The bottom line about the IWR. Here it is:

[cali]

"Mr. President, declaring war, or providing the authority to wage war, is the single most important responsibility given to Congress under the Constitution. As history has shown, wars inevitably have unforeseen, terrible consequences, especially for innocent civilians.

Blank-check resolutions, such as the one the President proposes, can likewise be misinterpreted or used in ways that we do not intend or expect. It has happened before, in ways that many people, including Members of Congress, came to regret. That is why a thorough debate is so necessary. And that is also why this Vermonter will not vote for a blank check for this President or any President. My conscience and the Constitution do not allow that."

this is just a snippet. read the whole speech in which Leahy compares this resolution to the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and accurately forecasts the future of the Iraq debacle, here:

http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200209/092602a.html

[patrice]

1. I heard it the day PL said it and cried. nt

[cali]

5. it was a remarkably prescient speech and

clear as the Vermont stream that runs behind my house. Everyone should read the whole thing.

[patrice]

8. Lucky you!

My niece is up there at Goddard. I've heard great things about Vermont; I should visit her when I can get away.

I've ALWAYS admired Leahy; wish he was MY senator!

[Barack_America]

2. If Hillary listened to that speech...

Then she has no right to claim that she didn't know she might have been voting for a war. Leahy spelled it all out for her, right there.

Can't she just admit that she made a mistake?

[cali]

6. I absolutely believe she knew what she was doing

and voted that way out of political expedience. I find that hard to forgive, with or without an apology.

[bvar22]

22. Obama wasn't alone.

Both Wellstone and Byrd (and others) condemned the IWR from the Senate floor.
Hillary heard them.
Hillary KNEW.
Hillary voted FOR a Death Sentence on thousands of innocent Iraqis because it was convenient.
Hillary has BLOOD on her hands.

Make no mistake, a vote FOR the IWR was a vote FOR War!

[Barack_America]

26. Not just convenient, put politically advantageous.

Gross.

[jpgray]

3. It was wrong to trust -any- president with such an open-ended resolution

One can fully believe that Hillary, Kerry, Edwards, etc. trusted that it would be used fairly, but that doesn't really change the fact that it was a bad vote. It is their trust of -this- president, and of course the unnecessary surrender of Congressional checks and balances to the executive branch that made this an inarguably bad vote. Even if they believed his intentions were noble (which was foolish in and of itself).

[sandnsea]

4. The bottom line is March 2003

she didn't oppose the invasion just days before we went in. If she wanted to continue the inspections, this was the time to be screaming about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYATbsu2cP8

[ProSense]

7. No, here is the bottom line on the IWR

The IWR: Who knew what and Bush's manipulation of the evidence

Leahy's statement predates the final version of the bill. It is absolute nonsense that this was a blank check or declaration of war.

[cali]

10. Of course it was a blank check and

history completely validates Leahy. In fact, it couldn't do so any more completely. It was a blank check and you can't deal with the fact that Kerry made the mistake of voting for it. Leahy wasn't wrong about ONE fucking thing. Kerry? I have the greatest respect for him, but he was flat wrong.

[ProSense]

13. A blank check and Bush violating the terms of the IWR don't make sense! n/t

[cali]

14. It was absolutely a blank check

It gave bushco the license to do what he did, and no one has been able to dispute that with a straight face.

[killbotfactory]

16. How could Bush violate the terms of the IWR?

It was left up to Bush to decide when diplomacy had failed.

[cali]

18. precisely.

In other words, it was a blank check. this really isn't hard to figure out.

[ProSense]

23. So Bush had no reason

to manipulate the evidence (remember it was after the IWR), submit falsified evidence to Congress (wrote about it in his letter) and then utter the sixteen-word lie in his SOTU?

He did all that because he wanted to incriminate himself when all he had to do was wait until March and invade Iraq?

[killbotfactory]

27. It was left up to his discretion

He lied, he cut short inspections, he bypassed the UN when it looked like they weren't going to rubber stamp his war, and what happened to him? Nothing. No one has been held accountable. Why?

[ProSense]

28. Why did he have to lie if he had a blank check/declaration of war?

You're not answering that question.

"No one has been held accountable. Why?"

For the same reason he hasn't been for torture, spying, etc.

[killbotfactory]

32. Because he could get away with lying

That's the point. He didn't have to go back to get congressional approval, or to prove that diplomacy had failed. All he had to do was say "oh well, tried my best, off to war" like he did. The judgment on whether diplomacy had failed was left entirely up to him.

[ProSense]

36. "He didn't have to go back to get congressional approval,"

Yes he did, and he lied to them. If he didn't need approval, he would have gone back to them with a lie.

[sandnsea]

24. That's why the actions after the vote matter

This doesn't need to be a debate about that vote. There are dozens of statements that show Hillary supported the actual war, covered Bush on the WMD lies, and totally muddled any chance Kerry had to get his message of ending the war out. SHE is the one that was saying all the shit to the media that was getting reported as agreeing with Bush.

[Skittles]

34. please

anyone who could not see that the repukes were honking for war was an I D I O T

[robbedvoter]

9. True dat.

[MethuenProgressive]

11. Edwards & Clinton voted Aye! & Bush ignored the contents of the resolution.

That's the completely ignored bottom line.
There was no Yes or No vote on starting a war with Iraq.

[cali]

12. Pat Leahy disagrees with you completely.

Who do I put more stock in, Methuen Progressive or Pat Leahy? Who's words are more eloquent and more educated and intelligent, Methuen Progressive or Pat Leahy?

That wasn't hard. Pat Leahy has it all over you.

[Ravy]

15. So, certainly we should not support impeachment for Bush lying to Congress.

They didn't believe his lies anyway.

Maybe we can turn this around so that Leahy is the bad guy for wanting to unnecessarily extend the sanctions on the Iraqi children?

I don't think the Senate should ever sign a blank-check either, but at the time it comes to a vote, it is shit or get off the pot. I do not claim the most evil connotation in characterizing the Senate votes, as some here do.

I do not believe Clinton, Edwards, Kerry, a host of others had unprovoked, unnecessary, pre-emptive strike in their hearts or minds when they cast their votes. I think they thought they were doing the right thing. Their contemporary statements indicate exactly that.

[cali]

17. Of course you don't. You support someone who was gung ho for war

Face it, Leahy was absolutely right. And his speech was spot on. Excuse do NOT cut it. Voting for that piece of shit was inexcusable.


And trying to turn it around so that Leahy is the bad guy, is just sad.

[Ravy]

21. I think you letting Bush off the hook is inexcusable.

People can make predictions, but they cannot KNOW how things would turn out.

There were people who did not want to invade Iraq because they thought the Iraqis would unleash WMD on our soldiers. Some people said to invade because Saddam would not use them. Which of them was right?

It is perfectly fine to sit back after the fact and claim you *KNEW* exactly what was going to happen. You may have thought what was going to happen, you may have thought things that could happen. But, NO ONE, on the floor of the Senate KNEW what was going to happen.

The fact is the IWR was going as many had wished for, UNTIL the invasion. Then only the neocons got their wish.

[cali]

31. I'm not letting bushco off the hook

clearly he's more to blame. I'm simply talking about the vote on this resolution. And sorry, some things you damn well can know. I did, Leahy did, most of the dems in the House did. 22 other Senators did, and so did millions of Americans.

Clearly Leahy knew that it was a BLANK CHECK, and that members of the Senate should never ever fucking give a president a blank check. You might read the whole speech.

Leahy was right. Edwards could have benefitted from listening to someone so much wiser.

[no name no slogan]

19. This part is especially true:

Blank-check resolutions, such as the one the President proposes, can likewise be misinterpreted or used in ways that we do not intend or expect.

Being against a war that started five years ago is fine and well. But you also need to STOP FUNDING THE WAR if you ever want it to stop.

Rubberstamping the White House's requests for more war money will not stop the war. Voting against his budgets will.

[cali]

20. Or voting against any more funding for the Iraq Occupation. n/t

[Zorra]

25. Good speech. Kucinich went even further:

Unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted, and illegal. The Administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/Bloodstained_Path.html

Dennis was somewhat more accurate than Sen. Leahy it seems.

[cali]

30. Actually not.

I can only conclude you didn't read the entire speech. And much as I admire Dennis, Leahy's is a far better speech.

[Cameron27]

29. Phew,

I'm so glad Kerry didn't get elected then, if that's the bottom line.

[Skittles]

33. I cannot vote for anyone who thought IWR was a good idea

it just SICKENS me

[oasis]

35. Those who value Leahy's judgement will get behind Hillary if/when he endorses her.

So I'll bookmark this.:applause: