Please - both of these (money-appointed) frontrunners are fiascoes.

[JackRiddler]

First of all, Obama is never going to win. If you think racist America has turned into a different country, you are in for an ugly, ugly surprise in November. It's fucked, it's wrong, but it is what it is. You haven't seen yet what the Republicans are going to do with race as soon as they get him (which is why he is so obviously their wish candidate). It will all be on the ground, they'll treat him personally very nicely but the media will magically discover 1,001 racial conflict stories to promote. And his empty formula of change-blah-blah isn't going to inspire the force, the movement to overcome that. Charisma is cute, but where's the substance?

I say this as someone who might vote for him in November - might as well - although I will never again vote for H.R. Clinton. Truth to tell, the inevitable Obama loss will probably work out better than the entirely possible general election victory of H.R. Clinton, whose presidency will be a complete fiasco. Too much baggage: all the RW attack strategies of the first Clinton administration will be applied with the same paralyzing effect. Thanks to the earlier Clinton presidency she will arrive as the most hated-in-advance president ever. (This has nothing to do with her being a woman, and everything to do with her being a member of a dynasty.)

Politically she is not equipped to do anything about the shitstorm of crisis that has already arrived. She won't reverse the criminal government of the past eight years, she won't hold the Bush regime accountable for their vast crimes, and once again all of the deviants in our power elite will have learned that crime is all upside.

She won't end the rape of Iraq. She won't respond to the economic collapse with anything other than protection for the rich and rhetoric for the rest. She hasn't even bothered to promise anything progressive, so she won't be betraying the progressive facade (as the first Clinton did). She will implement the same old class-war shit as her husband. She will go down in flames if she is the nominee again in 2012 - the one bright side is the high probability she would be pushed out by her own party in advance of that disaster.

If you want McCain or Romney or Father Huck in November, by all means go with Obama. It makes a real Democrat possible in 2012.

If you prefer Jeb Bush or some such in 2012, then H.R. Clinton is your ticket.

Meanwhile, Edwards may be full of shit (given the contrast between his rhetoric and his voting record), but he's the only one even talking the talk. If you want a Democrat in 2008 who might actually change something and then win again in 2012, then I guess he's the only option (unless the convention deadlocks, which sadly it never does).

[matcom]

1. you are missing an apostrophe

[JackRiddler]

3. ?

[FrenchieCat]

2. Maybe you don't believe that Obama can win......

because he's Black.....but it is precisely people like you who are out to make that happen, saying a candidate's color is why he can't ever be. It is precisely his blackness that will make people sit up and listen. By the time he is through, more than a large majority along with all of the new voters that this will activate will give us the numbers we need to make it happen; a Democratic Victory.

Edwards having accepted matching funds will be roasted like a marshmallow over a fire pit by the Republicans till August 28. They will take apart his flip/flops like nobody's business...and there's plenty of material. Hedgefunds, Hair and "The war on Terror is nothing but a bumper sticker" will be added in for good fun. It won't be pretty, and President McCain will be laughing all the way to the White House.

[Andy823]

12. Enough with the match funds crap

It's been shown that makes no difference, and you know it.

Go to this site and look at the "cash on hand".

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/index.asp?cycle=2008

The only republican with more money that Edwards is Rudy, and he is not going to win the nomination!

Obama doesn't stand a chance against McCain, and that's who it looks like is going to win the republican nomination. McCain will chew him up and spit him out! If we want the whitehouse back, we better start thinking about the who can beat McCain, and that's Edwards, no matter how much you hate him, his is the best chance we have to take back this country!

[JackRiddler]

13. Not so impressed with McCain... but...

He is one unstable and nasty motherfuck, who got all those people killed at the Iraqi market without consequence. In a match up against Obama, I will definitely vote for Obama. (I will never vote for Clinton as that is merely to have a four-year fiasco and a Republican in 2012.)

Unfortunately McCain can be parlayed into a win against Obama. McC has the rep - for no good reason - of moderate and someone who stood up to Bush (bullshit!!!!!) and he's a war hero (caught while dropping bombs on barefoot peasants, sorry but someone should finally say that). He won't appear to be an extremist and he will appeal to precisely the neurotic white suburbanites who will vote against the black man without admitting their racism to themselves.

[Seen the light]

4. Oh no! A racist not voting for a Democrat!

I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! Thank you for this illuminating insight! :P

Seriously though, I've heard that thing about Obama a million times and what makes you think that your typical racist redneck-type is going to vote for Senator Clinton or Senator Edwards either?

[JackRiddler]

7. This is what I mean about the ugly, ugly lesson

And honestly, if it is Obama running, I hope I learn an opposite lesson.

But the problem is not the "typical racist redneck" you imagine. When the states full of nice, well-spoken white people who would never be mistaken for "rednecks," or who would never say anything racist (outside their own home) go Republican, you will see what I mean.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

8. I know what you mean!

There are those who won't vote for a woman,any woman!

If the media would cut the crap, and do some real reporting...
What they find may be truly myth shattering!

Who is the real deal? That's THE bottom line for me!
Britney vs Christina Effect-- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4184887

[Seen the light]

9. How do you think Obama won Iowa then? nt

[JackRiddler]

10. He did? I thought Father Huck won Iowa.

Did they have a general election in Iowa? They didn't even have a primary!

[avaistheone1]

16. Alot of crossover Republicans and the E85 corn lobby.

Neither of whose company makes me happy.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

5. K&R ! " Martin Luther King III to John Edwards: I challenge all candidates to follow your lead"

"Edwards is committed to going to bat for everyday Americans and to changing a broken political system that leaves millions of Americans without a voice in their government."

"He will fight to restore the freedom of workers to form unions and raise their standard of living through collective bargaining."

"He'll challenge trade policies that export jobs."

"John Edwards will restore the principle of one America with opportunity for all, instead of one America for wealthy elites and another for the rest of us."

"He will fight to restore the freedom of workers to form unions and raise their standard of living through collective bargaining."

"He 's laid out a plan that will lead to universal health care for every single American."

"He'll work to halt global warming and secure the health and safety of generations to come."

--" Martin Luther King III to John Edwards: I challenge all candidates to follow your lead"
'…I appreciate that on the major issues of health care, the environment, and the economy, you have framed the issues for what they are - a struggle for justice. And, you have almost single-handedly made poverty an issue in this election." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4147131

[Bonobo]

6. They were picked long before the people had any say in it.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. Since I have nowhere else to chat and "throw things out there"...

I'll risk the wrath of - everyone - and share my thoughts and observations.

I actually think you're right, JackRiddler.

First off, I'm obviously an Edwards supporter, so I don't think he's full of shit...lol...I resonate with his message strongly, so I'm comfortable backing him. I'm also comfortable with him because he's been through this before and I believe he can handle the attacks and smears to be launched in the general election.

I don't dislike either of the other candidates. I do dislike some of what they stand for and are doing of late, primarily doing things that seem to be pandering to the right. I don't care if it's the smart political thing to do, it seems...I can't think of the word, but I just don't like it. Save that for the GE. We're in the primary season for cryin' out loud, and there's a long way to do and, as we're seeing, ANYTHING can happen.

I will interject that I do feel the Powers that Be certainly have a plan and are manipulating a storyline. Since this is one of Edwards issues (corporatocracy), my hope is that a groundswell movement will take hold and people will speak up and vote for who gives them a voice, in spite of what the MSM is telling them will happen.

Now, obviously the following is just my opinion based on personal interactions. My entire life I have been surrounded by Republicans. McCain type of Republicans. If he's the nominee, they'll vote for him in a heartbeat. No questions asked.

And, like everyone else here who feels the same way about the state of racism in this country, I hate it, hate it, hate it. And I've spoken against it loudly and often throughout my life.

But, based on what I've experienced, I can tell you that:

1. These people despise the Clintons. Not dislike - DESPISE. I have no doubt people who may not normally vote would do so just to vote AGAINST her. Her negatives are real. I'm not judging her or Bill. It's simply a statement of fact that half of the country either despises them or just doesn't want to "rehash that shit." Too much baggage indeed.

2. Now, with regard to Obama. It comes down to plain old racism. No need to mince words here. I'm not sure they would come out to vote AGAINST him as they would Hillary (lots of the middle-of-the-road Republicans I speak of aren't politically active and they don't always vote).

But, I have to doubt the belief that Obama would get a decent amount of crossover votes. I just don't see it. And I'm not just talking about southern republicans; I have family and friends in the North who are the same way as far as their viewpoint. I know...it sucks royally. I even have a cousin who was president of the regional Young Republicans (:puke: ).

However, hopefully there are some people who have been surrounded by racism and don't speak out against it but silently rebel against it, and would vote secretly for Obama that way. I'd rather they speak out against it, but a lot of people won't - they feel it would jeopardize relationships with family and friends. I obviously never gave a shit.
:hippie:


As for who the Republicans want to run in the General, I'd say it's a toss-up between Hillary and Obama, for the above reasons.

I'd say EVERYONE is against Edwards. The Republicans, while they could certainly swiftboat him, they don't have the built-in bias in their base as with the other two candidates.

And Corporate America is DEFINITELY against Edwards. That alone is reason for me to vote for him. :evilgrin:


These are just my observations and experiences. I hope my "take" is very, very wrong about racism in America. I do think this entire process we're going through now will eventually go a long way in healing the remnants that remain; the boil has to come to a head before it can heal.

Thanks for allowing me to share. I'm not dissing anyone, just sharing my two cents.

[JackRiddler]

14. kick

[robbedvoter]

15. Flaws nothwithstanding, each of them can beat any GOP-er and is light years better

than them So thank you Ralphie, but not this year either.

[JackRiddler]

17. Ha!

Referring to your sig line:

Would either of these frontrunners bother to question the vote count if it went against them?

I believe Kerry and Gore both got more votes from real humans than Bush or Bush. What happened then?

If/when it repeats, do you really believe Clinton or Obama would challenge for shit?

[FrenchieCat]

18. Obama is doing it now in Nevada.

And has co-sponsored some legislation on election reform.

And certainly responsible for 150,000 new voters in just one small area of Chicago, back in 1992!


Vote of Confidence
A huge black turnout in November 1992 altered Chicago's electoral landscape—and raised a new political star: a 31-year-old lawyer named Barack Obama.

In the final, climactic buildup to November's general election, with George Bush gaining ground on Bill Clinton in Illinois and the once-unstoppable campaign of senatorial candidate Carol Moseley Braun embroiled in allegations about her mother's Medicare liability, one of the most important local stories managed to go virtually unreported: The number of new voter registrations before the election hit an all-time high. And the majority of those new voters were black. More than 150,000 new African-American voters were added to the city's rolls. In fact, for the first time in Chicago's history-including the heyday of Harold Washington-voter registrations in the 19 predominantly black wards outnumbered those in the city's 19 predominantly white ethnic wards, 676,000 to 526,000.

None of this, of course, was accidental. The most effective minority voter registration drive in memory was the result of careful handiwork by Project Vote!, the local chapter of a not-for-profit national organization.

"It was the most efficient campaign I have seen in my 20 years in politics," says Sam Burrell, alderman of the West Side's 29th Ward and a veteran of many registration drives.

At the head of this effort was a little-known 31-year-old African-American lawyer, community organizer, and writer: Barack Obama.

To understand the full implications of Obama's effort, you first need to understand how voter registration often has worked in Chicago. The Regular Democratic Party spearheaded most drives, doing so using one primary motivator: money. The party would offer bounties to registrars for every new voter they signed up (typically a dollar per registration).

The campaigns did produce new voters. "But bounty systems don't really promote participation," says David Orr, the Cook County clerk, whose office is responsible for voter registration efforts in the Cook County suburbs. "When the money dries up, the voters drop out." Nor did the Democratic Party always vigorously push registration among minorities, Orr says. "It's not that they discouraged it. They just never worked hard to ensure it would happen."
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-1993/Vote-of-Confidence

Read the whole damn article.

[JackRiddler]

20. Interesting!

Thank you.

[robbedvoter]

19. I am going to have to hope that.

[Prophet 451]

21. Oh, PLEASE let them run Father Huck!

OK, the Repub base would all vote for him but I don't think anyone else would. His religious extremism scares the shit out of independants, even conservative ones. He did well in Iowa because it's fucking Iowa but he's way too extreme to stand a chance in hell of winning.

[JackRiddler]

22. Unfortunately things can be spun...

The know-nothing nice-guy act has worked before, and unfortunately it's the media's call whether they'll emphasize his extremism or focus on some other bullshit instead. Fact is, with the system in this country, if one of the two monopoly parties chose Hitler himself, for the election season the media would still treat him as a contender.