Can we hang in there for 4 more years? Yes.

[OzarkDem]

With Edwards out of the race, hopes are dashed for a candidate who would work for true economic reform and recovery, jobs and affordable health care for all.

We're left with a pretty threadbare field of candidates who talk a good game, but sadly have established records that demonstrate their actions seldom meet their words. They know what steps need to be taken to fix the economy, bring good jobs back to the US, reduce energy costs, clean up the environment and provide health care for all. But they don't have the political will to do it.

Can we hang in there another 4 1/2 years? Sure. There's a lot we can do in the meantime and reason to hope for what Sen. Wellstone called the "Democratic Party wing of the Democratic Party".

There remains growing pressure from the public to get out of Iraq and the other budget- busting, economy killing forays in the ME.

Pressure will continue grow as the economy continues to sour. Our leaders in DC will do their best to make cosmetic changes, but they can't get away from the pressure. Corporate money, favorable media coverage and election rigging can't keep them in office forever with growing discontent among voters.

Stay strong and be relentless with phone calls, letters to the editor and visits to Congressional district offices. Don't let up and encourage others to do the same.

Keep supporting progressive candidates for Congress - they are the only voices we have left in DC. Encourage others to run and back their campaigns.

Our current system of health care is not sustainable for the long term. Hospitals are under growing financial burdens and we face the real possibility of collapse of these systems in many areas of the country in the next few years. Keep pressure on physicians and other health care professionals to support real reform. Many of them are good at medicine but inexperienced in politics. Educate them. Remind them that any reforms that only take care of their bottom line and don't help patients will fail.

Your governors and state leaders are also under growing financial pressure and can expect little in the way of relief. In exchange for your support, force them to keep the pressure on the WH and Congress to solve the problems. Don't worry if they get annoyed or impatient with you. Remember, they work for you and sometimes you have to remind them. Consider running for office yourself.

Don't look to any Dem in the WH to help, they've already sold out to big donors. Accept it and go on, it won't help to waste time trying to convince them. Their only focus is going to be on getting re-elected in 4 more years. They will only respond under extreme pressure from voters. Don't be fooled by rhetoric and false promises. Abandon them, forget them, they will likely be beyond redemption. If they come under attack, let them go. They're not worth saving or defending. Instead, start working today on finding a real Dem candidate to run in 2012.

We can make small incremental change in the next 4 years, but we have to do it on our own and we have to do it through Congress and our state elected officials. Forget the WH and current national Democratic Party leadership. If we begin now, we have a chance, so lets not wait.

On edit: don't waste any more time discussing candidates, their positions on issues, etc. Same thing after they're elected. Its not productive. They know what's wrong, they've already decided whether or not they will fix it and you can't change their minds.

[Dawgs]

1. "sadly have established records that demonstrate their actions seldom meet their words"

And, Edwards actions have often met his words?

I'm sorry, but your guy wasn't anymore perfect than Obama - Hillary yes.

[OzarkDem]

3. Edwards isn't in the race

Feel free to waste your time on the remaining candidates. The rest of us are moving forward and focusing on making change with or without them.

[cali]

7. ...

Most Edwards supporters in the real world will move on and vote for either Obama or Clinton, but feel free to keep clinging to the delusion that Edwards was the savior come to fix all that is wrong with this country.

[OzarkDem]

9. No, we are the ones who will fix things

the sooner we realize it, the more chance we have of making it happen.

[cali]

4. Actually, Obama's history and record

are better than Edwards by a significant degree, but Edwards supporters are toting this line that only Edwards could save America. And they have the unmitigated gall to call Obama supporters cultists. Big time cognitive dissonance.

[OzarkDem]

8. Good then let him prove it if he wins

But there are better things to do than watch the horse race. Both remaining candidates are pretty much the same.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Kucinich wallked his talk

his actions have met his words, far more than anyone else in the race. What we have for "choices" now is really no choice at all.

[cali]

2. As I don't agree with your premise which is merely YOUR opinion

I have 0, zip, nada use for your advice. And I always keep the pressure on my local and state officials. As I have Bernie, Pat and Peter as my congressional delegation, I send thanks more often than pleas to do the right things.

Oh and the reason I support Barack Obama is because he has a more progressive history and record than JE. I will be looking to the WH if he is elected.

Thanks for your "concern".

[OzarkDem]

5. See post above

Edwards is no longer in the race. Feel free to waste your time on the primary. There's little difference between the two remaining candidates and they don't respond to voters. Others choose to focus our efforts beyond the election.

[cali]

10. See post in this thread. Feel free to keep clinging to your delusion

that Edwards was some knight in shining armor come to rescue damsel America.

It's merely your uniformed opinion your expressing. You seem to have a real problem distinguishing between fact and opinion.

[Dawgs]

11. Good luck getting facts from the Edwards supporters.

And, using the line "my candidate isn't in the race anymore, so save it" is just plain childish.

[OzarkDem]

15. We all know the facts

The economy is sinking, the country is in a mess. We also know what needs to be done to fix it. What's left to argue? Whether to put your trust in one of the remaining Dem candidates to do something or begin working on it yourself.

I'm a doer. I'm moving forward.

[cali]

17. Well, that's certainly true of the OP

but I won't use a broad brush on the supporters of any candidate.

[OzarkDem]

14. I feel sorry for you

Edwards isn't in the race. This isn't about him. You have to let it go. Maybe you can seek professional help.

[cali]

16. *snicker* YOU, dear, are the one that made it about Edwards in your OP

by claiming that now that he's dropped out, it's all so pointless because he was THE ONE, and than you went on to bash Clinton and Obama. You really aren't so clever that a ten year old can't see through your spurious bullshit.

[OzarkDem]

19. No one is bashing Clinton or Obama

There's just no point in wasting time on them any more. Its really out of our hands.

[cali]

23. Who to believe? You or my own eyes? From your OP

"We're left with a pretty threadbare field of candidates who talk a good game, but sadly have established records that demonstrate their actions seldom meet their words. They know what steps need to be taken to fix the economy, bring good jobs back to the US, reduce energy costs, clean up the environment and provide health care for all. But they don't have the political will to do it."

"Don't look to any Dem in the WH to help, they've already sold out to big donors. Accept it and go on, it won't help to waste time trying to convince them. Their only focus is going to be on getting re-elected in 4 more years. They will only respond under extreme pressure from voters. Don't be fooled by rhetoric and false promises. Abandon them, forget them, they will likely be beyond redemption. If they come under attack, let them go. They're not worth saving or defending. Instead, start working today on finding a real Dem candidate to run in 2012."

You don't have a crystal ball. You don't have credibility when you claim to know the future either. You don't even have enough humility to say, "In my opinion". And yes, accusing the candidates of being "sellouts" is basing. Accusing them of making "false promises" is bashing". Saying they are "beyond redemption" is bashing. Saying they're "not worth saving of defending" is bashing. Saying they aren't "real" candidates is bashing. DUH.

[Bobbieo]

32. Ozark Dem - You do make a great deal of sense. I will vote for the nominee but

will concentrate on getting the best representation in Congress for my state. If others do the same we Democrats will survive!!!!

[OzarkDem]

33. Me, too

I'll show up on election day, but from now on, I'm focusing on turning Congress to an activist agenda.

[Dogmudgeon]

6. Just don't get sick, laid off, pregnant, foreclosed-on ...

It's easy to talk about austerity when you're doing O.K.

So ... why should we wait? What is so terrible about either candidate? Have you bought into the incessant whine of "corporate! corporate!" from educated bourgeois mini-pundits?

Don't be taken in -- politics is about far more than about how the person at the top fulfills your expectations. Four more years of a Republican could leave the Supreme Court AND up to half of the Circuit Courts packed with hard-core neo-cons. It would result in further degradation of climate of the international community -- and of the climatic climate!

Your discouragement is understandable, but with either Hillary or Obama, we got a voice, and we get to start on rebuilding Democracy. They will listen to us, even if imperfectly; but Republicans listen to no one but their own friends.

--p!

[OzarkDem]

12. I've been lobbying these candidates since both have been in Congress

Big money in Dem races has radically changed the landscape in DC in the last several years. Its not conjecture its reality. They talk a good game and they may tinker around the edges, but the job of getting things done up to us. I know from experience that neither of these people are real agents of change.

Disagree if you wish, its your time that will be wasted.

[LWolf]

13. Do you really want an answer to that question?

What is so bad about them?

HRC: The DLC. If you don't get this, no explanation could possibly help you.

Obama: Comes without the DLC label, but his platform is DLC-like, and he reminds me more of a Reagan Republican than a Democrat. Merit pay for teachers, pro-war-on-terror, pro-unilateral military action, leaves religion, insurance companies, etc. at the government table, allows homophobes to campaign for him....if you don't see what is so "bad" about this, then, again, I can't help you.

[OzarkDem]

18. Agree,

They've both got a lot of money for their campaigns, let them fight it out. Who cares? It makes no difference.

Let's focus on the future and getting ready to make change in DC regardless of who wins.

[Andy823]

39. I agree with you

There doesn't seem to be any difference in the two.

I also agree that it's the people that will make the changes, and as you said, we need to start making the changes by voting for those who aren't going to worry about the "money" coming in, but do their jobs and work for the people. I no longer will cast my vote simply because the "party" or the media says they are the best candidate.

[LWolf]

43. That I can do. n/t

[Windy]

22. Where do you get pro-unilateral military action with Obama

Sorry, the record doesn't support your premise.

[cali]

25. it's just ignorant bullshit

or purposeful smearing. Take your pick. And the irony of Edwards supporters saying this shit is too glaring for words.

[LWolf]

44. I believe, Cali, that this falls under the category of "personal attack."

You just called me ignorant. Which is not only a personal attack, but blatantly false.

Or you just falsely accused me of "purposeful smearing," as if my point of view is not valid, which is also a personal attack.

You also incorrectly identify me as "an Edwards supporter," which is not a terrible thing, just false, and through many prior conversations, you know it to be false. Is that "purposeful mischaracterization" on your part?

The poster you responded to was referring to MY post, not to some vague, unidentified group of people, but to my post specifically.

[OzarkDem]

27. There's nothing I would like more

than for Obama to prove me wrong if he gets elected.

[LWolf]

42. Yes, it does.

It's kind of strange that an Obama supporter, who has probably spent way more time listening to the man than I, doesn't know that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/03/politics/main3130600.shtml

[Dogmudgeon]

38. "If you don't get this, no explanation could possibly help you."

Kinda elitist, don't you think?

Okay, maybe not elitist. But certainly defeatist. Most people in general do nothing to change the course of politics, the nation, and culture in general. When they do, they assume they're the only one -- a pernicious artifact of Rugged Individualism -- and assume defeat.

As for the DLC, they're a toothless tiger. I have long wondered why so many DUers fear and loathe them. They may have been relevant in 1992, but not today. And the politicians they produced all went off to the left anyway. Today the DLC is a debate club that is used by young politicians as padding for their CVs. It is the Left's version of the "CFR-Trilateral-Illuminati" Conspiracy -- slightly more sane, but no less mistaken. (Incidentally, the DLC actually has kinda-sorta endorsed Obama, about two weeks ago.)

I think we're WAY too defeatist. Why not learn to fight -- and to enjoy fighting?

(Not just you. Not just me. But all progressives.)

--p!

[LWolf]

41. "Enjoy fighting..." That's an oxymoron.

I enjoy dissent. Debate. Constructive, active, disagreement.

I thrive on positive change. I don't happen to think the two remaining candidates represent positive change. I weather hard and bad times. I see the next 8 years as more hard times.

Just because the two left on the Democratic ticket don't earn my support, that doesn't mean I've given up. I'll vote in my primary; I'll write in a better candidate. I'll vote in the general election; I'll write in a better candidate.

I will remain active at the local and state level, and I will continue to be the nastiest thorn I can be in the side of every elected official of any party that obstructs social and economic justice, democratic principles, and the rule of law.

I don't agree with you about the DLC; I see corporate influence at it's worst in my lifetime.

And no, I don't think anything I've said is "elitist." If someone truly can't see, (or doesn't want to see or acknowledge)the corruption riddling the political process in this country, cannot see, (or doesn't want to see or acknowledge) the corruption ruling BOTH major parties, cannot see, (or doesn't want to see or acknowledge) why the corporate wing of the party is the beneficiary of all that corruption, and can't see their way clear to rejecting it, then what, exactly, could I say to them that would open their eyes?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. With the economy and the environment both collapsing

I see a lot of grief coming to America in the next four years. On a world wide scale, I think there will be a massive die-off of humanity as droughts and severe weather take their toll. The melting ice caps will raise ocean levels, drowning islands (this has already happened) and endangering major cities. I think the corporations will worry about themselves first, and efforts to help will only result in massive payoffs to them with little or nothing done.

There is no hope relying on most of the folks in Washington (Kucinich and a few others being the exceptions; the corporations are trying to oust them as we speak)--as you say, our hope is to start locally and hope that we can get decent folks elected to offices in our county and state.

[OzarkDem]

26. But it will bring tremendous pressure for change

There's a reasonable hope for incremental change in the next couple of years, but it will have to be done with pressure on Congress. If things continue, those up for re election in 2010 won't be able to ignore the problems.

All the corporate money in the world won't be able to spin public opinion in 2012 in the face of economic devastation. They were able to sell Ronald Reagan to the public during hard times in the 80's, so people can be duped even when they're suffering. But voters were much less engaged with government in those days, hopefully political activism will prevent it from happening again.

[PFunk]

24. I'm now starting to think that the dems major problem isn't the repubs...

...it's convincing major portions of their 'base' to just get out and vote. The primary system we have now actually seems to encorage people NOT to vote-or care about voting.

[OzarkDem]

29. That's the downside of corporate control

all that money for campaigns comes with a high price - letting corporations decide who your candidates are, not voters.

[cascadiance]

28. I guess another question is can and might we nominate another to replace a sitting president...

If Dems win, will still be STUCK with one of the corporatist options we have now and the media, etc. will ASSUME that noone wants to put up a new candidate for the Dems to challenge an incumbent.

On the other hand, if McCain or whoever the Rethug nominee is wins, we might have a better shot at getting a DECENT candidate in 2012, but I don't think folks like Ruther Bader Ginsburg will hold out another 4 years to prevent a Supreme Court mess, and we'll still have a imperial executive with self-imposed line item veto powers.

[philly_bob]

30. I was interested to read responses, but too much personal snark...

from Hillary and Obama supporters.

[cali]

31. gee, wonder if that could be because of the OP's

dishonest slamming of both. Nah, couldn't be.

[Yael]

35. It reads so much better

when every other line is IGNORED. Although it does make people look a little nutty arguing with themselves -- at least they are making good points.

:rofl:

[philly_bob]

40. Thanks! At last, the secret to reading discussions after good OP's! /nt

[elixir]

34. As Dawgs so aptly stated, JE's record didn't match his speeches. I think Hillary has proven to NY..

and US that she can act on her promises that benefit the middle class and poor.

[shenmue]

36. Your first couple lines are not true.

I'm sorry you feel that way. The more you cry into your beer, the more you fragment this country.

[Yael]

37. Ozark isn't fragmenting anything

the M$M and the DLC did that when they decided that the left half of the party (the activists) didn't matter.

Let them go after the Obamacans and fight for the indies.

:popcorn: