An open message to those older than 45.

[Meldread]

Prospective: I'm a 25 year old white southern male supporting Obama.

I am addressing this to many people, some on this forum and some who are not. This is an open message to the following: Every person over the age of 45 who carries some responsibility for the current state of our nation. Every person over the age of 45 who believes that just because a person is young, that they are naive, ignorant if not out right stupid. Every person who believes that just because someone does not collect a social security check that their opinion matters less. If you read this and feel like it is directed at you - it probably is.

Let me start out by saying, I have a lot of respect for those who came before me, some of you, at least, others not so much. You did a lot of good things such as furthering the cause of civil rights. That is something to be proud of - that is an achievement that will not be forgotten. However, you also did some really shitty things, and over all I have trouble weighing the positives vs the negatives.

You've asked yourself: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4242161">Why do you think Obama is kicking ass with the 30 and under crowd? Is it because he's hip? Is it because he's a cool new fad? Is he just so groovy that we can't control ourselves?

I can't speak for others of my generation, so I'll speak for myself. When I first heard about Obama I had never seen or heard him speak when I first heard of him. It was around the time he was selected to give his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic Convention. Back then I was supporting Howard Dean, and I was a very early supporter. I did not know much about Howard when I first began to support him.

You see, back when I threw my support behind Howard the Iraq War hadn't long started. It was very in vogue to be a saber rattler. However, I knew Howard from his signing in Civil Unions in Vermont. Being gay, that was a big thing with me, so he naturally caught my attention first. When I learned that he opposed the war in Iraq like me - it was love.

It was the first primary I had been a part of in my entire life. It was a very hard and devastating primary - my first one and a horrible loss. I learned a lot, though. From the ashes of defeat, however, others like me came together - against your will - the establishments will - and made Howard Dean Chairman of the DNC. I could not think of a more deserving man who I would want representing me or our party, others - those of you who are DLC didn't agree, of course. You did not want my voice to count. You made that clear.

My political activism began rather early. I only have the vaguest of memories of Reagan. However, I do remember being in the 1st Grade and watching George Bush Senior being sworn in as President. Our teacher insisted that we watch on a small little black and white TV. I was too young to understand the implications of what was going on, but I knew it was important.

I remember being in the third grade and the first Gulf War. I had a poster given to me by one of the teachers - a poster of Iraq. I didn't really understand it all then, but I fundamentally trusted you. You were the adult. I trusted you to make the right decisions.

I remember being in the 4th Grade and watching Bill Clinton being sworn in as President for his first term. By that time, I understood what was going on. I felt a sense of pride almost, as much as any 4th Grader could really feel.

Over the years, I remember the fighting over health care. I didn't understand the particulars, but I understood the fighting. The name calling. The arguments. Everyone hated everyone else. There was not a time when there was not fighting. You were the adults and you were in charge - and all you did was fight with one another. Nothing mattered except being right, except proving a point.

When I was in 8th Grade Bill Clinton was sworn into a second term, and you kept on fighting. This time over a blowjob. Now, you might not know this but my generation didn't really care about that type of stuff. However, you were fascinated over cum-stained blue dresses, cigars, arguing, moral high grounds, and most importantly being right. Nothing else mattered to you.

Bill Clinton was impeached, and Al Gore began to run for President. Now, I didn't know Al real well back then, and I had just turned 18 - it was my first chance to vote. I am ashamed to say that I bought the media hype about Al. I believed he was boring, stiff, uninspiring - among other things. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/clinton200711">Things that Bill Clinton said about him. However, like many I was suffering from Clinton fatigue. I had spent most of my childhood listening to the fighting, and when it came time to cast my vote - to finally give you my voice - I gave my support to Ralph Nader. Ralph said that there was no difference between the two parties, and as far as I could tell - he was telling the truth. All you did was fight.

Ralph inspired me to embrace politics by saying, "Turn onto politics, before politics turns on you." He could not have spoken words that were truer.

In the year 2000 I remember the hanging chads and more fighting. I never expected Ralph to win, but that wasn't why I voted for him. I voted for him because I was voting against you. I hated what you had done, and though I lived in a state that was insignificant to the election, I wanted to add some small part of my voice to a protest. I went out and voted against you.

George W. Bush became President. I had vague memories of his father. I live in the south, as I said, and in a rather conservative part. By that time my personal political ideology was still taking shape as I investigated the issues facing our country, but I leaned further to the left than most of you did. I was mostly indifferent to Bush when he took office, because at the time I believed Nader - there would have been no difference no matter who won. I saw Bush as an idiot, a fool. However, that is where many of you placed your vote.

Then 9/11 happened. I was just a few miles south of Our Great President at the time, in Florida on vacation. I woke up around 8 AM or so that morning. We were preparing to go to Universal Studios. Then the planes hit the world trade center. I was already watching the morning news. I was shocked. I remember shouting at the TV as if I could tell the people down below that the buildings might collapse - they should run. I watched them fall. I watched them die.

I watched as for once there was no fighting. There was unity. Then I watched you exploit it. I watched you take a unified nation, rape her, pillage her, and destroy her. I watched you spit upon everything that was given to you, and that you were someday supposed to pass onto me. I watched, I waited, and I learned.

I was not a fool. I saw what Bush was doing when Iraq was first mentioned - I knew he was taking us into a bogus war. I had found my voice. I found these forums, and for once in my life I found people with liked minds. I wasn't alone, and together we were outraged.

Together we watched, we protested, we yelled and cursed the name of Bush. My voice joined yours in the fighting, but we were silenced. Our own party did not represent us. Our voices against the war were marginalized.

That is when I embraced Howard Dean. A man who, like me, saw the war for what it was - a man who had the guts to stand up and say something was wrong. A man that I respect highly. A man that you and your DLC hate. You hate him because he represents me, because I was part of the effort to put him there, but I once again rejected you. I helped make Howard Dean our DNC Chairman.

I learned a lot about myself and the Democratic Party in 2004. I learned what it was like to be slandered by the media. What it was like to have your own party work against you. What it was like to battle the establishment. What it was like having you as my enemy, but I learned. You taught me valuable lessons.

At that convention I fell in love with Al Gore. I almost forgave Bill Clinton - almost. I sat at home cheering Howard Dean as he gave his speech, as the rafters in the Convention Center shook with the passion from those there in attendance. I also met Barack Obama. Until that point he was just a funny name. I did not know much about him. I knew he opposed the war from the start - like Howard Dean. He was on my side. I realized that early on.

I heard him deliver a speech there at that convention... and it was then I knew. This man could be President of the United States. I was moved. He touched me. He spoke to me. He spoke about something different though. He spoke about unity.

Now, keep in mind - I had experienced unity only once and that was after 9/11. Up until that point in time, all I knew was fighting - you taught me that.

However, here was this man who was eloquently painting a different vision. He told me that things didn't have to be this way - that we could do better. He inspired me. He told me that I didn't have to fight with my enemies, and I didn't have to sacrifice my core values. He painted a picture of America in which everyone was welcome, including me, and my enemies - where fighting was not necessary. He painted a picture of a place where adults could actually act like adults, and solve problems like adults. It was a strange new idea.

He made it to the Senate, and eventually he entered into the Democratic Primary race for President.

Who should I support? I wish I could say I immediately went to Obama but I cannot. No, you had taught me to be cynical. He was a black man, you told me, and black people can't be President - you taught me this. I looked to John Edwards, the white man, and he spoke to me as well, in a different way. However, he didn't inspire me in the same way. He spoke of fighting, and while his causes were worthy... I remembered the fighting of the past. I looked to Obama, and he promised something different. I decided to roll the dice.

I rolled those dice, and unlike in 2004 I won Iowa. I was proud - I was almost afraid my support could jinx a candidate. I had tuned in and out of the race, keeping tabs on Obama and what happened, but not really throwing myself into it. I wanted to save my energy until closer to the primaries.

He won Iowa - and people like me turned out in record numbers. You were shocked and angry. You looked at me and those like me, your face turned red with anger, the nostrils of your huge nose flared, and you wagged your finger at me in condemnation. You wondered if I knew better, you questioned my judgment, you questioned my ability to make a rational choice. You insulted me, and when you realized that I was serious, you got dirty.

However, none of that answered your question. Why? Why have I turned against you? The answer is simple. Look around you. Look at all you've done. When I was growing up, I was taught that each generation should leave the world in a bit better shape than the last. You have ruined it. You have enabled the shredding of the Constitution I was supposed to inherit. You have enabled a war that should have never happened. You have destroyed an economy that should have been mine. You have ruined an environment that you should have protected.

Most importantly, however, you are out of touch. I'll give a special shout out to someone of your generation - John McCain. Here is a man who is 71 years of age. I have some measure of respect for his service in our military. I give him the payment he is due for the torture he suffered. Yet, he has enabled this war. He wishes to continue to fight this war no matter how long it takes, 100 years or more is fine with him. He is 71 years old. He will be dead in a decade or two of old age, maybe less if he actually wins the Presidency - the stress ages you fast. He will not pay a dime on Iraq. I will. He will not spill a drop of blood in Iraq. I know people who have. He, like you, sacrifices nothing, while people like me sacrifice everything.

You, like McCain, carry the responsibility for what has happened. You angrily go on and on about experience. I have experience. I grew up watching you. I have experienced ENOUGH of you. I will gain even more experience suffering through sorting out your mess, trying to rebuild and recapture what you have squandered, plundered and lost. You have failed. This is your legacy.

Experienced? Yes, you are experienced. Experienced at fucking things up. You have a lot of nerve to question me. To wonder why I feel the way I do. It only proves that you are out of touch. However, when you die - this will be the legacy you leave behind. The Bush Legacy will be linked to your generation.

At first I was shocked that you didn't understand. Then I was angry at your arrogance. Then I simply shook my head at your stupidity. There is no one with more of a stake in this election than people like me - my generation. We are inheriting your legacy of fuck-ups. While you are looking to return to the past, we are looking toward our futures.

Yes, I am supporting Obama. Do I want to toss the dice? Hell yes. It is not much of a gamble. I know what I have to lose and what I have to gain. It is an election of more of the same or change. I have elected change. I am embracing change, and yes that means the sun is setting on your era. The past is gone. I am stepping up to pick up the pieces of everything you've so carelessly shattered and crushed.

No, I may not have the "experience" you have, but there is something more important than experience. There is judgment. You see, in your quest to be experienced, you've neglected the most fundamental important part of being a good leader: judgment. All of the knowledge and experience in the world does you no good if you cannot solve a simple problem. Problems that other nations have already solved long ago. Problems that YOU should have solved long ago.

This message is not a slam on those who are old. Age isn't everything. It is a slam on those who are arrogant or who do not understand. It is a slam on all of those who look down their noses at my generation, who are angry that we - those who have the most to lose - want a voice. We are making our voices heard, and we are still watching.

There are some here, and elsewhere, who seem to think that people like me support Barack Obama simply because he can string together some pretty sounding words. That is not why I support him. I support him because I know, fundamentally, it will cause a shift in our electorate. That it will be a new chapter in our history - a chapter of recovery. This recovery isn't just from the Bush years. No, it's from the Clinton years too. NAFTA did us no favors. However, it isn't even about policy. That is secondary. No, it's about rejecting what has come before and demanding a change of course.

I realize that there are many good and decent older folks out there. This isn't directed at you. However, if you feel offended by what I have written, you might be guilty. I don't apologize - if you are guilty, you are guilty. Let it be on your conscience. I have already turned the page to a new chapter. I am looking to the future, not the past. It is my generations turn to begin leading and changing what is left of this country. I can only hope that enough stand up and shake this nation to its very foundation.

There, having said all the above - I feel much better. I needed to get that off my chest.

[H2O Man]

1. Really interesting.

Thank you for this.

Nominated.

[Freedomofspeech]

35. It nice to see a young person with such passion...

even though I'm over 45.

[H2O Man]

89. 45 is young.

I'd like to be a 45-year old kid again for a day or two.

[tnlefty]

151. Hey H2O Man.

You're wonderful and I'm past 45 myself. :hug:

My young'uns are aware of what's going on - tuned in and turned on - or off when the majority dems do something that they perceive as incomprehensible! They helped to work an Edwards rally today. Passing the torch has it's moments, too, eh?

[King Coal]

41. You're awful nice to that whippersnapper H2O man.

[H2O Man]

90. Didn't Abbie Hoffman

say, "Don't trust anyone under 45?" Well, I think we could make it, "Don't trust many people under 45." But a few of these youngsters are okay.

[Madam Mossfern]

134. It was "Don't trust anyone over 30"

I guess you had to be there.
I don't know, I was sort of insulted by this post.
I marched, I was in sit-ins, I was tear gassed at demonstrations.
I was even at the Grand Central Station Yip-in.

I worked for Eugene McCarthy's campaign and I saw fellow workers getting their heads bashed in at the Chicago convention.
Lord knows I tried and I'm kind of resentful for being lumped in with those who were asleep.

[H2O Man]

157. I know.

I hung out with Abbie. I was joking.

[Mojorabbit]

172. I was too at first

but it occurs to me that maybe there will be a new social and cultural revolution like we had in the 60's. If so, I am happy and can't wait to see how it will turn out.

[MonkeyFunk]

2. I couldn't read all that

I'm old and my eyes aren't that good anymore.

[Meldread]

5. Ha.

:rofl:

It's okay. It might have been too intense for you anyway, your heart can only handle so much. :D

[MonkeyFunk]

6. and even if I could find my good glasses

I'd have to get up to pee four times while reading it.

[Meldread]

19. That's okay.

I had to pee twice while writing it. It's almost six pages long. I wrote half of it, deleted it, and rewrote it over because it sounded too hostile the first time.

Although, I had to say it, otherwise I was likely to have rage build up inside of me until I kicked the first old man that reminded me of John McCain I could find.

[zanne]

29. LMAO! nt

[Bake]

99. Hell, I had to go five times ...

Still waiting for the Flomax to kick in!

Dammit, where did I leave my glasses???

:rofl:

Bake

[Career Prole]

108. You must be a speed reader!

Five pees and two false alarms here.

Gotta admire the "fire inside" the OP, though. It ain't prostate fire and thankfully Big Pharma hasn't come up any drug for it yet. Sure hope it spreads.:D

[Tweed]

96. I'm young and I have ADD

I couldn't read all of it either. Finally something we have in common!

[xchrom]

3. ...

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

11. I'm with you, xchrom.

[Perry Logan]

4. Oh great! We grew up being told we were bounders. Now the next generation is pulling the same shit.

[MonkeyFunk]

7. You read all that in four minutes?!

Well excuse ME, Evelyn Wood.

[Fredda Weinberg]

8. And the generation after that will condemn them. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

158. If there is one...

[roguevalley]

113. we were the first generation to vote at eighteen. when this generation

votes in droves I will feel okay. until then, EAT YOUR PEAS! CLEAN YOUR ROOM! There. I feel better. :evilgrin:

[DemBones DemBones]

153. Yep, but we'll probably get the last laugh

when they fuck things up worse than our generation did, and have their kids turn on them.

I suspect Karl Rove is behind all this let's bash the boomers for obama shit.

[mnhtnbb]

9. I have just one question: How is Obama going to deliver what he's promised?

Talking about change doesn't make it happen.

Oh, but I forgot. I'm just an arrogant old fuck-up who couldn't possibly know shit about how tough it is to get something done when people don't agree with you.

:sarcasm:

[C_U_L8R]

10. Not every person over the age of 45 ...

believes that "just because a person is young, that they are naive, ignorant if not out right stupid."
For example, Obama is 46 : - )))

[HereSince1628]

13. Oh crap, you beat me to it!!

[Meldread]

30. Yeah, I know it wasn't really directed at most people here on the forums.

It was directed to a whole lot of people, some here on the forums, but most who are not. (Most are actually Republican's.) It began as a response to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4242161">this thread. It was also a whole lot more hostile, but when I realized I had started to write a rant... I decided to give it its own thread and clean it up some.

[1corona4u]

69. Then why post it here?

Seems....juvenile to me.

[Sapphocrat]

120. Oh, it's hostile enough.

But, hey, my opinion doesn't count -- I'm just another 46-year-old who fucked up your world, right?

I hope you send this rant to Obama; he's exactly my age, so he must be just as responsible as I am for fucking everything up.

I won't even ask how you can justify trashing everyone over 45, yet still vote for one of us. But I guess I'm just too old to understand.

[MichiganVote]

146. So we should believe you too? LOLOLOLOL!!!

[polichick]

33. He's 46 AND a boomer...

Although he conveniently pretends to be in the next generation.

[Windy]

39. I'm 49 and will be fifty in september. I'm out there for Obama! n/t

[GalleryGod]

122. Go for it!

There was another time, when another young candidate was running for President and challenging America to cross a New Frontier. He faced public criticism from the preceding Democratic President, who was widely respected in the party. Harry Truman said we needed “someone with greater experience”—and added: “May I urge you to be patient.” And John Kennedy replied: “The world is changing. The old ways will not do…It is time for a new generation of leadership.”

So it is with Barack Obama. He has lit a spark of hope amid the fierce urgency of now.

I believe that a wave of change is moving across America. If we do not turn aside, if we dare to set our course for the shores of hope, we together will go beyond the divisions of the past and find our place to build the America of the future.

My friends, I ask you to join in this historic journey -- to have the courage to choose change.

It is time again for a new generation of leadership.

It is time now for Barack Obama.

[HughMoran]

84. I agree

I'm Obamas age and I don't believe the premise at the beginning, so I stopped reading there. All ages are welcome & have something to offer.

[Birthmark]

12. To everyone under 30

Get used to a relentless series of soul-crushing defeats. Welcome to real life.

Nice article, btw.

[MonkeyFunk]

17. LOL!!!

:thumbsup:

[robbedvoter]

14. You lost me at "Clinton fatigue". Obama lost me at the babyboomers bashing

and the whole "I am not so much into the fights of the 60s and 70s.
This geezer - and my fellow geezers (activists all) are staying with ol' Hillary.
No fatigue here - just because MSM told me so. I am only tired of the tone here - the ass handing and ass kicking - and lack of any joy in victory and grace in defeat your camp displays. That fatigue. The Clintons - fine in my book. Every MSM new attack - they get finer by the minute.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

92. robbedvoter speaks for me too!

[jasmine621]

94. Me too. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. The op lost me at, 'you geezers suck, dude!" n/t

[cali]

15. I support Obama. I don't support broad brush smears.

I don't support them on younger people, and I don't support them on older people. I don't support them on the basis of race or gender or ethnicity or religion.

I don't support them because I think they reflect a certain lack of perspicacity. I don't reflect them because they're patently unfair.

I don't support blame games against entire groups.

I don't support your post.

Glad to get that off my chest.

[mac56]

16. You damn kids! Get off my yard!

...oh...sorry...what were we talking about?

:rofl:

[HereSince1628]

18. That over 45 generation once cried 'Trust no one over 30!'

Seems that 45 IS the new 30. That would make the 30's, um, er, . . . better not go there.

:rofl:

But hell, LET'S GET WILD IN THE STREETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[robbedvoter]

25. True. But at least we were protesting wars then too when doing it.

[HereSince1628]

66. Well it is certainly true that the culpable generation as the OP would have

us painted was not just sitting around blaming their parents. Civil rights, anti-war, environmental protection, women's rights were all street fights.

Seems to me that coming of age requires some disappointing awakenings to reality. And it's easy to blame the state of reality on those who came before us.

Each of us grows away from that intergenerational angst at different points--some gradually some with a sudden recognition.

"Silent Spring" had me REALLY frothed up over MY parents generation and the shit that they had allowed to be done to the environment...

then I discovered Racheal Carson was actually part of that generation!

As I looked into the folks behind the chapters in the Handbook for the 1st Earth Day I realized that a LOT of them were part of that generation. Suddenly the good guys and bad guys didn't seem so tightly linked to particular generations. There were folks out there in my grandparents' generation (Leopold) and great grandparents generation (Muir) who had been fighting long before them.

Carson's book, Gaylord Nelson's advocacy for Earth Day, and a multi-generational nationwide awareness (including, of course, baby-boomers in the streets)were important to establishing the NEPA into law.

We are in this together, and we have allies amoung the younger and the older.

[robbedvoter]

102. Wonderful post!

[cascadiance]

148. Excellent summary!

It is about not simplifying who's "with us" and who's "agin us" based on race, gender, age, religion, etc.

It's about getting down to the brass tacks of what they will do for us. And we need to recognize our diversity in positive ways. Each group when understanding the fundamental problems needs to lend its unique strengths and not be burdened by its weaknesses in helping us get to the overall solution.

1) Younger people under 18:
- They can't vote, but they certainly can help spread the word, especially with the newer "media" of today that they are more familiar with than their elders.
- They might not have the freedom that an adult has, but as long as they keep up their homework, they might have a lot more time to help build a solution. They can work with teachers to direct their studies as a high school student to be helpful with a solution.
- They have the BIGGEST vested interests in solving the global warming and other environmental problems, since they will feel the effects of this more than the rest of us in the years to come.

2) Younger people over 18:
- They can vote, and vote for the first time, and have friends they can convince to vote for the first time, with the biggest shot of making a "first impression".
- They are the focal point of many ads in society, since they are the largest consumers. With their buying power directed conscientiously to those products, services, and companies that do the right thing for our environment, our jobs, economy, etc. they have a LOT of power.
- They can afford more to take risks in some senses, as they have their lives ahead of them to correct any obstacles they get thrown to them now. Though this is less of an advantage than we had in the 60's/70's, when the middle class was a lot better off, and going to college wasn't as much of a requirement or out of reach as it is for many today, and also in danger of being "outsourced". Us older folks have to recognize that the challenges for younger people today are in many ways more difficult than they were for us when we were young. Still young people need to recognize that on a large scale they still have the better ability to take risks than all of us NOW.
- they are more physically immune to certain kinds of obstacles that an aging person might feel as they get older (fatigue, disease, etc.), so they can do the "marathons" that are needed at times.

3) Older people who still haven't retired yet:
- They can vote, and have had a lot more experience voting, and perhaps political experience with the past. They can lend their wisdom to others of what to expect, and what to demand of future leaders.
- With added parental and job responsibilities, ESPECIALLY today compared to our parents in the 60's where families could be quite comfortable with a single wage earner with less than a college education, it is increasingly difficult for this age group to find the time and resources to help with being politically active. The mainstream media and the small amount of time they have to be informed also adds to this problem. They have to make a POINT to dedicate time both to be informed as well as to participate in the process of helping to do something.
- This group, though perhaps with less power in the past, has probably the most power both financially, as well as in terms of their positions of responsibility in their jobs and other organizations, to help lead different areas of change at a grass roots level. Grass roots level of change is VERY needed today, and you need well targeted people in this age group to help effect certain kinds of change that you never otherwise would be able to.
- Their health and energy and lack of being able to "restart" makes it harder for them to take risks in many areas than those that are younger than they. This is especially difficult for this group that perhaps were used to taking many risks when they were young, to know when it is appropriate to "push the envelope", when their taking risks could affect so many people around them if not done right.

4) Older people that have retired:
- This group of people votes more than anyone else. Let's make sure that they are armed with the proper information to help them vote the right way for all of us.
- This group may be the most affected by health problems, especially with the current lame state of health care, bankruptcy protection, and social security benefits. That perhaps makes many of them more predisposed to help us in many areas where they are personally affected, but also in many ways limits their ability to participate, if their health issues, or health issues of those around them become a problem.
- This group, if healthy and freed of financial problems, perhaps has the MOST ability in many cases to spend a lot of time and resources helping with political issues. Having been through a lifetime of managing their resources and free time, they are in a good position to know how much they can or can't give. Let's tap those with a lot of time and energy. They will be invaluable!
- This group probably has the greatest appreciation of social security needs, health care needs, job security needs, having had to deal with it more personally than other age groups have. Therefore they will be the best people to help build good solutions that take care of everyone for the future.
- This group has the most wisdom of past history, having been around the longest, and might even be able to help us understand things like the effects of the holocaust from WWII, the lifelong struggle of Israel vs. Palestine, the struggle for civil rights and voting rights that had a lot of meaning in the 60's. We should respect this wisdom and use it.

In short, we all need to work together to maximize our ability to win and create a decent society that fixes the many problems we face today. Let's not separate ourselves please!

[zanne]

20. Ouch. As a woman of 55, let me say...

Some of that was deserved. You'll find, as you go through life, that you're part of a minority of citizens who have a progressive mindset. My generation fought for the end of a disastrous war perpetrated by our parents' generation. We fought for civil rights; we fought for womens' equality. We fought for another way of living; a freer, more open-minded way of living. Some of us stayed true to our values; some of us sold out. The people who sold out brought you Iraq, hatred, religious fanaticism and opportunism.

Now that I've defended my generation, let me tell you how happy I was to read your OP. Until I started volunteering for Senator Obama here in NH, I'd had very little contact with people your age and I was cynical. The young people I worked with (and will continue to work with) on this campaign taught me alot. They're more realistic that my generation was at their age, but still optimistic. They have the courage of their convictions and they'll work like dogs to make change happen. They're actually friendly to older people. (In my generation, that wasn't always true.) Above all, they're smart, competent people who don't shy away from a challenge.

Please don't fall into the "cynicism" trap as you get older. Cynics don't help anyone. I thank you for supporting Barack Obama. People your age have helped me conquer some of the cynical ideas I had. Now I feel that I have the best of both worlds; experience and optimism can't be beat.

Thank you for your post and stay true!

[Perry Logan]

21. Whippersnappers! We gave you the longest sustained economic expansion in U.S. history, dammit.

A simple thank-you will suffice.

[1corona4u]

85. Not to mention....

Playstation, Nintendo 64, Gameboy, Cell phones, computers, DVD's/CD's, Ipods, Cordless phones, VHS/VCR recorders, Walkmans, Apple Mac, Nike sneakers, floppy disk, Pentium processors, micro processors, ethernet, Xerox, Laser printers, Ink jet printers, Computer Mouse, Roller blades, Hubble Space Telescope, GPS, Com Satellites, Satellite TV, Digital Cameras, THE WEB, Post it notes, Rubik's Cube, Lasers, The Space Shuttle, Music Videos, Cable Television, Full intergration of 'in color' television broadcasting, automobile air bags, Bar Codes, Email, LCD's, MRI's, The Pacemaker, Fiber optics, Kevlar, Hypertext, Portable Calculators.....


And some of the musicians;

The Beatles, The Police, Bob Dylan, Rolling Stones, The Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix Experience, The Doors, The Supremes, The Beach Boys, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Duran Duran, Van Halen, Foreigner, Phil Collins, Huey Lewis and the News, Wang Chung, Tears for Fears, Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, Heart, Juice Newton, Culture Club, The Eurythmics, Def Leppard, Deacon Blue, Bryan Adams, Queen, Depeche Mode, U2, Simple Minds, Madonna, Cyndi Lauper, Cher, Rick Springfield, Tina Turner, Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, Olivia Newton-John, Prince, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, Beastie Boys, Kim Wilde, Laura Branigan, The Cars and Bon Jovi, Led Zepplin, Rapper & Hip Hop artist(too many to list)


OPRAH WINFREY, MTV, The Weather Channel, Saturday Night Live, Star Wars, ET, Late Night w/David Letterman, CNN, Fox, 60 Minutes....



Now, just what has the 20-something generation given us? Except grief?

[Xipe Totec]

22. As you see yourself, I saw myself.

As you see me, you shall become.

Enjoy the ride.

- my father's adage.

[marions ghost]

143. yes

the older you get the more you realize what it really takes to change anything on the macro scale.

Going out to promote Obama is a start...but much more will be required...for any longterm change. It won't be easy if it can be done at all. The forces against us are formidable. The best hope is for the generations to stick together. It's ridiculous for younger generations to think that they will be the heroic generation that fixes everything. Delusional.

The smart way to go is to join with others of any age who think like you do, and don't fall for divisive
manipulation.

[MethuenProgressive]

23. "This message is not a slam on those who are old." Yeah, right.

"over 45" is "old"?
Get off my lawn.

[stellanoir]

24. Perhaps Obama summarized it best when he said in S.C.

something like ". . .This election isn't about black and white. It's about the past and the future. . ."

I too am appalled by what's transpired over the course of my adult life.

Just curious. . .Why did you choose the age of demarkation as 45?

[MonkeyFunk]

26. he probably knows I'm 46 and wanted to irritate me

[robbedvoter]

27. Obama is 46 - I guess.

[Meldread]

42. Because...

...that seems to be the age cut off for overwhelming support for Obama. :P

The majority of people under 45 seem to be supporting Obama.

However, really it is a response to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4242161">this thread.

It was more hostile when I first wrote it (I was angry), but it was something I was feeling for awhile. Especially with idiots like "100 More Years" John McCain. I realized it was going to be long, so I cleaned it up and put it in its own thread. If you want to see some context you should probably view the above thread.

[VotesForWomen]

131. the future is going to be whole lot like the past. at least in the short term. nt

[NoFederales]

28. Try writing this w/o the pronoun "you". The tonal shift and economy of word

yeilds surprising results.

NoFederales

[Girlieman]

31. You're so lame

You want to blame somebody for the way things have been run for the last 7 years? Try looking in the mirror. In the 2000 election, little more than a third of the population 18-25 voted in the 2000 presidential election. The so called "youth vote" could easily have put Kerry in the White House in 2004, if they had only got off their butts and voted.

Now that your laziness has resulted in the worst president in over 100 years, you blame those of us who actually spent time and money opposing Bush?

Stuff it pal.

Remember this, every one of us over 45 used to be 25.

Then again, what do you expect from somebody who thinks of 45 as "old." My 16 year old son has more sense than this.

[Kindigger]

58. n/t

:thumbsup:

[mnhtnbb]

59. Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner!

[krabigirl]

91. LOL! This 30-something agrees, mostly. And if 45 is old, then so is Obama. (it isn't)

[pleah]

107. You took the words right out of my mouth!

These folks who think holding hands and playing nice with repukes will work are just dreaming. Repukes will eat them for lunch.

[lumberjack_jeff]

138. Rock on, dude! n/t

[NashVegas]

141. Short, Sweet, To the Point

I likes it.

[Sparkly]

32. Obama is over 45.

Just sayin'.

I don't think it helps ANYthing to drive a political wedge on age.

[Olney Blue]

34. I love your passion!

[EstimatedProphet]

36. I've gotten old, and my memory has failed...

but I don't recall doing any of those things you're saying I did. Are you sure you're not getting me mixed up with someone else? That happens sometimes.

[Schema Thing]

37. A group of young people who couldn't be arsed

to protest a transparently unjust war should be circumspect when their wallet makes them suddenly feel their political oats.

[Jai4WKC08]

48. Why should they protest the war?

There's no draft, so it doesn't affect them, right? Well, it didn't until it pulled the economy in the toilet, but who could see that coming?

Except maybe those who have seen it before. You know, the ones with... experience?

[DemGa]

38. Whew, good thing I'm only 42!

And still very young at that!

So Obama will end the Iraq war, bring the troops home, give us universal healthcare, etc. And all the while with the Republicans sitting wide-eyed in "unity."

Such a lovely, cozy thought. And what will cause this change of heart in our former enemies? Obama's vision? Intent? I think I'm seeing it now: the CLINTON'S caused the attacks by Republicans on the Clintons!

Please do tell. Give a specific. This could be a true paradigm shift!

[parasim]

40. Thank you for that. An I'm 50.

And was able to read the whole thing without having to get up to pee even once! I know it wasn't directed at me, because I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment.

I have two sons that are about your age (a little younger) and although they are pretty liberal, I wish they had the fire in them like you do. I'm beginning to think that perhaps they assume that there must always be a Clinton or a Bush on the presidential ballot, since for most of their lives it's been one or the other.

Yes, this country needs change. Big time.

Thanks again. Hopefully my fellow AARPers will realize the messed up world we are leaving for your generation.

[polichick]

43. I'm glad you care enough to bother writing this piece...

Every generation points fingers at the one ahead of them when it's their turn to take an active role ~ we boomers did it too. None of us can imagine how anyone could fuck up the country so royally! And then, after a few years of activism, you find out that there's a whole other group of people in your own generation who will try to undo every good thing you're working your ass off to accomplish.

[Sadie4629]

44. You say you can't speak for others of your generation

so why do you think you can lump US all together. We are not a monolith, any more than your generation is.

[Kindigger]

60. 45------->

we're all in the same generation as john mccain :eyes:

[Sadie4629]

65. I caught that, too

Makes me feel really, really old.

Now if I could just remember where I put my Metamucil, dentures, and bifocals, I could get ready for Bingo at the Senior Center. :eyes:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

111. I would love to see a thoughtful response to your question.

While I admire the passion and energy it took to write this, it seems that there is a misguided attempt to shoulder the burden of responsibility on too large a proportion of the populace.

[Jai4WKC08]

45. When you gain experience

You will learn to value it. Because you will realize that you can't have judgment without it. Only lucky guesses.

I know you don't believe me now. But when you gain experience, you will.

[denem]

46. The Song Remains the Same

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly aging.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changing

[Kokonoe]

47. Listen to your elders

Back in the 60's people over 45 said we were going to screw up this country, and we did.

[blue neen]

49. If I painted your generation with a broad brush like you just did to mine,

you would be furious. And I am. I am offended, and I am not guilty.

For the record, my son is also 25. I worked very hard in the elecion of 2004 and also the congressional elections of 2006. I did everything in my power to get my son and friends interested in the process and had some success at that. If they did not work outright in the elections, they at the very least voted.

My son has told me that his very first memory is of me shooting rubber bands at the TV set every time Ronald Reagan came on. I absolutely couldn't stand the man, what he did to the unions, what he did to our economy, Iran-Contra, the list goes on.

Some of us have been fighting against Republicans all of our lives and getting nowhere. It's been disheartening and frustrating. Some of us do not deserve to be criticized.

One of my biggest goals when I was raising a child was that I wanted very much to raise someone who was open minded...somone who respected women and minorites...someone who respected other human beings for who they are and wasn't quick to criticize.

I think I have been successful.

[Meldread]

63. Sorry.

My post began as a response to a post in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4242161">this thread.

It is one of my pet peeves when people, especially in the media, basically write my generation off. I also really hate stuff where, for example, no one called John McCain on his gun-ho love for the war in Iraq. No one has basically pointed out - hey this guy is going to be dead in a few years. It's harsh - but that's the truth. He is giving virtually nothing to the war in Iraq - he'll be dead before the bill shows up, and he's too old to fight. Yet he wants to send my generation in to not only pay the bill but to die?

Then it just gets compounded by the fact that some people, here on these forums, seem to be flabbergasted over the fact that my generation is turning out in record numbers. They don't seem to get the fact that we're the people who are carrying the brunt of what is going on in Iraq - in blood and will be the ones who have to pay for it. We are the ones likely to live long enough to see all the bad things predicted about in climate change, and our children surely will. There is so much bad stuff coming down the pipe and it's basically being dumped in our laps, and it irks me when people who should know better are literally confused over why we care so much - as if we didn't have a stake at all. It feels dismissive and out of touch.

Then of course, we get things like, "(Obama is) a sensation. Kind of like a Spiderman movie or an X-Box or whatever the buzz is - it's fun and it's a scene." It implies that we somehow lack the ability to make an informed judgment on a candidate. It insults our intelligence, and it's a serious pet peeve of mine.

However, I am sorry if it offended you. It was a rant that I just needed to type and get off my chest. I don't expect most people to read all of it - or even most of it - I typed it out mostly for my benefit.

I needed to let my face become red, my nostrils to flair up, and to wag my finger disapprovingly while shouting "Shame on you!" :P

[Bluenorthwest]

Where have you guys been?

Where was this fire over the last 7 years? Voting for a candidate is not exactly the same as actually standing up against an immoral war. I have noticed the lack of involvment by younger people for years now. It is good you are finally waking up a bit, at long loving last! You are in fact late to the game, and that is a bit disappointing.
I'm Obama's age, which is too old for your piece. I'm gay as well. When I came of age, I had the benefit of the great and brave political and social work done by those older than me. They faced a level of repression (arrest for being gay) that I never had to face, because of them. I hold them in great esteem for that. As well I should.
When I was your age, the US government and the insurance companies were pretending AIDS did not exist, and people like me and my friends (gay and straight and by the way black and white and latin and from ages 16-85) organized and protested as our friends and family died at an alarming pace. We pioneered the safe sex guidelines that the world takes for granted. There was talk back then of isolating at risk populations in camps. And we were in the streets.
Had all of this not gone on, what came before me and what I did and do, your life would be very different from the one you now lead. That is the fact. Disprespect that at your own risk, and I heartily recommmend having some level of sucess as an activist prior to condeming those who came before. Electing a Democratic candidate is good, and the more younger people who join in the process the better. But, and please try to really hear this, after Reagan and Bush1, Bill Clinton was every bit as refreshing and new as Obama is today. Electing him was a good thing, but it was by no means enough. He was young and from a non political family, played the sax on MTV and Arsenio, a casual style no one had ever seen in a Presidetial candidate. So the form does not always play out in the function. Forgive me if I need to see results before I proclaim anyone a hero.
I'm not comfortable with the pandering to the ex-gay movement at all. I hope to see Obama clean up those ties or speak directly to the gay community without the code words and all. I might be able to back him if he does. If he keeps that crowd with no balance, I'll not be supporting him actively. I love myself and my family, I vote for our equality and saftey. I vote to keep the bigots at bay, not to invite them to perform at Inauguration.
Be an activist. Stop fawning over Obama and pointing fingers at those who don't, instead try to win some votes, try to improve Obama's rhetoric about gay people by contacting his campaign. That is what you should be doing. Attacking people for being Obama's very own age is a weak tactic and one that will not gain any votes to your side. So much vitriol in the Obama camp, so much willingness to blame and point fingers, but also a lack of honesty about the campaign's own divisiveness in regard to gay baiting. I gave him money way back last year, and he instantly produced events where my family was bashed. So....
But thank your generation for standing up to GW like you did, defending the Constitution and demanding Habeus Corpus restorations! Thanks for the millions of you who hit the streets and refused to be a part of such a mad society...oh wait. You guys did nothing for 7 long years. So thanks for nothing I guess, but welcome to the party, late and behind on your work as you are. Drop the smug and get to work!

[NashVegas]

142. What a Wonderful Post!

You pointed out what I was going to when I got to the end of the thread and was going to make my own reply: pointed out how divisive Barack Obama's campaign is within the Democratic Party, while proclaiming to be about change - and in this case, citing examples of Dem v VRWC fights.

Grrrrr.

[here_is_to_hope]

135. I would feel better if you had a star next to your name...n/t

[MichiganVote]

147. You're young and you feel dismissed in a post and you write this garbage dismissing others?

Go get a job. Clean your room. You're not mature enough for politics yet kid.

[Apollo11]

50. Guess what? "Age Doesn't Matter"

If you want to think in terms of guilt, then I guess pretty much all of us who are 25 or older should share part of the blame for allowing Bu$h-Cheney-Rove to stage a coup backed by FOX News and the US Supreme Court, steal executive power, give tax cuts to the rich, start wars and trample all over the constitution these past 7 years. Especially (but not only) if you voted Nader in 2000!

However, I definitely appreciate your patriotism, your passion and your energy. I also agree with your choice of candidate! B-)

[cboy4]

51. "Decent older folks"

:eyes:

I'm glad you feel better.

I, however, would like these five minutes of my life back.

[terrya]

62. My God.

Man, this curmudgeonly old man of 51 feels SO much better about that.

Sheesh. :eyes:

[cboy4]

67. I hear ya gramps

:eyes:

[mcscajun]

52. I applaud your passion, but McCain is NOT of our (the Boomers) generation.

Meaning the Baby Boomers (born between 1946-64). He's a member of the Silent Generation, those born between the two World Wars.

[ravencalling]

53. Hmmm Weird...

I sort of feel the same way about the younger generation at times, and I am very proud of the young people that are out there supporting and fighting for change in this country. I used to get harrassed by my children over my own rantings regarding Bush and the state of our country, the shredding of our Constitution.. "Constitution??".. or just blank vapid stares..is what I would usually get in return. You know that deer in the headlights look or that annoyed look or the rolling of the eyes.. To them I was the nutball! Everything in their world was fine, ipods and video games, school and having fun and being young and it will never end of course.

Used to have a stepdaughter who was a Bushy and a Christian Fascist and a she was in her 20's. I have never heard anything as repulsive as the things that would come out of this young lady's mouth. I barred them from my home when she proudly claimed that the people killed in the Tsunami deserved to die because they were not Christian's. She also added that the pity she had was due to the fact that they were all going to hell. God, to see someone so young be so completely brainwashed. It was bone chilling!

LOL on the over 45ers.

Some of it is deserved, but of people not of age groups.

[Tennessee Gal]

54. Sorry, "we" did not do what you are accusing us of.

"When I was growing up, I was taught that each generation should leave the world in a bit better shape than the last. You have ruined it. You have enabled the shredding of the Constitution I was supposed to inherit. You have enabled a war that should have never happened. You have destroyed an economy that should have been mine. You have ruined an environment that you should have protected."

All of that should be laid in the lap of George W. Bush. Go post it in FreeRepublic. I doubt very many people posting on DU voted for any of that. Turn your anger on the right people.

[OnionPatch]

127. Hear hear!

"Turn your anger on the right people."

I've been voting against this kind of fascist BS my whole life. I've been working toward protecting the environment my whole life. I've been getting the deer in the headlights stare from those of the younger generation my whole life when I mention those things. Now, suddenly, everything is my fault? :wtf:

[melody]

55. Obama is over 45

And while we're at it, I used to say all the same stuff to people over 45 when I was your age.
Trust me, you'll hear it from young people when you're 45, too. It's the nature of time. A lot
of your commentary sounds like anger tinged with age-ism. I don't blame younger people and I
certainly don't look down on them. However, just as there are some old minds too inflexible to admit
new ideas, there are some young minds too callow to acknowledge that not all older folk (I sound like
I should be rocking in a chair somewhere) are like that.

[JohnnyLib2]

76. Well said. Its a two way thing and "the nature of time," as you

so nicely put it.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

56. K&R.

:toast:

[WinkyDink]

57. "Over age 45" and linked with Social Security checks? You're younger than you think.

And have you told the Republicans about this Obama rapprochement?

P.S. You slimed the 55,000 of my generation who died in VietNam, a tragedy NOT of their making.
Not to mention the anti-war protestors, who are STILL THE ONLY ONES PROTESTING. Where is the OUTRAGE on college campuses??

[zeemike]

61. You are right we do owe you an apology

And we are leaving you a world full of shit to deal with
But this struggle goes way back to the times of the underground railroad and the attempt by liberals to end slavery.
And these two classes of peoples have been struggling for power all this time
We won some great victories in the sixties with civil rights and it cost the lives of many of our leaders. But at some point in the late 70s we got tired of the fight and just wanted to dance and enjoy our youth.
But the opposition did not stop, they just changed there goals to that of a so called "free market economy" and got them an actor to play a role and deregulate the system to allow money and power to flow like a river into there money dams.
After that it was possible for them to just buy the government and they did.
Yes you have a big mess to clean up and you do need leadership that can insist on fundamental change, and I hop for our sake as well as yours that whoever is elected in 08 will start the process.
But a warning to you from history....it will be a long struggle and you must not give up or give in. and perhaps you can pass on an earth that is healing itself to the next generation with no apologies necessary.

[MonkeyFunk]

71. No

this struggles goes back to the time mankind first started walking upright.

[madmom]

64. when my 24 year old daughter told me the reason some gave for voting for bush,

I screamed !!..."he's cute"...."I like his eyes"... and you want to blame this on us? yeah right!!!

edited to say: don't forget about that beer!

[1corona4u]

68. And if your candidate has his way....

us baby boomers won't be getting those social security checks until we're seventy fucking five.

No thanks. You should burn this letter to disk. For posterity sake.

78 million baby boomers are about to tell you where to get off...

[Gman]

70. Sorry, but you're still very young and naive and your OP shows it

See, what you don't understand, even though you wrote it out point by point, is you think the world began in approximately 2000. You don't understand because you're still young and naive. You have no clue, nor show any inclination to find out, how good the Clinton years were for the entire country. You have no clue, nor do you show any inclination to find out how good the Clinton years were compared to 12 years of Reagan-Bush. You don't KNOW because you weren't there trying to raise a family, and keep from being laid off. If you did care to find out, you only "know" because somebody told you or maybe you read it somewhere. You did not live it.

Can you even tell me how Bill Clinton's systematic tax breaks for companies that employed people and kept the jobs in the US was far superior in effectiveness than Bush's tax cuts? Did you even know that? I doubt it because it goes against the herd mentality that you have bought into. It's so tempting when you're young to buy into a herd mentality.

But, I don't blame you too much for being, sorry, stupid. We were all young and stupid at some point.

You don't really have a clue what this world is about. Do you have a job? Are you raising a family?

In fact, you're probably more "young and naive" than a lot of kids your age. Get back to us when you've been paying taxes for 20 years and you're raising a family and have to put food on the table. Maybe we'll give your opinion more respect then.

The best thing you can do is to sit down, shut up and let the adults handle this. But you can't because you're young and naive.

BTW, young people don't vote. Why? Because they're young and stupid.

[Maven]

105. I have to agree with the thrust of your post. I think the most naive assumption this poster makes

along with many other people his age who think the same way, was that the battles of the '80s and '90s were simply a generational thing that will go away if we simply turn to fresh faces for leadership. That the same entrenched interests and the conflicting ideology they represent will simply cease to be relevant. It's largely due to their very short historical perspective, as you say.

He and many others have much to learn.

[Adelante]

72. I am 60 years old

I bow to nobody on my generation's achievements in furthering civil rights for blacks, gays and women. Dramatically improving the environment. Fighting poverty and opening economic opportunity. And stopping a war, which your generation has yet to accomplish, just sayin'. Wait a few years and you will be defending your life choices, too, because this is what happens in eras of generational change. And you will be asking yourself, just what does this pisspants know about it, anyhow? Mark my words, no generation gets out of this process we call life unscorned.

But generations do grow old, grow wealthy, grow complicit, if not corrupt, in the status quo that fails so many (including very many in the same generation). I do think this is one of those times when one generation is required to step back and let a newer one come forward. This doesn't mean Obama excludes the elder generation or doesn't respect us or sees us as non-contributors or won't take in its wisdom. It's simply another time and we have to loosen the lock we as a generation have on power. That's progress, that's life, that's the way the cookie crumbles for every generation when the time comes. That time is here and now and Obama represents that. It's one of the reasons I support him. Is he the perfect messenger? I don't know. But he seems to me to be on the right side of history, and he seems to me to embody something profound stirring in the country, and he embraces Democratic values and ideas and without a doubt is able to communicate them to a vast number of Americans.

Obama is the right candidate for all generations, in my opinion.

[mod mom]

73. I'm close to 50 and have wondered where were the young folks during the antiwar marchs

(I've been attending w my family from before the Iraq War. I also wondered where were the young people after the stolen elections. (yes there were a few from the league of pissed off voters, but the vast majority were my age or older).

Glad to see you are interested in involvement. Here's hoping you can get your fellow young folks to join you.

[depakid]

74. Nothing wrong with being young & naive -or wanting to hope

We all were like that at one time. The thing that age can give you though is perspective, and a sense of when of when someone's pulling your leg- and/or feeding into what may be your better qualities, but isn't on the level. Call it "horse sense."

Without perspective, with the rhetoric I've been hearing all you're likely to get is disappointment- and pardon us, but unlike you, we've seen this sort of deal all too many times before (and on this level, pardon us again- but you'll be taking all of us down with you).

One should note that the last parenthetical holds even more true with the Clintons. They don't seem to care who they take down with them- state and local candidates and ballot issues would suffer worse if they got the nomination.

That said- Obama cannot- and will not "persuade" or "inspire" Republicans in ANY region- nor will he end up with "independent" votes outside the blue states. Unity with Republicans is a farce- these aren't the type of people who'll be appeased. More often than not- they're not even rational, they'll vote against their own interests (for a variety of reasons, none of which Obama could overcome in 10 years worth of Sundays).

He won't change the nature of the electorate- the electorate is what it is. He won't change the nature of Republicans and their ilk, and most of us know that it's unrealistic to think so. That's just how it is- and if you need evidence (or even want evidence) just look to you're own living memory and think about how they've behaved over the past 15 years. They're not going to up and change their stripes, no matter how much you wish and hope they will.

What they respect (and all they respect) is someone who'll stand up and give them a tooth and nail fight. Platitudes about "unity" and "working together" -at best they laugh at that (unless of course what they're looking for is ways to further their far right agenda).

[IsItJustMe]

75. I can understand what you are saying my friend. But you are making a fundamental error in your

logic. You are forgetting that we are all in this boat together (different races, different ages, different religions, etc....)

Your message creates an 'us' versus 'them' mentality. A call to tribalism, based on age, if you will. If I understand BO's message at all, it's about transcendence, the exact opposite of where you are heading with this post.

But having said that, I understand how and why you come to the conclusion that one particular generation is to blame for all of the problems that face this country. I wish life was that easy, but it's not.


On Edit: Keep the faith and passion, regardless of what anyone says.

[JohnnyLib2]

77. Good post. You, I could discuss things with, age gap or not.

We could use more of that, on DU and in general.

Grandpa JL2 K & R

[LWolf]

78. My response:

For the record, I am 47, was born in 1960, and will turn 48 in a few months.

First of all, I appreciate your passion and your energy. I respect your right to make your own choices. I love "young" people. I've chosen to spend my life educating them.

I put "young" in quotes because "young" can be a state of mind, and can be interpreted differently. The young tend to have abundant energy and passion, to be optimistic, and to prefer immediate action. Older people, having already been there and done that, tend to be less energetic and more methodical. Some older people, having had that passion, enthusiasm, and energy beat out of them over the course of time by defeat and disillusionment, tend to be pretty cynical. I'll admit to a healthy dose of cynicism myself. Still, I am "young" enough to want immediate action on many fronts.

That said, there are young people whose pov is "old," and older people who remain "young."

I don't carry responsibility for the state of this nation. I don't accept that responsibility. I grew up during the civil rights movement, and had great examples set for me. The first presidential election I was eligible to vote in elected Ronald Reagan. I did not vote for him. I spent the Reagan years as a poor working parent, struggling to keep food on the table, and a roof over the head, of my two kids. I went to night school to further my education. I had little time for activism, but I kept up on current events. I wrote letters and voted.

By the 90s I finally finished my education. It took me 12 years, working and raising kids the whole time. At that time, I became more active. Still, my entire political life has been spent pissing into the wind.

Rarely has any candidate I ever worked for, donated to, or voted for been elected. One president: Clinton. I didn't even like him, but I certainly knew better than to vote for the republican.

I'm used to losing. Many people, in my position, "switch" to the "winners," even if those who have the capacity to "win" don't really represent their positions on issues. I don't. I won't claim a "win" until I actually "win" something.

So I've continued to speak out, to march, to write, to act, to vote, for the change I wish to see.

Win or lose. If I give up, I will certainly never win anything.

I did not exploit 9/11, btw. The Bush administration did. Too many citizens of all ages and all parties allowed it to happen, wallowing in fear and outrage, and allowing their emotional strings to be pulled.

I was considered "cold" because I did not join them in that process.

Here are the things I wish to see:

Social and economic justice.

Here are the things I believe measure the level of achievement of that goal:

Universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health CARE. As a right.
The end of privatization.
The end of corporate personhood.
The end of war.
Universal, high quality, individualized public pre-school through college, not based on the factory model or the corporate "continued improvement" model.
Guaranteed employment.
A living wage.
The end of NAFTA/CAFTA.
Abundant affordable, safe housing.
The end of Monsanto and genetically modified foods, and factory farms, replaced by local production of food by family farms.
100% publicly financed elections, with no outside money allowed. In other words, equal funding, and removal of all financial influence on elections and representatives.
IRV or another form of ranked voting.
A new fairness doctrine.

These are the things I have supported and worked for. If more people had joined me, we might have achieved a few of them.

I'm not supporting Obama, because he does not represent the changes I wish to see.

I don't like his platform. It too closely resembles the republicans I've spent a lifetime battling.

I don't like his religiously oriented campaigning. Not that I oppose faith, but that he's stepped way too far over my personal line of separation.

I don't like his relationship with homophobes; bigots of another kind. I don't excuse racism with a passionate call to reach out to my racist brothers and sisters, and I don't excuse homophobia, either.

I don't like his admiration of Ronald Reagan. I lived through the Reagan nightmare.

He leaves too many corporations "at the table," and he leaves some unacceptable policies there, too. Unilateral military action will never be acceptable to me, and the "war on terror" is bullshit propaganda that needs to be debunked, not continued.

I could go on, but I've got to get ready for work. The bottom line is that, while I respect your passion and enthusiasm, I can't join you when it comes to Obama. I think you are mistaken. It has nothing to do with your youth. It has to do with the fact that I will never see the social and economic justice I wish to see under an Obama administration.

[kickysnana]

79. As Jesse Ventura proved if those under 45 had voted all this would not have happened.

I don't really believe that but like your rant it has a grain of truth. There are those under 45 involved in the stealing of the elections from at least 2000. There are those under 45 who voted for the bad guys. There are those under 45 who helped bust the unions because they didn't need them. There are those under 45 who are not for Obama. It was not the over 45 crowd that voted most heavily for the Pugs.

On her death bed this month, my 80 year old mother asked me what I thought of Obama and I told her that I thought he was naive and would be eaten alive and I abhorred his stance on gays but I would vote for him, but only if he got the nomination, because I thought his weakness was also his strength in that he would learn where Hillary is tilting at 1990's windmills and her stance on Health Care proves she hasn't learned a thing and then there is the economy and welfare, where Clinton's actions were just wrong.

If you are going to war you had better know who the enemy is because you seem to have the same problem Bush had in 911 who picked one who fit his personal prejudice.

So please you and your friends vote and keep trying but don't dismiss whole classes of people because some are wrong, because that is what America is about working together for the common good.

[MmeG]

80. No way that I am in McCain's generation

Huh? to lump everyone over 45 into the same group is completely nuts. Too bad you are unable to see the nuances. Maybe the world went to hell while I was struggling to pay the ridiculously high rent, health care premiums, and take care of my kid - in a 2 income family. After the baby was born, we still owed the hospital thousands of dollars, even with healthcare. It took us YEARS to pay that off. I guess that didn't give us time to solve the 'problems that other nations solved long ago'. Get real.

[L0oniX]

81. Why trust the youth when 45% are dropping out of school? Bunch of dummies.

[Unbowed]

82. I resisted what Obama represented at first.

I viewed him as an upstart of sorts, someone trying to change a system I was comfortable with. Who the Hell was this guy to come out of nowhere and tell us that everything we had been doing was wrong? It was hard for me to accept the concept of change as proposed by Barack Obama. I hated the term "Dinos" with a passion. You see, it's very difficult for someone with a number of years on this earth to accept the premise that sometimes you need a younger and fresher viewpoint.

Sometimes those of us who are older (over 45 for the sake of this discussion) cling to what we know. It's hard to let go of the past, of beliefs and ways of doing things that have been eclipsed by time and by innovation. Tradition is hard to let go of, even after it's become outdated.

Young people, such as yourself, are the ones who got me to take a closer look at Barack Obama after Chris Dodd's departure from the race left me without a candidate. I saw enthusiasm from young people who had never before considered voting.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I value my years and what they have taught me, but I do envy the fresh perspective of youth.

The discussion of vision vs. experience is a good one to have. As an over 45'er, I have to admit that my knee-jerk response is to side with experience. You live so many years on the earth and you want to believe that your years have amounted to something. Hell, I'm not getting old, I'm gaining experience. While this is true to some extent, it has to be viewed as less than an absolute. Not all experience is good and not everyone learns from their experience as they should. Valuing experience should also not blind one to ideas that come from fresh perspectives and vision. Many times, I've been shown a new way of doing something by a younger person that was better than the method I'd been using for years. Although grateful for the innovation, I admit to feeling a twinge of resentment. It's hard to accept that you have been doing something the hard way when a better way was just one vision away. Even harder when the vision was not yours but the product of a younger, more open perspective.

It's not easy to pass the torch. It's hard to step aside and let the next generation take charge. Beneath every issue, there is always an underlying theme of mortality and permanence. Nothing is permanent, however. Times change, the world changes and our individual lives change. Our government must evolve to meet these changes.

In Barack Obama, I see the future. The future is not my parents world. It is not even my world. It is the world of my children and of the generations to follow them. Barack Obama is a visionary, but he's also the new guard. He's smart enough and knowledgeable enough to use the past to carve a new future. When he is compared to John Kennedy, it is not a comparison to the past; it is a comparison to a leader who changed the direction of the world in a positive way. Kennedy had a vision of a world that previous leaders did not. He was young. He had less experience than his opponent when he ran for President, but his vision took us forward. Obama will take us forward into a new day, a day of our own making. The best leaders are those who believe in us and who make us believe in ourselves. I believe Barack Obama is that kind of leader.

When old guard leaders like John Kerry and Ted Kennedy are ready to pass the torch to Obama, it is nothing less than monumental. These men have been around a long time, their names synonymous with experience, and yet they chose the vision of Obama to lead our country and bring our people together. It is a fundamental truth that you can gain experience but have you ever heard of anyone learning to be a visionary?

A true visionary values change and experience. A true visionary uses the experience of the best and brightest to help bring about the vision of a better way. I've no doubt that Barack Obama is such a visionary. An Obama administration will be overflowing with the most experienced and the most innovative minds our country has to offer. It's called leadership.

[mondo joe]

83. You certainly do type a lot! I'm too old to type that much.

But that doesn't mean much about your reasoning. :-)

[OneGrassRoot]

86. Wow. I read your piece, and scanned the responses...

Count me in as a 44-year-old who is pissed at ANYONE of any age who has, and is still, allowing mainstream media and Corporate America to dictate EVERYTHING.

Your generation is better at using the Internet, in general, than the "older" people. I wish more in ANY age group used it to gain facts and research in order to form reasoned opinions.

Having an interest is the first step, and I applaud you personally and those like you of any age. I especially applaud anyone who then looks beyond the surface of what's being shoved down our collective throats to form their own individual opinion.

Yeah, we're all pissed. About different things. You had every right to write that rant, and everyone who was offended had a right to be as well. Broad strokes are never wise, but you knew that and did your best to diffuse it as you let loose.

One thing I will slam your generation about specifically (you've taken care of what there is to slam for older generations), which ties into what I feel is the primary issue: control of our media and the attempt to dumb down America.

One name sums it up for me, and hopefully everyone will understand: Paris Hilton. You personally probably have no interest in her and her ilk, but there are a shitload of younger people who have bought into this garbage - online and off - allowing the media to continue to spew fluff shit to distract us from the real news.

It's mainly young people online, yet the bulk of online activity is Facebook and social networking. There is real value there and great potential to have an awakening and do wonderful things, but do you feel the vast majority of young people are viewing it that way?

I know my criticism there is unfair, as there are people of all ages who have been frivolous and allowed themselves to be controlled for many decades now.

Like most here, I have a child...a teenager...and I try to instill individual thinking and not buying into crap as being what is valuable, even though that's all we see around us. Trying to have the selection of the next President of the United States and the debates leading up to this compete with America's Next Top Model, American Idol, etc., is a real challenge. Apples and oranges to most of us, granted, but sadly no contest to most under 30. You gotta admit that.

The people over 30 are watching something else equally useless rather than tune into the debates.

I've always said I give Obama much credit for waking up the youth and engaging them in the process. No criticism from me about that. Once the populace is awakened, hopefully whoever is chosen will have their feet held to the fire to COME THROUGH on what they've said as they've campaigned for this job.

One thing about the younger generation's experience IN GENERAL which is in play here - and which is very much the fault of the parents and society at large - is the LACK OF CONSEQUENCES. We see it in the Bush administration, in the Paris Hilton's of the world, and in our family and friends. In general, people are getting away with behavior that those of us over 40 would NEVER have gotten away with. Not your fault at all. Maybe the older people raising young ones are compensating for the shitty world their kids are inheriting.

I don't know.

All I know is that for me personally I have always fought the good fight, with the ultimate goal of unity once those who have wrecked our country and our world have been held accountable and safeguards have been put in place so it NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. That's my priority, and I share my thoughts and actions regularly with my daughter so she understands my thought process. Even if she doesn't always agree with me, she sees that I look at all sides, research all sides, and come to my own non-robotic conclusion. I also continue to keep an open mind and continue to learn every step of the way rather than put blinders on once I think I understand a situation or a person.

Now, I must get back to work. I'm sure a lot of people are getting things off their chest in your thread.


:)

Good luck to you and everyone. We need it.

[JPZenger]

87. Obama Same Age As Clinton When Elected

When Obama takes office, he will be 47. Bill Clinton was 46 when he was elected. Obama will be older than John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy when they ran for President.

[DUyellow]

88. I feel the same way.

[krabigirl]

93. Eh, I'm in my 30s, and I think I was a born cynic. But, passion is good. However..

I respect what those before me have done, especially for the women's movement! So many women my age and younger, mainly, take it for granted and hate the word feminism. It makes me sad.

And I worked on the 2004 campaigns of Dean, then Edwards, and then Kerry. I was usually the youngest one there. Most people passionately helping were at least 40, if not 50. They worked their butts off, too, by the way. Many young people I knew either didn't care, or voted for Bush again. So, please, don't blame our elders. Many of them had your passion once, and many still do.

But yeah, I've always been cynical, even as a little kid. I think it's a personality trait.

[lwcon]

95. I'll just crawl into the Soylent Green hopper

And good luck with that change.
___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

[NMMNG]

126. ......

:spray:

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. No kidding. If you never read history, anything looks like change. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

97. "Young wolves, show us your teeth." - John Steinbeck

When you try to make a revolution that fights the system, as we did, instead of perpetuating it, get back to me.

[PassingFair]

98. Don't let these geezers tamp you down, Meldread.

You're instincts are DEAD-ON.

Here is a little quote for you:

I'd rather vote for something I want and not get it than vote for something I don't want, and get it.
--Eugene V. Debs

If you didn't learn about Mr. Debs in school,
look up his Wiki entry.

Keep fighting the good fight, Meldread...

I salute you!

:yourock:

[lwcon]

100. Oh, and calling us "big nose" was a nice touch, BTW

Don't you love the smell of Unity in the morning?

As someone from m-m-my generation once said meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Pete has a big nose, too, the bastard.

___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

[zulchzulu]

101. Nice OP. I do want to mention that I've met many Obama supporters of all ages

Support for Obama is not an "age" thing. I've met and worked with Obama supporters ranging from 17 to 87. All races, creeds, lifestyles, backgrounds...

[WinkyDink]

103. As Alexander Pope once said, in his "Essay on Criticism":

"We think our Fathers Fools, so wise we grow;
Our wiser Sons, no doubt, will think us so."

Now THAT was a smart 23-year-old.

[Maven]

104. Again, judgment is a product of experience combined with other qualities.

It's not a dichotomy.

And your failure to recognize that, my dear, shows your inexperience--or perhaps a lack of introspection. Why wouldn't you value the opinions of people who have seen a lot more life than you have?

As an aside: You voted for Nader in 2000, and now you wish us to trust your judgment? How did that experience work out for you?

[Auntie Bush]

106. As soon as you said that you gave your support to Ralph Nader."

I lost interest in your OP.. Maybe I'll finish later. But that single comment plus all the mentioned Clinton sex talk with none of his accomplishments mentioned... I knew I wasn't reading honest or unbiased opinion or comment. ANYONE who would vote for Nader when it was so imperative for our democracy and out nation for us to win...isn't a
very intelligent thinker. So my apologies for not finishing your post.

[cascadiance]

109. This isn't about people like me being "over 45", it is about running an *open* campaign...

Yes, I am supporting Obama. Do I want to toss the dice? Hell yes. It is not much of a gamble. I know what I have to lose and what I have to gain. It is an election of more of the same or change. I have elected change. I am embracing change, and yes that means the sun is setting on your era. The past is gone. I am stepping up to pick up the pieces of everything you've so carelessly shattered and crushed.

The problem is that with many of us getting older, we have seen how over the years, many of us have been taken in by campaigns that have veiled promises, and have been disappointed when many candidates of the past didn't deliver what we THOUGHT was going to be delivered from them. We listened to "movements of a newer generation", "election for change", etc. and in many cases weren't rewarded when "tossing the dice" as you admit you are doing now. Change can be good or bad. It depends on WHAT is being change, by WHO, and for what purpose. You simply CANNOT ignore the details. Those that campaign on "change" are obligated, make that required, to explain what they mean by "change".

Yes, I think most of us agree that what we have now in the status quo is pretty horrible and we do need "change" from it. The question is change in what areas. Unless you are specific, the most harmful part of the status quo will still persist. There are still many strong parts of the status quo, and it has NOTHING to do with the age of the status quo's participants, that will resist change when it rewards they themselves, damn how it rewards anyone else.

What we need is people taking on the problematic parts of the status quo head on, and know when there's a time when we shouldn't compromise with these entrenched parts of the status quo, who will try everything in the book to keep those critical pieces of the status quo in place (no matter who they are sounding like they are favoring).

We are talking about taking down the corporatist class. Pure and simple. They are the status quo that is resisting change. They are trying to posit change as changes in areas that don't confront their hold of power in the status quo (aka social issues like Roe v. Wade and gay marriage, etc.). Change in those areas is "safe" for them, whereas someone that confronts them head on with the roots of their power with things like support for impeachment, true campaign finance reform, taking down so-called "rights of corporate personhood" need to be dealt with before much constructive and meaningful changes can be made elsewhere.

There are many of us who've been a part of this battle to prevent what has been destroyed in the past, and have lost many battles. It is likely because there isn't the same active spirit of the 60's that there is now. There were mistakes made in those days too, like the infatuation with drugs, etc., but many of that generation have learned from those mistakes and have focused on the more important parts of "change" from then. Then again there were many that were a part of the 60's movement too that were just in it because it was the "popular" thing to do in those days, and have since learned nothing from that experience and have become a part of the problematic status quo. You need to find those from the past that have done "times of change" in the past that have been through the battles and the wars and have learned where the benefits and the pitfalls are.

Don't fall in to the "Don't trust anyone over 30" mind set of today that I think some of the Obama mind set are preaching here. This isn't about a "generation" of change. Some of the most active folk out there and the most helpful are those that are even 10 years my senior. They should be as much a part of this time of change as anyone.

The difference is, they want someone to answer WHAT they are going to change, and HOW that will help America and HOW are we going to get there. Compromise isn't always going to be the solution. Especially if one doesn't state up front where one wants to have others compromise towards.

You have a lot of good observations in the past and have made many good choices too. But please don't make this an "age" thing. John Edwards understands what many of us feel. Why a movement needs to have a soul and needs to have a STRONG voice as to what we want. I'm not necessarily convinced that Edwards can win. I do see the numbers here. But I do think Obama would be well served by listening to how John Edwards appeals to us, and understanding that being a movement for "change" needs specificity that currently his movement lacks.

This isn't about being dogmatic to the point of being divisive towards those who wouldn't agree with you. It is about examining closely the issues on how they affect all Americans (such as the 5% or less of the corporatists looking to inflict their will over the other 95% of us), and figuring out what issues REALLY should be universally held stances by a majority of Americans. There are ways to speak to those Americans past the party partisan blinders, etc. for this kind of change. I think Obama has that potential message coming through in his campaign. But I'm still not seeing some of the real hard core issues being spoken strongly about just yet. Those that would challenge the power structure in place now. Those that if he did would show that he's REALLY for change for US, and not just about veiling a message of "change" but maintaing the status quo by not confronting it directly. Edwards has begun to understand that this election and is speaking to us strongly on those issues. Of course the status quo will try to dismiss his stances as being "combative", and many will be taken in, just as you acknowledge many of us were taken in by the status quo claiming that Al Gore was "stiff", etc. that helped keep people away from him too. I'm still hoping that Obama will understand this is about issue specifics and will move towards those that will reach beyond traditional partisan blinders and come forth more strongly on them. That is the way coalitions are built that will win!

[Joe Fields]

110. Oh Jeeze...not this shit again.

[PsN2Wind]

112. Just as some that would not vote

for a candidate that interjects racism into the campaign and as others that would not vote for a candidate that interjects sexism into the campaign, I will not vote for a candidate that has chosen to interject ageism into his campaign.

[hayu_lol]

114. Youngsters tend to care a lot about politics when they discovered that...

they were in danger of being drafted.

member of the 'silent generation.'

[Sir Jeffrey]

115. I am 29, and I understand where you're coming from...

but most of the "old" people on this site are not responsible for the way things are today. That responsibility would be with three groups:

1. Republicans/conservative Democrats (i.e. the Reagan coalition) and their triangulating partners in crime

2. uninformed moderates/independents who vote based on stupid shit like whether the candidate looks nice or has nice hair.

3. the vast majority of the public who completely tune out and don't vote

It is the fault of group 1 for advancing a neo-fascist agenda for the past 30 years (triangulation advances neo-fascism a bit slower than it would otherwise, but still advances it). It is the fault of group 2 for being misinformed vociferous supporters of bullshit. It is the fault of group 3 for not sparing an hour out of the year to get off the couch and vote.

Being part of a progressive agenda is inevitably going to frustrate true believers because political systems are inherently designed to stifle change. It is so much easier to just let things keep on because we DO have a system that works to some degree.

However, there is a lot of good that has come about from progressive action of the "old folks" in our lifetimes, even though at times it does not seem that way. And even though I feel what you are saying at times, keep your perspective. Obama comes from the older generation, and he has a lot of support now among the "old folks". And when he wins the nomination, he will get even more support among those groups. All we whippersnappers can do is keep at it, because in the end we ARE his base of support and he stands no chance unless we show up and demand to be heard. And if some Boomer is giving you shit, it is because they are afraid that we are mobilized, energized, and SHOWING UP. So keep at it. We've got the right people frightened, apparently.

[goodgd_yall]

116. Flamebait n/t

[mudesi]

117. Kick. (nm)

[David Zephyr]

118. Enthusiastic Kick!

I feel better that you got it off your chest because I got to read your comments.

By the way, I'm an older, life-long activist nearing 60 and I support Barack Obama.

Obama makes me see the America I love again.

Edit: To recommend. K&R.

[grasswire]

119. Here is your flaw

You fell in love with Howard Dean. You fell in love with Al Gore. You fell in love with Obama. That's what you have said, above.

And this limns the exact criticism many have of Obama supporters. They -- you -- have a crush going on.

And what is the most true component of a crush? Overlooking the flaws of the object. Shakespeare said it best: "With devotion's true visage, we do sugar o'er the devil himself."

If you are the future of this country, I want you to be clear eyed. I want you to be sober. I want you to be most critical of the one you MOST support.

You need to be hard on Obama now. You need to demand explanations and details from him now. You need to do the job that the press isn't doing, now.

Because if you don't vet him now and toughen him up, the GOP and the press will not only take him down, but damage this country in unimaginable ways for decades to come.

So calm your trembling heart, stop thinking that a media creation is reality, stop thinking of your generation as special, stop climbing that stairway to paradise, and get busy defining your candidate in real terms, in real words. Not "change" and "hope." Real words.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

177. Exactly, grasswire

Both Howard Dean and Barack Obama attracted large numbers of admirers (not all of them youthful) who seem more like rock star fans than thoughtful analyzers of the politcal scene. Both were eager for "change," definitely something that this country needs, but a close look at the platforms of both candidates revealed that the "change" they sought was about twenty-five cents worth, when the country needs more like a dollar.

I'm not telling you whom to support. Since DK dropped out, I'll probably vote for Edwards on Super Tuesday, because he talks about some of the same issues as DK, but it won't be an enthusiastic vote.

I see ALL the remaining candidates as timid and overly-cautious in a way that the Republicans never have been. The analogy I've used is that the Republicans are driving the country over a cliff at 60 mph. None of the Dem candidates want to do more than slow the country down to 30 or 40 mph, when what we need is a sharp turn to avoid the cliff entirely.

As for the generational thing, I did notice a lot of high school students in anti-war marches at the beginning of the invasion of Iraq. So maybe Generation Y will have the social conscience and sense of activism that has been sorely missing in Generation X, the generation that I taught as a college professor, a generation that seemed largely lacking in intellectual curiosity or awareness of activism.

[joeybee12]

121. In 1992, young people went head over heels over Clinton...

...he represented change, and he got a lot done. I realize you have passion, but it's with a lot of naivete--what you have said will be said 20 years from now about your generation.

[Capn Sunshine]

123. Some boomers have become their parents

Others, like me, have NOT. I'm a member of my state's Democratic Central Committee, I've worked for the party for over 30 years. I'm a boomer, and I've been around long enough to take up the progressive cause because frankly, I got tired of waiting for the young people to.

I have supported Barack Obama since we got together the exploratory committee. He's the real deal. This doesn't involve emotions. It involves bringing a Democratic candidate to the table who can create new politics that are inclusive and not exclusive. Some of us recognize we need to do things differently if we hope to get more voters to turn out. The Hillary wing of the party, they are convinced that red vs blue and get the tiny minority in the middle is the way to go. The progressives in the party know that method is so 90s. And it's OVER.

THIS is the main reason the youth support Obama; he's the first candidate to articulate this viewpoint, that he's tired of divisive politics and wants to run on a new message.

You'll note, many here are resistant to this notion. This is because they relish the battle. They want revenge and they want a pound of flesh.

Note the responses to this post young jedi and you'll see that is true.

Just remember that not all of any group is inclined one way or the other.
Some get it, some don't.

[weldon berger]

124. I may be dead in 21 years; could you apologize now instead?

Here's what's going to happen. Whichever Democrat gets elected, should that actually happen, will wind up keeping tens of thousands of troops in Iraq because otherwise, the Iraqi government will collapse and he or she won't want to spend the rest of his or her life as the punchline to "Who lost Iraq?" So we might save a few billion, but not enough to get defense spending back under a half-trillion annually. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is going completely to shit and he or she will feel compelled to shore up that sorry situation with whatever troops can be spared from Iraq, thereby indefinitely delaying the inevitable collapse of that US puppet regime and ensuring our long-term, heavy military presence. Meanwhile meanwhile, since both Obama and Clinton support substantial increases in the size of the Army and Marines and we will clearly not have enough troops to meet demand, we'll find ourselves spending an extra $100 billion or more to ramp them up and then another $30 billion or more annually to pay for the increase.

At this point, we'll be spending as much, if not more, on our little adventures as we are now. On top of that we'll be in a recession for a while, so tax increases won't be looking too good, and president Obama will regretfully realize that not only can't he end our wars, he can't pay for any of those goodies he promised even if Senate Republicans weren't filibustering every single god-damned piece of even modestly progressive legislation he sends to Congress.

And the cryogenically preserved Chuck Hagel sweeps to victory in 2012 on the anti-war platform.

Speaking of progressive: Obama isn't, and neither is Clinton. Their health care plans aren't much different than Dick Nixon's, and their foreign policy platforms are distinguishable from Bush's primarily in the presumption that someone sane will be implementing them.

Progressive suggests someone like Henry Wallace, who ran for president on a platform including an end to segregation and the implementation of universal government-funded health care in 19fricken48.

Progressive suggests someone like Republican Robert La Follette, who, despite having been thoroughly demonized as a traitor for his opposition to US participation in World War I, got almost 20% of the vote in 1924 campaigning on a Progressive Party platform that advocated "complete protection of the right of farmers and industrial workers to organize, bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and conduct without hindrance cooperative enterprises", and called for an end to "the mercenary system of foreign policy under recent administrations in the interests of financial imperialists, oil monopolies and international bankers, which has at times degraded our State Department from its high service as a strong and kindly intermediary of defenseless governments to a trading outpost for those interests and concessionseekers engaged in the exploitations of weaker nations, as contrary to the will of the American people, destructive of domestic development and provocative of war."

Both of those items still sound pretty good, but don't look for president Obama to usher in the new day. He couldn't if he wanted to, and he doesn't want to.

Peace, kid ...

[NMMNG]

125. I don't quite fit into your "geezer" age range but I'll reply anyway

Where do you get off calling anybody arrogant? Your OP was one of the most arrogant pieces of condescending tripe I've read in a long while. You have utterly discounted the sacrifices and accomplishments of everybody who has come before you. You claim you want to be taken seriously and be given respect but you fail to offer the same courtesy to others.

You have no idea what other peoples' lives are like. You don't know what they've done or not done. You have no right to make broad-brush accusations about an entire age group as you have. Otherwise you open yourself up to the same--and you may not like the results.

[jillan]

128. Wtf? My generation was getting beat up by cops for marching in the streets

for civil rights, and against the VietNam War.
People in my generation got killed for equality at Kent State.
My generation embraced peace and love and rock 'n' roll.

When I go to a protest march against this war, or to a candlelight vigil - the majority of people there are middle-aged + .

So don't give me this crap that we didn't do enough.

Being a political activist is a bit more than just supporting Obama.

[bvar22]

129. Where were "you" when "we" were marching & protesting ....

against the Invasion of Iraq?
The marches and protests I attended looked like Woodstock Reunions.
Very little interest among those under 45.


NOW you come along and support a Corporate Sponsored "Establishment" candidate, and HOPE for change.

Good Luck with that "hope for change" thing.

You would do better by following the $MONEY$, but you'll learn in time.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[VotesForWomen]

130. listen kid, we've *been* you, we know what you're thinking, but we also understand a little more

about the real world than you do. fact #1: if obama was half the revolutionary you think is, the powers that control these things would never have let him get as far as he has. and if you don't think there are any 'invisible hands' working behind the scenes, you are naive indeed. why do you think edwards has faced a virtual media blackout, as has kucinich, etc.? anyone *truly* revolutionary and threatening to the power structure isn't getting anywhere near the presidency in 2008 or any time in the near future. you are young enough not to have seen this pattern play it self out many many times before; we're not. fact#2: lofty, vague, idealistic, emotion-laden political rhetoric is tool #1 in the inspiring politician's bag of tricks. it's just slightly more believable when it comes from a 'fresh faced blank slate' like obama than when it comes from a politician who's been around a while. it is nevertheless a tool and a trick. see fact #1 again; there will be no revolutionary changes under an obama presidency because the true holders of power will not allow it. obama knows this, but he's counting on you not knowing it.

[MXrider]

175. Right on!

[Hatchling]

132. Generalize much?

If you youngin's had come out in these same droves in 2000 or 2004 we wouldn't be in this mess. We "old fogies" were voting and campaigning our hearts out to stop it. Where were you? Oh, that's right, voting for Nader. Gee, thanks, kid.

[troubleinwinter]

133. Ageism, Jeunism, Bigotry and Stereotyping are not progressive.

• Ageism is stereotyping and prejudice against individuals or groups because of their age.
  
• Jeunism is the tendency to prefer young people over older people.
  
• Bigotry is attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.
  
• Stereotyping is to typecast, define, categorize, and pigeonhole; often with negative connotations.

If you are 25, we can stretch and pretend that you've been an adult for 7 years. Perhaps 10% of your grownup years.

Presumably along the way, over the next 90% of your adulthood, you'll gain some insight and experience. Perhaps you'll toughen and gentle as a result of desperate hardship. Perhaps you'll learn to hold your tongue instead of blathering and blurting useless insults and accusations at people on a progressive board of "arrogance and stupidity". You may even learn courtesy.

Perhaps you'll even learn something about the history of those of us who are still around who fought in the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, the women's rights movement. Perhaps you'll learn something about the cultural changes brought in the 60s, and maybe even about your grandfathers and grandmothers who experienced the Depression and WWII.

And hopefully, you'll learn that ageism, jeunism, bigotry, and stereotyping are not progressive and not valuable.

To me, you sound like a candidate for The Young Republicans, except that you select elders to marginalize and dismiss rather than the poor or people of color.

Do check in when you're 55, 63, 72, 81 and let us know if experience made you wiser and more committed or if you spent your entire life "fucking things up", as you feel we have done. What makes your generation so magical and perfect (while others only "fucked up")?

"This message is not a slam on those who are old. It is a slam on all of those who look down their noses at my generation, who are angry that we - those who have the most to lose - want a voice."

Did you forget (or did you simply not know) that is was those "over 45" who fought and paid dearly for the Voting Rights Act? It's easy, just look it up on the internet... there's no excuse for ignorance in this 'day and age'.

My choice is not for Obama. But securing peoples' right to have a voice and vote for their choice was the point of the Voting Rights Act, right?

While The Voting Rights Act was an advancement, apparently we didn't get far enough in fighting ageism and bigotry. There's a torch you could take up from those of us who "fucked up".

Here's a group you mightbe interested in (I joined in 1983)- Elders and young working together for progessive causes:

The Gray Panthers

WHO WE ARE

We are the risk-takers; we are the innovators; we are the developers of new models. We are trying the future on for size. That is our role."
-Maggie Kuhn, Founder

MISSION

Work for social and economic justice and peace for all people.

VISION

Create a humane society that puts the needs of people over profits, responsibility over power, and democracy over institutions.

VALUES

Honoring Maturity: The concept of aging takes into account an individuals growth during their entire life span, from birth to death in personal development, social involvement, and self fulfillment.

Unifying the Generations: Recognition that generations are formed by different histories and cultures, but a common respect holds them together.

Active Engagement: Civic participation and responsibility are fundamental to achieving goals of social and economic justice.

Participatory Democracy: The Gray Panthers belongs to its members. The members define the organization's values, purpose, and the issues in which we place collective energy.

http://graypanthers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=45


Maggie Kuhn, Founder of Gray Panthers

"We are the risk-takers; we are the innovators; we are the developers of new models. We are trying the future on for size. That is our role." ~Maggie Kuhn

Here's what some of those old fuck-ups are doing now:

HEALTH CARE
Gray Panthers strongly supports public action to:

Create and fund a single-payer, nonprofit and universal health care system.

Regulate Health Maintenance Organizations comprehensively, for the protection of patients and health care providers.

Legislate a Patient’s Bill of Rights.

Provide funding for scientifically-based sex education and reproductive health care.

Legalize medical marijuana.

Remove barriers to stem cell research.

Give health care consumers a seat at the table in setting Federal health research priorities.

Return to the public a proper share of pharmaceutical profits, reflecting public investment in basic medical and health research.

Repeal any privatization of Medicare and the Part D prescription drug program, replacing it with gap-free coverage under Medicare at fair and affordable prices.

End constraints on government negotiation for lower prescription drug prices and on importation of foreign-made pharmaceuticals.

FAMILY SECURITY
Gray Panthers calls on the U.S. President and Congress to:

Oppose all efforts to limit or reduce Social Security Programs.

Prevent shortfalls to the Social Security system without destructive changes.

Expand housing opportunities for low income persons.

Undo the damage done by ‘welfare reform’ and restore benefits to all in need.

Provide access to living-wage jobs, job training and related rights.

Re-authorize and boost funding for the Older Americans Act.

Support utility subsidies for low-income persons.

Strive for consumer-oriented utility regulation and for public ownership of utilities.

Mandate user-input into community development, transportation, accessibility and public services.

PEACE AND COMMUNITY SAFETY
Gray Panthers calls on the President and Congress to:

Permanently end nuclear testing and nuclear proliferation.

Normalize US-Cuban relations.

Rebuild Iraq through direct aid, the United Nations and Non-government organizations.

Take the lead in stopping genocide in Darfur and elsewhere.

Ban land mines and work to deactivate and remove them.

Permanently ban assault weapons and limit non-hunting gun traffic.

Resolve the status of detainees in the “War on Terror” as required by the Constitution and the Declaration of Human Rights;
Pay United Nations dues in full and on time.

Work toward a Cabinet-level Department of Peace.

Charter an independent investigation of the Military-Industrial Complex.

Support those who oppose the war in Iraq.

Oppose the Death Penalty


POLITICAL INTEGRITY AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
Gray Panthers agrees to:

Support campaign and voting reform measures.

Support programs to increase voter participation.

Work for abolition of the Electoral College.

Demand enforcement of anti-trust laws.

Demand break-up of media conglomerates.

Oppose handing over of public lands and resources for private gain.

Morally support Gray Panthers who engage in civil disobedience for Gray Panther principles.

EDUCATION
Gray Panthers strongly supports life-long public education as it:

Fights for adequate Federal, State and local public school funding.

Opposes tax-funded voucher programs.

Views the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 critically.

Sees higher education as a necessity and a right.


JOBS AND WORKERS RIGHTS
Gray Panthers supports the rights of workers and:

Affirms the rights of workers everywhere to organize and bargain for wages and working condition.

Is an ally of labor unions.

Endorses full-employment legislation and work programs.
Supports living wage legislation.

Works with those fighting exploitative sweatshop conditions here and abroad.
Opposes NAFTA, destructive World Bank, IMF and WTO policies, and similar arrangements to the extent that they harm workers rights, the environment, and national sovereignty.

ENVIRONMENT
Gray Panthers allies with environmental activists and calls for public and private action to:

Protect land, sea and air resources.
Move toward environmental sustainability in all economic activity.
Block creation of new nuclear and radiological hazards.
Solve the problems of past, present and future nuclear waste.
Protect wilderness, old-growth forests and other natural habitats.
Encourage development and use of renewable energy sources.

IMMIGRATION
Gray Panthers are offended by demagoguery on immigration issues. Valid border security concerns and humanitarian concerns are both swept away when fear, rather than principle, dominates national debate. We will not yield silently to the politics of fear, racism, class warfare and divisiveness. Therefore, Gray Panthers only supports changes in immigration law, policies and practices that:

Are consistent with human rights as expressed in the United States founding documents and in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; Affirm the rights of all persons, whether native born or immigrant, to the protections afforded by the Constitution, including rights to due process of law and rights of equal access to public services and resources; Implement humanitarian immigration policies which admit refugees from war, natural disasters and persecution, and which provide for the reunion of family members.

Are blind as to ethnicity, race, creed and national origin, including especially those policies and practices which determine how immigrants are treated at our borders.

Require dignified working conditions and a living wage for all workers, regardless of their legal standing, citizenship or temporary status in the workforce.

In addition, we call for training and public education to ease assimilation of immigrants and to promote inter-cultural understanding.

Gray Panthers will monitor and support legislation which includes actions consistent with these principles.

NO WAR IN IRAN
Right now, this administration is planning an attack on Iran. It is CRITICAL that you contact your legislators and demand they put a stop to this NOW!

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. I'm 46 and I'll never forgive myself for bringing you Brittney Spears, Jackass and reality tv.

Oh, wait...

Nevermind.

[MichiganVote]

145. LOL!!! (Brrrrrrother, glad I didn't raise this one)

[Cronus Protagonist]

140. Why do you think Obama is kicking ass with the 30 and under crowd?

You've asked yourself: Why do you think Obama is kicking ass with the 30 and under crowd? Is it because he's hip? Is it because he's a cool new fad? Is he just so groovy that we can't control ourselves?

No, I see quite clrealy that the under 30 crowd has not had the experience of someone like Obama, yet. They like him because he's cute, fuckable, says what they want to hear and so on.

That, however, is no reason for me to support him in the primary. I want to win in the general election and all Obama will be good for then is carrying water to the quarterback during the huddle.

[MichiganVote]

144. I just so fucking sorry for all that tax money that's been paid into student loans for you poor

things, how could we have been so stupid. I for one never realized I was contributing to ageless despair. That Title VIIII thing...it was a horrible, horrible thing to do to you poor little children. And let's not forget the mistakes we made spanking your tight Gap covered arses. Yep, we should go to hell for that. God knows we would have done more if not for the likes of the therapists we've been paying to send your generation to.

So yeah, its a hell of a deal you young people have received. We really should have known better than to have paid for kids, adults and seniors with disabilities. Like they need a damn thing. And what about the homeless, why the hell should we help them when all you youngsters want is a free mortgage that Mom and Dad sign up for.

If we had known that all you wanted was a speech that inspired you we would have given it to you. All that nagging to succeed, progress, grow------up!

But that's alright because we should all just surrender our needs to you dear yinglings. Afterall, you need to be inspired to be a citizen. You need hope and change and the future. You need a vacation!!!

All we needed was a good car, a job and enough money to eat and pay taxes.

[puebloknot]

149. I'm an old coot who is considerably over 45, with a daughter who is...

...30ish. We both agree that we'd like to see some fresh young blood in this campaign. My daughter, a young white woman, says she's tired of "old, doughy white men" running the country, and the world! Agreed, *experience* is sometimes just a place to get stuck. Youthful passion does a lot to drive issues, as long as it's grounded in a level of maturity.

My question to any candidate, of any age, color, or gender is: What are you going to do to hold a criminal administration accountable -- now and into the future. What are you going to do about restoring habeus and the soiled reputation of America in the world? How, specifically, will you stand up against the corporations that control every facet of our "democracy"? How will you do that when you are in debt to those same corporations for large campaign contributions? What will you do, and when will you do it, to clean up our scandalous election situation?

Genuine experience does matter: "Those who forget the past are bound to repeat it." There are a great many parallels playing out right before our eyes between our current political situation and that which existed in Germany in the 1930s. People under 45 were very much a part of that picture -- some through having thought things through (or so they felt), others because they got caught up in the massive energy being propagated through the Nuremberg rallies. In times of stress, it's very human to want to enjoy the comfort of belonging to something BIG!

With great sincerity, I hope that your generation will improve greatly on ours. Just know that you may see things a bit differently when you are well over 45, gave it your best shot, and still see a flawed world. No human being is immune from the zeitgeist of his own time. None escape the shadow of collective guilt, if they are honest. And do you really think that the ruining of our country (I agree with your anger over that) took place without the ardent support of a lot of people who are under 45?

If you need any help shaking this nation to its very foundation, don't forget to invite some of your most enthusiastic supporters -- those of us who are over 45! :)

L'Chaim! (I'm not Jewish, but "To Life" has a nice ring to it!)

[Two Americas]

150. K and R from an old fart

Excellent post. You describe how things look from your generation very well, and your insights are powerful and valuable.

I support Edwards, but for all I know you could be right when you say that Obama "will cause a shift in our electorate" and I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say "this recovery isn't just from the Bush years. No, it's from the Clinton years too."

All I would ask is that you don't forget that some here fought our entire lives to prevent this mess that has been left to you. You cannot imagine how lonely it was all of those years, and how many sacrifices some of us had to make. But you would be correct to think that most from our generation sold out long ago, and are hypocritical and self-centered.

[Seabiscuit]

152. Good grief! I'll be 70 before I finish wading through that OP.

[DemBones DemBones]

156. This thread is nothing but shit.

Remember the guy who used to always say that? We need him back.

[NashVegas]

154. I'm Glad You Feel Better

I was going to write out a reasoned response, but several people in this thread have perfectly summed many if not most of my thoughts already.

[chieftain]

155. " Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command,

stay out of the new one if you can't lend a hand".
I'm 61. I worked for Jack, Bobby and George McGovern. I had my heart and spirit broken when JFK, RFK and MLK were taken from us. After '72 I worked and contributed to each Democratic candidate for the presidency but knew I was settling for someone I thought could get elected as opposed to someone who could lead the country to the ideals it espouses but so seldom lives up to. Barack Obama touches something in me which has lain dormant for decades. All the Clinton cynics can belittle this reaction as starry eyed gullibility. I have concerns whether Barack is up to the fight to win the general election. But I would never forgive myself if I ignored the possibilities that this man presents us as a nation. Jack Kennedy was not the most liberal candidate in the 1960 election but he was an inspiring and transformational figure. I truly believe that Obama is as well. So for those of you Clinton supporters who indulge in snark and untruths, no one is paying attention to you. Not an old-timer like me and certainly not young people who are so effectively and eloquently represented in the OP.

[bpeale]

159. the under 30 crowd is largely uneducated and uninformed and don't want to be either

that is my experience here not a bash

[tomp]

160. you're dead wrong about obama.

he ain't gonna change shit, except for the worse. you'll see.

kucinich, the only candidate worth the effort, is out now. we've already lost.

your holier-than-thou, grandiose, narcissistic, divisive, and just plain disrespectful post is testimony to the fact that you don't have to be young to be naive but it doesn't hurt.

[truedelphi]

161. I could only get halfway through your post because U seem to feel

That everyone over 45 shares a brain with the main media.

Many people don't share a connection with what the main media is saying on a day to day basis. Many of those people don't even bother to vote.

I have not believed the main media since about 1985. In fact my disbelief must have been earlier, because I remember at a party in the 1970's someone asking me if I had believed in Cronkite, and I said, "He as better than the others but still no dice."

I have spent years of my life educating myself on every issue. I am still eager to learn. I feel disheartened that you think everyone over 45 is part of the same mentality.

That would be like my saying that everyone under 45 shares a brain. I know that's not true.

[femrap]

162. Holy Mother of God.....

I haven't read such self-centered, egocentric, male-entitled crap like that EVER. And now the widdle boy feels better...and he can blame everything on mommy and daddy. Why not put the blame where it belongs...the neocons who have masterfully manipulated the willfully ignorant (including you) people of this country.

Who owns the Media? Rich, white, ugly male Repugnants, right? Five of them own 80% of the entire Media. Now, why do you think this is a horse race between a woman and a black man....while the third candidate gets little to no press? WHY? Do you think they might just be manipulating you like they have been for years? These neocons are slick...they don't just manipulate the Evangelicals with gay sex and horrible women who want abortions.

Now they pit the YOUNG AGAINST THE OLD!! And you have bought it...every bit of it. Are you rich? I mean driving a paid for 2006 or newer BMW? Pulling in over $100,000/year and your parents are gonna leave a big pile of more green paper? If not, you should be listening to John Edwards. But you rather listen to what Murdoch, Redstone, and Zucker, and Immelt want you to hear....Unity, Change, Future....a lovely sermon aimed at the youthful and naive who are coming into their own and the buttons are there to be pushed. Obama is clever.

Have you looked at where your hero is getting his money? He is going to owe lots of Corporations favors. Obviously you haven't been around long enough to work for some of these GREEDY CORPORATIONS who chew you up and spit you out. You have no idea. NONE. You have no idea of the chemical crap they put in our water, our food, our fertilizers, our air...why so much asthma? Autism? Wars? Disease? Why? Cuz the Corporations get rich doing it. They want sick people. They love war. And they hate their employees cuz they hurt the bottom line. Edwards is the only one since FDR who is talking about stopping these Robber Barons from killing this nation and its working people. WAKE UP.

Last and MOST IMPORTANT.....DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK OBAMA, A BLACK MAN WHO ALL EVANGELICALS BELIEVE IS A MUSLIM (AND WILL NOT BELIEVE OTHERWISE) CAN BEAT THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE? Because if you care one fucking iota for this country, that is all you should want...WE CAN TAKE NO FURTHER CHANCES...WE MUST HAVE A DEMOCRAT ELECTED IN NOVEMBER. IF NOT, YOU WILL NOT MAKE IT TO THE OLD AGE OF 55...this country will die.

Start putting your country and your fellow citizens ahead of your little ego and your need to prove to yourself that you're an adult. Is Obama the best candidate to beat the republican? He's not.

And if you think Americans like CHANGE???? They don't. Just go study some history. Americans are historically known for 'staying the course.' Sure they may not like McCain or Romney or whoever...but I've seen MILLIONS OF THEM HOLD THEIR NOSE AND VOTE FOR STAY THE COURSE.

I really don't mean to insult you, but after reading that post which is so childish...I truly fear for our future. I am absolutely aghast at your selfishness and lack of care for this nation.

And I DON'T FEEL ANY BETTER after writing this. I shouldn't have to be writing this.

[eridani]

163. You do realize that you are now cheering for the old fart Zbigniew Brzezinski, right?

The fellow that thought arming Islamic whackjobs in Afghanistan with help from OBL was such a great idea. That's Obama's national security adviser.

[2Design]

164. so you voted for nadar and helped put bush in WH - that sounds like

smart thinking - we had seen what third party candidates did to the election before - so even though we might not have liked the dem or even if we did - we knew the republicans were crap and voting for the mostly likely candidate made sense - so myself - I see it as all the crazy wackos who believed the republican crap - I see more young wacko Faux xtains who blindly vote for repubs

then there were all the nadar voters - yeah that really help - NOT

not all those who are older are stupid enough to fall for nadar tricks and some say he might try to get in again - go figure -

[flyarm]

165. lets see i am over 45...

and i marched to stop the Vietnam war..i was at moratoriums in Washington and was teargassed..in fact i sat next to the Washington Monument.

I worked to get every dem Elected in my lifetime.

in 2004 i became an elected Dem Delegate in my state.

I marched in Washington and NY to stop this war..

I wrote a bi-weekly article for 2 years about what has been going on in this country educating people in my state..i am not a writer ..and it was very difficult for me to do..and i spent alot of time doing it..and had a large following..

i retired in 2002..after 33yrs of working for one of the airlines involved on 9/11 and have spent the last 7 years publically speaking about the lies of this administration ( i was not a public speaker )
I have spent each and every day since 9/11 trying to educate people.

I have worked with the Jersey Girls ..

and i have worked with Pilots for Truth and have gone head to head with several of the 9/11 commissioners.



i just spent 12 days in Iowa freezing my ass off knocking on doors..while Obama paid people to do the same..i was volunteer..and went on my own dime..and time and was even a co-captain for a caucus ..for Edwards.

I then flew home ..had a scheduled surgery and in less than a week went to South Carolina and kocked on doors 10-12 hours a day ..from Monday through this Saturday.


out of touch??????

oh please...stop.

fly

[incapsulated]

166. Now I know why some older people always hated "kids"

lol

It's all been said, I won't repeat it.

[bettyellen]

167. so you voted against Gore because he was boring- the last 7 years are YOUR FAULT KID...

you were repeatedly fooled by style over substance, seem completely ignorant about the clintons except for the blowjob....you showed as much good judgement as any repuke. and you're trying to school the old folks? LOL.
you're not even smart enough to apologise to us.
thanks for doing too little too late, kid.

[JanusAscending]

168. Sweetie.........you've said a mouthful !! Bravo!

What is it they say?...."out of the mouths of babes" This over the hill granny who loved JFK....loves Barack Obama. Like you, since I heard him speak at the '04 convention. Spread the word baby, we need a lot more like you in this world! FIRED UP !!

[krkaufman]

169. I'm not over 45, but feel compelled to point-out that you helped put Bush in office.

Blame others for your decision, if you want, but the choice in 2000 was obvious. There was a vast difference in the intellect, judgement, experience and abilities between Gore and Bush, and Nader was a transparent demagogue in constantly decrying that there was no difference.

Own your youthful mistake, but don't blame others. Molly, among others, made clear what we risked with a George W Bush Presidency.

[democrat2thecore]

170. White Male -48- here. Worked for McGov, Worked for Hart (more inside)

It started when I was 12! I did everything I possibly could over the decades (and so did many others). I have given and given and given to the Democratic cause. (Didn't care for that "older folks" part!)

GOBAMA!!!!!!!

Edit for spelling error.

[MXrider]

174. Ditto!!

[Helga Scow Stern]

171. A coalition of generations founded this country...

I was amazed to discover that...Hamilton and Jefferson were in their 20's and Ben Franklin, who was a royalist till he couldn't stand it anymore was an old fart of ripe boomer age.

Some of the conditions then are being repeated now. I think we are all in it for the long haul, regardless of who our candidate is. or of who wins. For all we know the fix is already in for Giuliani, with lots of manipulations in place through the media. We should be asking ourselves what will we do then? Instead of arguing over who avoided whose handshake, we need to try to figure out ways to respond to the strategy that is surely in place to keep the biggest racketeering outfit in history in power. I don't think they will let it slip gently into the sunset with McCain, Obama, Hillary, and certainly not Edwards. We need to keep supporting our candidates in a cordial way, but keep thinking two steps ahead. I think some of the polarization that is being orchestrated is precisely to knock the wind out of the sails of this powerful generation coming into voting age and older. I don't think it will work, because we won't let it.

[lostnotforgotten]

173. Hopes And Prayers Do Not Presidents Make

eom

[troubleinwinter]

176. After a 2,937 word post, you spent 18 whole minutes on this thread.

• "I did not know much about Howard Dean - it was love."
  
• "I fell in love with Al Gore."

Now you're in love with Obama. It is surely "love", because you admit it's "a gamble", and don't care... it's not important to you, because the problems facing us are "simple":

• "Do I want to toss the dice? Hell yes. It is not much of a gamble."
  
• "All of the knowledge and experience in the world does you no good if you cannot solve a simple problem."

It must be "love", because policy is not of much importance to you:

• "it isn't even about policy. That is secondary."

Evidently, it is not important to you to fight the wrong policies and actions by the republicans and neo-cons. Reach over the aisle and get your hand chewed off up to your neck, all in the belief that republicans will "act like adults.

• "(Obama) told me that I didn't have to fight with my enemies"
  
• "He painted a picture of America in which everyone was welcome, including me, and my enemies - where fighting was not necessary. He painted a picture of a place where adults could actually act like adults, and solve problems like adults."

Your entire screed is against those of us who have fought the GOP and neo-cons, and against continuing the fight. You propose to toss the dice, gamble, quit fighting, assume the criminals will act like adults.

The fact that you will not fight for your beliefs is quite evident in your failure to come into your own thread to discuss it with those who challenge you.

You are secure in your love for Obama, after your rejection of Gore for being "boring, stiff and uninspiring", but "Ralph inspired me" (you claim to have "judgement"?) And in this thread, you say you support Obama because "He inspired me. He told me that I didn't have to fight with my enemies", "change".

Your entire post is one of petulance. Petulance is not indicative of judgement. It is indicative of childish immaturity. One can be young or youthful but mature. You aint it.

You excuse your rudeness as having a "pet peeve". I haven't paid much attention to "pet peeves" since my high school yearbook came out several decades ago, and have never used it as an excuse for rude behavior. If I were to pick out "pet peeves", I guess they'd be rudeness, petulence, ageism, people who write off solutions to today's world-wide problems as "simple", and people who regard a presidential candidate's policies as "secondary", and a claim that we needn't fight for what we believe in.

Here's hoping that Obama's young supporters have thought things out more carefully than you appear to have.

And here's hoping that the next time you start a thread, you manage to exhibit some of that "judgement" you claim to have.

And I, for one, will continue to fight.

[marlakay]

178. I am 51 and not offended

I am for Obama also, mostly for Gore but he is not running. My daughter your age was the one who first got me to think about him. I loved that she actually cares about what is going on because of him.

They say a lot of older folks vote more conservative because they have more money or they don't like change. I can see that but in my life I have learned there are more important things than money and the democrats with money must believe like me.

Change is hard when you are older but sometimes we have to have change to shake things up and after Bush we really really need big time change.

I think the Clintons owe too much to too many people that nothing will change.

By the way my daughter was for Gore like me before we knew if he was running. The young respect him because he has the experience but is forward thinking and global warming is a big issue for both of us.