Whose brilliant idea was it to "punish" Florida and Michigan?

[Sterling]

Whose brilliant idea was it to "punish" Florida and Michigan?

Maybe this has already been discussed here but I have been very busy at work and have not seen anything yet. Why would the party do something that comes off as so arrogant and stupid. What was there to gain by potentially alienating voters in these two very important states? I don't really see why the voters of any state cannot decide when they would like to hold there primaries? Won't this work against us in the general election?

[medeak]

1. your friendly democratic party n/t

[MichiganVote]

2. Rules. Suspension followed by writing sentences, washing windows, chalkboards

[sfam]

3. Whoever it was deserves to be fired. So do the state Dem party officials

Talk about an insane fiasco - ugh.

Its amazing how well we've learned how to shoot ourselves in the foot. Thank God we only use a six-shooter, as it takes us a few minutes to reload, just prior to shooting our other foot that is...

[Marie26]

46. If there's a brokered convention

because of this... all hell could break loose. And it was totally preventable.

[sfam]

4. DUPE...please delete

Sorry

[TheUniverse]

5. An incredibly stupid decision especially considering those state'simportance in the general election

Its not wise to piss off voters in swing states.

[Levgreee]

6. The Florida Democrats

They could've moved their primary back to Feb. 5th, quite easily. That choice was ALWAYS theirs. They decided to be stubborn and force a change in the rules.

[JackORoses]

7. actually it was the Congresses of MI and FL that did this. no one else.

[zanne]

8. The rules are the rules.

NH has, by Democratic LAW, the first primary. If Michigan, Florida and others wanted to change that, they should have petitioned to have it changed immediately after the primaries of 2004 were over. They didn't. They waited until the last minute and tried to circumvent the law by moving the dates of their primaries before NH's scheduled primary. Therefore, to keep to the rules, NH had to move it's primary up to January 8. The Democratic National Committee, the keepers of the law, penalized Michigan and Floriday for trying to pull a fast one by denying them the right to have Dem. candidates campaign in their states or to gain delegates there.

If Michigan or Florida would like to be first in the nation, they have to do it the right way. I live in NH and I would gladly give another state the honors, since it is alot of work and people here get so many phone calls and knocks on the door, it borders harassment.

[Sterling]

10. Democratic LAW?

"Because they said so" seems to be the basis of your reasoning. I just fail to see an rational justification for why the voters of any state cannot chose the date of their own primary? Why does NH or Iowa have some sort of divine right to be first? Maybe the primary should be nation wide instead? It seems like arbitrary reasoning have lead to this situation and it is obvious that it was a terrible idea to try to "punish" the voters of any state by denying them there right to have a say in who is their president. Very un-democratic and just plain self destructive for the party.

[zanne]

19. Will you stop and think for a minute?

Geez. Trying to explain this to people is frustrating. The DNC makes the rules. (You could call in law, but only in the context of the Dem. party). NOW, try to hang in there. NH DOES NOT HAVE A DIVINE RIGHT TO BE FIRST. However, and this is the important part,THE RULES WOULD HAVE TO BE CHANGED IN ORDER TO MAKE ANOTHER STATE THE FIRST IN THE NATION PRIMARY STATE. NOW...Michigan and Florida did not go through the proper procedures to change the rules. (They should have started petitioning for a change right after the 2004 Primaries). They asked to have the rules changed TOO LATE, WITHOUT ENOUGH TIME TO HAVE COMMITTEES STUDYING THINGS AND VOTES TAKEN, so instead, THEY TRIED TO WIGGLE OUT OF PLAYING BY THE RULES BY SIMPLY MOVING THEIR PRIMARY DATES TO BE EARLIER THAN NH. NOT COOL. WRONG.
Michigan and Florida are being penalized because of what THEY DID. If they had gotten away with doing what they did, then any state could, at the last minute, decide to move their own state ahead of everybody else. In other words, IT WOULD BE CHAOS.

Now, if another state wants to change the rules and become first in the nation, they can start with the proper proceedings. It would take a long time, but that does not excuse states from just deciding on their own that they are going to be first in the nation. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

[Sterling]

23. Does not really seem worth taking voters rights to be heard away.

Also I don't really see the chaos factor here. These primaries went forward without any complication apparently other than the fact the party decided to cut off it's nose in spite of it's face. IMO it seems like the party is the one in the wrong here not the voters of very important swing states we should be trying to appeal to? BTW thanks for the incredibly unnecessary rude response. Seems to be a popular tactic these days with both the candidates and supporters. Not the kind of attitude that will help resolve any of the issues we face but I guess it is more important to feel special and more important than others than to actually solve anything?

[zanne]

31. PLEASE...TRY,,,TO...THINK!

OKAY. The next time around, what if, say, Ohio wants to go first and so does Missouri and so does California and so does New York....? When would we be starting the Democratic Primaries for the election of 2012? With these states trying to jump before the other in order to be the first in the nation, we'd be holding our first primary possibly years ahead of time! We wouldn't even have candidates yet! It has to be done by the rules to get it done right. I'm not against another state going first; in fact, at this point, I'd be happy to see that.

Now. I'm not trying to "feel special". It's just so frustrating when people don't even try to understand and start typing responses even before they've read the entire thread. Somebody asked the question and I, due to the fact that I live in NH and started reading about it from the start, know the answer. OKAY?

[Sterling]

35. I am perfectly capable of thinking.

Do you actually put yourself this far above others in your everyday life? It can't be a very effective way of communicating your ideas can it? While watching the news over the last few days I have seen many people comment that they believed this whole situation was silly and not helping the party. I don't think something is wrong with my thought process to reach this conclusion.

Maybe there is a better way of addressing the problem? Maybe a nation wide primary would be better? It could certainly not be worse than telling a whole lot of voters we don't care what they think. People are tired of being told there views are not important, especially after eight years of Bush. We should be trying everything we can to reverse that psychology.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

50. I appreciate your explanation.

It is quite clear, and definitely demonstrates the sequence of events that led to this -- and the resultant chaos that would ensue if MI and FL were allowed to circumvent the rules.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. Oh I get it now, let's punish the voters for the actions of their legislators.

How very democratic.

[zanne]

33. It's up to the voters to write their congressmen and stop them.

I didn't see any signs that that was happening. They should have raised a stink about their states trying to override the rules, but they didn't. There is a way to do it right, but Michigan and Florida chose not to do it right. Where were all you people when this was being discussed on DU before the primaries, anyway?

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. Write my congresscritters and stop them in a non-election year? Yeah, that works.

How would you have known IF FL citizens WERE writing their congresscritters? Would one of the congresscritters have told you? I call my congresscritters from time to time, and what does it get me? Dick, that's what.

[Irishonly]

57. They should not have agreed

This mess is the best argument for a national primary I have ever seen.

[Bright Eyes]

30. Exactly.

Now if Clinton were projected to lose Florida, you can be she'd be pushing to have them excluded.

[Auntie Bush]

9. Wasn't it Howard Dean's decision. Head of thee DNC. I hope I'm wrong because I love Howard Dean

and voted for him 4 times. I hope someone can tell me I'm wrong. Please explain if you know.

[zanne]

12. Yes. Howard Dean and the other Dems.

This is the Democratic Party we're talking about, friends. Not the Republicans. Michigan and Florida knew that what they were doing was wrong. If they had been allowed with moving up their primaries to replace NH as the first state in the nation Primary state, what would prevent other states from doing that any time they wanted to? How would that end--every state moving their Primary earlier and earlier until we had to have primaries two years or more ahead of time?

When you think about it, Michigan and Florida got what they deserved. If they want to replace NH now, they can petition for it and do it by the rules.

[Sterling]

20. Why do NH and Iowa have any "right" to be first?

Seems silly. There has to be a better way of working this out. And certainly there has to be a better way to deal with it from the parties perspective than disenfranchising a huge amount of voters and potentially alienating important swing state voters in the GE.

[zanne]

21. SEE THREAD #8. nt

[shugah]

58. yeah, MI and Fla deserve to be "punished"

will you say the same if voters in MI and FL decide that the democratic party "deserves" to be "punished" in november?

for years, and to no avail, Carl Levin and others have been working within the party to try to convince the DNC to change the rules (or LAWS, if you must). his efforts, and the efforts of others have been ignored and dismissed. hah! everyone is paying attention now, aren't they?

the crux of the biscuit - the DNC can go ahead and be all high and mighty and refuse to seat our delegates - the rules (i mean, the LAW) certainly allow for that. michigan broke the rules, they need to be punished. the thing is, all this high-handedness between the national party and the state party leaders doesn't resonate much with the actual voters. believe it or not, the vast majority of people in michigan don't read DU. what they do know is that their primary votes have never counted, and that Levin tried to make them count, and now our delegates don't count either. in the long run, it is the DNC, not the michigan state dem leaders that will bear the brunt of the MI voters outrage.

i hope the outrage doesn't spill over in to november. and i hope all the time and campaign $$ that the eventual nominee has to spend mending fences in MI is worth this DNC LAW that zanne and the DNC require. michigan is an important state for the dem nominee.

p.s. - i was fortunate enough to be able to vote for Kucinich in the MI primary. and i will re-state that because of that, i am able to proceed to the GE in a state of calmness and with a clear mind.

it will all work out.

[LandOLincoln]

18. Sorry, but it had to have been Dean--and it's gotta be one of the

more boneheaded moves ever.

It's true the state party heads acted badly as well, but good lord!--to alienate the voters in two of the most important states in the country in this crucial, crucial election cycle? Sheer madness. There has to have been a better way.

[sfam]

28. Dean helped us win 2006, but damn...how 'bout some diplomacy instead of thermonuclear-responses?

Truly, I don't get how the state dems and DNC didn't come together on this. Truly idiotic.

[Sterling]

38. I agree. People seem to wound up very tight these days.

From the politicians all the way down the line to the voters. No one seems to be thinking rationally these days. Just emotional. The primary emotion being anger. The course of action usually being aggression and destructive. We really need to get away from that method of dealing with each other. I know Bush has infuriated people over the last eight years but we can't fix what he and his sort have done with the same kind of tactics and thinking.


I have been way too busy to spend much time on DU for a while now. I think having a little distance from the process and the rhetoric has helped me gain some much needed perspective. It has certainly helped my blood pressure, lol. I think the forest for the trees analogy is appropriate for what I am seeing these days. I know people are trying very hard to correct the damage done over the last eight years. I respect almost everyone who takes the time to visit sites ike this and be involved in the process. I just think a lot of times people get too wrapped up in the drama and start doing more harm than good.

[sfam]

52. Great response. Agreed on all counts n/t

[Coexist]

25. No, Howard Dean tried to play lets make a deal - FDP wouldn't - good reading:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

[matcom]

11. basically?

Florida and Michigan

[Coexist]

14. correct.

[NashVegas]

13. It Was Self-Abuse

..

[Tatiana]

15. The legislatures of Florida and Michigan. n/t

[tammywammy]

16. Florida and Michigan legislatures.

[eridani]

17. Just fuck it all

If a state wants to have their 2012 primary in 2010, who are those thugs at DNC to say they can't. Hell, let's start on Jan 21st, 2009. Why not?

[zanne]

22. And that's what would happen. nt

[zanne]

24. dupe

[Sterling]

34. Why not just have the whole thing on one day?

Seems to be the only fair and logical way of addressing the issue. far better than disenfranchising ANY voter. I really think a lot of people are too close to the situation to be reasonable about it. People who let politics trump reason are not going to help fix the problems we face. That is largely why many people are turned off by politics in general. I hope it does not come back to hurt us in the GE. I know it reeks of voters being disrespected and the party dictating the terms to the voters. It really should be the other way around.

Maybe politicians should start listening to the voters more and stop attempting to manipulate and bully them. We really need a different tone in politics, especially now. I don't see any of the leading candidates moving in that direction. It would be more productive if politicians and the people who are working to get them elected would stop placing themselves so far above the citizens. That kind f attitude seems to have been a huge factor in what got us into the mess we are in now and certainly is a big reason most Americans don't feel like they are represented by either party and are not inspired by the process.

[eridani]

44. If you are going to do that, just cancel the actual election

All you'd have to do is look at the FEC filings and award delegates according to how much money the candidates have.

[eridani]

61. In that case, why have it at all? A one day primary would be about nothing but money

Cancel the election entirely, and just award delegates based on the latest FEC filings.

[blm]

26. Terry McAuliffe set this rule up at the DNC. The States kept it. This dog and pony

show is being brought to you by the folks who want PERCEPTION to blame Dean for this so certain wing of the party can get rid of him as DNC chair.

Rent the documentary Our Brand is Crisis and wake up to the manipulation.

[Debi]

29. Florida and Michigan legislature

who didn't like where the state's contests ended up in the calendar.

[Midwest Progressive]

32. Dean and the DNC were outsmarted by the RNC

The RNC allowed Michigan and Florida to still have primaries, with half the delgates, Dean and company stripped all delegates and extracted a pledge from all candidates to not campaign in those states.

[Malikshah]

36. It's called responsibility. Simple. Who's brilliant idea was it to run

roughshod over the rules and then stomp your feet when compromises were offered?

The state parties of both states.

As a Floridian I place the blame on the shoulders of the "leadership" of the Democratic party here.

Shills and charlatans all.

[johnnydrama]

39. yah

I'm not sure of what the compromises were that Dean offered, but really what's their to compromise.

Florida wants their vote before Super Tuesday. Dean and the DNC say no, it has to be on Super Tuesday.

What can they really compromise?

There was no reason for Florida to jump from Super Tuesday.

Did they really think they were more important than the other 22 states on Super Tuesday?

[MichiganVote]

43. Actually in Michigan it was initiated by repub. Mike Bishop.

All of the Dem. candidates were offered the opportunity to restore their names to the ballots but the Dem.'s did not seek it. They were also offered write candidacy and turned that down too. Clinton and Kucinich left their names on the ballot btu did not campaign in the state, including runnign national ads as was done by Obama.

Political schizophrenia.

[moondust]

40. Thugs not welcome.

They tried to muscle their way to the head of the line in violation of agreed-upon rules. They were arrogant enough to think the DNC would be too weak and timid to deny them and would eventually cave. It didn't. End of story.

[krkaufman]

41. The DNC was given little choice when Florida arrogantly and stupidly ...

... breached the agreed-upon primary schedule, jumping ahead of the Super Tuesday states (when candidates would already be resource-strained to meet the demands of that mega-primary day). And MI followed suit, after FL. These are the only two states that chose to not abide by the agreed-upon calendar.

IIRC.

[HooptieWagon]

42. I'm in Fla...

> Dem Party rules say NH has the first primary.
> Fla Dem Party (namely, head of party Karen Thurman, DLC puke) wanted to cut in line.
> Dems in Fla congress voted with repukes 98-1 to cut in line.
>DNC said move primary back to Feb 5th, or hold a caucus instead.
>Fla Dem Party said no.
>DNC removed Fla delegates from Convention.
>Sen Bill Nelson sued DNC on behalf of Fla Dem Party.
> Judge ruled DNC was within rights to make and enfore their own rules.
> Dem voters get screwed, but only have Fla Dem Party to blame. DNC is legally correct to set and enforce their rules. Fla Dem Party should have worked within party to move primary up.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

55. ********* Highly Recommended Synopsis**********

:applause:

[Marie26]

45. Why not the Republicans?

I don't understand this. FL & MI moved up their Republican primaries too, right? So why is it that their votes still count for the Rep. primary, but not the Dem primary? Why didn't the RNC "punish" these states as well?

[Danger Mouse]

48. They did. They took away a lot of delegates, just not all.

[Marie26]

59. That would've made a lot more sense

Enough to "punish" the state party w/o disenfranchising millions of voters.

[Danger Mouse]

47. Florida did it to themselves by acting like fucking children.

'Waaah, I wanna be first, rules be damned! I wanna be first!'
It sucks that the voters got screwed by it, but these are the consequences of their incredibly selfish actions.

[ErnestoG]

49. Known DLC turd Terry McAwfull

oh, and lately he's been speaking for Hillary Clinton.

[jannyk]

51. ... and today, 2 mil dems said fuck the DNC!! I thought

that 'By the Party - for the Party' was For Republicans. We were supposed to be the 'By the people - For the people" folks.

Disenfranchising 2+ million Democrats?! Karl Rove must be laughing his ass off!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

53. Angry. Be angry at the Florida Legislature. They caused this.

[robbedvoter]

54. Indeed! You don't ness with people's votes!

[flvegan]

56. The FL Dem party got Punk'd

it was obvious from the start, but they were too stupid to see it. Dean and the DNC were too stupid to let it go.

We continue to eat our own. Oh well.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

60. Disgusted...

First the Republicans robbed me of my vote in the 2000 general election, and now the Democrats are robbing me of my vote in the 2008 primary. The word disenfranchised comes to mind. As a life long democrat, I sent out my voter registration form to the supervisor of elections today to request a party change. My family, and many of my neighbors are doing the same.

In a year when the Democrats are putting up several weak candidates it was not a wise move to tell the voters of Florida and Michigan that our votes will not count. About the only thing that could get me to vote Democrat in the general election would be a brokered convention that leads to a candidate not currently in the running. With the withdrawal of John Edwards this looks even less likely. After 8 years of unpalatable leadership its sad to see the Democrats shoot for another 4 years.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

62. If Obama wins democratic nomination it ensures Repubs win Mich and Fla in 08

Telling these people they do not count sends a clear message, STAY HOME.

Especially after PROMISING in 2000 to fix voter issues.

Republicans definitely win Fla vs Obama and probably Micjigan too.

McCain is not to weak in either one.