I'm wondering if Clinton supporters can be honest about this

[cali]

Rightly or wrongly, the vast majority of repuke analysts and the repuke online community would prefer to run against Clinton. They think they can beat her. They don't think they can beat Obama. I just heard Matthew Dowd, on NPR, expound on this. And this isn't any head fake reverse psychology stuff. It's crystal clear that this is what most pukes believe. And many dem analysts and pundits believe the same thing.

Again, I'm not saying they're right, but I'm interested to know if Clinton supporters can bring themselves to acknowledge that that repukes would rather run against Clinton than Obama.

[William769]

1. I think they are foaming at the mouth for either one.

For different reasons.

[Bitwit1234]

30. They really don't have to do anything but stand there to be more

honest than the bunch that follows the other candidate off his cliff.

[zabet]

2. Since when did anyone

start taking repukes
at their word? Up is
down with them, they
are habitual perpetuators
of misconceptions.

[cali]

7. that's ridiculous.

here on DU the consensus has been that McCain would be the most formidable. And in freeperville and on Redstate and other sites, it's been clear for a long time that they find Obama the most formidable. Believing that thousands of repuke posters are all engaged in some fake out conspiracy, is just silly.

[jakem]

14. thank you cali!

the repeated notion that 100 million republicans are in a a big plan to trick the democrats is as ridiculous as thinking that spending all day in GDP is going to change anyone's opinion about a damn thing.

[zabet]

16. At no time did I say 'ALL'

because it tends to be
a messy job when you paint
with a broad brush.

[zabet]

15. A lot of people said

'silly' when people first
questioned the events leading
up to 911. Look now, it has
been proved that we were lied
to, en masse. Would not be the
first time this has happened.

[Double T]

3. mcccain is the continuation of the bush administration with positions.......

like pro-war and making permanent the tax cuts to the rich. Americans have had enough of the rethugs and this kind of SHT! Conservatives NO NOT like mccain. HRC will win in a landslide with her brains, experience and reason.

[Uben]

4. Yes

I definitely think they want Clinton. But, I would never, ever base my vote on that premise. Either will easily defeat McCain. I vote for whom I think is the most quallified, not by what republicans want.

[Fredda Weinberg]

5. The GOP was salivating to run against HRC here. They learned

their lesson.

The Clintons are not evil incarnate; the opposition loathes them because they're effective politically. If your candidate posed a greater threat to their agenda, he'd face their wrath too.

[onehandle]

6. All I know is that they feared running against Edwards.

Fox, who always gives away what the GOP is thinking, was merciless against him.

[Independent-Voter]

21. Edwards?

Look, I liked John fine and all that, but let's be honest, he was a horrible candidate. What % of the primary vote did he get again?

[Dogmudgeon]

8. Of course they would

Politicians are egotists. The idea of being a capital-h Hero is their wet dream.

The Republican Party is full of politicians who would love to be able to say "I slew the She-Dragon, Hillary Clinton!"

Where did you get this idea that we Clinton supporters had to bring ourselves to acknowledge that the Right wanted to publicly skin the ass of their favorite devil imago?

--p!

[mmonk]

9. I'm for Obama at present and I will give my honest assessment.

I say I'm for Obama for disclosure, but he was not my first pick. I make that clarification (he wasn't my first choice) so no one makes the mistake that my eyes don't see so to speak. The American people have had over a decade of Hillary Clinton hatred training. Many out there in the real world say they would never vote for her but can't even give a reason why except that "they just don't like her". It is from this awareness that I surmise that our chances of getting the Whitehouse are weaker if she is the nominee.

[MadHound]

10. There's a good reason the right would love to run against Hillary,

It's what I've been saying for the past few months. With Hillary in the race it guarantees that the conservatives and 'Pugs will turn out in record numbers against her. They won't care if it is McCain, Romney, Paul, or a dead dog that is on the ticket, they will be coming out against Hillary no matter what. Second, Hillary will lose the anti-war left, who will either go Green, go Nader, or go home. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Hillary's IWR vote and her hawkish attitude have condemned her in the eyes of many. Third, with McCain in the race, a lot of independents and even conservative Dems will vote for him for various reasons.

Obama doesn't have this kind of baggage and would be a much better matchup against McCain. He could actually attract the majority of independents, the anti-war crowd would vote for him, and the right would be staying home to protest McCain rather than swarming out to vote against Hillary.

And if comes down to the super delegates swinging the nomination for Hillary, she'll lose even more votes from people who are purely disgusted with such undemocratic tactics.

[thoughtcrime1984]

11. This is one of the best posts I have seen on DU.

Well thought out and to the point. Nice work.

[cali]

12. I'm afraid that's it in a nutshell

Although I still believe Clinton can win against McCain, for all the reasons you listed, it's a much riskier venture.

[joshcryer]

29. So Hillary brings out voters.

And this is a democracy.

And that's a bad thing.

Amazing.

[MadHound]

38. Nothing wrong with Hillary bringing out voters

The trouble is that if you want a Democrat in the White House, Hillary would be bringing out all the wrong voters. She would be bringing out virtually every single 'Pug, conservative, RW fundy to vote against her, and we would be stuck with McCain. Is that really a good thing?

[Tarc]

33. Y'know, Rove would be proud of this tactic

Scream "Hillary is unelectable!" over and over til people just tire of trying to think for themselves.

The fact is, conservatism loathes McCain with a burning passion. Has nothing to do with the latest sermons by Limabugh or Coulter, this is something that has festered over there for a long, long time. Few will vote for Clinton, or Obama for that matter, in stead. But a good chunk is looking to either sit this one out for go 3rd party.

[MadHound]

39. Hey, the truth hurts sometimes

And the truth is, Hillary is unelectable, no matter who is running for the 'Pugs. The right may hate McCain, but they hate the Clintons much, much more and they will swarm out in droves to vote against her, no matter who is on the ticket.

You may not like it, you may rail against it, but it is the truth and it will come about if Hillary gets the nomination. Don't believe me, well that's fine, just don't come back here crying when this very scenario comes about in the fall.

[Tarc]

40. Yep, you've drunk the kool-aid deeply

Hopeless.

[MadHound]

42. LOL, denial isn't just a river now is it?

Look, I've been in politics for a long, long while, and have a very good track record. Tell you what, PM me if Hillary gets the nod, and perhaps we can arrange something. You know what they say, put up. . .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. St. Teresa Of Avila

"More tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones."

The irony of that quote is always lost on DU...Surprising for such a self professed educated bunch...

[cali]

31. uh, why do you think I phrased my OP the way I did?

Duh. As I said, they may or may not be right. Try reading for comprehension before implicitly bragging on how smart and educated you are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Bob Beckel Circa 1988

"If the Democrats can't beat George Bush (Pere) they need to find another country."

"Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it mistakes."

-George Santayana

The Clintons' have won nine out of their eleven match ups with the Republicans with their last losses coming before many posters on this board were born...

I like her chances...I like Obama's chances too...They both bring strengths and weaknesses to a general election...

[terrya]

17. Probably.

Yeah, the right probably does wish they rather run against Clinton than Obama. I still believe she can win against them in the election.

They're going to bring up Monica and all of that crap again. But I personally don't think the American people care anymore. If they did in the first place. There are too many goddamned problems in this country and in the world without reliving Ken Starr's greatest hits.

You asked my opinion, there it is.

[demokatgurrl]

18. Maybe, maybe not

I think they prefer Clinton as an opponent right now, because they have been preparing for her and attacking her for years. They are already locked and loaded. Obama is a bit more of a problem for them, because he's relatively new on the scene, not as left-wing as either they or MoveOn would like to believe, and they have to be somewhat careful not to let any innate racism come out. He doesn't have as long a record or as much history. However, they'll figure it out.
I do think he has a slightly greater chance against McCain than Clinton. However, my deep-down, honest and true feeling is that McCain will beat either of them because Democrats will vote for him.

[Zhuk]

19. It doesnt matter

it shouldnt matter what the Republicans think, we should choose the nominee that we want, the Republicans do want to verse a Clinton because she's the candidate they know and have been preparing for, Obama is harder because he is comparably an unknown quantity and the fact that he is african american makes him harder to criticise

[pdxmom]

20. I agree with you, cali. The Republicans are totally fractured right now

and they see Clinton as the one way to unify the party to get out there and vote for any Republican. I don't think there is any grand plan other than the obvious reliance on the Clinton hate that is so rampant on the right.

[Eric J in MN]

22. George Will was eager for Obama to run. NT

NT

[Rockholm]

23. I totally believe it is psych ops.

When a majority (it seems) of the RW talkers are touting Hillary over Obama, it appears to me that they want the Democratic undecideds and those of us who will vote (or have voted) for her to think twice. "Gee, what if I do vote for her and she wins. Is this what I have to look forward to? Maybe I will vote for Obama. The republicans don't want to run against him!"

Yeah, right. Naturally, I get sick every time the RW, and our loving associates here on DU, bring up every little "Clinton" issue. Here we go again. ON some boards that I am on where there are some sick RW'ers (among a majority of sane professionals), they keep pushing some Obama party in a limo in 1999. I had to Google it to see what they were talking about. Big deal to me. But what happens when this starts coming up? BTW, I have never seen this discussed on DU. Maybe just didn't see the story.

Anyway, if Obama is the nominee I will support him. I just don't belive he is up to the task of taking on the RW.

[mondo joe]

24. My answer: I don't pay attention to it. That's what campaigns are for. In 2004, by my recollection

it was widely believed that Kerry had the best chance of winning and he was who the repukes feared running against.

[samrock]

25. Whistling past the graveyard

They know how good she would be in office in getting stuff done.. or in the case of George W UNDONE.. She has political skills she learned from Bill.. They do NOT want her in there cause they know she can hurt them where they live.. So they talk BIG, but I think she is a very effective campaigner and will be a great president.. Obama maybe as well, but it will take him longer to get his "Sea Legs".. Hillary can start right out cleaning house from day 1.. This scares them

[H2O Man]

26. Interesting OP and thread.

There is one aspect of a Clinton campaign that I think is overlooked here. I do not think it should influence any democrat one way or the other, in their decision on which of our two candidates to support for the nomination.

My father used to tell me that republicans tend to think in the context of the future in a different way than democrats. While we look at ways to improve things for the benefit of the larger community in the future, he told me, republicans tend to be invested in the potential of future problems for the larger community that can benefit them as individuals.

Many of the top dogs in the republican party expect McCain to lose to either democrat, Clinton or Obama, by a large amount. Their desire for a Clinton presidency is based upon their belief that she would be a divisive leader, unable to work effectively with congress, and who the republican party could use as a target for fear and anger. In that sense, they are looking ahead to 2012, much in the manner that Willard was with his paranoid, hostile rant that was a cheap appeal for future consideration in that party.

[cali]

27. I don't think it should influence anyone's vote either.

And I've said repeatedly that I believe both Senator Clinton and Senator Obama can defeat Senator McCain.

It sounds like your father was a wise man.

[H2O Man]

36. Right.

I thought the OP raised a valid question. I had "nominated" it.

My father believed that there was hope for even the lowest of society. He was convinced that even republicans could change.

[demokatgurrl]

34. Very good and toughtful post. n/t

[joshcryer]

28. I disagree, the RW media is the one that trashes her they most, and this is in the primary season.

You'd think they'd hold their criticisms for the GE, rather than trash her throughout the primary season. The truth is they'd rather run against Obama because they see him as inexperienced and incapable of answering the call.

Plus, they're terrified of a woman running the world.

[Tom Rinaldo]

32. First I don't accept that there is no reverse psychology involved. Second...

The obsessive hatred that some in the Republican Right have toward Hillary Clinton will play out strongly to her benefit. It the Republican Right tries to solidify their base around attacks on Hillary they will totally marginalize themselves in the process

They will become the hard burnt out cinder core of a once growing movement that represented "a new morning for America" under Ronald Reagan which is how they managed to grow in the first place.

Democrats made major gains in the mid term congressional elections in 1998 as a backlash against the Republicans impeachment of Bill Clinton. George W. Bush had to run in 2000 as a kinder gentler "compassionate conservative" who was "a uniter, not a divider" in order to have any chance of winning the Presidency.

The hate that will ooze out from under Right Wing rocks trying to attack Hillary will repell and disgust most Americans. It may consolidate the core of the Republican Party, but it will peel away all the layers of support that it counts on to win National elections that do not make up that core. After 8 years of Bush the hard bitter core of conservative Republicans that remains can no longer win elections, and a hate based campaign will push away the broader support that they would need to regain power.

I am absolutely counting on ugly tactics being used against Hillary Clinton for President to help her win. Women are a majority group in America. They will not sit still and watch that happen without rallying to Hillary Clinton.

Hillary Clinton, as many here by now must have noticed, does not fold under pressure, and she doesn't over react to it either. She comes across the way that she did in the last debate, or in her national town hall meeting that she held the night before Super Tuesday. Hillary Clinton will have ample direct access to America's voters running as our Presidential candidate. She won't only be seen through a right wing filter, she will have her own air time this time, and they won't be able to cut off her microphone like the O'Reilly types are so fond of. The demon the Republican Right will attempt to run against and the woman who America will be seeing for themselves will be at odds, and the Right will be exposed for what they are; fear and hate mongers. Women will be furious at them, and many men also.

[joeybee12]

35. Please post some links...this is mainly speculation on your part...

...I think they'd rather run against Obama..at least some of them would...they could rattle him and every time they make a charge and Obama supporters cry racism, you think that's gonna stop them?

[angie_love]

43. This is not speculation

I just heard it again on the news today. They were talking about the TIME poll where McCain and Hillary are even 46-46 and Obama beats McCain 48-41. If you watched the news, its repeated over and over from dems and repubs that they would rather go against Hillary b/c they don't know how to run against Obama.

[AGirl]

41. It's reverse psychology from the GOP.

The election is always going to be close, with Hillary or Obama. Americans know Hillary and the attacks against her, they don't know that with Obama.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

44. Cali, I know for a fact you're smarter than this....

to listen to any of the MSM or radio talking heads and pundits and let them choose and frame our debate.

that is total BS....they want you to think this and it has a name.....Reverse Psychology

:loveya:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

45. I would have to read what "most pukes" and "many dem analysts & pundits" believe

Not asking for links, but I'm not going to acknowledge "many say" until I know who the many are, and what they say. Give me names and I'll check for myself.