Who killed JFK???

[DemInDistress]

Excellent factumentary about the JFK-Bush Connection.After I viewed
this 93 minute shocker I have no doubt in my mind it was Poppy bush
dick nixon and the plumbers.Much of this video is supported with docu
ments.Has anyone else seen this video?


http://jackblood.netfirms.com/home/multimedia.html

scroll down to the last selection...

[texpatriot2004]

1. Haven't seen this video yet but I agree with you on the players.nt

[DemInDistress]

3. Tex..check out this video

I promise you wont be disappointed.My dial-up took 2 hours to download
but every minute was a new find that went unchallenged.Tonight may be
too late for you but try to watch tomorrow...its very interesting and
damning.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. What helps with me to back this up

is the photo of Poppy at the Dallas Texas police station (you can tell it's him) and the memo he sent Kennedy and than he called up and told about Oswald moments after it happened. How did he know so fast? He and Nixon are the only people who don't have a story of where they were when Kennedy died. Nixon made up a story but Poppy has never told where he was. He just claims he doesn't remember. :eyes: My mother remembers for goodness sakes and she was a little girl. I don't buy that crap. Nixon also made reference a lot to something called Operation Zapata and Poppy had an oil company in Texas called Zapata.

[Old and In the Way]

75. On numerous occaisions, he's publically stated "he couldn't recall"

where he was. That was before the previously classified FBI document was released. In the memo, Bush called the FBI to establish his location alibi (traveling to Dallas from Tyler, Texas), and that he thought the FBI should check out his Republican opponent who was running for Congress. Killing a few birds with one stone, so to speak.

[Neil Lisst]

4. Dulles and Hoover had to be involved. CIA and FBI both.

They were both involved. It could never had happened without their involvement and directing of all the keys events.

[texpatriot2004]

5. Yep. nm

[DemInDistress]

8. Yes neil...Dulles.Prescott Bush/Hoover

and many others.Great history lesson also.its really worth a look.

[FreedomAngel82]

18. I wonder if Johnson was involved too personally

If you watch the motercade they did a lot of wrong things on that day according to intelligence rules. They let him ride in the car unarmed to where someone could shoot at him. Than one point the motercade makes a turn and there's no protection on him after that and they all go to Johnson's car. While Kennedy is being burried Johnson is shaking hands and making deals to stay in Vietnam. It's now known that Kennedy was going to pull out of Vietnam and Robert too more than likely.

[Neil Lisst]

2. Poppy Bush was probably involved. He was deep into Cuba

and the issues relating to the gulf of Mexico. He was already doing alleged work in the gulf than some think was a CIA front company.

Zapata.

-------
peep today's new comic
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

[DemInDistress]

7. Neil..yes Poppy was deep into Cuba

the end of this video clearly states poppy was using an island off Cuba for nefarious operations.Its the best JFK video ever seen by me.
I just watched the Discovery Channel,JFK-the Magic Bullet.Clearly its
a whitewash unlike JFK-the Bush Connection which implys Poppy and the
Plumbers had went to Dallas on the fateful day..
Its worth watching or I'll never post again..

[FreedomAngel82]

21. Zapata was also an oil company

It could've been like Brewster Jennings with the CIA but really do deals and stuff. And don't forget someone posted a letter once Bush wrote to someone in Cuba telling them what a good job they were doing of "telling the truth".

[Neil Lisst]

31. Zapata Oil is what I was talking about ....

Bush and the Lietkes, who helped Maurice Stans launder $50,000 for the White House, so it could be used to pay ... drum roll ... the Watergate burglars in 1972.

They're killers.

[Old and In the Way]

77. "Zapata", "Houston", and "Barbara"

The 3 CIA ships involved with the Bay of Pigs invasion. Kennedy never sent in the AF to provide cover that illegal action.

HW Bush's father, Prescott "Trading with the Nazi Enemy" Bush, was Nixon's mentor and encouraged him to run for Congress.

[Neil Lisst]

92. Old, you are on money, buddy.

I wondered if anyone here would know that. I threw out the Zapata reference to see if anyone knew about the CIA ships with the Bush connection for the Bay of Pigs.

--------------------------
Speaking of pigs, Bush is one
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

[expatriot]

6. quit it. stop. this is insane.

there are so many facts and issues out in the open as to why Bush is evil, even if (and it is a HUGE even if) this conspiracy crap is true... don't you see that it is political suicide to even be seen with this crap? Progressives want political progress and these kind of wild crackpot crap only serves to disempower us.

[texpatriot2004]

9. Sorry expat but the research is there to back it up. n.t

[DemInDistress]

11. Thanks Tex for the support...nt

[DemInDistress]

10. its not insane..

have an open mind and watch the video before you go off the wall on me....

[Wapsie B]

12. It's only insane because we've allowed the righties to frame the debate

once again. Anyone who believes anything other than the Warren Commission Report is labeled as a crazy grassy knoller. Good way to stifle debate.

[texpatriot2004]

13. It's not a conspiracy if it's true. n.t

[hootinholler]

63. If it's true, it *is* a conspiracy n/t

[jobycom]

19. I once started a thread claiming that Oswald killed Kennedy.

I backed it up with evidence and documentation and witness testimony that he was the lone shooter, laying out everything from eye-witness testimony, ear witness testimony, ballistics, medical documentation, and everything else, and I shot down every other theory out there, or at least the backbones of the main ones. For over two hundred posts every one told me I had no evidence, and all the evidence was on their side, even though not a one of them cited anything I hadn't disproven in my OP.

So good luck trying to talk sense, exP. On this issue, DUers start to sound like neocons in their logic and reasoning. I'm going to bed. But I'll tell you you are right. It might make the beat-down go better for you.

Nite.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. But there isn't truth to the Oswald story

Even on the Discovery Channel last night they proved the "magic bullet" theory was wrong and it had to be at least two bullets. So if the commission lied about the "magic bullet" theory than why do you believe it was Oswald? I don't believe it was him. I believe he was just a scapegoat. Poppy Bush called in and told about Oswald immediatley. How else did he know? Research him and Cuba. There's so much proof out there. Remember also that Bush AND Nixon were in Dallas the same day before Kennedy arrived. Why? Nixon claimed he was campaigning at a Coca Cola factory but why would Bush be there?
This page lays it out for you, but you should do the research yourself.

Link: http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush.htm

Bush was in Dallas the day Kennedy was killed as was Nixon. Nixon left a few hours before Kennedy arrived.

At the time of JFK's death Bush lied that he was a high ranking official in the CIA. He claimed "it's another George Bush". How many George Bush's do you know who's involved in the political life at that time?

Bush allowed the escape of a convicted terrorist from prison to go to work for him as an undercover CIA asset in Iran-Contra.

Bush has released another convicted terrorist.

Both these terrorists were present on Dealey Plaza on 11/22/1963.

Both these terrorists were convicted for killing 73 people by blowing up an airliner.

Bush is personal friends with a close associate of these convicted terrorists, who was also a participant in Iran Contra.

Bush has taken a leading role as CIA official in structuring/organizing these terrorists in effective organizations.

If junior can do all he's doing now why couldn't Poppy be involved in killing Kennedy? Remember what Kennedy wanted to do with the CIA and remember that Bush was a high ranking official in the CIA.

There is a lot more at the link above. Also, check out these links:
http://www.davidicke.net/tellthetruth/coverups/bronfmanbush.html

http://www.clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.shtml

[jobycom]

43. Then your Discovery Channel special was flat wrong from the beginning

First, it wasn't a magic bullet. The position of Kennedy and Connally meant that the bullet traveled in a straight line through both men. You can draw a trajectory, using the actual position of the two men (Connally's seat was lower and slightly to the left of Kennedy's, and Connaly was turned in his seat towards the sound of the first shot he heard. JFK, on the other hand, hunched forward at the first shot, and he slumped naturally, anyway), from the bullet wound in Connally's leg up to the SBD window. Any argument that starts off denying that is immediately proven to be based on popular mythology rather than facts. Hundreds of computer models have shown that bullet trajectory to be perfectly straight.

None of Bush's later crimes prove he was involved any more than we could argue that Charles Manson was Jack the Ripper.

As for the name George Bush, it's very common, and not even an unusual pseudonym to create. Why would a high ranking CIA official call up to finger a patsy in a frame-up and leave his own name? That's ludicrous.

You can make a whole string of connection from anything to anything else. Play the Kevin Bacon game. I have a very good argument that my mother killed JFK, in fact. She didn't, but the argument is based entirely on fact. (She lived near Oswald in New Orleans, she was engaged to a Cuban rebel who returned to Cuba to fight for Castro)

All of these arguments fall apart in one simple place. The three shots all came from the SBD. All of the motorcade witnesses (I was friends with one) and the majority of the witnesses on the ground that day told the police that the shots came from that general direction (You will here people say otherwise about the people on the ground, but those numbers are padded by people who came forward years later, and by some who claimed the shot came from above but whose comments were flat distorted by conspiracy buffs later). Three men watched the motorcade from the window below Oswald, and saw the rifle sticking out the window, and heard the shots. Others saw a figure in that window, as well.

Now, go from a reverse angle. There was a bullet wound on Kennedy's throat. It's in all the autopsy pictures. Where did that bullet come out if that was an entry wound? How did it get to his throat through the windshield or side window without breaking either? How did that bullet not strike Connaly first? (That's the part that amuses me--all the anti-"magic bullet" folk draw pictures as though Connaly were sitting right in front of JFK. Okay, if he was, how did Kennedy get shot in the throat?) If the throat wound was an exit wound, where was the entry wound other than the one entry wound we can see photgraphed in the autopsy photos? There are no others. So Kennedy had a hole just beneath his right shoulder blade, and a hole in his neck just to the left and slightly lower than the wound in his back. (The wound on his neck was puckered, like an exit wound, but I'll ignore that.) JFK was hunched forward slightly, as can be seen in the Zapruder film. So how did that happen? Either they are two seperate wounds, in which case there are three wounds in Kennedy (counting the head shot) and at least one in Connaly (and according to conspiracy people, it was more than one in Connaly).

That's four shots, and while some people claim there was a fourth shot, experts say three. There are recordings of the incident, so we know there weren't five or six, or however many it would have taken to make all the wounds if you discount the "magic bullet". Even if there were four you can tell from Zapruder that the first one didn't hit anyone.

Or else, you have to say that the wounds in Kennedy are from the same bullet. If it's the same wound, where was it fired from? Either it went upwards from in front of JFK (through Connally and the unbroken windows?) or it came from behind, up and to the right, where everyone in the motorcade and the majority of witnesses that day claimed it came from. If you were an independent investigator, which would you conclude? That someone sitting on Kennedy's lap shot him, unseen by everyone, or that someone from behind and up to the right of Kennedy shot him, from exactly the spot that most witnesses claim they heard shots and some witnesses claim they saw a man with a rifle?

Okay, once you've concluded where that shot came from, you have to decide where it went. What was in front and to the left of Kennedy? If you draw a trajectory from that window to Kennedy's back then through his neck, taking into account the slouch you can see in the Zapruder film, and the positions of the seats in the car, where does that bullet go? It goes into Connaly. There's no other place it could have gone.

Well, Connaly didn't die. We know there was no bullet left in Connaly's torso. So the bullet had to come out. That takes care of two of Connaly's wounds. Let's say we don't believe the video and our eyes, and try to argue that Connaly wasn't twisting in his seat, sitting lower and slightly to the left of JFK. In that case, you need a wrist wound and a leg wound. Connaly's wrist is on his lap, his leg is his lap, and both are well below the edge of the car. A shot from the Grassy Knoll (which is a lot smaller than people seem to think) would not have been high enough, and would have had to go through a partially raised window. A shot from the overpass would have had to go through the front windshield (not to mention the seat and maybe even the driver), which was not broken and had no holes through it. There were no buildings beside the car. THE SBD was behind Kennedy, as were two other buildings that could be realistically considered. To hit Connaly in the lap from behind, the bullet would have had to pass through either Kennedy or Jackie. It would have had to be a slow bullet, too, because after going through his wrist it barely wounded his leg. Almost as if it had been slowed down considerably before striking him. Say, by two bodies?

Now, take into account the facts that Connaly was turning as the shot was fired, and the bullet wounds all align in a straight line, through Kennedy, to the SBD window.

Here's a photo of the motorcade, just before turning onto Elm. Notice where Connaly is in position to Kennedy.


Here's a view from the spot where Kennedy was shot in the head, looking back to the SBD window. Does that look like a difficult shot?


Oswald was a trained shooter. The rifle was ordered by someone with Oswald's name. It was found in a room that Oswald had access to. Oswald was seen carrying a package that could have held a rifle (and it wasn't something he normally carried). After the shooting he was seen without the package. When he was first seen after the shooting he looked so odd that the police drew guns on him. In this era, cops rarely drew guns, so they saw something. Later a man fitting Oswald's description and wearing a jacket like the one he had been seen in earlier shot a cop to death, and was chased into a movie theater, where he was cornered. He tried to hit a cop, but was subdued (Oliver Stone even thought that was so suspicious that he had Oswald surrender peacefully in his movie--rewriting history again).

Contrary to what later conspiracy buffs claim, the rifle was fired by three FBI marksman on a shooting range shortly after the incident. The first time they fired, they could not shoot as quickly or as accurately as Oswald would have had to do. They tried twice more. But the third round, each man was able to duplicate the speed and accuracy of the shooter. That rifle was accurate enough, deadly enough, and could be used fast enough for the shots to have been fired by Oswald. Interestingly, there's a funny video of a man arguing that the rifle could not have physically been fired, cocked and fired again fast enough to have been the weapon. As he is explaining that it is physically impossible, he illustrates by firing, cocking, and firing again (no bullets), and beats Oswald's time considerably.

Now, I've wasted all this time at work, and I'm sure no one will believe me. And I will be told that I'm wrong and a dupe and an idiot and someone who denies reality and just beleives whatever he is told by people who will just ignore everything I've said to mindlessly repeat everything they've been told without any idea of the real evidence. I'm used to it. But as a trained historian, it's just in my blood to try.

[maine_raptor]

51. jobycom, It's no that I don't believe you, but

if you are a trained historian, a profession I admire, then please consider these facts:

First, you state:

All of these arguments fall apart in one simple place. The three shots all came from the SBD. All of the motorcade witnesses (I was friends with one) and the majority of the witnesses on the ground that day told the police that the shots came from that general direction (You will here people say otherwise about the people on the ground, but those numbers are padded by people who came forward years later, and by some who claimed the shot came from above but whose comments were flat distorted by conspiracy buffs later). Three men watched the motorcade from the window below Oswald, and saw the rifle sticking out the window, and heard the shots. Others saw a figure in that window, as well.


Not all motorcade witnesses agree with you. In fact the only person still alive that was IN the car that day, Nellie Connelly, still maintains that her husband and JFK were hit by different bullets. If that is the case, then as Arlen Spector, Chief Council for the Warren Commission at the time, has said: "To say that President Kennedy and Governor Connelly were hit by two bullets is synonymous with saying there was more than one assassin."

In addition, over two thirds of the "ear witnesses" in Dealy Plaza when the shots rang out said that at least one of the shot came from the area infamously now known as the "grassy knoll".

Both those facts come from testimony and FBI reports available in the National Archive on the subject. The 2/3's number comes from an exhaustive compilation of the written reports and interviews in the Hearings and Exhibits of the Warren Commission that was conducted by several historical researchers over the years.

And furthermore, the 3 "gentlemen" in the window below have gone on record, under oath, that their Warren Commission testimony was "coached". Maybe the fact that they were all black living in the a deep southern town in the early 60's had something to do with it, but none the less, they are on record as denying the bit about the rifle and noises.

Next you state:

Now, go from a reverse angle. There was a bullet wound on Kennedy's throat. It's in all the autopsy pictures. Where did that bullet come out if that was an entry wound? How did it get to his throat through the windshield or side window without breaking either? How did that bullet not strike Connelly first? (That's the part that amuses me--all the anti-"magic bullet" folk draw pictures as though Connelly were sitting right in front of JFK. Okay, if he was, how did Kennedy get shot in the throat?) If the throat wound was an exit wound, where was the entry wound other than the one entry wound we can see photographed in the autopsy photos? There are no others. So Kennedy had a hole just beneath his right shoulder blade, and a hole in his neck just to the left and slightly lower than the wound in his back. (The wound on his neck was puckered, like an exit wound, but I'll ignore that.) JFK was hunched forward slightly, as can be seen in the Zapruder film. So how did that happen? Either they are two seperate wounds, in which case there are three wounds in Kennedy (counting the head shot) and at least one in Connaly (and according to conspiracy people, it was more than one in Connaly).

I have personally examined the JFK (and RFK) autopsy photos. The wound in Kennedy's back is clearly BELOW the "wound" in the throat.

Now, if you are going by the "autopsy" that was conducted at Bethesda Navel Hospital, be aware that NONE of the attending doctors had EVER performed an autopsy on a gunshot victim before (WC testimony of the doctors) and at NO TIME were they ever in contact with the doctors at Parkland Hospital while the autopsy was on going.

Had the autopsy doctors been in contact with the ones in Dallas, then they (the autopsy team) would have known that Kennedy's throat wound had been enlarged in the emergency room by the team in Dallas for a trac tube. Thus only time any doctors had a good look at the throat would was in Dallas and the doctors there all thought it was "a wound of entrance" (Quote from Parkland Hospital Doctors as can be found in their written contemporaneous notes in the National Archives).

Second, if you look closely at the Zapruder film, you will find that at about frame 235, John Connelly's cheeks suddenly puff out. This is the anatomical reaction of the Governor having a bullet pass through his right lung. It clearly defines the second shot has having been fired approx 1.5 seconds AFTER JFK has been struck, as seen in the Z film. The rifle that Oswald is alleged to have used is physically incapable of firing two shots (let alone aimed shots) within that time frame.

Next you say: We know there was no bullet left in Connaly's torso.

Once again. not true. Commission Exhibit #399, the so-called "Magic Bullet", is not pristine as some would claim; it is slightly flattened on one side and has a small nick at it's tip. It is missing some metal and X-rays of Governor Connelly's wrist and thigh clearly show fragments inside his body up until the day he died. They were buried with him, in fact. The only problem is that a study of the X-rays (which, once again, exist in the National Archives) shows that the amount of metal in Connelly's body is more than is missing from CE#399.

Finally, and like you, only because I've spent too much time on this already. you state: "Oswald was a trained shooter. The rifle was ordered by someone with Oswald's name. It was found in a room that Oswald had access to. Oswald was seen carrying a package that could have held a rifle (and it wasn't something he normally carried). After the shooting he was seen without the package."

Oswald's record in the Marine Corps is available with the National Archive. That, along with testimony (WC) of those that went through Basic with him CLEARLY shows that Oswald was a very poor shooter. His rating of "Sharpshooter" was the lowest that was given at the time and many times his MC record shows "Maggie's Drawers" (clean miss of the target).

The rifle was ordered by one "A.J.Hidel". There is some evidence that this was a false name that Oswald used. But however much the Warren Commission wanted to link Oswald to Hidel, an examination of those links as found in the Hearings and Exhibits of the WC some them to be suspect at best.

Oswald was seen carrying a package into The TSBD that day, but according to the co-worker that drove him to work that day, the package was considerably smaller than a package that would contain the dis-assembled form of the rifle.

Two other points about the rifle. First, Oswald's fingerprints were never found on the rifle. Second, FBI Firearms experts that examined it found several problems with it; the scope was loose and out of alignment (they had to place shims under the scope), and that the rifle was in such poor condition that they were fearful of test firing it.

I could go on and on here, but I just want to say that if you, as a trained historian, are going to adhere to the "Oswald Did It", then you'd better know the historical record. 99% of what what I have posted here comes from the material put together by the Warren Commission. What make that evidence so interesting it that the story presented by the Warren Commission in it's official Report is so contradicted by the material found in the Commission's own 26 volumes of Hearings and Exhibits, which like I've said before is available to any historian at the National Archives.

[jobycom]

56. All of that is debunked, wrong, or misinterpretated.

Nellie and John may have thought the two Johns were hit by different bullets, but they were equally convinced that the three shots came from over their right shoulder, and no where else. And that's very important, because some have claimed that John and Nellie were bought off, and are unreliable. If so, they'd agree that there was only one bullet.

About a third of witnesses said they heard shots from the knoll. Not two thirds, nowhere near it. Many conspiracy buffs have repeated false numbers based on extrapolative conclusions. Witnesses for instance who said they heard shots from the SBD but saw or smelled smoke on the Knoll were classified as saying shots came from the knoll, even when some of them claimed the smoke smelled like exhaust or steam. Over half said they came from the SBD. A few said they came from other places, ranging from the overpass to inside the car itself. Five out of about a hundred thought they came from more than one direction.

Some interesting points: some of those who said the shots came from the Knoll or somewhere else were on the other side of both places (the overpass, for instance) where the sound for either location would have come from the same direction. Zapruder said he didn't know where the shots came from, that the just reverbrated everywhere. That's very important, because we know from his filming that he was on the Grassy Knoll less than ten feet from where a shooter would have had to stand. At one point, he has testified, he heard someone drop a bottle and turned to see a couple on the street, at a point just below the famous picket fence. So he had a clear view of that area, had just looked in that area, and could tell when a sound came from that area. There were no shooters.

Here's a chart:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm

Now, autopsy stuff. The wound in the back of Kennedy's shoulder is clearly higher than the exit wound in the bottom of Kennedy's throat, and if you add the fact that Kennedy was leaning slightly forward, it's even more pronounced. Look at the autopsy of Kennedy's front wound--it is clearly below the line of his shoulders.

The emergency room doctors at Parkland had mixed opinions of the wound on his neck. Some said it was an entry wound, some speculated an exit wound, and some thought it was an exit wound from a fragment of bullet from his brain. That's why you don't trust first comments made by people in an emergency--they are guessing. Later examination showed it to be an exit wound.

There were not more bullet fragments in Connally than was missing from the bullet found on Connally. The fragments from a bullet don't come from the tip, they come from the amount of metal squeezed out of the back of a bullet as it is fired (it's called toothpasting). There was more than enough metal missing. Here's one study on it: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wound3.txt And here's another: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wound5.txt

On the package, Oswald told police he carried his lunch that day, and nothing else. The co-worker who rode with Oswald that day said he did not carry his lunch, but carried a long package, which he said contained curtain rods. When asked the length, he guessed 27 inches, but said he wasn't sure. He repeated that he wasn't sure, several times, and that he had just glanced quickly at it in the back seat. He also saw Oswald carry the package into the SBD, but from about twelve feet away. The rifle, disassembled, would have been 35 inches--not a great difference. A long bag was found next to the rifle near the window. It was long enough to carry the rifle, it had fibers inside it consistent with the fibers of a blanket the rifle had been wrapped in while in Oswald's garage, and the paper was wrinkled in the correct places to mark a rifle. The bag had Oswalds fingerprints and palm prints on it. Six cops witnessed the bag's discovery, and there is a photograph of the bag being carried out of the SBD an hour after the shooting. It is clearly long enough. No curtain rods were found in the SBD, despite an extensive search for them. A rifle was. And Oswald's rifle from his landlady's garage was missing, and to this date, has never been found, if one assumes that this was not the same rifle that killed JFK. So, to sum, the witness who saw Oswald carry the rifle swore emphatically that he didn't know how long the bag was, though he guessed 27 inches, he claimed that the bag the FBI had looked like the same bag, Oswald's prints were on the bag, and the bag carried a rifle like the one missing from Oswald's garage.

So, Oswald lied to his friend about the bag, lied to the police about whether he carried a bag, and had a rifle like the one found at the scene vanish from his garage. As I said somewhere else, the evidence is much stronger that Oswald shot Kennedy than that OJ killed anyone.

Sorry if I missed some points. I saw nothing I haven't seen debunked before, but I am at work and typing this when my boss isn't looking, so it's not thorough.

[maine_raptor]

61. Hmmmm

Too bad you are "debunking" the Warren Commission itself. Just about all of what I posted came from the WC material.

But a couple of points:

"they were equally convinced that the three shots came from over their right shoulder

READ their testimony. They ASSUME the shots came from over the right shoulder.

"About a third of witnesses said they heard shots from the knoll. Not two thirds, nowhere near it. Many conspiracy buffs have repeated false numbers based on extrapolative conclusions. Witnesses for instance who said they heard shots from the SBD but saw or smelled smoke on the Knoll were classified as saying shots came from the knoll, even when some of them claimed the smoke smelled like exhaust or steam. Over half said they came from the SBD. A few said they came from other places, ranging from the overpass to inside the car itself. Five out of about a hundred thought they came from more than one direction."

Once again, not true. There were 267 people in Dealy Plaza at the time. From the testimony given to the FBI and used by the WC, and using ONLY those who gave an opinion as to the origin of the THIRD shot (head wound), 2/3'rds in those reports said the fatal shot came from the Grassy Knoll. That is based upon the DOCUMENTATION that rests in the National Archives.

And again:

"Zapruder said he didn't know where the shots came from, that the just reverbrated everywhere. That's very important, because we know from his filming that he was on the Grassy Knoll less than ten feet from where a shooter would have had to stand. "

Abraham Zapruder stood upon a concrete post (about 2-3" high) in the memorial. I have stood on the exact same spot, and I can assure you that the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll is a lot farther than a mere 10 feet (closer to 30 or 40).


"The wound in the back of Kennedy's shoulder is clearly higher than the exit wound in the bottom of Kennedy's throat..."

Sorry, I have SEEN the actual photos. I disagree, it is lower. Furthermore the autopsy doctors, which you rely upon for a description of the throat wound, stated in testimony before the Commission that they were "unable to find a path" between the back wound and the throat wound. See testimony of doctors in the Hearings and Exhibits.


"if you add the fact that Kennedy was leaning slightly forward"

The Zapruder Film shows NO "leaning slightly forward" by JFK at the time he was shot. He is seated upright until the shot hits.


"Some said it was an entry wound, some speculated an exit wound, and some thought it was an exit wound from a fragment of bullet from his brain.

Yes, some said that, but the actual doctors who did the trac, and both of whom were quite familiar with gunshot wounds far more than the autopsy doctors, both agreed that the small neat hole was more typical of entry. See Notes of Doctors in Hearings and Exhibits and Doctors testimony before the Commission.

The bullet fragment from the head wound causing the throat wound was something that was speculated much later after the WC report was issued.

As for your links, I am quite familiar with the work of John Lattimer. The problem with Mr. Lattimer is that he is and has been for quite some time a strong supporter of the WC. Back when the controversy over the WC findings first started to heat up, mid-60's, Lattimer was quite involved in "debunking" the opposing view. His smear tactics upon critics and willingness to use mis-information were quite well know within the assassination community.


"The co-worker who rode with Oswald that day said he did not carry his lunch, but carried a long package, which he said contained curtain rods. When asked the length, he guessed 27 inches, but said he wasn't sure. He repeated that he wasn't sure, several times, and that he had just glanced quickly at it in the back seat. He also saw Oswald carry the package into the SBD, but from about twelve feet away. The rifle, disassembled, would have been 35 inches--not a great difference."

Billy Lovelady was his name, and in his testimony, he stated that the package took up less than 1/2 of the width the back seat of his car. He also stated that Oswald carried the package with one end tucked into his armpit with the other end in the palm of his hand. Lovelady was specific on this because he thought it was an odd way to carry a package (see his testimony, he was not shaken on this point). The problem with his testimony in this regard is that a 35" package CANNOT be held that way, human arms are just not long enough.

" A long bag was found next to the rifle near the window. It was long enough to carry the rifle, it had fibers inside it consistent with the fibers of a blanket the rifle had been wrapped in while in Oswald's garage, and the paper was wrinkled in the correct places to mark a rifle. The bag had Oswald's fingerprints and palm prints on it. Six cops witnessed the bag's discovery, and there is a photograph of the bag being carried out of the SBD an hour after the shooting. It is clearly long enough."

Ah yes, the paper bag. First, FBI examination of the bag showed NO trace of gun oil. Yet the FBI agents that examined the rifle found that the rifle was well oiled. Second, an FBI Fingerprint Expert doubted that "Oswald's palm print" was actually on the bag, he could not find it when he tested the bag. At the time of his testimony, he was relying on Dallas Police reports. See, once again, the Hearing and Exhibits of the Warren Commission.

Third: "No curtain rods were found in the SBD, despite an extensive search for them.

Sorry, but a package of curtain rods WAS found and a report of the finding was forwarded to the WC, but the finding was never mentioned in the Report. A copy of the FBI report detailing the finding does exist within the 26 volumes of the Hearings and Exhibits of the Warren Commission.



Look you can believe that LHO shot JFK all by his lonesome, but I have read the WC, I have gone through the 26 volumes of Hearings and Exhibits, I have talked with those involved in the case, I have seen the autopsy photos at the National Archives, and I have been involved in this case for almost 40 years and nothing I have seen, heard, watched, or listened to has ever convinced me that JFK was shot by a lone gunman. And there is quite a bit of evidence just in the material assembled by the Warren Commission alone that points to more than one gunman.

[jobycom]

74. This is why I don't want to get into it.

Here's a clip of John and Nellie stating unequivocably where the shots came from. There was no doubt to them, despite your suggestion otherwise.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/connally.rm

You're flat wrong on how many witnesses said a shot came from the Grassy Knoll. There are 121 witnesses whose testimony is recorded in the WC records. Of those, 17 said they had no idea, 35 said a shot came from the knoll, 56 said from the SBD, five said both. And that's interesting, because everyone admits that Kennedy was shot at least once in the back. For him to have been shot in the front, there would have been shots from at least two directions. Only five of the 121 witnesses said they heard shots from both directions.

The autopsy photos are all over the net. Do a Google. Here's Kennedy in the limo not long before the shots, with his typical slouch and lean. Look at his lower neck in relation to his shoulder blades, then visualize the shot on the beck. It is about three inches from his shoulders, just to the right of his spine. The front wound was just at the bottom of his tie's knot (which is where the bullet pierced his tie).


Your comments on Lattimer are interesting, since they could be applied the other way as well. He's smeared by conspiracy buffs who can't prove him wrong. And I gave you two sources, but you only chose the one you could smear the messenger on, rather than debunking either one with evidence.

Billy Lovelady was not the witness who saw the package in Oswald's car. He was the man outside the SBD who some thought was Oswald in a picture. Wes Frazier and Linnie Randle (brother and sister) saw the package. Randle saw it as Oswald carried it from the garage to the car. Frazier saw it in the car. Neither said they paid much attention to it. If Lovelady also said he saw Oswald carrying the bag, I'm not familiar with the story. You'll have to show me where someone found curtain rods in the SBD, since the police said otherwise. (Cap JW Fritz- 4H218 in the WC papers).


On Oswald's shooting skills: "During his military career Oswald scored as a "sharpshooter" in December 1956, on two occasions achieving 48 and 49 out of 50 during rapid fire at a 200 yard (183 m) distant target, but failed to attain a marksmanship badge."

[maine_raptor]

81. jobycom

Try reading the record, ok?

The photos I saw were not on the net. The net did not exist back then. I saw them while working for the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1977 & 78.

Lattimer is an Urologist, not a forensic pathologist. His work has been widely discredited, even by supporters of the Warren Commission.

Talk to the doctors that treated JFK at Parkland, I have. They will tell you that the wounds they saw at Parkland are NOT the wounds (esp'ly the throat wound) that appear now in the photos in the National Archives.

The bullet never nicked the tie, the FBI confirmed that the nick on the tie was a result of the nurse's removal of his clothes. Read the FBI Lab exam of the tie as recorded in the 26 volumes.

And quite frankly I am tired with dealing with folks that claim this and that proves LHO did it, yet refuse to look at the documents that were assembled by the WC and still exist. I spent a good deal of my life involved in this case and now in the twilight of my life, I'd rather be working on other things.

Believe the single gunman fairy tale if you want, perhaps it will make you sleep better at night. But for me I will go to my grave knowing that Oswald at the least was not acting alone, and more than likely, did not take an active part in the assassination. You like to make the comparison between OJ and LHO. Well let me tell you had LHO ever gone to trial, chances are, given a fair trail, he would have been found not guilty. That is how weak the case is against him. OJ is as guilty as sin, but LHO would have walked and rightly so.

Good Night, Sir.

[Raster]

78. thank you. Nice to see someone with the facts in tow before they start

slinging their opinions like arrows.

[nvliberal]

67. People who believe this conspiracy crap ought to be ashamed

of themselves for being hoodwinked.

It's lucky for you that the Bush family are public figures, because this is nothing but libel.

And I am NO fan of the Bushes.

Nixon had nothing to do with it, either.

Tell me how both of them got to Oswald, who killed BOTH Kennedy and Officer Tippitt.

[maine_raptor]

70. Sorry, nvliberal

But the facts of the case are against you. I hardly doubt that I am hoodwinked, a fool, or beleive the earth is flat as you posted down below.

Why is it so hard for you to even consider the case for more than one gunman?

Why do you ignore a duly empowered US Congressional Committee (The House Select Committee on Assassinations) that in 1978 concluded that President Kennedy was more than likely than not killed as a result of a conspiracy?

Why do you hate America so?

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Watch it yourself and see

Do the research yourself on Bush's family. The whole Bush men are traitors going back to Samuel Prescott Bush. Why else hasn't Poppy made a claim to where he was the day Kennedy was killed? Nixon at least tried to make something up. Everybody who was conscious when Kennedy died I'm sure knows where they were except for Poppy.

[Karenina]

34. He was at the helm of the ship...

[Neil Lisst]

32. expatriot- Get educated on this.

And stop lecturing people who are obviously much better informed than you on these points.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Do "progressives" shut each other up?

There are many unanswered questions about JFK's murder. People will continue to discuss it, even if it bothers you.

I wouldn't mind if you said that you doubt Bush had anything to do with it. But you're saying that, even if he DID, people should shut up.

[jobycom]

14. Much of Powell's speech to the UN was supported by documents, too

Oswald did it. Poppy Bush couldn't plot an effective strategy to tie his own shoelace, and why would he, anyway? To put the more populist LBJ in power? And why would Nixon do it? He and JFK were old friends, and Nixon hated LBJ.

I've seen a hundred theories with "facts" and "documents" that all proved conclusively that it was everyone from Bush to the mob to Castro to Russia. Not a one of them makes half as much sense or is half as solid as Oswald being the lone shooter.

If there was a conspiracy, it was LBJ hiring Oswald to do it. LBJ was the only one who benefitted from an LBJ presidency. Anyone else would have knocked both of them off.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. Kennedy and Nixon friends?

LOL! Nixon didn't like Kennedy because everybody loved Kennedy and the only reason why Nixon won the election was because he claimed he would stop Vietnam and do things differently and because Kennedy was dead and people were getting tired of how Johnson was running Vietnam. Kennedy and Nixon friends...lol!!!!

[tinfoilinfor2005]

44. Over the years, I've read in several articles that they were

indeed friends, back from college days. I'm sure that's easy enough to research.

On edit, see http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/progjfk1.htm

[jobycom]

46. They were

Kennedy and Nixon were friends up until they ran against each other, and even afterwards friends of each said they still praised and defended each other, though both were angry at the other over the election. Nixon began melting down in the 60s, though, so who knows what he felt by then?

But what would he gain by having Kennedy shot, even if they were enemies?

[Ouabache]

91. Nixon was in Dallas that day to demonstrate to him that he could be

placed where they* wanted him, when they* wanted him to be there.
Do you think he got the message?

[Raster]

26. JFK was assassinated because he was too damned popular and had decided

to take the country out of the Viet Nam conflict. That was just one of several reasons that certain factions wanted JFK hit. Another was the aggressive stance the Kennedy boys took on race relations and civil rights in the south. Not to mention the Kennedy's extremely poor relations with hoover and the fbi.

[jobycom]

48. On each of those points

Kennedy had just increased our force size in Viet Nam when he was shot, and was publicly not only declaring that we had to get more involved, he was an active proponent of the domino theory, that if Viet Nam fell, they'd lose all of Asia. In addition, JFK campaigned on the "missile gap," claiming (falsely) that the Soviets had more missiles, and beginning the nuclear arms race. There was no reason the conservative side would have hit Kennedy over Viet Nam. It may be true (or may not be) that he was telling friends and liberal supporters privately that he wanted to withdraw from Viet Nam, but he said the opposite publicly, and he made no moves to do so. In fact, he made several moves to do the opposite.

As for the "aggressive stance the Kennedy boys took of race relations," JFK tried to stop the Freedom Rides when he first took office, he coached the civil rights leaders to slow down (they didn't) and he authorized Hoover to wiretap MLK because MLK was associating with a known communist. JFK did no more than Eisenhower for race relations, and many of the Civil Rights leaders were frustrated with him.

And btw, if Kennedy was shot because he was too damned popular and was also shot because the south hated him because of his race relationship, then was he shot by a schizophrenic?

As for JFK's poor relations with the FBI, they were apparently good enough for JFK to authorize them to wiretap MLK.

Every president has issues with government agencies. It's the nature of government for beauracrats to dislike politicians. Why was JFK the only one who got shot over it?

[Raster]

68. First point, Kennedy wanted to withdraw from Viet Nam

Kennedy, Vietnam and Iraq
The evidence is clear: JFK decided to withdraw from Vietnam a month before he was assassinated. Setting the record straight is crucial as Baghdad continues to explode.

By James K. Galbraith

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/11/22/vietnam/index_np.html

[jobycom]

85. Yeah, I've seen that before.

So what are you thinking, that even though JFK had not done anything about removing the troops from Viet Nam and even though he was publicly proclaiming he was not going to leave Viet Nam that 20 days before he was assassinated he made the declaration to his advisors and they shot him for it?

Sorry, doesn't work for me. JFK was up for election in a year. The military complex could easily have pressured him to change his mind, as an election was coming up.

Publicly, JFK was for the war. To flipflop on the subject would have hurt him in the elections. They would have tried something other than assassination first.

[dflprincess]

45. Don't you find it at all strange that

from the time Oswald was arrested (with remarkable speed) the investigation switched from "whodunit" to how to prove Oswald was the lone gunman?

A few years ago the History Channel was running a program called "As it Happened" which consisted only of news broadcasts from when an event occurred. They ran one on JFK's assassination and what struck me was how the media was given every detail of Oswald's life so quickly. I still have the morning newspaper from November 23 and, after watching the the History Channel show I dug it out and was again amazed how much was made public about him less than 24 hours after the murder.

I can also recall that shortly after the murder, Oswald's mother claimed he was a government agent. At the time the media portrayed her as a grieving mother who had a lot of nerve to be so upset when she's the one who raised a kid who would do something so terrible and she was generlly laughed at. I stopped lauging a long time ago.

[jobycom]

50. That's interesting, I still have the paper from the morning after, too

and one from the Sunday after, with a long story on Oswald and a final sentence that he was scheduled to be moved from the Dallas County courthouse that morning. I wasn't alive then, this came from some relatives in New Orleans. (Times Picayune)

Oswald was a former military man with all types of files, from FBI to immigration, he had been a small time activist, and his wife lived in Dallas. Finding enough to fill a newspaper article wouldn't have been difficult at all. Some of the early stuff was very basic, and some was just speculation. A lot of it was wrong. But it's not to hard to see why they got the information so quickly.

As for the investigation turning to prove that Oswald did it, why wouldn't it have? He was at the scene of the crime carrying a long bundle, a rifle was found at the crime and his wife was able to verify that he owned a similar rifle and it was missing, there were witnesses from the room below who saw a rifle firing shots out the window, he was seen a short time later on a lower floor acting so strange that a cop pulled a gun on him before even speaking to him (despite what you see in Hollywood, that's very rare), he was arrested moments after shooting a cop to death, while wearing the same jacket people had seen him in at the SBD, he tried to fight the cops when they arrested him in a theater where people had seen him flee after shooting Tippit (despite how Oliver Stone portrayed it)...

OJ is widely believed to be guilty on not one tenth of that evidence.

As for why no one investigating whether Oswald acted with someone else, I do think that's a big hole. My own personal conspiracy suspicion is that, if there were others involved, all of this "everybody but Oswald" stuff was started by whoever put Oswald up to it. What better way to keep someone from tracing the killer back to you than by convincing everyone that the killer was someone else altogether? Even if they do trace stories back to you, they won't link the killer to you, because no one believes who the killer is. Sounds perfectly Rovean (No, he wasn't around back then).

[dflprincess]

55. I should have been clearer

I do think Oswald was involved, but I believe he was set up as the patsy. It was not right to end the investigation with his arrest. And it was not right for the Warren Commission to work backward from the conclusion that "Oswald acted alone" (now how do we prove it?).

There were witnesses who saw puffs of smoke and who heard shots come from the grassy knoll, but the their testimony was largely ignored. It is also true that spectators across from the knoll had their cameras taken from them shortly after the shooting. There was also disagreement among the witnesses to the Tippet shooting as to what the shooter looked like and what he was wearing. The ones whose testimony was recorded by the Warren Commission were the ones who agreed with the conclusion of the Commission.

[jobycom]

59. That's a good question

On whether others were involved. I'm convinced Oswald was the shooter. I find it likely he acted alone, given his history and lifestyle, but I'm not sure of it.

As for the witnesses who saw puffs of smoke from the Grassy Knoll, they weren't ignored. The WC fully examined their claims. They found, first, that most guns don't smoke when fired (Oliver Stone found this, too, and had to use smoke machines to make his movie). Second, 76% of the people, and sound recording of the shootings, said there were only three shots, (and of the other 24%, more said they heard only one or two than said they heard more. Some couldn't be sure.) Third, there were three fired cartridges found with Oswald's rifle. Fourth, the witnesses who saw smoke or heard shots from the Knoll (about a third of the witnesses) were not close to the knoll, and some were on the other side of the Knoll, so that a shot coming from the Knoll or from the SBD would have come from the same direction. Fifth, people standing right along the fence where the Knoll shooters would have had to fire (Zapruder was one) didn't hear shots coming from the Knoll, and they were as close as ten feet from where the shots would have been fired.

As for the smoke, there were steam vents just behind the fence, for equipment below the ground there, so there was some steam.

The WC didn't consider the GK as a source of gunfire because there was no credible reason to.

As for the WC itself--I agree that it stopped once it had proven Oswald was the shooter. They did not pursue any conspiracy involving Oswald, and because of that, it was fatally flawed. But the evidence of Oswald as the shooter is solid.

[FreedomAngel82]

15. That's a really good video

I definitely suggest it. And than on the Discovery Channel last night they had a really good JFK documentary as well showing how the "one bullet" theory is nonsense and it had to have at least two bullets and they talked about how there was someone by the fence on the other side of the road.

[Selatius]

16. JFK pissed off many groups

Here's a short list:

FBI
CIA
Mafia
The Israeli government
The banking establishment

The last two because he opposed Israel's pursuit of nuclear weapons and the bankers for ordering the Treasury to print bills despite the Federal Reserve.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. All you gotta do is....

follow the money. With the neocons it's all about money.

[Selatius]

29. Oh yes, I also forgot to mention he had a coherent plan to avoid Vietnam

That probably pissed off the defense industry. He would've had troops out by 1965. Of course, that was not to be. Johnson reversed course after JFK was killed, and the defense industry made a killing building weapons and bombs for the war.

[jen4clark]

69. There was a program on

Biography channel the other night (Fri. or Sat.) about the Mafia. I was falling asleep at the part that was getting into when RFK was going after the Mafia - I think like '59 or something?

Before that they were talking about how Hoover always denied there was such a thing as the Mafia.

The bush crime family goes way way back to Prescot's dad, Samuel.

http://www.communitycurrency.org/BushCrimeFamily.html



I don't think it's at all a far reach to think that all the groups Selatius has listed above were involved in getting rid of the Kennedys.

[leanin_green]

20. You have to remember also,

that poppy was a part of the Texas political machine. He was in oil then in the Gulf. That's why it was in Texas. They could control it there. Hell, you think Louisianna is corrupt, just look at its neighbor to the west.

[punpirate]

22. How did you get...

... a 175mb file downloaded on dial-up in two hours? Just curious.

On edit, especially after the download has crashed on me three times at about the 1.5mb point.

To help me avoid further annoyance, what documents prove the point being made?

[DemInDistress]

86. pirate...sorry about the mislead

it takes my dial-up 4 hours or more but after I/you watch this 93 minute video you wont be disappointed.I downloaded at 8pm and so far I
have 30% done.What convinced me was the bullet hole in the windsheild
and the bullet hole in the sideview mirror as well as the bullet that hit the curb opposite the driver who suddenly slowed the vehicle to 11
mph. at the grassy noll.He too was involved.Also,on Main St.Dallas their were people who lined the street 10 deep for a quarter mile then as the car turned left toward the grassy noll you can see just a few people maybe 20/30.Why no crowds there? I wish you had the patience to download this video.Poppy bush went to Dallas with dick
nixon and the plumbers and some female who knew what was going to happen,she soon left them in Dallas.I'll watch this again tonight and
get back to you with more on the documents supplied.
Sorry about the 2 hours....Still friends?

[punpirate]

87. Just wondered...

... because 175mb is a fourteen-hour download at the speed it was running last night. I don't think I'll be able to watch it--it continued to crash several times after 2-3mb.

Cheers.

[DemInDistress]

89. I feel bad...

sorry to mislead you,tonight I again downloaded JFK II I started at
8PM its 40% complete,looks like a 6/7 hour download.If I knew how to
burn a CD I'd do it and send you a copy.I have blank CD's but never
tried to copy anything.My PC skills are young and I'm old {59}.I want
as many people as possible to see this production that was my first
major thread and was shocked to see 25 replys.If only there were a way....Sorry again Pirate,have a bud on me..:toast:

[punpirate]

90. Not to worry...

... dial-up's the problem, not you.

Cheers.

[greyl]

28. The movie is crap. Jimmy Walter and John Hankey are too nutty

to ever trust.

[Lefergus70]

30. JFK conspracy theorists also ignore important facts

What turns me against JFK conspiracy theorists is that they denounce journalists and investigators for overlooking, or ignoring, what they consider vital information - then they go and do the same.

For example, The New York columnist Jimmy Breslin, who's built a reputation on digging below the surface of MSM news, was in Dallas that day, and he has always insisted that the conspiracy reports are manipulating the event that he lived through and researched. Unfortunately, I cannot locate his famous interview with a Dallas cemetery worker, or another conspiracy-denouncing column on the 40th anniversary of the murder. But I DID find one of his pieces that is preserved in the online archives of Edinburgh's "The Scotsman", which shows some facts about the bullet wound that this video ignores. Have a look:

http://www.scotsman.com/?id=1292052003

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

36. Which leads to the ludicrous theories

of body-alteration & even more bizarre Zapbruder film alteration (with some even arguing that the entire film is a CIA-reconstruction using actors!).

There are questions surrounding the assassination & Oswald worth asking, but the internet is a shit place to do so because challenging any theory generally results in accussations of being CIA, etc. It's also where the most ludicrous theories gain undue prominance

[Totally Committed]

40. I don't know if this makes me a "conspiracy theorist" or not, but...

Whether or not I can tell you who killed JFK (I can't, not for sure, so I won't bother), I ask you to consider this: He was assassinated, his brother was assassinated, and Teddy was (I believe this to this day) "taken out" as a possibility for the Presidency at any time in the future with an "accident" that implicated him in hte death of a young woman. That "dynasty" was stopped dead in its tracks by a series of deaths and mishaps that are, even if you don't believe in conspiracies, statistically improbable for one family.

Just when JFK, Jr. (arguably the Kennedy's best hope for a return to the WH in his generation) appeared to be ascending to a run for the Presidency, he just "happened to" die in a small plane crash??? Again, what is the statistical probablility of such a happenstance for this family? (I do believe the skiing accident in which another Kennedy cousin was killed could have been legitimate, but still... Death after death after scandal...)

Is it any wonder that Joe, Jr., Caroline, and Bobby, Jr. have left any thoughts of politics behind and gone to live and work in the private sector?

Consider this before you write off everything having to do with this family as "coicidence, not conspiracy". Purely statistically, not all of this could be "coincidence", at least not in my mind.

TC

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

41. I'm more than open-minded to a conspiracy with JFK & RFK

The problem is that the internet has opened up a swathe of silly theories which people cling to - umbrella man poison dart, driver turned & shot Kennedy, James Files, Judyth Baker, the LBJ 'wink, etc - I've even read someone postulating that Jackie killed him as a favour to Onassis.

Also, Stone's JFK has to take some blame IMHO. He's cannonised Jim Garrison and lent credibility to Fletcher Prouty (Donald Sutherland in the movie) which has IMO, drowned out more interesting figures like Richard Case Nagell & Gaeton Fonzi's "Maurice Bishop" (aka David Atlee Phillips?).

[maine_raptor]

42. MsMD, I agree to a point.

I agree with internet "crap" and Stone's movie being a part of the "wild-eyed" theories problem, but more to the point on the movie than the net (that is a problem with almost anything you look at on-line).

Because Stone "canonized Jim Garrison" as you say, he fell down the same road and his movie had the same basic fault that Garrison's investigation had to begin with; the utter ignoring of any role the Mafia, and in particular Carlos Marcello, played in the act. IMHO, the Assassination of JFK was a "Mafia Hit" and the great "cover-up" stemmed from the Mob's involvement with the intelligence community. Others took advantage of it (LBJ's desire to have it wrapped up before the '64 election, thus the Warren Commission, is one example).

I do agree with your interest in "Bishop"; for Phillips was very heavy into Operation Mongoose and at the nexus of the Mafia/CIA anti-Castro activities.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

49. yeah, I'm probably being a bit mean on the net ;)

after all, it's the only place that allowed me to ready access the WC exhibits, plus the HSCA, Church & Rockefeller reports plus some great historical articles.

It's not an area I've looked at in great detail, but I'm of the opinion that the WC 'cover-up' was pretty easy to achieve. I'll be interested to read Max Holland's book (which is almost as long in the writing as Bugliosi's), because much of what I've read from the 'executive session' transcripts suggests a real lack of interest in pursuing any conspiracy lead whatsoever and bascially accepting the shoddy FBI investigation as gospel.

(Incidentally, have you seen "The Commission"? I heard an interview with the director when it got its first public screening in 2003, but it seems to have disappeared completely since then. I just checked the website & it mentions screenings of the complete version this autumn. Obviously Martin Sheen & Martin Landau do not a high-profile film make.)

http://www.thecommissiononline.com

[Leftest]

33. Yes

It is a very good documentary. Every friend and co-worker I've showed it to or lent it to has been shocked by it.

DemInDistress; you know how at the end it makes the point about Jr Bush and his where abouts when JFK Jr was killed?

Well anyway, a fews weeks ago the author of the film was on the radio, and if my memory serves me. He stated that he's currently working on a video pertaining towards the JFK Jr death.

[DemInDistress]

88. Thanks Leftest...

This JFK video shows me a bullet hole in the windsheild,a bulet hole in the side mirror and where a bullet struck the curb across from JFK's driver yet never mentioned.Many other conflicts with the testimony of the key players,no Secret Service agents on that slow moving car,no motorcycle cops along side JFK's car,no major crowd at the start of the shooting,the driver slows to 11 mph. at the grassy noll,Poppy's connections with Cuba,Poppy's ties with the CIA/Mafia,the
Plumbers and much more...
On Nov 23 1963 I was 16 yrs old it was 2:15 PM {est} when I walked out of my high school a friend immeadiately told me,"President Kennedy" has been shot and killed in Dallas.I was shocked and saddened
I was on Astor Ave. near williamsbridge Rd.it was sunny.Why Poppy cant
remember where he was is just a LIE.
Leftest,if you hear of a new JFK movie/film/video please let me know.
Thanks for the input....DemInDistress

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. Of course...

[donsu]

38. bushgang did it

nt

[maine_raptor]

39. Oh, Horse Hockey!!!!!!!!!!!!

Poppy was NOT in Dallas 11/22/63 and had NOTHING to do with it.

He was in Houston having lunch with oil buddies, that is a well documented fact, folks. Yes, he did make a statement to the FBI, but is was of very little consequence to the case (at the most, it puts him in the "Oswald was Pro-Castro" crowd of like FBI reports).

I have not seen the video on that link, but if it is talking about three "tramps" picked up in Dealy Plaza just after the assassination, and how they look like Frank Strugis and Howard Hunt (Nixon's Plumbers), sorry, but that myth was busted long ago by assassination researchers,

As far as old Tricky Dick himself: Yes, he was in Dallas that day, but airline flight records do show him leaving before JFK arrived at Love Field. What is a bit unknown though, is if he had PRIOR knowledge of the act and just let it happen.

[windbreeze]

47. Interesting subject..

Conspiracy theories abound, when the truth is NOT being told.
Sr.Bush was in Dallas, but can't remember what he was doing..
Kennedy did NOT want to get involved in a war in Vietnam, he also did not want to be part of an invasion of Cuba....(Operation Northwoods, comes to mind)
He wanted to downsize the military..
He wanted to remove us from the Fed Reserve Banking system, and even gave orders to print money outside their reach, which used red ink..The Fed, charges us something akin to 17% interest...and his plan only charged 3%, to use our own money...After all folks, the Fed.Reserve, our banking system, in other words, doesn't belong to us...It belongs to foreigners, such as the Rothchilds, and other rich, elite people...
He did not want to give Israel nuclear technology...
He appointed his brother Attn.General..who then went after the Chicago mob, who said they helped get him elected...
So who all did he piss off? Just about everyone and anyone who could do him harm..powerful people, who weren't going to let him stand in their way...

Do I or have I ever believed Oswald was the killer...NO..Do I, or have I ever believed the Warren Report...NO...and anyone who was alive that day, will ever forget what they were doing when tragedy struck, so I ain't buying into the fact that Poppy didn't remember what he was doing in Dallas...What was it, Johnson said? If the American people really knew what happened, there would be chaos in the streets...WHY?? did he feel that way? and what did he know about it, that we were never told?

The "official story" is NOT the truth..and from a personal experience I had, regarding this subject...IF anyone does put it all together..I hope they think twice before talking about it..no matter how much we deserve to know...

We keep demanding accountability from *....but we stopped holding our gov't responsible for their actions at least a hundred or more years ago, when they became intent on taking the power from the people as a whole, and giving it to a few select and elite people/families....imo, everything that has happened in the past, or continues to happen is intertwined..and yes, Virginia, conspiracies do occur...
windbreeze

[AntiCoup2K4]

93. I think the quote you are looking for might be Poppy's

What was it, Johnson said? If the American people really knew what happened, there would be chaos in the streets

I'm not sure if LBJ said that or not. But it sounds similar to something Poppy said.... "If the American people knew all of what we've done, they would lynch us in the streets".

I don't have an exact date on the quote, but I'm guessing it was in the Watergate era. And though it all seems like a different lifetime now, remember that there was only 9 years between the JFK murder and the Watergate break in, and definitely some of the same people (Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis to name two) were involved in both.

[Hippo_Tron]

52. Here's a better question, who killed his brother?

And is it just a coincidence, or not?

[LaPera]

53. And a demo rising star...his son, JFK jr.?

[Hippo_Tron]

54. I think that's a seperate question

The people who held high positions of power in 1999 are different than the people who held high positions of power in the 1960's (although some are the same). But remember that once Reagan came to power, a new breed of Republicans began to take office, a breed that we'd never seen before. My point is, that I think by 1999, we were dealing with a whole different animal.

That being said: JFK Jr, Mel Carnahan, Paul Wellstone. Coincidence?

[Totally Committed]

57. I don't and said so at post #40:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2162353&mesg_id=2162899

Statistically, what has happened to the Kennedys is impossible to explain away.

TC

[No Exit]

58. Some say it was the CIA

Some say JFK pissed off the CIA, see...

Do we know any other presidents who've pissed off the CIA?

[No Exit]

60. Then there are those who say it was a Latin American leader

whom JFK had allegedly tried to assassinate.

Do we know any other presidents who've allegedly tried to assassinate any Latin American leaders?

[frogmarch]

62. Oswald

killed JFK and acted alone. That's my opinion. Why is it so hard for many to believe that Oswald did it? The man was a loose cannon, with assassination on the brain.

Excerpt from Wikipedia article on Oswald:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald

General Edwin Walker was an outspoken anti-communist, segregationist and member of the John Birch Society who had been commanding officer of the Army's 24th Infantry Division based in West Germany under NATO supreme command until he was relieved of his command in 1961 by JFK for distributing right-wing literature to his troops. Walker resigned from the service and returned to his native Texas. He ran in the six-person Democratic gubernatorial primary in 1962 but lost to John Connally, who went on to win the race. When Walker came to Oswald's attention in February 1963 the general was making front page news with an evangelist partner in an anti-Communist tour called Operation Midnight Ride.

Oswald put Walker under surveillance, taking pictures of the general's home and nearby railroad tracks (with the same camera Marina later used to take the famous backyard poses). Oswald mail-ordered a rifle (see below) using his alias Alex Hidell, having already mail-ordered a revolver in January. He planned the assassination for April 10, ten days after he was fired from Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. He chose a Wednesday evening since the neighborhood would be relatively crowded because of services in a church adjacent to Walker's home: He would not stand out and could mingle with the crowds if necessary to make his escape. He left a note in Russian for Marina with instructions for her to follow should he be caught. Walker was sitting at a desk in his dining room when Oswald fired at him from less than a hundred feet (33 m) away. Walker survived only because the bullet struck the wooden frame of the window which deflected its path, but was injured in the forearm by bullet fragments.

The Dallas police had no idea who attempted to kill Walker. Marina saw Oswald burn most of his written assassination plans in the bathtub, although she hid the note he left her in a thick Russian book of household advice, intending to bring it to the police should Oswald again try to kill Walker or anyone else. Oswald's involvement was unknown until the note and some of the photos were found by authorities following the assassination of JFK. The bullet was too badly damaged to run conclusive ballistics studies, though neutron activation tests later proved the bullet was from the same cartridge manufacturer as the two which later struck Kennedy.

[No Exit]

64. I dunno.

"Why is it so hard for many to believe that Oswald did it? The man was a loose cannon"

I dunno. Why is it so hard for many to believe that Cheney and his WH Iraq Group were creating false "intelligence" in order to fool us sheeple into thinking Iraq was a nookular threat to us?

[nvliberal]

65. I wouldn't waste my time with nonsense about

a "conspiracy" to kill JFK.

It's just too bad people can't face the reality that Lee Harvey Oswald, a buck-something-an-hour order picker in a book warehouse, a nobody, killed the president, Officer Tippitt, and wounded Governor Connally.

It's fact, and anybody who believes differently is either a fool or a flat-earth type.

We need to get past the slandering of people long dead just so some authors and crackpot "researchers" can make a buck.

The country has known since shortly after the shootings who did it. There's simply no mystery here.

If Oswald had not been killed by Jack Ruby (and nobody else did it or ordered it), he would have been tried, convicted, and possibly executed in the easiest murder case ever prosecuted in the United States.

Ruby wanted to spare Jackie Kennedy the pain of a trial, but he did the country a horrible disservice.

[LittleClarkie]

66. Johnson?

Sorry, first thing that popped into my head.

[INdemo]

71. Nixon ?

Nixon's political ambitions would have been his motive.

[GRLMGC]

80. How about no nt

[LittleClarkie]

82. Sorry I was having a Gallagher moment

He commented on the difference between JFK's assassination and Reagan's attempted assassination. I think he was making the point about how much more interesting the 60's were. In the 60's, we didn't know who killed JFK and it could have been anyone: Nixon, Cuba, CIA, FBI, jokingly adding "Johnson" at the end. In the 80's we knew exactly who: Hinckley with his little gun.

Sorry. Bad taste I suppose. I remember thinking it funny at the time. And it was the first thing that entered my mind.

[GRLMGC]

84. eh

don't apologize. It just kinda bothers me when people say that. Don't ask me why. I'm weird like that,haha

[Samantha]

72. There's an excellent book entitled something like Blood, Power and Money

It is written by Barr McClellan, believe it or not, Scott McClellan's father. He is an attorney in Texas. One of the partners in his firm was Lyndon Johnson's personal attorney from the inception of Johnson's political career.

McClellan says Lyndon was behind the JFK slaying. He documents it very well. He also says many knew ahead of time John Kennedy would be slain when he came to Dallas. He mentions a large meeting, one in which Nixon and Hoover, no less participated.

McClellan prints a list of 18 people Johnson had murdered over his lifetime. One was his own sister.

Read this book and return to this read to finish this discussion. Your thoughts will be changed forever on the subject. I will check out the exact name of the book and correct it on this thread if I have it wrong, but you can find it by the author's name.

[ticapnews]

73. Alger Hiss and his magic pumpkin?

eom

[Samantha]

76. Blood, Money and Power (How L.B.J. Killed J.F.K.)

by Barr McClellan (Noted L.B.J. Authority and Personal Attorney)

Quotes from the back cover:

"Johnson tapped his top confidant and personal adviser, Edward Clark, to handle the dirty details, ..." (Note: the author of the book was in partnership with Edward Clark at a law firm in Texas). Quote is from the New York Daily News.

"Former U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson ordered the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, according to the father of the current White House press secretary. McClellan is the father of White House press secretary Scott McClellan, and Food and Drug Administration Commission Mark McClellan. He says he has photographs, letters and fingerprint samples -- that the ambitious Johnson was behind the 1963 assassination in Dallas, Texas." The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." John F. Kennedy

[LSK]

79. the military industrial complex

JFK would have ended the cold war and that would have been bad for business.

[leftofthedial]

83. the predecessors to the cabal that gave us

Reagan, Iran Contra, Iraq I and II, 9-11, and the near destruction of the Murkan economy