How is Hillary status quo and Obama change? Let's make a change checklist

[jackson_dem]

I'll start.

Health care: Obama=change. Hillary=bigger change
War: Obama=change. Hillary=change
Supreme Court: Obama=change. Hillary=change
Rethug Trickle-down: Obama=change. Hillary=change

Corporate influence: Obama=no change. Hillary=no change
Trade: Obama=tiny change (NAFTA). Hillary=small change (review all trade agreements, not just NAFTA) but more than Obama

[waiting for hope]

1. I'll rec that!

[Armstead]

2. Okay

History of meaningless partisan polarization (NOT meaningful dichotomy of issues):

Obama -- Big Change Hillary -- Step backward

Involvement of DLC and dominance of it in Democratic Party

Obama -- Change Hillary -- Restoration of ultimate influence

Need for fresh face (apart from policies)

Obama -- Big Change Hillary -- Restoration of same old, same old

[MagsDem]

5. How is Obama going to affect change regarding

"meaningless partisan polarization" when he and his supporters regurgitate rethug talking points endlessly? Hell, he's running a new version of the Harry and Louise ads against universal healthcare. Doesn't sound like the rhetoric matches the actions to me.

And what election has the DLC ever influenced? Ever? That's just bullshit.

Fresh face? Bush was a "fresh face" How did that work out for us?

[Armstead]

13. Clinton was a "fresh face" in 92

The Clintons are the focal point for partisan polarization based solely on personality and "teams." Some of it deserved, some of it undeserved. But that's the reality.

The DLC is the power behind the throne for Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton and a whole brand of Democrat. They influence the whole system within the party.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

25. Bush was a "fresh face"???

I could have sworn he was the son of a former President.

I'll post a link later if I can find one...

[jackson_dem]

26. He was unknown to most of the country until 2000

He is different from Hillary in that respect. His point is a good one. Replace Bush with Reagan if you want to quibble with the example used.

[jackson_dem]

7. So you can't back up the Obamite change meme with any substance?

Obama will be polarizing just like every president since Adams if elected. No change with either.

Obama is as DLC as Hillary. If he isn't name one policy disagreement he has with the DLC. Again, no change with either.

Fresh face? That's what it all comes down to. His name isn't Clinton. That is why he does best with the rich. They can afford "change" like that but working folks need real change.

Even if Hillary is the restoration of the 90's that isn't a bad thing. Is Obama going to create over twenty million jobs?

[Armstead]

17. You puzzle me

In general, I think I agree with a lot of what you stand for.

And I am not jumping up and down with enthusiasm for Obama.

But to me the Clintons are the opposite of liberal/progressive populism and they are antagonists of it. One of their basic missions has been to send real progressive reform to the back of the bus.

Sure, Hillary talks a populist line now, because she has to tailor her message to the widespread discontent of the public. But she'll just chalk that off to the exigencies of campaigning if she gets into the White Hoiuse, and the corporations will breathe easier knowing that they'll be taken care of.

[usrbs]

15. "Need for a new face" more important than how good they'll govern? n/t

[jackson_dem]

18. Apparently

:shrug:

[kirby]

3. Telecom Immunity:

Obama = No.
Hillary - Didn't show up for the vote.

[jackson_dem]

9. SCHIP

Hillary: yes
Obama: didn't show up

[Zodiak]

24. FISA bill today

Obama voted "Nay"

Hillary didn't show up

The rest of the DLC gave Bush what he wanted.

[backscatter712]

19. Wish I could rec this post!

This FISA vote was right in the middle of a big election fight. Hillary had no excuse for failing to make a showing here - she knew damned well her vote (or lack thereof) would be watched and noted.

Obama came and did his job. Hillary thought winning elections was more important than civil liberties.

[jackson_dem]

21. Hillary has a good attendance record. Obama doesn't

He has not voted on many important bills.

[MethuenProgressive]

4. Obama = Ted Kennedy, the Grateful Dead, 55 yo Oprah, 65 yo Joan Baez... that's "new"?

"She's the Past! I'm the Future!" -BO
Um... Not.

[mkultra]

6. she is bill lite

bill was fine, but it can be better.

[blm]

22. Clintons - Poppy Bush, Stephens, Marc Rich, Dubai and Saudi royals...THAT's NEW?

You want the continuing protection of BushInc but don't have the guts to say so straight up.

[cooolandrew]

8. A review tends to be a brush off in politics speak.

[cooolandrew]

10. ...

[Freida5]

11. But you need to deduct 50% off of Obama's score to compensate for his learning curve

[cooolandrew]

12. Running a competitive campaign check, balanced campaign budget check, media friendly check learns...

... very fast I say.

[Occam Bandage]

14. Okay, let's make a checklist:

Change: Obama=yes. Hillary=no.

Whee!

[jsamuel]

16. thanks, Edwards was Big Change all the way down

[Vinca]

20. Obama = not a Bush or Clinton. Hillary = another Bush or Clinton.

[jackson_dem]

23. That isn't change

So FDR was not change because he was related to TR?

[Neo-wobbly]

27. Funny, my list looks a little different

Health care: Obama=little change. Hillary=little change
War: Obama= no change. Hillary=no change
Supreme Court: Obama=change? what's that? Hillary=no change
Rethug Trickle-down: Obama=no change. Hillary=no change

Corporate influence: Obama=he'll say "change" a lot. Hillary=two bits
Education: Obama=no change. Hillary=no change
Civil Liberties (Patriot, FISA, etc): Obama=no change. Hillary=change your shorts