realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:06 PM
Original message |
"Liking" a Presidential candidate |
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Let's face it, you are never going to have a personal relationship with the next President of the United States. You may get to shake his or her hand, pose for a photo, get to say a word or two, but it will be rare for most Americans to actually share their lives with the next President.
So get over the "likeability" thing. This country has dire problems, not fixed by someone you like or don't like but someone who has the knowledge and experience of working with others in the Congress, world and state governments; knowing how to work the system to get what we need done.
If you were hiring the best person for a job, you'd hire the most experienced for the money, not the one you like the best. You wouldn't hire your best friend if he or she didn't have what it takes.
I may not "like" the next President, but I will vote for the most experienced one.
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Avalux
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message |
realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
7. .........little training necessary.... |
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Has met all the world leaders already and visited 80 countries. Knows how the White House works. Knows how the Congress works. Knows how state government works. Has led legislation across party lines and gotten legislation passed in the Congress Has worked with NGO's and the U.N. on world projects Has worked in business Has established reforms in healthcare and children's issues Has worked across the aisle with Republicans and was re-elected to the Senate with a large numbers Doesn't need lots of supervision or other people making decisions Has a huge rolodex, no introductions needed
gee...I guess this looks a lot like Hillary's experience.
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libbygurl
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
18. Pretty much sums it up for me. Thanks! nt |
ayeshahaqqiqa
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
20. You've got to go beyond simply knowing , though |
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Knowing how Congress works doesn't necessarily mean that the candidate can get Congress to pass his/her agenda. Even if we have a Democratic majority in both houses, our party is notorious for having mavericks and independents who don't automatically endorse every proposal a Democratic president puts out there. What loyalists can the candidate count on in Congress to help pass the agenda? Who can be counted on to make tough decisions and stick to them, even though it may cost them politically? We have tough times ahead. We have a horrible mess to clean up. Actions to be taken won't always be popular, but they may well be necessary to ensure our survival. The next President will require the full backing of Congress.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
29. "full backing of the Congress"... |
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No President has had the "full backing of the Congress" in terms of all bills. I can say that the full Congress may have respect for the office of the President. I can say that a large majority may have the respect for the person in that office.
I do respect a President who can improve the conditions in this country with the help of those who want to improve it also, albeit Republicans or Democrats.
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ayeshahaqqiqa
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
39. but plenty of Presidents have wasted their time in office |
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fighting Congress. We don't have time to waste. Do you have concrete evidence to suggest that either Clinton or Obama has made the connections in Congress that will make it cooperative with the new Chief Executive?
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
40. She's put forward legislation with Republicans on body armor |
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and same health benefits for National Guard as the Army gets. I don't have her whole record in front of me, but there have been articles written about her and McCain working together on the environment etc.
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ayeshahaqqiqa
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
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but what about working with Democrats in Congress? What is her relationship with Reid? Is she considered a "leader" in the Senate or merely a "team player"? How many Democratic Senators have signed onto bills she has sponsored? What is her relationship with the Blue Dog Democrats, which include both my senators, Mark Pryor and Blanche Lincoln?
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MoonRiver
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message |
2. Agreed. That's why I support Hillary Clinton. |
libbygurl
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:09 PM
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3. Isn't 'likeability' what got us someone like W in the White House? (And to this day,... |
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Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 12:32 PM by libbygurl
...I still can't understand what was to like about that arrogant, incurious, illiterate, unaccomplished, incompetent man.)
Edited for grammar.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
9. people vote with their guts, not their brains.... |
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We just had dinner with a couple last night who are both for Barack because they don't "like" Hillary. Instead of delving into why... I know why...it was 8 years of constant media and Republican lies, investigations, hearings, etc. that made people's stomach churn. If you separate all that from Hillary...who had little to do with any of it, save some unfamiliarity with how some of the processes in the White House worked, you see a woman who has devoted herself mostly to public service all these years and more than competently.
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libbygurl
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
17. Exactly. Most people can't be bothered to really look at Hillary's true accomplishments... |
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...beyond the distractions so effectively put up by the sensationalist mainstream media and rabid Hillary haters.
As for the 'likeability' issue, I've also heard many anecdotes of non-Hillary supporters who change their view of her when they actually meet her in person. She doesn't come across as warm and fuzzy as Bill did/does, but by golly, I want someone with experience, knowledge of the international situation, deep knowledge of what she's talking about, etc. in the White House this time around. In fact, the things that Paul Krugman and the NY Times editorial board have written express a lot of what I think about Hillary's competence and readiness for the presidency.
(Heh, literacy and articulateness in English are big pluses, too!)
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RichGirl
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message |
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Hillary Clinton. And her husband.
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libbygurl
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
saltpoint
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message |
5. I don't expect JFK "liked" LBJ all that much but there was an election to win |
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and a foul-souled Dick Nixon to defeat.
So they threw in together and got it done.
Most of us are willing to be hard-bitten realists when the common enemy is shredding the Constitution to bits before our very eyes.
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ristruck
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message |
6. Liking is more than skin deep |
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Part of hiring the right person for a leadership job is whether or not people will follow them. We have all seen people promoted simply because they had years of service and yet they were not good leaders. Polarizing figures usually do not get the support they need.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
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I can think of some CEO's that we would rather not ever see again, but they got the job done.
Re: your graphic of DK... I think DK is so smart and I agree with most of his policy stands...one of his problems was he's short and it's a horrible reflection on how we vote just on appearances alone.
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Big Blue Marble
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:16 PM
Response to Original message |
8. I actually think people want to have an emotional connection with their leader. |
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I think it is a primal tribal human need. It is important to believe in both the competence and trustworthiness. One of the ways they gauge competence is by experience. Another is judgment.
One of the ways they determine trustworthiness is likability. Is this person like me? Do I relate to him/her on a personal level.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
10. well, I think you are right about that feeling...but |
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it would be a good reality check for someone to ask themselves the harder questions like can this person really do the job without a lot of help or influence? How long will it take for this candidate to get up to speed with everything. Do we have time for on the job training this time around? Do we have an idea of who that person will put in his or her Cabinet? Do we really know who will be advising that person? Do we care if that person puts Republicans in that Cabinet?
I am never going to have a personal relationship with this candidate. Do I care more about how I like this person or whether my country is going to go into a deep and long lasting recession and my children and grandchildren will live with our debt and position in the world as we are now?
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Big Blue Marble
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
22. What you're missing in your analysis |
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Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 12:35 PM by Big Blue Marble
is that unconsciously, we do have a personal relation with our leaders. That is why so much emotionality plays such an important part in politics, albeit around here.
We give rational justifications for our decisions and flatter ourselves with our reasoning ability. But much of what we decide is based on unconscious feelings rather than conscious thought.
That is why the likability thing matters so much: As in I want to drive my opponent's negatives up.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
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I think I said that in my prior post.
I like Obama's speeches. I don't trust him. He's lied in the campaign. I don't want another liar in the White House. I don't know who he'd have advise him. He's mentioned putting the Gropinator in his Cabinet. He's been clueless about who Arnold really is and what's he done to CA. He was clueless about what Reagan really did to this country. He needs to read history before making comparisons of himself to JFK, MLK and Lincoln. Huge generalities just because he's a new and fresh voice and face.
Anyone with a good speechwriter can give a good speech...I have heard some moving sermons but I don't want to elect a President on that basis.
We are so enamored of the "newest" package in this country, even though it may contain unGodly things inside. Look past the pretty face, the pretty speeches to who and what this person really is all about.
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Jade Fox
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Mon Jan-28-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
59. We have a personal relationship with... |
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what we project on to our leaders (I thought you took some psychology classes). It has nothing to do with what that leader is actually like, since we don't know them.
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maddiejoan
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
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Hillary is a lot more like me than Obama though...and I trust her more as well.
:shrug:
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Big Blue Marble
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
26. That is what I am saying. |
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We vote for the person whom we more familiar with. The root of familiar is the same as family, unconsciously we feel that person is from our tribe and therefore trustworthy.
I really think the trust thing is the biggest decider for most of us either unconsciously or consciously. That is why negative advertising works.
It destroys that link between the candidate and the voter at the unconscious level.
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Jade Fox
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
28. But it's a fantasy..... |
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based on projection. It's not really possible to like someone you don't know.
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Big Blue Marble
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
32. Do you think negative attack adds are fantasies as well? |
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Campaign consultants do not think it is a fantasy. They know that if you make the opponent less likable their candidate is more likely to win.
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Jade Fox
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
37. That's a different topic..... |
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but let me just say that campaign consultants are who has turned political campaigns into the poll-obsessed sound-bite bullshit they are today, along with the idiot pundits. The aim is to win over the stupid voter, and yes it seems to work.
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Big Blue Marble
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #37 |
43. It is the same topic. |
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The consultants understand that the most important asset a candidate has is his or her likability. The reason these voters look stupid to you or I is because they voted irrationally, i.e. they voted emotionally. We all do it. It is just that we have different emotional responses to different candidates.
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Jade Fox
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
Big Blue Marble
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
51. If you do not think so |
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Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 01:27 PM by Big Blue Marble
you might want to consider taking a course in psychology or reading a few books on modern campaigning theory.
Being in denial about the importance of our emotions on our decision making actually makes us more susceptible to mass marketing and propaganda.
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Jade Fox
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Mon Jan-28-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #51 |
60. You might want to consider..... |
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not being so condescending.
As for denial, campaign consultants these days show a remarkable amount of denial about how important actual issues are to voters. Most of these consultants came from advertising, and that is their mindset.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #37 |
47. Yes, some people don't like conflict or arguments so.... |
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instead of listening to what exactly is being said, they just hear the constant media belittling and sweeping lies about what was said. Much of the talking media's gotten very lazy and unscrupulous. People have to work harder at knowing exactly what was said and meant by any of the candidates.
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Big Blue Marble
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
52. Ultimately it is our job to know |
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"what was said and meant by any of the candidates" And it is silly to blame the mass media when we have the internet to help us with the research.
The media is not our friend. That is why we must do this on our own.
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Jade Fox
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Mon Jan-28-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #52 |
58. I thought you said we all vote emotionally...... |
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so why bother to figure out "what was said and meant by any of the candidates"? The media is not our friend, but don't blame them? Make up your mind.
Outside of bible-thumping country many question the media, use the internet to check information, and don't respond to emotionally manipulate campaign tactics, and have been doing so for a long time.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
41. Driving up someone's negatives is politics |
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Unfortunately the media hasn't really asked the tough questions of Obama...his color and popularity have kept hands off who he really is and is all about.
I don't think he's up to the job and I don't know who he would rely on. Maybe the media ought to really investigate him or even talk about the points he wrote about himself in his books.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
38. happens every day though.... |
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We are so focused on appearances...a smile, a laugh, a gladhander, a pretty face, soothing words. They don't really tell you much about a person's character, strengths, weaknesses, experience, focus.
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calico1
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message |
11. I guess a lot depends on what a person's |
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priorities are. I guess some people feel the need to feel like the President is their friend or family member. I have never felt that way and honestly can't envision ever having that feeling.
I supported Gore, Kerry(to a lesser extent) and now Hillary because I think they are all experienced, tough and ready to take the job on day one. I have felt no desire to get all weepy at any of their speeches. Nor have I ever fantasized about having them over to a barbecue or anything of the sort. And frankly I have found none of the 3 to be warm and cuddly. But why would I need to feel that way? I just want someone in there that will be able to handle the job well. My life goes on after the election.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
BlackVelvet04
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message |
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I support John Edwards because I like his message and I've studied the issues.
If at some point I feel that I should switch my vote it will be to Hillary Clinton because of her experience.
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libbygurl
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
21. It's HRC, then JE for me. Nice to hear this! nt |
BlackVelvet04
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
45. I just heard Hillary Clinton |
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speaking in Tennessee and her message sounded more like John Edward's message than her typical speeches. I think JE is driving and forming the terms of the debates and I think he needs to continue to do so.
The thing I like about Hillary the most is she knows the score. Hillary is a realist, she knows the world players, she knows what she's up against, and let's face it she was the FIRST to try and do something about healthcare. I remember her fight against the republicans back in the 90's and she was before her time.
As for Obama - I don't think he's a bad person. He is probably sincere in what he's saying, BUT I think he's naive.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
36. I don't know why Edwards isn't getting more votes.... |
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Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 01:12 PM by realFedUp
maybe someone can explain that to me.
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BlackVelvet04
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
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ISN'T getting more votes?
I think there are lots of factors. Lack of media coverage, less money than the other two candidates, the "historical" factor of voting for the first black or woman president, being perceived as a loser because of his run with Kerry, etc. etc. It would be hard to pin it down to any one thing.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
44. yes, thanks...I edited the subject line... |
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There must be something else...I have a friend who just doesn't trust him...like a car salesman. Unfair I know.
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BlackVelvet04
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
48. For some people he represents |
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the typical white male who has always run this country.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
56. well, his record isn't much different than any of the centrist Dems |
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He talks as a progressive but his record isn't much different.
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ayeshahaqqiqa
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:26 PM
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13. I don't care if I like a candidate or not. That's not what I look at |
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I look at their positions, and the feasibility of implementing them, as well as the relationship the candidate will have with Congress. I "liked" Jimmy Carter, but didn't vote for him for President (voted third party) because I thought he was naive in his attitude that, as an outsider who was hostile to Congress, he'd be able to come in as President and get his legislation passed. History proved me right on that point.
My support of a candidate never hinges on whether or not I like them--it hinges upon whether they have good plans and are capable of getting them implemented. The only quality that I consider that comes close to "likability" is character. If a candidate is known for lying, going back on his word, or ignoring a situation or group merely because they pose politically inconvenient problems, I don't vote for them. We are facing some very serious challenges, worse than anything we've seen before. We need someone with courage and a broad vision to see us through these times.
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Armstead
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message |
14. A long-winded thread I posted about this subject |
realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
24. You don't explain "Clintonism" |
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And I would say that Bill and Hillary are two different people. They may agree on some issues, and others not. I think it's fairer and more rational to speak of them as separate people as many wives and husbands do disagree.
I think Hillary is actually the more focused, steadfast, feet on the ground, harder worker than Bill. Of all the candidates, I believe her experience will move this country to a more stable position.
Edwards has made corporations and corporate control a large issue in this campaign, which plays well to progressives and netrooters, but the reality is that if he becomes president, he'll have little to do to rein them in. It takes Congress to pass new laws and frankly with the Congress we have now...few new laws regarding trade or business will be enacted. I don't understand why Edward's hasn't gotten a bigger bounce. His initial talking about two Americas didn't really resonate as the largest issue we should be focusing on, although the economy certain has been tanking for awhile and corporations have been scamming the system.
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Armstead
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Sun Jan-27-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
57. The President can and should push Congress to do those things |
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Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 05:16 PM by Armstead
When you look at the staggering and geometric concentration of wealth and power that has happened in almost every industry as a result of mergers and other consolidation, it cries out for both enforcement of existing anti-trust law and enactment of new regulations to stop this.
A president, as the leader of the party has the ability -- and should exercise it -- of pushing Congress to pass policies that do directly address such issues and problems.
Bill Clinton didn't. I haven't seen any indication Hillary will either, except to vaguely snip around the edges.
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pdxmom
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:37 PM
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23. I don't like or dislike any of the candidates. There is one that I probably would |
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feel more comfortable sitting at a table with, but that doesn't matter a whit to me. While I think experience is important, it isn't the most important thing either. Hell, we've had "experienced" leaders for the past 7 years and look where we are. I look at two things: the issues and how close they are to my own feelings and beliefs and credibility/trust in a person.
Unfortunately, we are fighting against what I think is a majority of people out there who don't educate themselves and do vote based on likeability.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
33. I agree that uneducated voters do vote from feelings... |
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unfortunately... I always have hope that the best will win, but as we've seen over the years, not always the case.
I wonder if Bush ever bought those guys who voted for him a beer or they've lost their house to unscrupulous lenders or lives in an illegal invasion and war instead?
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stillcool
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:39 PM
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25. Funny...I really 'liked' these people too... |
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"The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were." -- John Fitzgerald Kennedy
"The Republican nominee-to-be, of course, is also a young man. But his approach is as old as McKinley. His party is the party of the past. His speeches are generalities from Poor Richard's Almanac. Their platform, made up of left-over Democratic planks, has the courage of our old convictions. Their pledge is a pledge to the status quo--and today there can be no status quo." -- John Fitzgerald Kennedy, 1960
"Democracy is no easy form of government. Few nations have been able to sustain it. For it requires that we take the chances of freedom; that the liberating play of reason be brought to bear on events filled with passion; that dissent be allowed to make its appeal for acceptance; that men chance error in their search for the truth."-- Robert F. Kennedy
"What is objectionable, what is dangerous about extremists, is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents."-- Robert F. Kennedy
"Perhaps a new spirit is rising among us. If it is, let us trace its movements and pray that our own inner being may be sensitive to its guidance, for we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us." --- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
"The law may not be able to make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. "I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality .... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
“A politics that is not sensitive to the concerns and circumstances of people's lives, a politics that does not speak to and include people, is an intellectually arrogant politics that deserves to fail.” ---Paul Wellstone
“The future will not belong to those who sit on the sidelines. The future will not belong to the cynics. The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.”---Paul Wellstone
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
35. I liked those people also...and I like Hillary... |
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I'm making an argument for those just voting their guts and not their brains.
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stillcool
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #35 |
49. Yeah...and I'm arguing... |
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that I "like" people because of who they are, their ideas, and their ability to communicate those ideas to me. I do not like people when I do not trust what they have to say. I do not like people who attempt to gain popularity by ridiculing others. Never have. Nothing to do with my gut. Everything to do with my belief in basic human decency. There are some characteristics of human behavior I choose to admire, and those I choose to reject. Words matter. They last forever. Bommerang.
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swoop
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:42 PM
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27. You assume they are mutually exclusive. |
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Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 12:43 PM by swoop
I don't want someone who knows how to 'work the system'. I want someone who know how to work within a system. Those are two vastly different things--the diff. between Hillary and Obama.
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realFedUp
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Sun Jan-27-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #27 |
34. works the system and within the system.... |
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Frankly being a politician is a career. Knowing how the system works and the processes to getting work done are both important. It's not a pretty job for the fainthearted. Deals are done, agreements made between friends and enemies. Tit for tat. You wash my back, I'll wash yours. We shouldn't be naive about how tough that business is or the tolls it takes.
I want a reality based candidate. I want someone who's been through the grinder and come back twice as strong.
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libbygurl
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:20 PM
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50. Absolutely right. So many still live in a fantasy land as far as real politics are... |
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...concerned.
I recall the late Sen. Paul Simon saying, during his cut-short presidential bid in '88, that running for the presidency isn't the same as running for sainthood.
I find Hillary supporters to generally be more realistic and open-minded in their views.
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swoop
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:32 PM
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...take a little longer than 4 sentences to explain--and someone who has 'been through the grinder' frequently doesn't know how to climb out of it. She just drags everyone else in with her. I don't want a slick 'baby, I can work the system, work it!' con in the White House.
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Tierra_y_Libertad
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Sun Jan-27-08 01:51 PM
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55. I may or may not "like" them, but I sure as hell don't trust politicians. |
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Well, I do trust them to be politicians and behave as such. In much the same way I trust guys selling watches in alleys to try and sell me a watch and call it a Rolex.
“The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same.” Marie Beyle
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Fri May 10th 2024, 12:17 PM
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