I am a late-night Diogenes, looking for an honest man or woman. Anyone really want to talk?

[Bonobo]

I was wondering if there was anyone among the Hillary supporters that felt they would like to engage in an open-minded discussion.

I'm serious and I would appreciate only serious people post to this (although I am not exactly optimistic that it will happen).

[Evergreen Emerald]

1. what do you want to talk about?

[Bonobo]

3. Lots of things. I am open-minded. A dialog that would close some of the

"cognitive" gaps. I think people are working on intuition and instinctive feelings and then interpreting rather inflexibly through the prism of thos feelings.

Maybe we should talk about something that is tough for me to talk about first?

If I told you why I don't like Hillary and let you try to talk me out of it, would you do the same for Obama? I promise to really try.

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. It does not sound like you are open minded at all. It sounds as if you started out

attacking Clinton supporters as if you won't find an "open minded supporter." If you are willing not insult, I may listen.

[Bonobo]

7. I swear. Do you have a good idea for a starting point into a dialogue?

[PondoNavyNuke]

14. You don't like Hillary?

Most Clinton supporters like Obama. We just think Hillary is the better "man"

What is up with all the hate?

[Bonobo]

22. A good and fair and important question. It will be hard for me.

But I will try.

I think that I view her as someone who has worked hard to portray herself as more centrist than she probably is. In a way, that is a good thing, because if she is elected, I think she will not be as right wing as she is trying to appear. I recognize that some of this is to shake off the "Hillary-Hippie" label that the Repukes tried to slap on her, but here is what I really don't like: That she seems to me to be willing to make votes for political points, political expediency.

That, combined with the fact that I rarely feel her sincerity, makes me not like her on a personal level, I guess. Many people say triangulating. I guess that's it.

On a non-personal level, I do not want to have the exact same sides lining up against each other as they did in the Clinton years. I feel that she will be atttacked from the beginning and there will be no chance of anything being done.

I guess that is Obama's appeal. An appeal to have the kind of hope that we had, ironically, during the Clinton years. That if we can stop bickering about stupid shit, we could all agree that Health Care is an issue.

Can I ask a question now?

[mtnsnake]

2. What a piece of shit post

making it sound like finding an open-minded Hillary supporter is like finding a needle in a haystack.

How fucking lame.

[Bonobo]

4. Fine. Stay away then. I am not interested in talking to you on this thread. I will not respond.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. You Just Got Sonned

~

[Bonobo]

9. I have no idea what that means. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. I'm Not Surprised

~

[Bonobo]

13. Okay, now it sounds like you're just here to insult me, so I will have to say goodbye.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Sonned Just Mean Bested

That's hardly the worst insult in the world...And for this board it's the rhetorical equivalent of a love tap...

[Bonobo]

24. I just never heard the word. I guess I'm old as shit or something.

[tekisui]

6. Are you one of the open-minded Hillary supporters?

:rofl:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Have A Question

Why do the supporters of the candidate who wants to bring us all together act in a most divisive fashion toward other Democrats while restraining their ire toward Republicans?

Seems like what educated folks call a paradox...

[Bonobo]

12. I will try to answer.

But it is a little bit of a loaded question.

Why?

1.First of all, it is premised on the idea that the supporters are acting divisively which implies we act monolithically. We do not.
2. Even if we sound divisive, it is because the politcal culture here in DU has become toxix, that's all. True on both sides equally.
3. even if all the supporters were divisive, it would not be a reflection of Obama. Just the supporters.
4. I, at least, have never restrained my ire towards republicans. I hate their guts for being republicans. Having said that, there are democrats here who were once republicans but saw that their own party cared for them not one bit -like blue collar republicans who realize they've been had.

Can we keep talking nicely?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I'm Really, Really Tired But I Will Try To Be Coherent

It seems if you are supporting the candidate who purports to be different and better than us than you have an affirmative obligation to act in that matter...

[Bonobo]

17. I get you now. Okay, let me try to field that.

First of all, I don't think Obama is trying to say he is better than anyone.

If he is trying to rise to a higher level and trying to be better, than he is just like you or me when we try to act according to higher ideals.

I am sometimes good, sometimes bad here on DU. Right now, I am trying to reach YOU, just you, DemocratSinceBirth. I am, for this brief moment in time, trying to acknowledge that I have an obligation to act better. So I am sorry for being a jerk sometimes.

Did that answer go any way to addressingg your last post? And if so, can you ask another question or I will?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Please Ask Me The Question Before I Retire , For The Evening, Not For Good

I support Hillary Clinton because I think she is smart, tough, and experienced and I fondly rememember the Clinton years...I admit some of that fondness probably has little to do with who was in office in the nineties...

But I see Hillary and Bill without illusions... They are politicians, albeit adroit ones, nothing more and nothing less...

[Bonobo]

23. OK, here.

Yes, Obama talks about unity.

But do you really think that the only thing that could possibly mean is that he is saying that he will "abandon us to the Republicans"?

Is it impossible for you to have hope that we can, as a country, get over -not everything- but at least some of the stupid shit that we disagree about?

EXAMPLE: Dems and Repubs should not ALL be on opposite sides about the issue of Overseas Outsourcing, right? That's one example. How about Health Care? Don't all working Americans agree on that? I think there is room for agreement on many issues. Let's get the low lying fruit!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. We Can Continue This Tomorrow

I think gloabalization is a fact of life and it is incumbent upon us as a compassionate society to help and retrain folks who are disliocated by it but I believe in comparative advantage and many of those jobs that are going overseas are never coming back...

As for health care I believe it's a human right along with the other necessities of life... How we get to that point I don't know... But no, Republicans have very different ideas about health care...They believe you should provide it for yourself or get it from your employer... They aren't going to give up the health insurance plan they have now so some theoretical other person can get one...

[Bonobo]

28. Happily. Good night and thank you. (more)

But when you say "Republicans think", I think the important issue is THERE!

If we want to split the Republican party, we need to make the white southern, blue collar republicans, the east-coast fiscal conservative republicans, and others to see the fact that they have schosen the wrong party to represent their interests.

Clinton showed that fiscal responsibility is NOT the sole domain of the Republicans. It has nothing to do with Dem/Repub

Same for health care. A blue collar repub who loves Jesus and America should NOT be voting to repeal the death tax or make the rich tax cuts permananet. They should be in our party on THAT issue. And that should translate into us getting what we want. Working together as far as our interests were alligned and ONLY that far.

Talk to you later.

[tekisui]

16. I want for us to come together.

I support Obama, and Edwards and Clinton. I find the divisiveness prevalent from both Clinton's and Obama's supporters. I would say Clinton supporters more so, but not by much.

I hold nothing but distaste and dislike toward the pukes. I have nothing good to say about them.

Overall, I will be pleased when we have a Nominee that we can ALL get behind and direst the ire in one direction.

[Bonobo]

18. I know you try, Tekisui. Right now, on this thread, there are 3 people trying to talk.

That is something.

[MoonRiver]

20. I think Hillary is the better candidate, will make a better president,

and is obviously being vilified by the right wing media. I don't know what the primary results will be, although I believe that Hillary still has the advantage, but Obama will be crucified by the Republics if he gets the nomination. We'll have 4 to 8 years more of a Republican in the White House if Obama is our nominee. I DO NOT WANT THAT. OTOH, I believe Hillary can beat both Romney and McCain.

That's my position, which you obviously disagree with. Such is life.

[Bonobo]

25. Sounds good and sounds like yes, we do disagree.

But perhaps you and I have unconsidered, unspoken preconceived notions that are keeping us from seeing the other side. I would like to get rid of those, if such a thing is possible through dialog.

[MoonRiver]

27. I can tell you that I will vote for Obama if he gets the nom.

I just can't get very optimistic about him taking the White House. IF he were to pull that one off however, I admit it would be exhilarating to have the first AA president and first AA first family.

I would also be thrilled to be able to say: Presidents Clinton.

But these are trivial personal things.

Both would ultimately make fine presidents. But I think Hillary has the experience and toughness to hit the ground running, and therefore would be more immediately effective. * has destroyed this country in so many ways. We need a president with the absolutely greatest ability and expertise, not "rock star" appeal. I believe that person is Hillary Clinton.

I do appreciate your asking for this civil discourse. It's been horrific dealing with all the acrimony between DU camps Obama and Clinton.

[Bonobo]

29. Yes, it has been horrific.

And seriously, as my grandmother said when I would say I hated something (like food), she would make us say "I have not yet learned to like it".

In my case, I have not yet learned to like, Hillary. But she is super smart. Tough? Absolutely. Change? Yes, incremental.

For me, what takes me over the top with Obama is that I want to be able to send a message of change to the world. A real repudiation of what we have been for -well, forever. And for me, Obama sends a more clear message that we are members of the world community.

Barack Hussein Obama. I like it. I really, really like it. Can I say that? Do you know what I mean? Proud. He is a super, super intelligent guy but his eloquence is no trick. It comes from his heart. That's why he is eloquent. Because he means it. He really means that unity, as a country, is an important thing right now. THE MOST important thing.

It doesn't matter if you are Republican or Democrat when the world is being destroyed. To solve the problems we face, we will need every bloody person we've got in this country.

Nice talking to you this way as well, MyPetRock.

[MoonRiver]

30. I respect your opinions, and agree with many of them.

The * decimated world will be thrilled if we have either President Clinton or President Obama. For the reasons I have previously described I prefer President Clinton. But getting the White House back is of the utmost importance. I think we can do it, and when that day comes, it will be a beautiful thing. I hope we all will be celebrating, whichever "camp" we come from.

:hug: