Obama supporters, we know how perfect you candidate is, how he wouldn't have voted for the war etc.

[xultar]

But tell me what your candidate needs to work on from a policy perspective. What does Obama do that isn't so perfect?

[xultar]

1. Wow. Not one single person willing to admit a flaw in Obama? Come on we know Hillary sucks.

I could list a 1000 things. But on one is objective to list any flaws they find in Obama?

[pampango]

2. You go first with Hillary.

;)

[xultar]

3. Wow. Check out my blog in my siggy for that.

[miceelf]

20. Perhaps

Perhaps his supporters aren't waxing eloquent on his flaws for the same reason you don't find many Clinton supporters doing the same WRT their candidate. DU has become such a partisan cesspool that at this point any honest discussion of flaws or problems is just providing ammunition for the rabid partisans on the other side.

But to be honest, I don't think his health plan goes far enough. It's better than the Clinton version, but they both keep private insurance companies in the loop.

[xultar]

50. I think it is sad people can't discuss their own candidate's flaws.

[miceelf]

56. ??

I DID give one example of his flaws, after I explained why many people might not.

Several others on this thread have done the same.

[xultar]

58. I'm not saying you. If this was a bash thread there would be tons of participation.

[miceelf]

59. Sorry bout that

Well, that's true. But I suspect the bash threads are suppressing the more congenial threads like this one.

[xultar]

60. Though when I posted it about Obama some of his supporters went off.

IT is almost as if they can't discuss his flaws for fear of dimming the light or some shit. I think recognising faults is what makes great leaders and supporters. i think that is why Edwards had such a strong following. He could recognise and deal with his mistakes.

[miceelf]

70. Well

I agree with you about Edwards. he at least had the class to apologize for Iraq

But I do think it's less about dimming the light than about the current environment here, where it's all-fratricide, all the time.

[Buzz Clik]

4. I have no time for this. Being a member of a cult is hard work.

I'll get back to you on the Sabbath.

[William769]

5. Since you mention the cult thing.

People in cults can find no wrong with their leaders.

[Buzz Clik]

10. You're buying into this cult dickishness?

:rofl:

[William769]

15. I only mentioned it because you brought it up.

:rofl:

[Buzz Clik]

54. And you didn't start a thread on the same subject?

Someone is using your name, dude. I'd report that...

[William769]

61. I did a copycat thread that was done on Hillary.

I'm sure you missed that one though. :eyes:

[xultar]

16. I'm sure they can. But they'll get blindsided if Obama gets the nomination if they

don't discuss it.

Every candidate has flaws. I'm shocked that no one is willing to discuss it.

DUers want to be hardest on their own yet they can't do it on people they like.

[butterfly77]

30. They are trying to protect him...

but if he gets the nomination, they will become shocked and dismayed once the media the republicons, start tearing him up..Some may even begin to have second thoughts..

[xultar]

13. Kewl. Just trying to see or get the flaws that we know of that need to be addressed b4 the GOP

hits them. Cuz you know they will.

If we assume he has none then you'll get caught with your pants down.

[Mojorabbit]

31. Both of them have health plans that suck. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

55. I don't believe that one -- NOT ONE -- Obama supporter has suggested he's perfect.

That's been the purview of ... another group.

I feel no particular motivation to answer your demand to list Obama's faults. They exist; I still support him.

[TheDoorbellRang]

65. *splurt*

:rofl:

[godai]

6. Dumb question...Tell me what's wrong with your candidate

If you don't agree, and you posed the question...What does Clinton do that isn't perfect? Go ahead. Fire away.

[xultar]

11. I don't have a candidate. We cannot discuss Obama's flaws? Isn't that what the GOP will hit in

November?

[godai]

21. Then why have you no interest in Hillary's flaws?

Let's start there. It's the same case you're trying to make with Obama.

Nobody wants to discuss their candidate's flaws!

[xultar]

28. I just posted a thread. Why is it a big deal which one i post first. Geez

you're way to sensitive. How u gonna hold up when the gop get's your guy? You gonna start shootin in the streets or something?

[godai]

36. A better thread would have posed the question about both candidates.

Shootin in the streets?? Strange comment and I'll end my posts to this thread now. Nothing is being accomplished.

[xultar]

40. OK then you do it your way. I do it my way. We'll do it our way.

[Coexist]

7. I would prefer he backed single payer

but of the 800 bills he sponsored in Illinois, 233 were health care related - the elected majority in Illinois was Republican at that time, and he got some passed, so I assume he has learned a little pragmatism on that point (finding a common ground that they could all agree on to effect passage).

I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I sure hope he is right.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

[xultar]

9. Actually I like Obama's plan myself. I think though that he could explain it better while debating.

[Coexist]

17. during debating, if he could learn to not pause to measure his words,

he would be stronger than Hillary.

At first blush it seems like he is stuck for an answer, but then he speaks and you realise he was measuring how to say it the way he wants it to be heard.

If he could fix that - he would be better off. He does the same thing during press conferences in the Q&A.

[xultar]

19. I hadn't noticed that. But I think that would help with the clarity on issues cuz

it will give him more time to speak and share his views during the debates.

[KittyWampus]

8. I'm done with your fucked up games, Xultar.

[xultar]

12. Wait. We can discuss Pelosi's flaws, Reid's Flaws, all other dems but Obama's.

[Meldread]

14. Obama isn't perfect.

He's admitted it himself in his closing remarks in the last debate. He's gone so far as to say he'll appoint people who won't be "Yes people" into his cabinet because he knows he isn't perfect, and that he will change positions if he begins to think he is wrong. Hillary hasn't done that.

I don't think anyone is under any illusion that Obama is a perfect person - find me someone who is - just look at his falling out in the LGBT community as a prime example. The difference between Obama and Hillary is that Obama admits it, and if you want to roll out a list of faults, I can find more faults with Hillary than I can with Obama.

[xultar]

18. The on thing I can think of is that Obama needs to be clearer about his policies and plans during

debates.

I think that is a place that he can improve greatly. There are too many people who don't pay attention to or go to rallies or hang out on the web.

[Meldread]

38. Yes, but...

Yes, but there is not enough time to go into detail in the debates. Even Hillary does not go into detail. I do not think anyone will argue the fact that Hillary isn't a pretty good debater, but then again I do not think anyone has really held her feet to the fire. Out of all the debates I've seen, it was the last debate before Super Tuesday, during the Iraq War segment that I saw her really fumble and fall flat. However, outside of that Hillary is a very strong debater.

Obama did really poorly in the debates in the beginning, but he has definitely improved as much as 50% since the first major debate. He is a great speech giver, but when he isn't speaking from something prepared he "um's" a lot - most people do, but it gets in the way of what he is trying to say. Although, he has improved greatly. He still has a bit more to go. Even still, though, looking at our current President I do not think it will be held against him by the general public.

I do not think anyone would accuse Obama of being a policy wonk. That is where Hillary and Obama differ the most. Hillary loves the nitty-gritty details. Obama is more focused on the leadership aspect and getting things done. He knows what he wants, and directs someone else to draw up the details. He creates teams to come up with a solution then reviews it. He's more focused on creating coalitions, teams, and getting things done rather than focused on the 'thing' itself.

Personally, I believe Obama's method is superior in that it allows him to focus on many different things at once, whereas Hillary will be forced to focus on one thing at a time. It means he has the ability to get more accomplished in a shorter amount of time. It will also allow him to focus on working directly with the Congress so that whatever he wants done gets done. The way the Presidency is set up, it encourages that type of leadership method - it is why a President has a cabinet.

[xultar]

22. I just want to be clear. We can diss dicuss how Pelosi is flawed, How, Reid is flawed,

every one else who is a dem because we can't discuss Obama's flaws.

[godai]

26. Please clarify n/t

[RandomKoolzip]

23. I wish he were more specific in his speeches. I hate the McClurkin thing.

I'm not fully on board with his health care plan. He doesn't favor immediate withdrawl from Iraq (and yes, I do.)

But I still prefer him over Clinton. Should she get the nomination, I'll gladly vote for her, however.

[xultar]

27. You gotta give it to him though. That McClukin thing is the only fuck up. AND

it is his first run. You gotta give him MAJOR props for that...

AND the fundies can't touch it with a 10ft pole without looking like they are for Gay rights.

[RandomKoolzip]

37. Oh, there've been other fuck ups.

The way Obama handled the McClurkin affair really pissed me off, though, more so than the actual invitation of a homophobe into the campaign.

And like I said: I'd be happier than a pig in shit if Obama were more specific in his public appearances. I mean, would it kill the guy to outline his tax policies, for instance? Sure, he'd risk boring half the audience with statistics, but it'd give the policy wonks something tangible to chew on.

[jonnyblitz]

32. I think many go with Obama because he isn't Clinton

and don't fall into the catagory of cult of personality (i believe this exists but not just with Obama).I understand that. 6 months ago I would have jumped all over anybody who might even imply I would vote for Hillary in the primary but I did. that is how bad I just don't like Obama. I don't like him and it is a deep, deep dislike. I will spare you the details. I just wanted to say I do understand the Hillary Clinton thing and don't paint with the broad brush that all Obama supporters are cult followers though it is a tempting thing to do in the spirit of the current temperment here at DU. Cult is too harsh a word. Obama supporters haven't all moved to a compound in Idaho. :hi:

[RandomKoolzip]

41. Much of that is true.

However, many actually support Obama because they've done their research and think his policies conform best to their own. Many are excited about (FINALLY!) having someone fresh and inspiring to vote for. When DUers characterize these people as a "cult," it doesn't do either side any good. Do some Obama supporters like him because he's "Not Hillary?" Absolutely. That's knee-jerk thinking and those people need to grow up.

I can understand some people's deep dislike of Obama. No one's perfect, and he does give his detractors grist for their mills. My own opinion, though, is that one shouldn't base one's vote on the behavior of a certain candidate's supporters on an obscure political message board. If that were true, I'd never have supported Kucinich (and I still do) because I thought the moony, unrealistic, new agey shit I'd read from many of Dennis's fans was nauseating.

Hillary's a great candidate. I have no doubt she'd be 1000 times a better president than Bush. My choice is Obama right now, though. Good luck to you and congrats in advance if she gts the nod. :hi:

PS: Why is a magnanimity such a dirty word on DU? :scared:

[xultar]

47. Which is good for him. But bad for Clinton. Personally I think she should bow out.

[joshcryer]

33. His speeches lack substance, and his policies, when criticised, are changed on the fly.

In other words, he doesn't really have much there, and when he's called on it he pretends he has something.

[xultar]

52. Are you an Obama supporter? This thread was supposed to be for them.

[joshcryer]

69. Yes, I support our nominee, and I believe Obama will be the nominee.

Or are you asking if I'm an Obama fan?

[Coexist]

35. yeah, the McClurkin thing is messed up.

I forgot about that.

[xultar]

49. But it was so long ago and bad but minor becasuse the voters didn't give a shit.

[IronLionZion]

74. Agreed, McClurkin was bad. His plans need more work and will get it before passing congress. nt

[Dawgs]

24. I'll play.

I have minor problems with his positions on immigration, fixing our climate, and education.

I don' have time to tell you why, but I'm also not afraid to admit that he's not perfect.

[xultar]

29. That is the key. He's not. As soon as people realise that and work on it

then they can realistically and objectively discuss their candidate. Which right now I don't think either side can do.

[Perky]

25. He is young. He is not yet jaded. He is a great speaker but only a fair debater.

All that not withstanding.

He admits to all of that
He is not polarizing.


He offers an important generational change.

He draws youn people and ASs to the polls in record numbers,



He isour best shout as humiliating the GOP in the Fall...


I want a working majority. I do not want 53/47 in the senate.


I do not want a 12 member mahjority in the House. I want a 40 member majority

We need to move the ball down the field.


He is not perfact but the other candida missed the mark by a much greater degree.

[xultar]

53. I cannot disagree with your post. Good thoughts.

[Tatiana]

34. His health care plan sucks.

But then so does Hillary's. My hope is to overwhelmingly elect a Dem Congress that will pass a single-payer bill. I think Obama would sign one. Hillary will surely veto any single-payer bill.

Also, he wants to amend NAFTA. I'd rather just explore pulling out of it. I really can't see any way of "fixing" it. It's like NCLB, which is another thing I disagree with him on. Some of these bad bills can't be "fixed." It's just better to scrap them and start with a clean slate.

[xultar]

43. That the problem? Why can't we get a healthplan from anyone that works

for everyone?

[Tatiana]

57. The health insurance industry buys them off.

That is why we need to elect people who don't accept money from them.

If candidates see that they can still collect as much or more money from multiple small donors, then I think they will be less likely to be owned by the HMOs and health insurance companies. That's why I don't see Obama (or Hillary for that matter) doing so well at fundraising. Yes, the money is excessive, but it proves a point. Corporations aren't the only source of funds for a campaign.

[Bright Eyes]

39. He needs more foreign policy experience.

And I wish he would adopt single payer health care.

[xultar]

46. Who would you pick as VP to overt that attack by the GOP. And would a GOP

candidate be enough, since the buck stops with the president.

[IronLionZion]

73. Easily Bill Richardson

although that ticket is a little ethnic for some of our pigment-challenged voters, it has all the good stuff.

[Coexist]

48. he needs to play up that he is on the Senate Foreign Relations committee

and I think putting Webb on the ticket would blunt some of McCain's war hero status re: Iraq.

The man who was hurt in Vietnam who is FOR the war vs. the man whose son was IN Iraq who is against the war.

[xultar]

51. I LOVE WEBB. I think they'd get along great also.

[hedgehog]

42. His desk is a mess. He loses papers. He leaves his dirty socks

on the floor.

















Oh wait; those are my husband's flaws. You were asking about Obama?

[xultar]

45. Unless you are married to Obama. To that I'd say hello Michelle.

[calmblueocean]

44. Obama uses too many carrots and not enough sticks.

Obama has shown an aversion to making change through strong regulation. He's more likely to lay out guidelines, and offer money towards achieving them, than he is to simply make industries to do the right thing. Take his "Health Care for Hybrids" program. Here's how he describes it:

"...it would allow the federal government to pick up part of the tab for the auto companies' retiree health care costs. In exchange, the auto companies would then use some of that savings to build and invest in more fuel-efficient cars. It's a win-win proposal for the industry - their retirees will be taken care of, they'll save money on health care, and they'll be free to invest in the kind of fuel-efficient cars that are the key to their competitive future."

It's an innovative idea, and maybe it will get the results he wants. But why are we picking up the tab for auto company pension health care plans? I'm not a fan of bailout capitalism and that's what this is. There is plenty of room for public private partnerships, and for government incentives, but in this case, I think it sends the wrong message to companies -- that they can use the threat of stagnation in their industry in order to get the government to take over some of their liabilities.

So that's one beef I have with him.

[Jed Dilligan]

62. He needs to go back to supporting drug decriminalization

He needs to highlight agricultural and education issues more in his campaigning.

[harun]

63. He's not negative enough to Hillary and he is too nice to her

Rest is pretty good.

Policy wise I hope he actually implements H.R. 676 instead of the Health Plan he says he supports now.

[NMMNG]

64. Off to the greatest page with you.

:hi:

[Iceburg]

66. That's a hypothetical question. How did he vote on the renewal of the Patriot act?

[LittleClarkie]

67. Might have had more luck without the snark.

That little "we know how perfect your candidate is" etc. doesn't make you sound too sincere about having a real discussion.

[THUNDER HANDS]

68. wait, he's not perfect?

[donheld]

71. Does the name Donnie McClurkin mena anything to you? n/t

[tishaLA]

72. Not a fan of his health care plan

I think he should be more progressive on LGBT issues, and this isn't about the McClurkin thing. I just don't think he's particularly strong and gives those issues lip service, at best.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. Too friendly with nuclear and coal interests by far.

I understand those are big industries in IL.

[Iceburg]

76. The Obama campaign is the most divise campaign I have ever witnessed..

And it continues the theme each and every day. Yesterdays target -- the Hispanics and Latinos.
Further his supporters continue to seed class divisions daily with boastful claims of how much money and affluence they wield ..."we got more celebrities than you ...na na na na na". One supporter actually referred to the non-Obama supporters as the "lunch bucket" crowd.

The attack on the GLBT: Obama pedalled his de-gayifying preacher and ex-gay Donnie McClurkin around the country offering a cure to the GLBT community. The message he is sending out: Don't hate the gays -- embrace them, for they are sick -- but we have the cure!
I ask you to imagine during the heat of the black civil rights movement... imagine if one of the politicians offered to de-colorize your skin. How would it feel?

Two nights ago, he took a swipe at "certain older women" as he tried to explain away his losses in California

Hi wife sends a signal that the Obama's won't support HC's campaign if she wins the nom ....the list goes on.

Bottom line: There has never been a more unprepared and divisive candidate on the democratic slate. He is bad for the party.