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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:23 AM
Original message
"Fascism is liberal"
I was having a conversation with a conservative friend of mine, and I accused Republicanism of being parallel with Fascism in many ways, and he responded that Fascism is actually more liberal than conservative, in that the government controls and regulates all industries. I told him that in a fascist government, large corporations and big government are mutual beneficiaries of each other, and the government certainly places no restriction on the growth of corporate power. Of course, he would have none of it, and continued to assert fascism's "liberal" roots.

Just thought I'd share the delusional thinking with you all.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Refer him to a political science 101 textbook.
There is also that website, politicalcompass.org, I think.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Next time
remember what that icon of fascism, Benito Mussolini, said:

"Fascism would be more appropriately called 'corporatism.'"

Then punch the Republican in the nose. Sometimes the problem lies in no blood getting stuck on the way to their brain, and you have to shake it loose.
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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I mentioned that
I mentioned Mussolini's quote, ""The first stage of fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power." He took that to mean that the state somehow controls corporate power in an unfair way.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. it is true that the fascists and national socialists
controlled industry and "what" industry produced. They were gearing up for war, so industrial output was rerouted to reflect the needs of the state. There is a dichotomy between fascisms nationlistic beliefs that do mirror the uber patriotism of the republicans, and the monetary/economic control that the left feels is necessary.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. you are my new hero. . .:-)
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. something I noticed in the neo-Nazi Ohio riot
The coverage kept stressing the Neo-Nazis were from the "National Socialists Party". Gosh, I wonder why.
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noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. See that's a prime example as to how the facists in this country have dupe
duped people like your friend. They've got them believing that the true evil lies in having a govt which serves as a watchdog over corporations and rich people.

I.E. Rich people who are forced to pay out millions in taxes (but yet are still millions richer than you or I will ever be) is very very wrong and should stopped.

Nevermind that if it was stopped the burden of government benefits that we receive on a daily basis (drive on govt funded streets? attend govt funded schools? use govt funded police/firemen for protection? support your govt funded troops?) would completely go to hell due to underfunding.

Likewise corporations being made out to be the victims of union terror, when in fact they rake in billions in profit yet claim they can't afford to pay out decent healthcare and wages.


Then to top it off these people, these Republicans who are not part of the Republican Party's plan for America actually believe that it is THEM and their paltry $30k a year that the big bad liberal government is after when they talk about ceasing tax cuts for the rich.

:mad:
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. ah yes. . .this is one of the directives issued by the wingnut Fuhrer
using their typical debate technique of twisting the argument around and accusing the other side of the same thing. I call it "the schoolyard game". . a sort of "No I'm not - YOU are" sort of thing that accomplishes nothing.

But what continues to be disturbing is where these ideas come from. . .and how easily they seem to be decimated to the general public..or..the party faithful. To me, this is what is truly dangerous about them - they view reality as nothing more than an opinion, and propaganda as the first step in establishing their world view...one that is often based on nothing but political gain.

They don't claim to be in a "culture" war for nothing - and they conduct themselves as if they ARE in war. . .and the rest of us seem to either play defense or selectively engage them. I'm glad you had that conversation - they absolutely do not like the fascism label, which is why they try to turn around and pin it on liberals. But the ingredients are obviously indicative of their side. . .and, by the way, his response to you, which was refusal to accept any ideas other than those he is programmed with already.

Wingnuts love to pretend that they are something other than what they are - but the more they mess up, the more contradictory their responses, the more their deceptions will catch up with them. And they ARE deceptions and deliberately so - these people believe that in war, there are no values except winning. And they conduct their "discussions" in that manner.

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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Conveying Meaning with Labels...
Part of the problem with the label 'fascist' is that there are competing definitions of the term, competing understandings of what went wrong, and different manifestations related to the fascist movement in Italy, Germany, Spain, and other countries around WWII.

I.e., it might be better to consider the range of understandings of Fascism, more in depth... particularly...

Among conservatives who wished to understand the nature of fascism adn fight the likes of the Nazi's:

Some (William F. Buckley), following Voegelin, would see Fascism as part of a modern variant of Gnosticism that wasn't happy with seeking transcendental escapes and building metaphysical systems, but that wished to "Immanentize the Christian Eschaton" in various ways, ranging from liberalism to positivism to freudianism to marxism to fascism, each manifestation being a way to force a vision into existence in spite of reality, allowing the consequences to be what they may, in the name of the utopy or social engineering, as an alternative to the real limits that frustrate us in reality, creating yet more chaos, which is then pointed out as a reason to continue to impose the system/vision/worldvies in place of reality, without concern for facts. There is a bit to this analysis that does in fact apply to the millenialists/Left Behind folkes, theocrats on the religious right (particularly the extremely conservative covenant theology/presbyterian/dominionist/calvinist types, and the Christian Nation types who determine foreign policy on end-times prophey)... this is based on applying some insights of ancient political science of Plato and Aristotle to the modern world, considering differences in the modern world according to an analysis of modern political/psychological experience.

Others (Allan Bloom, author of Closing of the American Mind), following Leo Straus, would see Fascism in terms of Tyranny, a result of an erosion of the culture of the West through relativism and the sort of radical skepticism that doesn't even seek to understand reality or truth anymore, again, a line of criticism that can certainly apply to the current regime, through reference to the tendencies towards the tyranny found in both Oligarchy and Democracy (profiteering, corruption, and mob demagoguery and scapegoating, appealing to divisiveness of this faction or that of the people), through pointing out the corrosive effect of the sort of moral relativism/situational ethics that excuses torture, that is not firm about the morality of human rights, that undermines the traditions of the constitution and bill of rights, that is so closed to the idea of finding truth and understanding the real world that facts about lies regarding yellow cake in Nigeria, and the failure to find WMD in Iraq, is trivialized by people who could care less about facts, etc. There are contradictions in the Straussianism of the neo-cons, but it would be for an informed opponent to call them on it. Their looking for hidden messages in Arabs through relying on spies and intelligence agencies has lead to reckless assumptions, if they were sincere, or exposed 'noble lies' if they were not sincere, and either way, the point of such intelligence is either to get it right or not to get caught in a lie, for someone with this sort of view. Again their view builds on on Plato and Aristotles political philosophy, combined with their own esoteric reading of a hidden layer in their philosophy, and a criticism of later philosophers like Machiavelli, all with an eye to hidden meanings covered for the sake of social responsibility, in the case of ancient philosophers. The allegation of social irresponsibility on the part of the neo-cons, is a particularly vulnerable spot, as it hits at great hypocrisy on their own principle.

As can be seen, the basic insights of these thinkers, offer grounds for severely criticizing the Bush administration, though it would help, if one used such insights, that one also considered whatever may apply on the left, as well, to avoid the charge of hypocrisy, or at least one would wish to indicate how on the grounds of these and other considerations, it is the current Bush Administration that is particularly harming America and is the most crucial concern, and faced with the Bush Administration's own bizaare mixture of political features, Democrats may be much more open to re-evaluating their weaknesses.

On the non-liberal Left:

A rigidly economic analysis, as found on the Left in Trotskyite circles, is rather limited in that the features of hostility to unions and communists, the alliance between lower 'middle-class' (lesser borgiousie/professional classes/small business people in economic crisis) with the 'bad asses' (lumpen-proletariate) or 'FU boys', can be read into all kinds of movements/parties/regimes, and the implied answer of radical class consciousness in unions, does not adequately address the potentials of working class people in general being far too authoritarian, pragmatic, selfish, etc., to be interested in non-authoritarian, sane, workable, reasonable solutions i.e., working with democrats. An appeal to the real interests of working class people, of people who have lost hope in being able to be working class, and in small busines owners and various professional working people, to more sanity and alliance against the real abusers/the corrupt, big business abuses, big government interference/oppression/authoritarianism that effects private life, can make a big impact, and it is this aspect of the analysis that seems especially useful, in breaking some out of the 'enchantment' of authoritarians and demagogues. The principles of solidarity among movements/struggles, and the analysis of demagoguery, from this sort of theory, is extremely helpful, too, especially as it relates to broader solidarity, and how there is no real useful solidarity possible with bigots/authoritarians or the sort of conspiracists that feed demagoguery and bigotry.

Among the Social Sciences:

The concepts of the 'true believer', the "Protean Self" by Lifton which goes into a concept of the Fundamentalist Self versus the Protean Self, the literature on sociopaths and narcissists such as "The Sociopath Next Door", seem to be among the more helpful stuff in dealing with some of the psychology/sociology.

I would add Voegelin's Sience, Politics, and Gnosticism, and other works, here, despite their inaccurate use of the term Gnostic and other problems (the axe he grinds against liberalism and the apparent blind spot to problems with conservatism, the categorical error of using the term Gnostic in this way, though what he is describing certainly has its insights, the way ancient Gnosticism is distorted or contradicted by the modern phenomena he describes, makes the use of the term Gnostic for it, inappropriate, but that shouldn't prevent some insight from reading it if you keep in mind that he uses 'gnostic' in his own way, etc.), as this work does deal with the paradoxes and inner conflicts that manifest in a desire for certainty and the building of systems and imposing dreams by force on reality in a way that destroys order, instead of the uncertainty and humility of faith that involves not being entirely sure and not necessarily having a whole system/set of answers. It relates to the Protean Self, in certain ways.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Hi carl_pwccaman!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Thanks.
I wrote some for Unknown News for a while there, still do from time to time. My good friend Underground Panther has been wanting me on here for a while now, I just haven't got around to posting a lot. Thanks for the welcome.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. There are elements of 'leftist' ideology in Fascism ...
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 12:53 AM by Trajan
But your 'friend' paints an incomplete picture which ignores the MANY elements of Fascism that form a strictly 'rightist' agenda ....

Look up 'Fascism' in wikipedia, and you will be transported into a clearer view of things ...

Your friend is full of shit, trying to carry a few similarities into an extreme and exact replica: its a nonsensical argument ...

Straighten his ass out ....
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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. yeah
sorry, in my original post I wasn't so detailed. I mentioned to him other similarities between fascism and republicanism: extreme, unquestioning patriotism, obsession with military might, mixing of religion and government, along with of course the corporatist nature of the fascist ideology. He pretty much ignored it. I'm sure his mind is unchanged.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Then you have no choice ....
but to tell him "yer up yer arse" .... and walk away ...

THAT you must do .... I am leftist and you MUST MUST MUST listen to me ......
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Disagree
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 01:20 AM by William Seger
"There are elements of 'leftist' ideology in Fascism ..."

Maybe if you include Stalinism (a perversion of communism) as a "leftist ideology," since Stalinism and Fascism are both totalitarian, but Stalinism and Fascism are very decidedly anti-liberal. That's why AJH032's friend is full of shit.

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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Easy to say now, but I knew alot of Stalin apologists
who were devout American communists. They spent years arguing with me on the merits of the soviet system...ignoring the totalitarian nature completely.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. Tell your damn friend to read these fucking statements from Mussolini:
The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State--a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values--interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people. (p. 14)

Fascism recognises the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which diverent interests are coordinated and harmonised in the unity of the State. (p.15)

Yet if anyone cares to read over the now crumbling minutes giving an account of the meetings at which the Italian Fasci di Combattimento were founded, he will find not a doctrine but a series of pointers… (p. 23)

"It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!... I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism." (p. 24)

Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. (p. 32)

The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporate, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organised in their respective associations, circulate within the State. (p. 41).

Benito Mussolini, 1935, The Doctrine of Fascism, Firenze: Vallecchi Editore.

Now tell your friend to pull his head out of his ass.
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. 'liberal' meaning...
To Mussolini, to anyone at that time, 'liberal' meant a number of things that it does not mean today, along with a few that it still means.

I.e., 'liberal' meant 'free market liberal', non-intrusive upon business people, and also supporting of 'liberal democracy' with its property rights, voting rights, civil rights, parliamentarianism and rule of law that supports free trade and contract law under stable consistent rule of law. So it meant something not quite libertarian, nor exactly Democrat or Republican, but inclusive of all of these, generally, in the sense that it included civil libertarianism (Bill of Rights), constitutional democracy and rule of law equally to citizens, and economic policies that allowed for businesses to operate without undue constraint or domination/ownership by government.

What Mussolini actually did, involved saying 'screw you' to individual rights, to businesses, in the sense that if either didn't follow the dictates of the State under its Leader, it would be dealt with severely, and the Leader could do as he pleased, whenever he pleased, to direct corporations or the people, as he wished. Yes the government was corporate, and Mussolini was the CEO, no doubt about it, the other "ceo's" had to kiss his ass or drink castor oil, even the mafia were made to play according to the fascists rules, in the sense that they were not allowed to cross him or to appear to be an independent power in their own right.

The word 'Totalitarian' means it when it has the word 'total' in it, that is the tendency, TOTAL domination by the government. Liberals do not want TOTAL domination by the government, and neither do Conservatives, to the extent that BOTH are defenders of what could be called a classically liberal democracy or constitutional republic. At issue is the degree our country is moving AWAY from those principles, and the fact that 'conservative' is tending to mean a confusion of other things, at this point in our history, and it is the so-called 'conservatives', who are dominating each branch of government right now, so if we want to take care of America and its constitution and bill of rights, those are the ones we need to deal with, as the most immediate danger. To do so with the Democratic Party, it would be helpful to keep the principles in mind, lest we win the battle but loose the war.
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coda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. Ask Benito....


"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary...



DICTIONARY

re·ac·tion·ar·y
adj.
Characterized by reaction, especially opposition to progress or liberalism; extremely conservative.

n., pl. -ar·ies.
An opponent of progress or liberalism; an extreme conservative.


THESAURUS
reactionary
(adjective)

Vehemently, often fanatically opposing progress or reform: die-hard, mossbacked, ultraconservative. See politics.

noun

A person who vehemently, often fanatically opposes progress and favors return to a previous condition: die-hard, mossback, ultraconservative.



....does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal."


-- Benito Mussolini



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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Mussolini's definition of fascism as corporatism
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), Fascist Dictator of Italy
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. Is that why the fascist Nazi's despised the communist Bolsheviks?
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 02:51 AM by LaPera
Fascism is on the far right of the political spectrum...Just as communism could be called the far left of the political spectrum.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. not so simplistic
it depends on what your criteria is for rating left to right. Is it dependant on how much government intervention there is in the individuals daily life? In terms of centrally controlled govt, communism/socialis/fascism is very close. Or do you lay out on a linear line internationalism on the left and nationalism on the right. Communists were professed internationalists, while the national socialist/fascists were nationalists.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
17. ROTFLMAO!!! Oh my GAWD rightwingnuts are just TOO STUPID!!!
STUPID MFing rightwingnuts!

How fucking embarrassing, really.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. Look at it this way...

If corporations were people and the only people who mattered were those who ran corporations in lockstep with the government, then fascism would be like socialism. Oh, and legally, coporations are treated much like people, except in a true democracy they can't vote.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. Try this.
Show him some political compasses/maps. Then, explain that he is confusing fascism and totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is often economically "left" and fascism is often economically "right." Both are authoritarian states and he is probably confusing them.

A dictionary definition might explain it, too.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
20. I've heard this from a conservative friend of mine, too
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 08:06 AM by deutsey
He cited the "socialism" in "national socialism" as his rationale.

When I slammed him with an email chock full of facts about what fascism actually is (especially Mussolini's quote about fascism really being corporatism), he dropped the subject.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
22. And that's why you see the humholes wearing swastikas today...
...calling for more food stamps, gun control, reproductive choice and more aid to unwed mothers...

Really, how dumb does someone have to be to actually buy that argument? My own feeling is that even your acquaintance doesn't really believe it, but thinks it's a swell rhetorical trick to confuse other people...
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
26. Some time ago, before the election of 04 and after the Iraq
invasion I was posting on a forum that was not political.

But in their discussions, there were people who also confused the meaning of fascism. It seemed like they only knew it was a bad thing.

I did point out that fascism is pretty much identified with right wing beliefs.

I honestly believe that aside from the rigid ideologues all around the political spectrum, recent years have brought about a huge amount of learning about the world and things political.

The time when it didn't seem to matter to individuals that happened sometime between Vietnam and Sept 11 has come to an end.

It is all personal now, it always was but now it has become apparent and hard to hide from.

Maybe ask your friend for one source that supports his position.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
28. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Excuse me while I go puke from laughing so hard.

Fascism is "liberal"? What a crock. Take a look:



The kind of fascism we have right now is RW fascism--or the authoritarian right.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. Fascism is when the government consolidates powers and...
takes away rights from the people. Corporate collusion with the government is also part of it too. Your "friend" is no friend.
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