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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 04:42 AM
Original message
Random thoughts from an ex-lurker
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 04:56 AM by origin1286
Hello all. Been lurking for a little while and figured it was about time to register and share my thoughts.

One thing I've noticed is there is so much bitterness and disrespect between the supporters of one candidate and supporters of another candidate. Despite the fact that all of these candidates presumably have good intentions and plan to do what they think is right, we continue to personally attack them and their supporters.

People want to sit back and claim that the GOP is propping up Obama because they think they can beat him. It is part of their "master strategy." Have any of you ever sat back and thought that maybe their strategy is to prop up the underdog in order to create dissension among the ranks and turn the race nasty? Perhaps they're propping up Obama in the hopes that Hillary will panic and run a slash and burn campaign and do the Republicans dirty work for them. This doesn't apply to just the candidates themselves. You can already see it with supporters making a stink out of Hillary showing a little fire in the debates, chain letters defaming Obama, etc, etc.

You guys gotta keep in mind that we all want a change. Whether you're for Obama, Edwards, or Clinton, you want something better than what we have. I won't sit here and rail on the Republicans because I don't vote the party I vote the candidate. But we all want what is best for our country, as do the candidates. The best way to achieve the change we all so desperately want is by uniting.

Now I delve into my political thoughts.

Claim: Obama can't win the general election

Absolutely bogus. Obama has the unique ability to inspire people from all walks of life and all parties. They rally around him. He has that charisma that makes people want to follow him. I see concerns voiced that the Republicans will play the race card, but I find that to be a stretch and even if they do, it will backfire. See, by running a relatively "nice" campaign, Obama has made himself out to be this innocent everyman out to change the world. He is Jimmy Stewart in It's a Wonderful Life. So when opponents attack him, people rally around him and get angry at the other candidate for unprovoked attacks. Any attacks on Obama make the other candidate seem like the villain, as Obama has made himself out to be the hero. Negative campaigning WILL NOT WORK against Obama. Obama can woo independents better than any candidate in either field. He can woo more republicans than any other democrat. What he lacks in traditional experience, he makes up for in intangibles.

Claim: Criticism of Hillary is Sexist

Please, just shut up. That's all I need to say about this.

Mclurkin

I admit I haven't read much on this, but as I understand it Obama had some anti-gay guy campaign for him.

While that might not have been the best idea, I don't see how it is relevant to Obama's stance on gay rights. I have a friend who dislikes gays, but I am a strong supporter of gay rights. The company one keeps is not always indicative of the stances on takes. Obama has gone on record supporting gay rights.

This is exactly what I was talking about in the first part of this post. Attacking our own candidates. I don't get it.



Random thoughts:

- Edwards "won" the most recent debate

- Hillary came across much better in this debate than usual. I did think she lost her temper a little bit and while watching it I said, "Uh oh, that could be here Dean scream." Watching it again, however, it wasn't as bad as I first thought, but doesn't soften her image which is something she needs to do. Obama isn't a strong debater apparently, but he held his own and came in 2nd by virtue of not screwing up.


- I've seen quotes posted where Obama leaves himself open to changing positions. What is wrong with that? People change their minds. Why do we expect candidates to be any different?

- The reason the "I'm the real candidate for change" argument won't work for Hillary is twofold.

1. Obama embodies change. Obama is younger than the typical candidate - a CHANGE. Obama is black - a CHANGE. Obama is not from a political powerhouse family - a CHANGE. Obama is a fresh face - CHANGE. Voters look at Obama and immediately think change. It is their instant association with him. His mere election represents change whether his policies do or not. Clinton is a woman, yes, but women breaking barriers has never been covered as much as a black man breaking a barrier. When people see Hillary they see someone who has been in the spotlight for almost 20 years. She is the face of status quo, fairly or not. She has been around. She comes from a political family. Her husband was already in office. The change argument doesn't work for her, regardless of whether she would actually be the one to change the most through policy. Negativity will only backfire if used against Obama.

2. Obama started the change argument. Since he has been in the spotlight, he's been seen as the "change" guy. While all candidates were talking about it, Obama really took that message over. By still clinging to the idea of change, it appears as if Hillary is playing "me too!" That does not suit her well if she's trying to come across as the real leader. She needs her own message.

If I'm Hillary, here is what I do. I don't attack Obama. I get off the change-wagon, at least explicitly. I start touting my record - specifics. Not general "35 years of change." I come with things I have changed. "Prior to me doing x, y was the case." I demonstrate my change without saying it. I stop campaigning with Bill. She can't campaign with Bill and still show she is change. When I do mention Obama, it will be contrast, not attack. "I've passed x bills, Obama has passed y bills." Things like that. Contrast, not attack.

They are sort of going that way now, but even that strategy is a long shot. The Obama campaign is built on an idea which is now almost exclusively associated with Obama. It just so happens that that idea has become the buzzword for both parties.

I also keep Edwards in the race through Super Tuesday. I don't know how to go about it. Whether it's backroom deals or what. Edwards is the only thing keeping Hillary alive. If Edwards drops, I'd be willing to bet 80% of his supporters go to Obama and the rout is on.

Anyway, this post is long enough.

Predictions for NH:

Obama 41%
Clinton 28%
Edwards 24%

McCain 33%
Romney 28%
Huckabee 14%



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DFLforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. You have given your post a lot of thought
interesting observations...but I don't think the GOP is propping up Obama or any other Dem. They're having enough trouble managing their own candidates!

Welcome to DU!!
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well argued, although we may disagree on some things...
Welcome to DU! :hi:
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. Welcome to DU
Good first post!

The primaries here are ugly but despite that they are healthy. We vet our candidates fully here eventually through the sniping. I know it can be painful to watch at times but in the end there are no suprises to any of us when we get to the nominee.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. You lost me with this:
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 05:27 AM by Tom Rinaldo
"Claim: Criticism of Hillary is Sexist

Please, just shut up. That's all I need to say about this."

Maybe some one has made such a sweeping claim, there are over 100,000 members of DU, but I haven't seen it. I've seen specific instances of attacks on Clinton called either sexist, or effected by sexism. It happens less often, but I've seen Obama supporters question whether some attacks on Obama have a racist component also. Sometimes I've seen arguements that some attackers have a sexist bias. Well some attackers of Obama have a racist bias also. Racism is real in America. But no one I know says that all criticism of Clinton or Obama is solely racist or sexist in nature.

Sexism, like racism,is real in American society - there is no other good reason to explaim why we still have not had a female President, and why women get token slots on the Supreme Court. It would be naive to think sexism can not play out at times in politics in some, not all, political attacks on a woman - Hillary included.

Most eveyone I see show concern about sexist treatment of Clinton acknowledges that there are real issues to debate also, and that people can critice her over legitimate issues without that being sexist. Your comment is insulting. And to follow that up with "shut up, that's all I need to say" is arrogant. Especially in the context of you wanting people to wade through a dozen paragraghs of commentary on things that YOU would rather talk about.

Later. I'll stay open to reading your future comments. I always appreciate folks moving out of lurker mode.

P.S. I made a substantial edit to my text text about 5 or 10 minutes after my initial post was entered.
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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Did you not see...
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 05:28 AM by origin1286
...the thread about Hillary's exaggerated "Dean Scream?" It was being called sexist despite the fact it was being called her "Dean Scream" moment. Do you not see the oxy moron there?

In virtually every thread that attacks Hillary's character (hot headed, unlikable, robotic), someone brings up the sexism argument.

And it's ridiculous.

If anything, it's equally sexist to claim the men are ganging up on Hillary simply because she is a woman. Sexism can happen to both sexes, you know.

Not only that, the only reason a person would interpret a not blatantly sexist statement as being sexist is if they already had Hillary's gender at the forefront of their mind. If they themselves were looking past gender, they wouldn't take common comments and events and turn them into sexist insults.

It's just ridiculous and detracts from any good debate about the meat and potatos of the things are actually said.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I don't have much time now to discuss...
...gotta run out the door soon, sorry. But that incident is a perfectly good point to debate. It is not something to simply dismiss with "Shut Up". I do not always agree with every argument made by someone who is in general agreement with my position on anything, but I think that women are treated differently by some when they are assertive than are men. I think that women are treated differently by some when they are emotional than are men. And I can think that in this case or others without suddenly subscribing to a theory that "men are ganging up on Hillary simply because she is a woman." That is an over simplified false choice. Yes I believe a sexist double standard is being employed against Hillary Clinton by some - not all, who cast her in a negative light while looking at that debate moment. This is all I have time for discussing right now.

P. S. By the way in fairness to you let me point out that I rewrote a part of my post above through edit after you first read it. I don't think it changed any essential points, but you should know that.
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Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Thank you for posting this.
Recommended.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. Welcome to DU
No, not all of us think all of the candidates have "good intentions and plan to do what they think is right".
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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well then...
That's your opinion.

How anyone can think any of the candidates running are actually out to harm the country is beyond me and reeks of too much conspiracy theorizing.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Or possibly just bad policy
Really bad, on China, India, middle income workers, what constitutes real help, etc. Because the beliefs about macro economy are wrong and/or too much time has spent away from regular people to the extent they believe Alan Greenspan's economy makes a hoot of difference to me.
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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yes but...
Just because their policy may be mad in your opinion doesn't mean they're not trying to do what's best for America...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Like Bush?
No, he's not trying to do what's best for America. He's doing what's best for the handful of individuals who have all their money invested in the multi-nationals. In their mind, they are America. One of our candidates has either come to believe the same thing, or is confused about how that approach hurts real people. I don't think someone with a 165 IQ gets confused.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Welcome and thank you
for your eloquence.

Well written and reasoned! :hi:
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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thanks all
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 05:37 AM by origin1286
For the welcome.

FYI, this is the first election I'm voting in. I missed voting in the 2004 elections by a month due to age (I would have gone Kerry in 04; I would have gone Bush in 2000). It's exciting!
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
13. Re #1 on your Obama list and change
Take a look at what you've written: younger, black, not a political family, fresh face. These are all superficial characteristics which say nothing about the policies he'd enact. This is why the Obama critics think both Obama and his supporters are favoring style over substance.

Edwards, on the other hand, has been out front, ahead of both Obama and Hillary, in defining the policies
regarding Iraq, health care, environment, energy, education that he would promote as President.
I'm supporting Edwards because I know what he's going to do. I have no clue what Obama would do
sitting at that negotiating table, getting along with everybody.
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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. But you're missing the point...
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 05:51 AM by origin1286
Edwards talks change, but doesn't look change. Edwards looks like the stereotypical rich politician. He speaks like the stereotypical rich politician. He has the stereotypical politician experience.

Mainstream America does not care about what Edwards or Clinton says they'll do. They can't get past just how standard those two candidates appear. They tune out their messages.

What initially catches their eye with Obama is how different he is. On style, he appears to represent change. However, style only gets his foot in the door. They then listen to Obama; research his plans. This in turn leads to them getting excited for him.

It's not cut and dry as you seem to be making it out to be. It's not style vs substance. Edwards and Clinton both have the substance of change, but not the style. Obama has the style of change and, the voters seem to feel, the substance of change as well.

My family is a very typical American family. Loosely follow politics but are hardly as in depth with it as most posters here are. My mom despises Hillary Clinton. My mom couldn't name a Hillary policy or something Hillary has done. My mom despises Hillary Clinton because she feels Hillary comes across as being such old news; too calculated; already had her turn; too status quo. So whenever Hillary speaks, my mom either tunes her out or simply points out the negatives while ignoring her overriding message. It's not fair, but it is what it is.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm not missing the point. What catches my attention is not how somebody looks .
The electorate made the mistake of choosing Bush and his folksy style over Gore and his intellectual
approach, by enough votes, that the FL manipulation of voting rolls by Jeb and Katharine Harris made it possible for the Supreme Court to get in the picture and throw the election to Bush.

I want people to start paying attention to the content, and not just style or appearance, of politicians.
Would I like to see a President other than white male? Hell, yes! But I'm not supporting
someone because of their looks or sex, I'm supporting someone because of their commitment to a political philosophy which matches my own. That said, Edwards has told me enough to know that I agree with him on a lot of issues. Obama hasn't told me enough (and I've read his books) about his core values and how that
translates to what he wants to get done.
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Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. you've hit several things on the head, origin.
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 08:37 AM by Anouka
thank you for putting these things into words about Edwards and Hillary -- and about the contrast with Obama, in people's perceptions.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. Welcome to DU!
:toast:
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. A lot of criticism of Hillary is blatantly sexist. Sorry if you don't want to hear about it.
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 06:25 AM by Perry Logan
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greyghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Or Hillary could simply be an asshole...
sorry if you don't want to hear about it.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. She certainly could be, but the "scream" posters were a*holes as well.
Just because a candidate is legitimately objectionable, doesn't entitle anyone to be prejudiced. And certain attacks show just that - and should be stopped - no matter who they are aimed at.
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greyghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. No doubt they were. However, Hillary remains an asshole;)eom
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Same here Obsessing on the "moment" WAS sexist. Other stuff - may not be
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 07:32 AM by robbedvoter
(war votes, etc) are pretty legit. Plenty there to use - so why debase yourselves with "she was angry! At men!"
Some good points otherwise.
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. the 'Dean scream' whether for clinton or dean-

was about an unfortunate moment in front of the camera. it has little bearing on the actual content of the moment. why is it sexist?

it was not pleasant to see the dean scream (ok, a little funny, but unfortunate it was my candidate..), and it was not pleasant to witness that moment with clinton.

i didnt hear any implied issue with her being angry 'at men'
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. There was NOTHING Saturday. I concluded it was sexist after reading posts here
about "plates flying in the Oval Office" "shrill" and other typical accusations women get while men get called "strong"
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. I guess the poster who called her "theWicked Witch of the West" wasn't sexist. The OP has now
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 08:48 AM by BleedingHeartPatriot
assured me that sexism just doesn't exist, so just shut up about it. Nice.

MKJ
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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Don't be petty
The game of two extremes with no exceptions of middle ground is one children play.

Of course sexism exists, and I'm sure there are some jerks who have made clearly sexist remarks.

However, for the most part...
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Your extreme was "Shut up" and a dismissal of its existence.
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 09:29 AM by BleedingHeartPatriot
I was enjoying your missive to that point. I was looking forward to your deconstruction of that particular issue, which I expected would be as well thought out and articulated as the rest of your post.

Sadly, it was yet another demand to "shut up" about it. I do appreciate that you've acknowledged it does occur.

Welcome to DU. As you might have noticed in this thread, I don't "shut up" very well. :-) MKJ
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
26. You are spot-on with everything but McClurkin...
he fucked up. It doesn't completely discount GLBT support him, but many, many people are still waiting for a resolution.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
29. The bestest real-early post I've read to date at DU.
Your points are mostly solid, although I don't think Hillary needs to "soften" anything. If anything, she needs to let go more often and stop sounding like such a robot.

But you're right about her needing to talk specifics in order to get any kind of traction in the weeks ahead. If she doesn't soon, she's gone daddy gone.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
32. Nominated.
This is an important post for DUers to read. Thank you for posting it!
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. To not see the overt sexism on this board is to be blind.
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origin1286 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Sexism
Oh it exists, but not every criticism of Hillary is sexist. That is what it is spun as quite often.

I should have elaborated rather than just said "shut up." I apologize for that. I was a bit tired and grumpy.
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greyghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Can't say I blame you, nice post. eom
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