Clinton wants Florida and Michigan delegates reinstated

[rndmprsn]

say anything/do anything...change nothing.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2533575920080126

ROCK HILL, South Carolina (Reuters) - Sen. Hillary Clinton, in an about-face, said on Friday she wants the Democratic Party delegates in two states that were barred by the national party to be reinstated and counted in the race to determine the party's U.S. presidential nominee.

In those states, Michigan and Florida, Clinton could stake claim to nearly all the delegates to the nominating convention in question -- more than 350.

She was the only candidate on the Democratic ballot in Michigan and holds a strong lead in Florida, which holds its contest on Tuesday...

...In Michigan, Clinton won the primary after the other major candidates pulled their names from the ballot. Polls show she holds a strong lead in Florida, where all the candidates are on the ballot.

[Seen the light]

1. She absolutely disgusts me

I hate for Michigan and Florida voters to not have any say, but it was the fault of their own fucking leaders that stubbornly thought they could do whatever they wanted to.

If she gets her way on this, I'm dropping my Democratic affiliation.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

32. If Florida's votes get to count you're dropping your D affiliation? Wow.

[Seen the light]

36. If they change it after Florida votes

Then hell yes. You want to talk about disgusting...

[Proud2BAmurkin]

46. Why? Voters know it might be changed

[bellasgrams]

60. My family in FL are disgusted that their votes won't count.

I don't know how they will vote. Some are Dems some Repb. we kinda have to not talk politics when all together. I do know they don't like to think that their votes don't count. The gov is happy to get their tax money.

[DaLittle Kitty]

50. Hillary IS THE WHINER... Just Like Bush, Always Has To Change The Rules To Be In HER FAVOR!

ICK! :puke:

[bellasgrams]

61. Maybe her favor, maybe not. In America the votes should count

[bellasgrams]

58. I read last week that the dems would probably honor the delegates

I have family in FL they are Americans and want their votes counted just like other people. Just because Dean did this doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. All the candidates agreed not to campaign and run ads. That's ok. But people should still get their votes counted and have a say in the election. By the way, BO is the only one who is running ads after agreeing not too.
So I guess if BO or Edwards wins in FL you would not want their delegates to count?

[Seen the light]

64. ...

His ads are national ones that are appearing in every market if I'm not mistaken.

And you're right. If Obama or Edwards wins, I would still not want their delegations seated. The only thing I would be willing to do for both Michigan and Florida would be a revote somewhere down the line.

[havocmom]

2. Don't like the rules, beak the rules, face the punishment, but HRC wants to change the rules

in the middle of the game, and only when it benefits HRC? :wtf:

NOT the sort of change we were looking for, Hillary.

[papau]

9. it is not breaking the rules to ask for a convention vote on seating delegates - happens

every convention.

[havocmom]

23. Breaking the rules refered to moving up primary dates in violation of DEM Party rules

The states involved knew what would happen and did it anyway. No where did I say HRC broke rules. She is trying to change them now and that seems less that cricket. And NOT the sort of change we are really after.

[Cronus Protagonist]

14. *DING* Yuo win the prize for the most creative use of 2000 GOP talking points

It's really fun in politics, to see the propaganda wend its way across the party lines like this. :P

[NJSecularist]

3. Hillary is joking, right?

She was the only candidate on that ballot. She can't be serious about her request.

[kdmorris]

4. She should have fought for this before Michigan

if what she was doing was really pure. Michigan doesn't get to re-vote and she's supposed to have a lead in Florida, so she's OK with it now? WTF?? If Edwards was winning in the Florida polls, my guess is that she wouldn't say shit about wanting the delegates re-instated.

[jody]

5. Regardless of who says it, all state Dem parties should have voting rights in the natl. convention.

[davidinalameda]

7. it's the NATIONAL party that makes the rules for the primaries

and if the STATE parties don't like the rules, then they don't have to follow them

but if they don't follow them, the NATIONAL party doesn't have to seat the delegates

do you really want the individual state parties and their rules superseding the national party?

that will make the whole primary thing really fair

[jody]

12. I also know that the Dem presidential candidate will need the MI & FL parties support to win the

election.

For that reason, I hope the Dem Party finds a solution with MI and FL.

[joshcryer]

40. The delegates will be seated. There's no doubt about that.

Obama supporters don't want them seated, but they simply do not understand the political ramifications of that.

[cali]

80. of course, there's doubt about it. duh.

They may be seated, or they may not. they may get half or some other amount. they may get seated as uncommitted. YOU certainly don't know.

[havocmom]

24. THANK YOU. There are rules. Some states broke those rules

And they knew the price, but did it anyway. Now, HRC wants to change the rules since it would help her. If she really is just concerned about those states' delegates being heard, she would have howled for changing the rules re primary date violations BEFORE the counts.

[joshcryer]

38. I guess rules trump ethics.

[havocmom]

44. If she had fought for those delegates BEFORE she won, I would say ethical

After the votes counted, THEN she starts the drive to have the MI voters heard at convention? NOT about ethics at all and any insistence it is is just plain spin/rationalization.

We need better than spin mislabeled as 'ethics'. We have had 7 fucking years of that and it is time for it to stop.

[joshcryer]

45. You can't do it before you run, because that means you "agree" with a state primary breaking rules.

What you do, politically, is say "I don't agree with them breaking the rules, but I don't think it's fair that they're not represented either."

[havocmom]

47. ROFLMAO So, doing it AFTER the vote goes your way is ethical?

Doing it before would seem more like you were fighting for those voters and not for yourself.

The spinning could create some power which poor people could use to heat their homes. At least that would be helpful.

[joshcryer]

48. Yes, it's ethical, because it's unlikely any of the big candidates disagree with the rules.

There's a big difference between disgreeing with a rule and disgareeing with the consequences of breaking that rule.

[bellasgrams]

62. Votes have not been counted in FL, they haven't voted yet.

We don't know for sure who will win.

[robbedvoter]

72. Voters have to pay the price? Did they decide to change the date? WTF?

[davidinalameda]

76. they should have spoken up before the primary

if I was a Democrat in Michigan or Florida, I'd be demanding some changes

[joshcryer]

37. The voters can't decide what their state primary does! They should be punished?

That's not fucking democracy! WTF is wrong with you!

[Adelante]

6. Ezra Klein

This is the sort of decision that has the potential to tear the party apart. In an attempt to retain some control over the process and keep the various states from accelerating their primaries into last Summer, the Democratic National Committee warned Michigan and Florida that if they insisted on advancing their primary debates, their delegates wouldn't be seated and the campaigns would be asked not to participate in their primaries. This was agreed to by all parties (save, of course, the states themselves).

With no one campaigning, Clinton, of course, won Michigan -- she was the only Democrat to be on the ballot, as I understand it, which is testament to the other campaign's beliefs that the contest wouldn't count -- and will likely win Florida. And because the race for delegates is likely to be close, she wants those wins to matter. So she's fighting the DNC's decision, and asking her delegates -- those she's already won, and those she will win -- to overturn it at the convention. She's doing so right before Florida, to intensify her good press in the state, where Obama is also on the ballot. And since this is a complicated, internal-party matter that sounds weird to those not versed in it (of course Michigan and Florida should count!), she's adding a public challenge that, if the other Democrats deny, will make them seem anti-Michigan and Florida.

But if this pushes her over the edge, the Obama camp, and their supporters, really will feel that she stole her victory. They didn't contest those states because they weren't going to count, not because they were so committed to the DNC's procedural arguments that they were willing to sacrifice dozens of delegates to support it. It's as hard as hardball gets, and the end could be unimaginably acrimonious. Imagine if African-American voters feel the rules were changed to prevent Obama's victory, if young voters feel the delegate counts were shifted to block their candidate.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=01&year=2008&base_name=clinton_tries_to_reinstate_mic

[bellasgrams]

63. I just don't understand why anyone could be upset because

peoples votes will count. Black, white, or purple, young or old. People's votes should count. This is America

[Adelante]

78. Of course people's votes should count and nobody's stopping people from voting

But people should make sure their state party leaders don't approve a primary schedule only to turn around and break the rules they approved. What would it be like if every state decided to break the party schedule and schedule themselves? How could candidates possibly manage their campaigns? The candidates this year agreed with the DNC. Now they get to change the plan they approved? Now in the middle of a primary season? No, they don't. They need to stand by the national party. The state parties are in the wrong here. Voters in those states have only their state parties to blame for the situation they find themselves in. Do I think delegates will ultimately be negotiated and seated at the convention? I do think it's most likely. But while the ban is in effect, no candidate should be using it to pander for votes and delegates. Let the people vote. Let the delegates issues be settled by the parties involved, not by any one candidate's interference and vote pandering. Hillary Clinton AGREED - she wants to go back on her own agreement, just as the Florida party went back on its own agreement.

[sidwill]

8. Amazing

This is fucking revolting, it shames all Democrats to have hillary try to pull this bullshit move.

I'm fuckin embarrased.

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. Strangely enough, I'm not embarrassed to see a woman with nuts

Maybe that's just me :P

[Lucinda]

10. GOOD.

It would be stupid not to seat the delegates.

Everyone is on the Florida ballot, so the delegates call fall as they may.

John Conyers made a huge effort to get people who weren't voting for Hillary to vote UNCOMMITTED in Michigan. It worked. MI had 156 delegates. Hillary got 55% of the vote, Uncommitted got 40%. The percentages of delegates would be close and ALL the Uncommitted delegates can vote for Edwards or Obama.

It's not perfect. But it's better than pissing off two huge states before the GE.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. She's just the kind of fighter we need to beat the RW fuckers

The other campaigns, if they understood politics well enough, should have made damn sure their candidates were on the ballot, just in case, and at the very least. Hillary just went up a few notches in my estimation with this. If she's this hardball now, she's ready for the big leagues that will no doubt follow the nomination.

[Seen the light]

16. I know right? Fuck the rules!

Viva anarchy!

:eyes:

[Cronus Protagonist]

21. I see you've seen the light, after all :P

n/t

[havocmom]

25. always worked for Rove

;)

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. And it will work for us too

It's about time we used their play list against them.

[havocmom]

39. Against 'them'?

Trying to do an end run about DEM PARTY RULES after the whistle? How is that 'against them'? It is a play against other DEMS and the rules the party laid out.

Would HRC be as caviler about other rules if she should be elected president? Like RULES OF LAW? We do not need to take all the plays out of Rove's book. But is seems some HRC supporters, and possibly the candidate herself, lean in that lawless direction.

[Cronus Protagonist]

55. It's just politics, ma'am

n/t

[havocmom]

70. is that a Rove quote?

"just politics" is OK if someone we like does it?

How about CHANGE? I hear a lot about it but what I see mostly is "just politics"

We need to do better than that.

Change is a process, not a hollow buzz word means to an end

[Cronus Protagonist]

75. We'll never win bringing a stick to a gun fight

I thought that was self evident.

[havocmom]

84. Use the big weapons in NOVEMBER against the GOP

SO, doin Rovesque stuff against other DEMs is OK with you? Anything for the win? Yeah, we need ANTHER four years of people with that attitude... NOT

[goldcanyonaz]

17. Great post! I feel the exact same way.

She'll engage in hand to hand combat if she has to, and you know what? We have to. The other side is NOT normal.

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. Yup, it's going to get bloody, nasty and underhanded REAL fast

I expect the swiftboating to begin within two hours of the nomination. John's showing well, and I like his combative style which will be needed, but Hillary's got the big dawg, she's already in attack mode, and she's in the battle. so that's a relief to know that hey, we just might be able to take a victory this time around despite all the GOP ditry tricks which are certainly going to be nasty and underhanded all the way to the bitter end. It will take much more than a black baby reference to scuttle McCain this time around.

[elixir2]

26. Your right on the money. Not only is it the right thing to do but HRC has shown she's tough!!

[goldcanyonaz]

31. Yes, ovaries of steel!

:woohoo:

[ShortnFiery]

74. I'm ashamed that the first "viable" woman to run for President is so damn *morally bankrupt.*

Great - a psychopathic tag team (it's all about The Clintons and their DLC - annihilate anyone in their way) in OUR White House. :eyes:

[elixir2]

35. ****disgusting*** to you, determined to me. She has what it takes to win w/out breaking the rules.

[Kucinich4America]

54. She DID break the goddamned rules

Or rather her DLC flunkies in Michigan and Florida did.

[sonroadera]

29. Yes, we need a candidate who will do anything to anyone, no matter how unethical

to get the Democratic nomination.
:sarcasm:

[Cronus Protagonist]

56. Extrapolate much?

:P

[Blarch]

13. What a disgusting person she is.

A complete disgrace to the party.

Shame shame.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

33. Counting votes IS disgusting.

[havocmom]

43. Changing the rules after the play is sorta disgusting

The time to fight for those MI votes to be counted at convention was BEFORE the rule breaking primary.

[joshcryer]

49. The rules aren't being challenged, the consequences are, there's a difference.

[havocmom]

66. Disregarding the rules to change the consequences

Much like how bush administration works. Also similar: spinning the thing to make it sound like it's good and black is white.

[joshcryer]

So you think it's fair for those voters to not count. OK.

I don't think that's fair.

[havocmom]

73. NOWHERE did I say that. I said the time to fight the refusal to seat was BEFORE MI voted

You don't change the rules after the outcome and then act like it isn't self serving crap without looking damned foolish or corrupt.

Excuses and spin. We have had enough of that crap used to hide self serving agendas and actions. bushco excels and imitating the tactic is lame and not a good plan

[sonroadera]

18. What a disgusting candidate she has turned out to be

Karl Rove must be so proud.

[rndmprsn]

19. check it...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&ned=&q=rove+clinton&sa=N&tab=nw

Political Radar: Rove on Clinton: She 'Barely Beat Nobody Else'
To wit, and I quote Rove in the aforementioned article; "Rove on Clinton: She 'Barely Beat Nobody Else'". She barely beat nobody else? What does that mean? ...

blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/rove-on-clinton.html - 207k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
The Swamp: Rove: Clinton 'fatally flawed...' Gallup: Not really
All the attention given to the lie Rove told about Clinton just proves it - call the man a liar and move on, don't repeat what he said over and over. ...

www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/08/post_6.html - 85k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
Intrepid Liberal Journal: The Karl Rove/Clinton Gambit
Naturally, this leads to speculation that Rove wants Senator Clinton to prevail in next year's primaries because he perceives her as the Democrats weakest ...

intrepidliberaljournal.blogspot.com/2007/08/karl-roveclinton-gambit.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
Karl Rove Clinton
From Karl Rove's op-ed today in the Wall Street Journal:. Mrs. Clinton won a narrow victory in New Hampshire for four reasons. First, her campaign made a ...

www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/karl-rove-clinton - 39k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
ROVE: Clinton/Obama can be beat! - The Liberty Lounge Political Forums
Rove previews strategies against Clinton, Obama By Sam Youngman Posted: 01/16/08 02:55 PM Karl Rove told a group of state Republican officials Wednesday.

www.libertylounge.net/forums/25749-rove-clinton-obama-can-beat.html - 139k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
Fresh Intelligence : Radar Online : Politics Age Rove, Clinton ...
Maxim examines how politics have aged Karl Rove, Bill Clinton, and Viktor Yushchenko.

Presidential Advisor Karl Rove says America and President Bush aren't getting enough credit for the good they do in the world. Bill Clinton says America has ...

www.krcc.org/krccnews/2007/07/rove_clinton_in_aspen_competin.php - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
WashPo on Rove, Clinton | shadoweyes
Just days after the November 2004 election, Bill Clinton pulled Rove aside at the dedication of the William J. Clinton Presidential Library in Arkansas. ...

www.shadoweyes.com/content/washpo-rove-clinton - 12k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
The Left Coaster: New Iowa Dem Poll; Rove/Clinton Dance
New Iowa Dem Poll; Rove/Clinton Dance. by Jeff Dinelli. It's still waaaay early, but the latest poll coming out of Iowa cannot make the Edwards camp very ...

www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/010864.php - 10k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter
Rove vs. Clinton - The Caucus - Politics - New York Times Blog
Karl Rove or Hillary Clinton, oh please, what insignificant squabbling. Mark my words, the signature issue of 2008 will be the humongous & dire financial ...

thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/rove-vs-clinton/ - 245k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this - Filter

[sonroadera]

27. Add this to the list

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/14/AR2007081401722.html

[joshcryer]

41. WTF, it's disgusting to want people to be represented?

[robbedvoter]

69. Democracy - an aquired taste around here

[robbedvoter]

71. yeah, voting rights and democracy are for the birds! How dare she want votes to matter?

[Arkana]

22. Disgusting.

Don't like the rules? Get them changed.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

34. Disgusting, counting those people's votes. ICK

[AGirl]

30. Florida should count, not Michigan.

[madrchsod]

42. break the deal-spin the wheel

[robbedvoter]

51. Why is the right to vote so distasteful to so many of you?

So caught up in the primary food fight you forgot all about democracy. :eyes:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kucinich4America]

53. How many threads do we need about Hillary's self serving attempt to avoid the rules?

Does anybody read the thread titles before they post this shit?

[joshcryer]

65. Reasoned opinions get lost in the cruft. People just post "disgusting" over and over.

And no intelligent discourse takes place.

[Bonobo]

57. I am Diogenes. Show me a single honest Hillary supporter. Admit this is disgusting.

[Politicub]

59. Good for her

She's thinking ahead to the general election, when stupid party deals don't mean squat to the general electorate. Even if Obama or John wins, this won't be something that can be held against them by the citizens of MI and FL in the general.

And cry me a river about Obama - he's the first person to break the agreement about no ads directed at Florida.

I'm glad that Hillary is doing this. Ever since Obama invited the ex-gay hangers on to his campaign, I could care less about his and his supporters' tender sensibilities.

[robbedvoter]

67. I am glad voting rights matter to one candidate - in November they might not

do a "Kerry" if they steal it.

[ShortnFiery]

68. Winning is everything to The Clintons and The Entire Party (and Nation) will suffer because of it.

:thumbsdown:

[DEMocracity]

77. it looks like

she sucker-punched Obama and Edwards... uncool.

[Vinca]

79. This is one of the slimiest political moves I've ever seen

and apparently planned well in advance since she left her name on the ballots. Michigan and Florida shouldn't have been excluded, for starters, but since that was the party ruling Hillary should not try to retroactively claim a primary win and grab all the delegates. Has Bill purchased Diebold for her yet?

[workinclasszero]

81. Sickening

And typical of the Clinton machine. Is there no trick so low they won't pull to get elected?

[george_maniakes]

83. its so obviously self-serving, how can clinton expect people...

to see it otherwise?

[sonroadera]

82. She would have done this if she got 35% of the vote in MI, and was polling at 35% in FL, right?

Yeah right. This has NOTHING to do with counting the votes, and EVERYTHING to do with winning. She could have said all this weeks ago, but didn't because she wasn't sure it would help her win.

I know the Hilbots think it is great that she will do anything to win no matter how unethical. I think it is pathetic.