew it a few years ago but then realized that, that would piss off his base so he just had DeLay kill it and claim that he "couldn't get the votes".
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Then the words have lost their meaning
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 11:39 PM by kenny blankenship
(but that's hardly surprising anymore)
See, veto USED to mean the people's representatives wanted something, and voted for something, and then that thing was forbidden by ANOTHER institution of power, which has a perogative over the first body, and which being higher in rank, said "tough shit, voting for it isn't good enough. It displeases us, and it will not pass." Kings used to be able to do that. In the fine print of the Constitution, Article 1 Section 7, there is provision for overriding the Presidential veto --however you'll notice if you go looking for it, that there's no such provision for the House to override the Senate's veto. If a bill fails to pass in the Senate, no size of majority even total unanimity in the House can override and continue its forward motion.

What you are doing is confusing "parliamentary procedure", old as the hills of Rome, with veto perogative, which in our system resides in the Presidency but ALSO (and more quietly and interestingly) in the Senate.

See, the danger of the Presidency is that the office was always subject to the voice of the people. The President might not veto things the leading citizens of our great land would want vetoed. He might fail to do so, because as a popularly elected official representing the entire country, he might succumb to popular pressures instead of localized influences. Even though the President would probably always be drawn from the ranks of the elite, there was always the chance that he might go native on them, or that the hoi polloi would manage someday to elect one of their own. (Shivers!) Therefore the Senate would see to it that all measures passed out of the House would have to clear the hurdle of elite approval before even reaching the President's desk. In its original composition, the Senate was practically a self-selected body of elite family sons. (It hasn't changed all that much in this respect, except the pretense to aristocracy has degenerated into rank oligarchy) By the original rules, specifically Senate Rule 22, one such pedigreed individual could stand in the path of anything, by keeping debate open on a bill indefinitely. (Very useful if you've inherited a bunch of slaves and several sections of river bottom land. Busybodies will want to take your slaves from you, but with a reasonably priced Senate seat, you can destroy their plans, just by a refusal to stop talking!) Senate Rule 22 has been amended several times begining in the 20th century, the last occasion in 1975 iirc., when ahem -DEMOCRATS- loosened the requirements needed for cloture from 67 votes down to 60 so that the Republican side of the Senate could not filibuster them anymore. Well well, what's sauce for the goose as they say...

I hope this nasty and highly disingenuous progression ends eventually with the elimination of the U.S. Senate entirely, may it rot in pieces, together with its pernicious influence over the Electoral College. It's too much to hope that I'll live to see it though.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. But the House of Representatives DOESN'T represent the people
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 12:03 AM by Hippo_Tron
What you describe is the way that the founding fathers INTENDED things to be. The House of Representatives was supposed to be the peoples' house and the members were supposed to be liable to the people. Guess what, THIS IS NOT THE CASE. The House is a dictatorship and the dictator is Tom DeLay. The members of the House are only allowed to speak when the leadership lets them. They are only allowed to serve on the committees that the leadership lets them. They are only allowed to amend legislation in the ways that the leadership lets them (if they let them at all). And guess what? It would take an act of god to overthrow Tom DeLay because gerrymandering doesn't allow for partisan shift in the House. The minority with veto power that you discuss as existing in the Senate exists in the House as well. They are called the Republican "majority" and they exist because of gerrymandering.

Abolishing the Senate will not throw the country to the tyranny of the majority. It will throw the country to the tyranny of the gerrymandered and the tyranny of the electoral college.

Now if we were to FIX these problems, then I might reconsider my stance on the existence of the Senate. But right now the Senate (which ironically, as you point out, is supposed to be the house that represents the special interests) is the ONLY thing standing in the way of the complete and total destruction of the country as we know it.

BTW you claim that the Senate is disproportionately representative of the elites. You are absolutely correct about this. However, you can't honestly tell me that the House isn't also disproprtionately made up of affluent white males as well. Sure, there is MORE racial and socioeconomic diversity in the House than in the Senate, but it is still not nearly representative of the American populace as a whole.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. But the House is less democratic than the Senate
Senators ARE elected democratically now a days AND a reasonable amount of them actually have to run for re-election. 390 out of 435 members of the house are safe meaning that they can do whatever the fuck they want and not worry about their re-election.

The founding fathers would go absolutely nuts if they saw congress in action today. The two year term limits for House reps were supposed to make them liable to their constituents. But most of them are liable to their constituents in no way whatsoever. Senators were supposed to think of the big picture and not worry about re-election. But Senators, despite their 6 year terms are almost always worried about their re-election because of the big money that is spent to unseat them.

Even if we were to fix this and reverse the chambers back to their original roles, I still think that the Senate is an important institution in the checks and balances system. The minority should have a voice in the process and in the Senate, they do.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
40. End the filibuster and we will never be in power again
Part of the reason that Republicans want to get rid of it is because they don't plan to give up power any time soon.

There won't be anymore fair elections. Congressional districtics will be redrawn as necessary in order to keep the House, they can keep control of the Senate with fearmongering, character assasination and exploitation, and they can keep the White House thanks to Diebold.
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StudentOfDarrow Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. The filibuster is a tool used to promote democracy, not partisan gain.
If a nominee, who will serve for the rest of their life, is unacceptable to 40 Senators (and theoretically, 40% of the country) then we can find someone better.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
48. 100% wrong
And why would any liberal encourage the destruction of the only real legislative weapon we have right now? Sheesh.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
49. I say we play the Republican game.
The Republicans never would have tolerated anyone going after the fillibuster when they were in the minority, and we shouldn't either. Once we get a majority though (if that ever happens) then we should go after the fillibuster like gangbusters and pull out all the stops to end it.

I'm getting really tired of the Democrats trying to play fair, while the Republicans play for keeps, and for power at all costs.

They've been playing hardball for decades. It's time that we play a little hardball of our own, or risk virtual political extinction.

I apologize for this post. I'm feeling just a little bit cynical right now.
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