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None of our candidates should be consorting with leaders of the "ex-gay" movement

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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:06 PM
Original message
None of our candidates should be consorting with leaders of the "ex-gay" movement
None of them.

And if an honest mistake is made, if they claim they didn't "know" in advance, they should then explicitly and forcefully denounce the entire "ex-gay" industry as the violently harmful sham that it is.

Democrats should not be associating with these people anymore than they should be consorting with racists.

There are millions of gay teenagers in this country who are completely politically powerless. They are under attack by these monsters.

Who's going to speak up for them if we don't?
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Did you miss Obama's sermon/speech today?
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 08:53 PM by Kittycat
Edited to correct spelling
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Would it matter?
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. yes.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. What did he say? nt
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. C/P of relevant section
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 08:47 PM by Kittycat
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4129627&mesg_id=4129627

And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community.

We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them. The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity.

Every day, our politics fuels and exploits this kind of division across all races and regions; across gender and party. It is played out on television. It is sensationalized by the media. And last week, it even crept into the campaign for President, with charges and counter-charges that served to obscure the issues instead of illuminating the critical choices we face as a nation.

So let us say that on this day of all days, each of us carries with us the task of changing our hearts and minds. The division, the stereotypes, the scape-goating, the ease with which we blame our plight on others – all of this distracts us from the common challenges we face – war and poverty; injustice and inequality. We can no longer afford to build ourselves up by tearing someone else down. We can no longer afford to traffic in lies or fear or hate. It is the poison that we must purge from our politics; the wall that we must tear down before the hour grows too late.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. I'm very glad he includes a mention of us in speeches
I think that's great.

But the issue here is the harm that is being done to gay teenagers by the "ex-gay" movement.

I'm glad he wants to "embrace" us. Now can he take fifteen minutes of his time and explicitly denounce the "ex-gay" movement as the destructive sham that it is?
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. That's what he was saying throughout the speech.
How in many aspects we're destructive and divisive and all accountable to what is happening around us. Whether by direct involvement, apathy, etc. That together we can all work to overcome these problems in our country, society, minds, etc.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I didn't miss it
He also didn't say anything any "ex-gay" movement leader wouldn't say.

They want to "embrace us" as well. Even pray for us --mostly they think we are vile sinners that need Jesus to cure to cure us of The Gay.

It's all very "Love the Sinner --Hate the Sin" garbage.
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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You must want a candidate who is athiest or agnostic, then.
Most, if not all, mainstream christian denominations believe homosexual behavior is sinful. I'm not saying that Obama shouldn't want the same rights for everybody (which he does), but you're taking it a step further; you seem to want his personal, religious beliefs to conform with yours.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The UCC doesn't
there are a lot of mainstream religions who now ORDAIN gays and lesbians, so your post doesn't make much sense.

Regardless, the specific issue here is gay teenagers. Our candidates should not be associating with people who make an industry out of violently harming gay teenagers.

Period.
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. You are 100% correct. I am UCC and there is NO gay-bashing at my church.
I couldn't associate with a church that believes gay people can be cured.

And I sure as hell won't EVER vote for a candidate who does.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Do you believe Homosexuality is sinful?
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. really? So it's just fine that he consorts with people that want gays to not be gay anymore
how hard is it not to hang out with them? If Obama consorted with groups that wanted women to get in the kitchen and them a sandwich would that also be ok?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Nope, most actually don't
Very few think "homosexual" behavior (I noticed your"homosexual") is sinful. Even fewer believe being gay is. The majority of mainstream Xian denominations DON'T believe it's sinful.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I doubt this person will return to answer anybody
another drive-by.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. You seem to be right
Lots of them lately, eh?
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. No, I want a candidate who doesn't call sh*t ; -- ice cream.
You seem woefully ignorant of LGBT issues and especially ex-gay movements like Metanoia Ministries or Exodus International. This sort of radical religious right influence on Democratic politics is absolutely unacceptable. Take off the Obama blinders and look at the big picture.
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KennedyGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Yep..say one thing..do another..
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Hopefully it was a serman and a serwoman and not two sermans because that would be immoral.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Wow, you're really pathetic, aren't you?
Excuse the typo, but I can't excuse your behavior.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. agreed on all points! n/t
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. YES
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. damn right.
these people shouldn't even be humored, they should be marginalized.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. DAMN RIGHT
Thank you. This hateful shit has no place in any Presidential campaign. It has no place in society, period.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well about praying with simple powerful homophobes? Is that OK?
what may startle people, including her supporters, is that the group she has associated herself with since 1993 which sponsors these groups as well as the National Prayer Breakfast is very conservative and exclusive. Known now as the Fellowship, it is a group that reporter Sharlet knows very well given his past investigative pieces in Harper's Magazine several years ago, and a Rolling Stone piece about Sam Brownback in 2006. Digby has written about this group as well. Even though Mother Jones will not post the piece online until Tuesday, I have been given permission to post segments of the piece in the extended entry. I encourage all of you to buy the current issue and read the piece for yourselves, because Hillary’s association with the Fellowship may lead some to question her judgment and true beliefs, given what the group stands for. http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/010937.php


Hotline-- Sept 2006

Hillary Clinton: The Faith Angle

Hillary Clinton’s hiring of “faith guru” Burns Strider as an adviser to her presumptive presidential campaign, reported two days ago in the Hotline, draws some rare attention to Clinton’s religiosity, as yet unexamined in the same way that ’08 heavyweights like Mitt Romney and, through his high-profile meeting with Pastor Rick Warren, Barack Obama have been.

In Clinton’s case, there’s plenty to examine: religion seems to be the only part of her life that hasn’t undergone rigorous scrutiny.


Though Strider, as a onetime staff member for Nancy Pelosi, is squarely in the liberal camp, Clinton is part of not one, but two, prayers groups with distinctly conservative bents: an exclusive Senate prayer group that meets on Wednesday mornings, and a women’s prayer group that she’s been a part of since her early White House days. The women’s group is run by Holly Leachman, a layperson at the McLean Bible Church in Virginia, itself magnet for prominent conservatives, including former independent counsel Kenneth Starr, Republican senators John Thune and James Inhofe, as well as several Bush staffers and their families.

Leach's prayer group includes many prominent Republican wives, among them Susan Baker, wife of Iraq Study Group co-chairman James Baker, who along with Leachman ministered to Hillary Clinton in the wake of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. (Leachman, mentioned briefly in Clinton’s memoir, Living History, is the wife of Washington Redskins chaplain Jerry Leachman).



Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics
For 15 years, Hillary Clinton has been part of a secretive religious group that seeks to bring Jesus back to Capitol Hill. Is she triangulating—or living her faith?

September 01 , 2007

Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."
<>These days, Clinton has graduated from the political wives' group into what may be Coe's most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast. Though weighted Republican, the breakfast—regularly attended by about 40 members—is a bipartisan opportunity for politicians to burnish their reputations, giving Clinton the chance to profess her faith with men such as Brownback as well as the twin terrors of Oklahoma, James Inhofe and Tom Coburn, and, until recently, former Senator George Allen (R-Va.). Democrats in the group include Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor, who told us that the separation of church and state has gone too far; Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) is also a regular.

Unlikely partnerships have become a Clinton trademark. Some are symbolic, such as support for a ban on flag burning with Senator Bob Bennett (R-Utah) funding for research on the dangers of video games with Brownback and Santorum. But Clinton has also joined the gop on legislation that redefines social justice issues in terms of conservative morality, such as an anti-human-trafficking law that withheld funding from groups working on the sex trade if they didn't condemn prostitution in the proper terms. With Santorum, Clinton co-sponsored the Workplace Religious Freedom Act; she didn't back off even after Republican senators such as Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter pulled their names from the bill citing concerns that the measure would protect those refusing to perform key aspects of their jobs—say, pharmacists who won't fill birth control prescriptions, or police officers who won't guard abortion clinics.

Clinton has championed federal funding of faith-based social services, which she embraced years before George W. Bush did; Marci Hamilton, author of God vs. the Gavel, says that the Clintons' approach to faith-based initiatives "set the stage for Bush." Clinton has also long supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a measure that has become a purity test for any candidate wishing to avoid war with the Christian right.
http://www.motherjones.com/cgi-bin/print_article.pl?url=http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html
---------------------------


Most of the prayer groups are informally affiliated with a secretive Christian organization called the Fellowship, established in the 1930s by a Methodist evangelist named Abraham Vereide, whose great hope was to preach the word of Jesus to political and business leaders throughout the world. Vereide believed that the best way to change the powerful was through discreet personal ministry, and over his lifetime he succeeded to a remarkable degree. The first Senate prayer group met over breakfast in 1943; a decade later one of its members, Senator Frank Carlson, persuaded Dwight Eisenhower to host a Presidential Prayer Breakfast, which has become a tradition.
<>
Hillary Clinton’s proficiency in this innermost sanctum has unnerved some of the capital’s most exalted religious conservatives. “You’re not talking about some tree-hugging, Jesus-is-my-Buddha sort of stuff,” says David Kuo, a former Bush official in the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, who worked with Clinton to promote joint legislation and who, like Brownback, has apologized to her for past misdeeds. “These are powerful evangelicals she’s meeting with.” Like many conservatives, they are caught between warring dictates of their faith: the religious one, which requires them to embrace a fellow Christian, and the political one, more powerful in some, which causes them to instinctively distrust the motives of a Clinton. Everyone in Washington experiences their dilemma at one time or another—the lack of an Archimedean point from which to judge Hillary Clinton.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200611/green-hillary







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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Sorry Frenchie
but this isn't a partisan issue for me. This is about kid's lives. If Clinton or Edwards were lending credibility to leaders of the ex-gay movement, I would denounce them for it. All of our candidates need to be very clear on this. I want them ALL to address it, not just Obama.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Sorry ruggerson that you believe that you can make rules as to what is acceptable
and what is not......

I don't care so much about some ex-gay movememt as much as I care how the Gay agenda is being stopped and is being exploided as a wedge issue. I think that the latter is what is stopping human rights for Gay Americans much more than a single person.

I think that you have your priorities mixed up, and that you are not keeping your eye on the prize.....that of passing legislature to bring equality to to Gay people, and instead are chasing one of many flies in the ointment and attributing guilt by association.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. The only thing I can do
is make rules of what is acceptable or unacceptable to me, by my guidelines.

And regardless of your thoughts on the "gay agenda" (which you apparently don't known is a religious rightwing buzzword that they use to oppose our equality), I want to make sure our candidates understand exactly how destructive and immoral the "ex-gay" movement is. It's not that tough a concept to grasp.
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FunkyLeprechaun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Good post
I agree with you.

I brought up the DOMA just a few minutes ago and was told that they were two different things (An ex-gay supporting Obama vs Hillary's support of DOMA).

I'm thinking about taking a break from DU... this is all getting a bit too much for me.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Some call it hypocricy......
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 08:49 PM by FrenchieCat
which is all that it is.

Some folks are judged more strictly than others. It is simple a case of double standards. It's allright to do something as personal as pray with those who have done all that they could to stop the Gay agenda towards civil rights by using those issues as a wedge to divide the electorate.....

That is so less powerful to the Gay's agenda then some one person who happens to have made an appearance somewhere. :sarcasm:

Were supposed to believe any old thing, I guess. :eyes:
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. "The Gay Agenda"????
Please...for the love of God...stop already. Please, please, please quit while you're..well, "ahead" may not be the right word....
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Bad choice of words, you are correct......
But my meaning was not that of the RW. Sorry.

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hulklogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. The gays agenda? WTF does that mean?
:silly: The Obamanauts are gettin' crazier by the day.
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FunkyLeprechaun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. I am very tempted to use the eye-rolling smiley as well
I really do think Obama is reaching out to the GLBT community (he's got Obama Pride on his website) whereas Hillary's website doesn't have that. (The only thing I found was of a newsletter from June of last year). Obama also reaches out for other people as well.

I am absolutely disgusted with her tactics and it has removed any respect I had for Bill as well.

It's almost like I read T.S. Eliot and that makes me an anti-Semite, I'm friends with my gay friend's father who still doesn't accept his son is gay and thinks his female friend is his girlfriend and that makes me a homophobe, I had to watch Birth of a Nation for history class and that makes me a racist.

Come on... it's really stretching and trying to get people NOT to vote for Obama...

I might as well change my avatar to Obama, will do that in a second.
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Your Clinton obsession has diminished your capacity to empathize with LGBT people.
If you find homophobic pandering so intolerable of Clinton then perhaps you'd be willing to write to your candidate and ask him to publicly condemn Metanoia Ministries.* When Obama does that, I'll be among his greatest advocates.

*same goes for any of the other "front runner" candidate supporters
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. No double standard at all. Obama is complicit.
Not every LGBT person here supports a front runner candidate. I certainly don't. None of them offer vision or leadership publicly on my issues and I criticize all equally for it. Your argument that it's a case of double standards rings false to me.

And as I mentioned to you in another thread: two wrongs don't make a right. Your finger-pointing at Clinton is a poor defense of Obama's complicity.
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. Would you be willing to ask Obama to condemn Metanoia Ministries?
I've seen you post this argument in more than one thread so let me ask you: If you find Clinton's actions/position/duplicity so indefensible why don't you ask Obama to distance himself from the anti-gay endorsements he seems to garner?

You know as well as I that he won't condemn anti-gay religious leaders. That makes him complicit. So, get off this "Hillary does it, too" argument. It's weak at best.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
38. What about anti-gay Reverands who think Homosexuality is just awful?
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