CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 01:17 PM
Original message |
Is there a disconnect with moderate dems on impeachment? |
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This Sunday's Providence Journal had a feature piece called the "I" Word. It is clearly forefront, but it seems to clearly suggest the Democratic Leadership believes attacking Bush due to the poor prosecution of the Iraq War and the need for his Impeachment would galvanize GOP supporters.
I believe that other than GOP neocons their leadership is distancing itself from Bush and the War and Impeachment are the exact areas they need to be pounded upon.
If we can't withdraw from Iraq, then there are no legitimate promises the Democratic Party can make to working and middle class families until well after 2008 and that is three years too many.
I think this weak maneuver will be seen by many Democrats as the same lack of opposition and leadership we expect from elected officials. It might leave many Dem and Independent progressives feeling it's not worthwhile to go to the polls if it's more of the same.
Thoughts?
Carl Sheeler for US Senate www.carlsheeler.com
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Joey Liberal
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Sun Apr-02-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message |
1. I'm sick of the weak Democrats |
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Why do we always let Bush and the republicans off the hook? Why can't we, as a party, ever stand united? We need to quit worrying about the GOP and go for the jugular. I'm with you on this Carl.
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Jack Rabbit
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Sun Apr-02-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message |
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They may be wise to wait until the polls indicate that support for impeachment rises to 60% among all voters. However, this does at least create the illusion that Democratic Congresscritters are disconnected from rank-and-file Democratic voters, 70% of whom favor Feingold's censure resolution, if not impeachment.
There is an open and shut case for war crimes or crimes against humanity against Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Gonzales. The first four willfully lied to start what they knew was an unnecessary war of aggression against a sovereign state; Mr. Gonzales, in collaboration with Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, devised plans to violate the Geneva Convention and the Convention against Torture, to both of which the US is a party.
Now we'll start talking about willful violations of civil liberties and corruption surrounding no-bod contracts for Halliburton.
Censure is far too mild a remedy for the threat to democratic institutions that this regime poses. Impeaching Bush by itself will be a remedy. We need a regime change, now.
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AndyA
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
6. The polls are at 53% favoring impeachment. Not far to go, |
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but 53% is a majority. (This was from Zogby.)
The hypocrisy is overwhelming. Clinton got caught, he did something he shouldn't have done, but nobody really got hurt (except for Hillary, perhaps), and look at what happened.
Now compare that to what George Bush has done. Yet NOTHING is happening. The double standard should be very evident to every American, regardless of party. This is not the American way.
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Jack Rabbit
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
7. It is beyond question that it was silly to impeach Clinton over a blow job |
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It is also silly not to impeach Bush and Cheney for lying in order to get us into a war, for abuse of power, for willful violation of treaties and international humanitarian law and war profiteering.
The Republicans see the numbers and are starting ads to nip the impeachment movement in the bud. It may be ready to flower.
I think we can do this thing by next year.
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sendero
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Sun Apr-02-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
22. The Republicans need to be taught.. |
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... a lesson. That lesson is "be prepared to live under the climate you create".
The Clinton impeachment was a complete travesty, and the American public saw is as one. I'm conflicted on this current meme that promoting impeachment would energize the base. The base is always energized. The 30% idiot-contingent will be out in force NO MATTER WHAT.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
26. Agreed. If the DEM's showed fortitude then they eappeal to the |
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independents and dem moderates who swing with what they perceive as strength
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TheBaldyMan
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Sun Apr-02-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
34. Bill was impeached because he committed perjury. |
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Bush point blank refuses to say ANYTHING under oath, I wonder why?
Even without this his cohorts are ending up in jail, one by one.
The only disconnect that moderates have is not with impeachment, it's a disconnection from reality.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Mon Apr-03-06 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #34 |
39. I think it is a psychology of denial not wanting to believe anyone |
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tehy either allowed to enter into a second term by not voting or not helping can screw up this country so badly.
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wyldwolf
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Sun Apr-02-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
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They may be wise to wait until the polls indicate that support for impeachment rises to 60% among all voters.
Yes. Look at recent history. Clinton had his highest approval numbers after his impeachment.
Democratic Congresscritters are disconnected from rank-and-file Democratic voters, 70% of whom favor Feingold's censure resolution, if not impeachment.
No. Currently, only 60% approve, with 30% not approving and 10% on the fence. We have to sway that 10%, IMO, and that isn't going to be hard considering the Bushies' recent performance.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
27. We're forgetting the fundamentals. Use what the GOP knows |
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what works. There's still an awful lot of people who think there's 9/11 tis to Iraq. If the elected and candidates made their case and went that way, the public would follow. Since they seem so unwilling (Feingold - censure), why would the public care? They think what's the point, they had no spine on Iraq....
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NanceGreggs
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Sun Apr-02-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message |
3. I've seen it right here in discussion threads ... |
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"If the Democrats can't stand up to Bush and his Administration, how will voters ever see them as strong enough to protect the country?"
This administration has plunged the country into debt, have consistently put the interests of Big Business above the well-being of everyday citizens, have waged war based on lies, and have broken the law without remorse or any sense of accountability.
Pointing out their wrongdoing shouldn't be a matter of partisan politics; it should be a matter of saving the country from further ruin. And the Democrats will have hard-working citizens at their backs if they STAND UP AND SAY 'THIS HAS TO STOP!'
At this juncture, IMHO, if the Democrats don't have the spine to take back a country that is literally being handed to them by a faltering administration, it is not the Democrats who stand to lose - it is the entire country.
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jwirr
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Sun Apr-02-06 01:37 PM
Response to Original message |
4. I believe that Dems who are holding back know that with |
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the congress we have now controlled by repugs that impeachment is not possible. The repugs will never do it. I suggest that all doubters wait till we have congress we can hope to control before they make these kind of judgments. Also even then I for one do not want to go from *ss to crash cart or Hasert. The problem with impeachment NOW is that the choices for succession are not better. However I do want to keep the censure/impeachment pressure up because it does the one thing that is truly needed at this point: it keeps the treasonous actions of this administration in the limelight.
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radio4progressives
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
8. Impeachment proceedings beginning in 2007/2008 is sort of too late.. |
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but.. there's no statute of limitations on impeachment - i suppose we'll just have to wait until after 2009 or 2013..or even later...
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jwirr
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
Jack Rabbit
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Sun Apr-02-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
15. Too many GOP Congresscritters would acquit Bush |
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. . . if he shot their mothers before them and laughed.
Besides, we are talking about not merely impeachment, but regime change. Cheney has to go too and to make sure that we begin the task of undoing the damage the junta has done, I prefer to wait until 2007 when Bush, bereft of a so-called Vice President, will then be succeeded by President Pelosi rather than President Hastert.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
28. Of course all would go. Their all guilty as sin. So what if they acquit. |
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The stench would stay on the party and anyone trying to defend that filth who currently sits in elected office. This is part of the grader strategy.
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ClassWarrior
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Sun Apr-02-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
35. It's never too late to do the right thing. |
CarlSheeler4U
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Mon Apr-03-06 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #35 |
40. Amen. Sometimes a concept lost on some... and for the life of me |
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I do not un derstand why. Do you?
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Minnesota Libra
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:03 PM
Response to Original message |
5. Stained dresses deserves impeachment - violating the Constitution don't nt |
Kenergy
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Sun Apr-02-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
17. I like your sig line n/t |
CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
paulk
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message |
10. If six years of GW Bush doesn't get "Dem and independent |
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progressives" to the polls, then they'll get what they deserve.
More elected Republicans.
If that's not motivation enough, what is?
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MasonJar
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message |
11. We cannot get an impeachment through the Pug Congress. We |
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must kick them out first. Let's do it.
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Jai4WKC08
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Sun Apr-02-06 02:59 PM
Response to Original message |
12. Moderate Dems in Congress... |
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Tend to come from red or reddish districts. It is much harder for them to openly support impeachment at this point in time.
Give 'em a chance. If we take back the House this year, our more liberal reps will be able to complete full investigations and lay the case for impeachment out before the American people. When the facts are more widely known and the voters come to understand the crimes Bush is guilty of (and they are ripe to be convinced), the moderate Dems will be more than happy to support impeachment.
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AtomicKitten
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Sun Apr-02-06 03:33 PM
Response to Original message |
13. I think it has more to do with the US being at war. |
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There is this unspoken rule about that, which I have no doubt is part of the appeal to BushCo in taking the US to war. It has given them the springboard to expand executive power. But there are the old-timers who are probably operating under protocol as we have known it; unfortunately never before in our history has an administration so taken advantage of that very protocol and in the end it is protecting them. I think the moderates would definitely consider impeachment once we are out of Iraq. But that may indeed be a Catch-22. The Republicans weaseled out of Iran Contra ultimately ending in pardons for the criminals. However, if any administration deserved impeachment, it is this one.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
14. We must do what is right for the country and show leadership |
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and not partisanship. That means call it what it is so the public regains its confidence in its elected officials.
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AtomicKitten
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Sun Apr-02-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
16. Unfortunately the Dems don't have the power (numbers) |
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for the proper remedy which indeed is impeachment. The best they can do is wrestle the reigns of power and THEN put in place proper oversight and investigative efforts that I have no doubt will end in impeachment and likely jail time for the criminals.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
19. I'm not sure I agree with the strategy |
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Why would Dems who are disenfrachised with their elected officials for lacking opposition going to reelect them plus keep in mind independents?
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AtomicKitten
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Sun Apr-02-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
20. they have no choice without the numbers |
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If people don't understand that, they won't be inclined to vote for them anyway.
That is something voters will have to decide.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
25. I think it's as meaningful whether the GOP keeps it from |
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occuring or not. They have to explain to the center and independent moderates why they're defending the swine of a prez'.
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AtomicKitten
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Sun Apr-02-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
33. They are NOT defending Junior |
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Christ, some of the scorched earth rhetoric here at DU makes conversations with my cat more attractive.
You need to understand that the Democrats have ZERO power in Congress to do anything and not confuse that with validating Junior's demented running of the country.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Mon Apr-03-06 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #33 |
38. Their power remains the public opinion and perception |
dolstein
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Sun Apr-02-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message |
18. I think the disconnect is between impeachment supporters and reality |
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The Democrats don't have the votes to impeach Bush, and I see no evidence that running on a pro-impeachment platform will propel the Democrats to majority status again.
Frankly, I think the left-wing obsession with impeachment is symptomatic of its general distrust of democratic processors. The left-wing has spend so much time litigating policy through the courts that they've grown dismissive of, if not outright contemtuous of, the political processes. Gore may have been robbed in 2000, but Bush won a both a popular and an electoral majority in 2004. We had our shot at beating Bush, but we blew it by nominating someone who reinforced all the perceived weaknesses of the Democratic Party.
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Telly Savalas
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
23. The left-wing litigates policy through the courts? |
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Kerry reinforced the perceived weaknesses of the Democratic Party?
Is that you Mr. Hannity?
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
31. One thing we can all agree. Dem's need to stop acting like girlie men. |
sampsonblk
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
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Bush has broken the law repeatedly, and lied to the public repeatedly. You are making a political calculation. The same could have been made during Nixon's time. Fortunately, Dems were more courageous back then.
The current political environment should not affect whether our party pursues impeachment or not. To follow your line of thought, IMO, is to perpetuate the "perceived weaknesses of the Democratic Party." Its time to go for it. The guy's a crook and a criminal.
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CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
32. 100% on the money. Fortitude builds cred' and votes! |
CarlSheeler4U
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Sun Apr-02-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
30. Some truths. I believe that handled correctly the public perception |
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is already way ahead of the weak elected who watch. This already holds true for handling of Iraq.
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TheBaldyMan
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Sun Apr-02-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
36. don't blame the victims, blame the perpetrators of the crime. |
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Edited on Sun Apr-02-06 08:53 PM by TheBaldyMan
Bush stole two elections, he has presided over a protracted spell of war profiteering, corruption and outright criminality. Impeachment proceedings are needed as soon as possible. If there isn't one single republican who is willing to put the country before party let them show where they stand now. Consider another stolen election and republican controlled house. Can't happen ?
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CarlSheeler4U
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Mon Apr-03-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #36 |
41. To some extent apathy allows victimhood. Compalcency too. |
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Of course attack the source, but it does not happen in a vacuum.
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TheBaldyMan
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Mon Apr-03-06 09:54 AM
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43. Apathy in congress & the media yes. Here at DU no. |
CarlSheeler4U
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Mon Apr-03-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #43 |
ClassWarrior
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Sun Apr-02-06 08:53 PM
Response to Original message |
37. Have you read EarlG's take on this? |
CarlSheeler4U
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Mon Apr-03-06 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #37 |
42. Well said. How many among us have done something to tip this issue in '06 |
opihimoimoi
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Mon Apr-03-06 05:33 PM
Response to Original message |
45. In weakening the DEM Party, you do yourself no good...for |
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what happens if the Dem Party remains in the minority Level...that the Pubs keep the majority/Power? Your vote would have less power.
Your DEM PARTY needs all the COLLECTIVE POWER it can get to effect Solutions needed for a TURNAROUND...
By reffering to DEMS as "Weak and Spineless, etc" you are helping the Republicans retain their power....
I should hope you refrain from making fellow Dems seem WEAK in order to strengthen your Odds come November...
What are your IDEAS to STRENGTHEN the DEM Party?
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opihimoimoi
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Mon Apr-03-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
46. Where are your answers to the Question? What are you doing to help |
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Strengthen the Dems odds for a win this year and 08?
Think for the Demoicratic Party and you are thinking for yourself....thats a key for you to use...
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radio4progressives
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Mon Apr-03-06 11:32 PM
Response to Original message |
47. Yes. Schumer Strategy Lead Boycott on Feingold Censure Hearing and |
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