GLBT DUers: So how are y'all feeling right now? Check in.

[theHandpuppet]

As for myself, I guess I'm old enough to have become rather numb to the disappointment. Well, either that or I'm pretty depressed! Here we are again, a non-issue. The one group of folks in America, some 20-30 million strong, without the basic human rights afforded everyone else in this country. The voters no one wants to be seen with, the people whose hopes and dreams are not to be mentioned, the "political poison" people who get thrown under the bus.

They want our votes, our money, our support, our loyalty. They just don't want us to be seen or heard. Every election we're told to take one on the chin for the good of the party. For over 35 years I've fought for civil rights, women's rights, reproduction rights, the rights of the poor, the unions, the elderly and the disabled. Only I'm not supposed to fight for MY rights.

And you know what? I feel like no one really gives a rat's ass, either.

Sorry if this poops on anybody's parade but I don't feel as if we have much to celebrate right about now. That hope and change everyone's talking about doesn't, I'm afraid, include us.

[TankLV]

1. We have much to be unhappy about...but it's not over...

This goes to show you can shit on gay people over and over and there will be NO price to pay for it. None.

I certainly will not go out of my way to vote this November if Obama is the nominee - for the first time EVER since 1976,,,

[goodgd_yall]

3. Wow

I suppose that's a way to send the message that we're a formidable group that can't be ignored.

[theHandpuppet]

6. I've considered that in the past

But I really DO care about the rights of all those other folks who have been trodden on by the Republicans. And that's where they have us by the short hairs. We care enough to fight tooth and nail for the rights of others but it doesn't appear the favor is ever returned. When is it time to draw the line, and how?

I'm just sick about it all.

[goodgd_yall]

242. Agreed

I couldn't bear contributing to a possible Republican president by depriving my vote to the Democratic nominee.

[quakerboy]

19. please vote

You dont even have to choose a dem or pub. do a write in. Ficus. Anything. but show up. Say something, even if its only none of the above. not showing up just says kick me again, I wont do ANYTHING about it.

[Jamastiene]

301. Write-in Hillary.

:D

[Jamastiene]

300. Maybe we could join the write-in campaign.

Many female Hillary supporters are thinking of a write-in campaign in the GE because of the misogyny. That alone is enough to make me want to join the write-in campaign. If we in the GLBT community join them, we'd have more power to actually make a difference. It would build if enough people joined the effort. I could tell my friends. You could tell yours and on down the line...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

311. I feel your pain.

As an Palestinian American muslim Family, the candidates can't get away from us fast enough.

[jlake]

2. I am as saddened as I was after the 2004 election.

I am trying to cling to my hope - but it is slipping away.

[bear425]

4. I'm sort of glad that we are not a political football this year.

Although, I am feeling somewhat defeated at the same time.

[Neshanic]

5. The dream that dare not be dreamt. Everyone gets one but us, but...

that's the way of the world now.

[theHandpuppet]

7. And we're just supposed to accept that?

But don't forget to vote, of course.

[Neshanic]

9. Well we always do. Where else do we go?

[NMMNG]

17. Yes, that "What are you gonna do, vote Republican?" deal

If enough of us told the Dems that they give us our rights or they don't get our $$$ our our support, they'd turn their spineless backsides around post haste. It's high time we stop being their perpetual $$$/vote/support ATM Machines while getting nothing in return. They need to pay up or stop using us.

[lachattefolle]

172. Well, as an atheist, I'd have to say we are somehwat in the same boat.

Obviously my husband and I can get married, even if we're "going to hell". But neither of us could get elected to dog catcher by proclaiming our atheism. I'm sick and tired of having politicians pander to the religious prejudices of people. We'll have achieved full equality in this country when an African-American or Hispanic or Native American or Asian or White Atheist Man or Woman who is a thrice divorced, disabled, GLBT person, can get elected. For now, and probably for my entire lifetime (I'm 49) I'll have to just keep dreaming.

[NMMNG]

243. The sad reality of our society

People and their religious bigotries (and I know not all religions espouse such idiotic notions, of course). I'm a gaytheist myself so I'm doubly screwed. :-(


There's the "no religious test for public office" rule, but that's not strictly enforced, particularly in the minds of voters. They take their personal prejudices to heart that atheists are immoral and that's all she wrote. Now who ever blew up a building in the name of No-God? How many wars have been waged in the name of atheism? But we're the bad guys. :eyes:

Keep fighting the good fight. It's all you can do. :hi:

[lachattefolle]

269. Thanks, Buffy, guess I'll see you in "hell". It's where most of the interesting

people are going, so I'll be in good company anyway!

:toast:

[NMMNG]

270. Yes, and the best thing....

No fundies! :bounce:

[lachattefolle]

278. Heh, I know, it'll be great. n/t

[Jamastiene]

312. I'll be there too.

:toast:

[lachattefolle]

338. LOL!

[newmajority]

8. Listen to what Obama himself says

He says very blatantly that this country needs to get over the fears that hold us back, including being "afraid of gays".

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qZnxx44MnJM

You KNOW the Clintons would throw you under the bus, because they HAVE done so already. You know McCain would run over you with his bus, given the chance to do so. Why not get on the bus that's going in a new direction. And if the McClurkins of the world try to hijack this bus, I will personally kick their ass.

[Neshanic]

11. Obama says "GLBT persons should have equal rights".

Not in my lifetime. Instead couched in terms that give him enough wiggle room that would make the Grand Canyon look small.

He just has dreams for all....except us.

When someone talks about the bigger things like hope, dreams, yes we can, change, you would think it included everyone.

But that's OK, I did not expect anything from him or Hillary.

[theHandpuppet]

12. Please don't shove Barack in my face right now

McClurkin has already boarded that bus. And until Obama says something more than it's not nice to hate gays (gee, thanks!) I know that bus is about to roll right over my face.

[Adamocrat]

18. It takes a village of idiots...

If people think that McClurkin won't have Obama's ear, they're delusional. He was an "early adopter", and he will get political payback.

[TheWraith]

27. You two are being completely irrational.

Assigning massive, world-shattering importance to the opinion of a damn concert performer, over and above the history and body of work of a candidate's progressive credentials.

[QC]

32. Yes, we are a bunch of hysterical, ungrateful nellies.

Now run along and have some more Kool-Aid.

[TheWraith]

36. No offense, but when people deliberately ignore reality in order to wail and rend their garments...

It's going to be assumed that they don't really want to engage in rational discussion, but rather want to complain.

[QC]

40. No offense, but I'm tired of having straights lecture me

on how I need to get a thicker skin. Obama gladly jumped into bed with a man who says that I am possessed by the devil and want to destroy children. I would sooner write in Elmer Fudd that vote for that man.

Nobody here is interested in buying what you are selling. I swear, you're worse than those Jehovah's Witnesses that keep showing up at my door.

[TheWraith]

47. You assume that I'm straight. And, "jumped into bed?" Way to exaggerate.

Again: performed at a concert, NOT appointed to the cabinet. Have a sense of perspective.

[QC]

50. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am interested

in your opinions on this subject.

I am not.

Shouldn't you be chanting somewhere?

[TheWraith]

54. Thanks for conceeding that you can't win on the facts, so you go to personal attack. NT

[QC]

55. No attack there, just a request that you find some more productive way to use your time

than to harangue me with the same intellectually and morally squalid rationalizations that I have been hearing for months now.

[TheWraith]

65. I'm trying to hit people with some facts. There's a distinct absence of them in this thread. NT

[Hoof Hearted]

108. Yup. These here gays are just SO DARN SILLY - can't get their facts straight. Ooops!

Really? How dare you.

[IndieLeft]

227. You can lead a horse to water...

Facts don't matter here. Just let them sulk.

[Bluebear]

245. Then kindly take a powder while we "sulk".

Idiot.

[Jamastiene]

305. Maybe one day you'll be raped and get no justice.

Maybe then you'll see what it feels like for an awful lot of the L's in GLBT. Then who'll be sulking.

[Bake]

244. Really? Hit people with the facts?

I'm a straight man who thinks it's long past time for EVERYONE to have equal rights and equal protection uner the Law. So where exactly does Obama come down on the issue of gay marriage? MY marriage is not threatened by what anybody else does. Why shouldn't EVERYONE have that right?

So please. The McClurkin thing made a huge symbolic statement. If that's wrong, then please, hit me with some facts. And a link.

Bake

[Jamastiene]

304. We get hit enough by you homophobes.

In some states, those are considered hate crimes. That's pretty much all we have ever been able to get along the lines of rights.

So, quit hitting us again with your version of "facts" and go the fuck away. Just shut up and go away. At least let us have this one fucking thread to ourselves, for fuck's sake.

I know you will go away for me, cause your going on ignore. Thanks for using such language in a GLBT thread, asshole homophobe. Maybe you'll be raped or bashed one day then someone will want to "hit" you with something after the fact. Maybe then you'll see what it feels like. In the meantime, fuck off and die. The feeling is mutual here on my end of the tubes, see? I have received enough hate for one lifetime without any more salt in my wounds. Off to ignore you go. Hope I never meet you in real life. You might bash me.

[NMMNG]

38. Research the "Ex-Gay" movement

Find out how insidious, far reaching and harmful it is--if you have the slightest ounce of concern for LGBT rights, that is. It's not just McClurkin who is a problem. It goes way beyond him. Obama is beholden to the Ex-Gay industry and its proponents who seek only to harm LGBTs. It's not irrational to fear and wish to stop people who want to eradicate our rights and us as well.



Some good sites to try include:

Ex-Gay Watch
Wayne Besen
Beyond Ex-Gay

[TheWraith]

43. I'm well and fully aware of the dimwits, thanks. Have been for a long, long time.

Obama is "beholden" to them? Where the hell are you getting that, exactly? What, he owes them his soul for one guy's performance at a concert? You throw around this stuff, but it has no base in reality.

[NMMNG]

59. He chose to use McClurkin despite protests

He knew how much damage it would do to the LGBT community but he used McClurkin as he wanted the votes and $$$ it would get him from bigots. He chose $$$ and votes over the well being of LGBTs. Then he chose to use Kirbyjon Caldwell, another bigot who ran an "Ex-Gay" ministry, all that time and afterwards until the story broke.

Obama denounces racism but utilizes homophobia in his own campaign as a tool to garner votes and cash for his campaign. He's a blatant hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about LGBT rights but only gives them lip service to further his political career as needed. If it comes to a choice between the homophobes and the LGBTs he will pander to the homophobes each and every time. He is useless to us.

And since you feel the need to do nothing but insult LGBTs here you can say hello to my Ignore list.

[TheWraith]

64. My intention isn't to insult, it's to debunk bogus arguments.

And pray tell, what "damage" did it do? Was this guy not already a well known musician? And do you not recall that the event was NOT a fundraiser?

You're either tragically misinformed, or making up facts to fit your argument.

[Hoof Hearted]

115. McClurkin is to musician as Hitler is to artist.

THAT'S the truth.

Put that in your Kool-Aid and drink it.

[NorthernSpy]

216. Godwin -- you lose.

:eyes:


The melodrama is getting out of hand.

[NMMNG]

298. Don't you fucking roll your eyes

You have all of your Human and Civil rights. Don't you dare roll your eyes at people who don't have theirs you derisive bigot.

[LostinVA]

327. I may have to

Log out to read this exchange. All it is is one long "Ignore."

[NMMNG]

342. Just another privileged jagoff

rolling their eyes at the "melodrama".

Let's take away their Human/Civil rights then laugh and sneer at them when they complain. It would be just dessert for the cocky, heartless bastards here.

[terrya]

313. "The melodrama is getting out of hand"

That tells me everything I need to know about the Obama supporters around here. Not one goddamned particle of concern about GLBT people or their issues or their outrage.

[noamnety]

273. The damage is in giving a microphone to hate speech.

I swear I think some of the folks here won't get that until Hillary has David Duke speak at an event for her.

I'm not even sure they'd get it then. "What 'damage' is done by having a member of the KKK speak on behalf of Clinton, eh?"

When you have an opportunity to sit down with a young gay black man whose is fighting exactly this issue with his parents and talk through these issues, and he's giving you material from these idiots to read because he's come across it; and the candidate that the world has told him he's supposed to identify with and who his community adores, who is supposed to be some kind of next JFK :eyes: is giving the stage to the same gay bigots his parents are listening to, you come talk to me about how it's not causing any damage. I am dealing with kids - today, even - who are living the damage you can't even manage to acknowledge.

[QC]

67. Amazing how much better the thread is with just one addition to the twitfilter, isn't it? n/t

[NMMNG]

75. Yes

I'm so glad the Ignore function is back in action. :bounce:

I'm sorry, but anybody who prattled on about equality for blacks, then hired an asshat from the KKK for one of their campaign events to spew bigoted bullsh*t wouldn't get my vote (though there are other reasons I don't support Obama). Funny how some can't see how it's the same damn thing except "black" is LGBT and "KKK" is Ex-Gay. Bigotry is simply a non-negotiable for me, and needing my rights does not make me a one-issue voter.

[QC]

81. Better still,

imagine bringing in someone from the Ex-Negro Movement. I bet that would go over well, wouldn't it!

[NMMNG]

96. I just knew it was going to be BB

I saw that a week or two ago and was dying to post it here but knew it would cause too much of an uproar because people just wouldn't get the intent behind it. That being getting across to them how offensive and hurtful the "Ex-Gay" thing is to us. An entire book could be (and many have been ) devoted to how many people have been damaged and even killed by those SOBs.

[QC]

106. I remember when it first came out.

It was during the big ex-gay media push in the late 90s, where they were running ads with all those pitiful couples who claimed to be cured. One poster child was soon after caught in a gay bar, where he claimed he had gone just to use the pottie. Ah, those halcyon days of the right wing kulturkampf. Now, of course, we are supposed to embrace those people.

[NMMNG]

132. Good old John Paulk

:eyes:

Now, of course, we are supposed to embrace those people.

Embrace them my ass. Anybody who embraces the "Ex-Gay" movement or tells me we should "reach out to them" can go fornicate themselves sideways with something pointy and splintered.

[Bluebear]

175. I can only imagine what case "ignored" is arguing.

[Horse with no Name]

194. LOL@you

I was wondering the same thing.:rofl:

[NMMNG]

212. That we're a bunch of stupid, handwringing

idiots who don't know what we're talking about. McClurkin was just a damn singer at one event, you know. How can we make such a big issue out of that when Obama has an LGBT rights record the length of his enormous member? He loves gays so much he's like the MLK for gay people. We're just a bunch of whining babies. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know the drill by now.

[Jamastiene]

306. But I can guarantee if some nazi or racist singer sang at a Hillary

event...the outcry would be overwhelming. With Saint Obama, they just shrug it off. These are the same people who probably shrugged off Matthew Shepherd's brutal murder.

Apparently, some forms of bigotry are wrong and some forms aren't even bigotry at all. They are completely acceptable and we are all just perverts for daring to love someone of the same sex.

[Horse with no Name]

193. Oh come on now Buffy

Just "get over it", will you?:sarcasm:

[Bluenorthwest]

195. Not one guy who perfomed

As much as you'd like to push your view, it was not one guys performance at a concert. It was perfomance by 4 or 5 gay bashers at an Official Obama Campaign event. McClurkin spoke against gays at length. Under a sign that said 'Stand for Changeg' and of course McClurkin's famous song is 'Stand'....
You are lacking in facts or simply wishing to avoid the truth.

[Jamastiene]

307. Thank you and

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Jamastiene]

303. Uhm, he would have had way more people had he embraced

the GLBT community. Instead, he "chose" the ex-gay community. Think about the numbers there for a minute.

He made his bed with hate mongers. Let him and the rest of you Obama worshipers lie in it as far as I'm concerned. It'll be no different whether we get him or McCain as president. Either way, we're getting a goddamn Republican on January 20th, 2009. Thanks for nothing, assholes.

[Sapphocrat]

113. And you're not gay...

...and you've never been exactly sympathetic toward LGBT DUers to begin with, so you have little room to tell us where to get off.

Can you possibly just can your lectures for the time being -- especially in a thread where LGBTs are trying to pull themselves together? Do you think you can scrape up that much sensitivity for a change?

[Jamastiene]

309. People like that are heartless bastards.

They are most selfish people on the face of the planet. "If it doesn't affect me, the person asking for rights should just get over it." They'll never have sympathy or empathy or sensitivity for anyone but themselves.

[Bluenorthwest]

191. 'a damn concert performer'

Damned, yes obviously. But to characterize McClurkin as just a performer ignores the actual issue which is that he is a 'minister' with a church and he preaches against gays, and he did so at Obama events. He goes on 700 Club and bashes gays, not in song but in spoken word. As a 'performer' his most famous show was GOP Convention 2004 where he sang to and for George W Bush on national television. Donnie Wept for W.
So this man is a Republican activist, a minister and a promoter of anti-gay religious bigotry, and he does all of those things in addition to being a 'damn concert performer'. Intellectual dishonesty is what you are playing, because if McClurkin had merely performed a concert we would not be having this discussion right now. That is the fact. You are defending a 700 Club staple and one of GW Bush's strongest boosters.
And one more thing- it is not just McClurkin. It is also Kirbyjon Caldwell 'spiritual advisor' to GW Bush, also with Obama, also an ex-gay bigot. Called up Bush to ask permission to boost Obama. Bush said sure thig Rev. It is also Hezikiah Walker, another singer/preacher of hate. It is alos Sister Siser, yet another singing act that equates gays to murderers.
What is the difference between these Fundies and the ones that the GOP uses to drive wedges? As you see it? How is McClurkin different from Dobson?

[boricua79]

182. what else does the guy have to say?

I don't see Hillary going doing much beyond saying don't hate gays.

[miceelf]

202. Let's be honest

BOTH of the leading candidates (clinton and obama) have appeared frequently in churches lead by homophobic "ministers." Clinton's hands are no cleaner on this issue.

Add DOMA to the equation and the fact that at least Obama goes to Black churches and confronts homophobia directly (something I have NEVER seen Clinton do), and I really don't see how Obama is the worst one in this group.

[boricua79]

250. thank you...these guys have to run a NATIONAL campaign

If Obama or Clinton both came out with strong comments in support of gays and gay marriages, they'd get the gay vote, and then lose a big chunk of people who, unfortunately, can't get over that issue. Obama specifically, would lose a lot of independents and Republicans who like him right now and who are not comfortable (yet) with gay marriage or supporting issues of interest to gays.

Much smarter to get in office, and then persuade the country, through reasoning and laws, to change their cultural perceptions.

You can fight a rottweiler or you can subdue him with a doggie treat and get by him. Which way is it gonna be?

[miceelf]

254. I don't necesarily agree.

I don't think it's right and I don't think it's wise. But they both do it. Equally. That was my main point. Obama at least talks about gay rights when it is not to his advantage.

[boricua79]

263. talking about it is one thing

making it known that it's a major, serious point of your platform is guaranteeing that you will become the lighting rod candidate for the anti-homosexual voter base.

Consider how Lou Dobbs has become the anti-immigration television spokesperson, even though many disagree with Bush's immigration policies. You can "burn yourself out" by becoming too much of one thing. Obama cannot keep harping on his pro-gay rights position, lest he attract the attention of the negative voter base. And there's a lot of people who would vote for Obama NOW, who would take away the vote if they felt Obama was too pushy on gay issues. THat's just the way it is. If Obama started talking seriously about the discrepancies between black and whites, socio-economically speaking (which is a reality and should be addressed), he'd be tarred and feathered as the "black" candidate, and he would have NEVER won any of the Red States he's won in this campaign. He had to run a smart campaign and get away from race, so that he can deal with its consequences WHEN in power.

Strategically, it's best for gays to support Obama, and then pressure him for positive change ONCE he gets in power.

[miceelf]

265. well

strategically you may be right. i was speaking morally, and that's a whole separate question.

My main point was that neither of the two cnadidates have been a profile in courage, and if one chooses to focus on McClurkin instead of the raft of homophobic preachers Sen. Clinton campaigns and worships with, one may be disappointed.

[NMMNG]

268. We've already seen how Obama reacts under pressure

When it comes down to LGBTs vs homophobes he kowtows to the homophobes. Why should we believe it will be any different once he gets into office? He'll still need to keep his homophobic supporters happy then. He'll have re-election to worry about. He'll need support for myriad things. If he's afraid to piss them off now why will he risk pissing them off then?

He's already shown where his loyalties lie, and it isn't with LGBTs.

[boricua79]

283. unless we're talking Kucinich

you'll never see a major American candidate make it a big issue of their campaign to support homosexual marriages and the issues that are of interest to homosexual voters. It's just reality. We're living in a profoundly intolerant society that is profoundly ignorant on a lot of things. Homosexuality and the lives of homosexuals is one of them. To work to eradicate ignorance on these issues will take time, and no candidate with some strategic sense is going to trade a small, minority community in this country for a larger voter base that they can eventually persuade and educate from a position of power.

If that's something you can't understand, you will be waiting a very long time (maybe not your lifetime) for a candidate to make it a big point of their platform to support gays.

[NMMNG]

286. I see where you're coming from now

"Homosexual" "Homosexuality". Is that what they call it in your church?


Sorry, we don't need to be delivered from homosexuality.

[boricua79]

291. that's very pathetic of you

to try to turn this rational discussion into one in which i'm some kind of homophobe.

I tried discussing it with you at length. So I'm going to give you the answer that most people are going to give you:

Buddy, get over it. Your nature and your sexual orientation will not be the top ticket on the agenda, and won't be one until a very long time from now. And if you think Hillary is losing sleep about gays in this country, you've got a long life of disappointments ahead of you.

I'm done discussing this with you.

[Jamastiene]

310. Precisely.

The Obama supporters are going to be very shocked if he ends up as President. I'm making my copy & paste text file now. It simply says, "We told you so." I had better not hear one complaint out of them either or they are getting ye olde copy and paste from me.

[miceelf]

318. Well

What would it take for YOU to admit you're wrong about Obama? I hope you are wrong, BTW. But what would it take?

And, incidentally, what do you expect from a President Clinton on gay rights?

[ruggerson]

34. Please don't insult us - go away

[newmajority]

58. Don't insult me either

I don't keep track of this board's demographics, so I don't know or care who is white, black, male, female, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Spaghetti Monsteranian, gay, straight, bisexual, transgendered, or whatever other categories one might use to describe themselves, unless they identify themselves as such.

The most important thing here is that we're all Democrats and that we all move forward from the divisive politics of the last 28 years. It's the BushClintons who have encouraged those divisions, through the efforts of people like Lee Atwater, Karl Rove and Mark Penn. None of those guys are on the Obama campaign.

I despise homophobia. I look at someone like Donnie McClurkin or Ted Haggard (or Larry Craig, for that matter) and I see sad pathetic sons of bitches who can't get over self hatred that has been deeply programmed into their own minds. If I believed Barack Obama actually had that mentality himself, I could no more support him than I could support Fred Phelps. But Obama has said the opposite. He speaks of eradicating homophobia, NOT "curing" homosexuals. I don't see how anyone could confuse the two.

[ruggerson]

63. I don't believe he would push for a damn thing for us

he may sign ENDA if it crosses his desk.

That's about it.

Oh, and we'll get decent SC justices, which twenty years from now will be a big deal, once Scalia and Thomas die.

[cboy4]

89. I don't trust that he'd even sign ENDA, if it comes down

to politics.

[LostinVA]

181. He wouldn't

[newmajority]

100. That's what a President does, signs laws.

Obama's whole thing about "change" is that he cannot bring it, but we can. It's similar to the Howard Dean message from 2003 "I don't have the power to take our country back, but YOU do."

If the PEOPLE demand that laws be put on the books, then a majority of Congress passes that law, and then the President signs it, it becomes a law. (I don't need to go dig up "I'm just a bill" on YouTube, do I? )

The PEOPLE must lead on this issue, but we also need to have those in Washington DC who will do what the people want. The Clintons and the DLC have had their chance to do so, and they failed.

[ruggerson]

125. No, a President leads

and there are many things a POTUS can do by executive order.

[newmajority]

147. I don't believe executive orders are constitutional

And obviously they have been abused by Chimpy. Would you want President Obama to sign something into law via Executive Order and then have someone challenge the Constitutionality of Executive Orders, possibly overturning what Obama signed in the process.

For example, I'd like to see Attorney General Edwards get a lot of Chimpy's crap taken off the books using this strategy, but I wouldn't want to lose anything good in the process.

[miceelf]

203. BUT

getting crappy SC judges will be a problem a lot sooner than that if John Paul Stevens dies.

[Phx_Dem]

210. Here's the thing I can't get past

When you say:

"The most important thing here is that we're all Democrats and that we all move forward from the divisive politics of the last 28 years."

I'm supposed to give up my liberal/progressive ideals and move to the center with Obama or Clinton because "we all need to move forward....?"

It seems to me that if there was ever a time that the dems had a mandate it is right now, and yet our candidates are running to the middle as fast as they can.

This notion that Dems need to move past "divisive politics" has a real touch of magical thinking to it, given that Republicans don't share that sentiment.

[Bake]

247. Then why in the living hell did he put McClurkin ON STAGE AT HIS EVENT????

Jesus God Almighty! Talk about drinking the fucking Kool-Aid!

You just don't have a good answer for that, do you. You just don't. Because there is none.

Bake

[TankLV]

37. Umm - we know no such thing. The Clintons ARE the best friends GBLT have ever had - EVER. Period.

Name one thing that the Clintons ever did to "throw us under the bus" like obama had/did REPEATEDLY...name one...

[TheWraith]

48. What has Obama done that's as bad as DOMA and DADT?

Please, somebody tell me where this list of horrible crimes that Obama's committed is, because all anybody seems to be able to present is one appearence at a concert by a singer he likes but openly disagreed with.

[TankLV]

62. GOTCHA! You fell into my trap PERFECTLY, and as EXPECTED!!!

You DO know, don't you, that DADT was THE REPUKES COMPROMISE RESPONSE TO CLINTON'S FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS WHEN GAINING OFFICE OF INTENDING TO END THE BAN OF GAYS SERVING IN THE MILITARY? No, of course not. And, only AFTER THE REPUKES TRIED TO GET A CONSTITUTIONAL AMMENDMENT OFFICIALLY SANCTIONING GAY DISCRIMINATION INTO THE CONSTITUTION did this compromise get proposed and passed to PREVENT SAID AMMENDMENT?!!!!

Same with DOMA - the REPUKES wanted ANOTHER constitutional ammendment BANNING GAY MARRIAGE AND PARTNERSHIPS ANYWHERE IN THE US - and Clinton and the Dems crafted a COMPROMISE bill to STOP this resulting in the DOMA...

You really are a piece of work - you really are...

I love debating with simpletons - the arguments are so easy to win...

[TheWraith]

71. Ohh, you "got me" with facts I already knew. I also know some things you didn't mention.

Including the fact that a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage was never going to be able to pass, meaning there was no need for DOMA as a compromise. Its major value was bolstering the Clinton admin's moderate credentials going into the '96 election.

I fully agree that DADT was a necessary compromise: although you're wrong that it was their first order of business. However, that hasn't stopped gay activists, such as right here on DU, from beating the Clinton admin up and down for it. I'd like to know, when did it go from being something to beat on them about to such a mark of pride?

And you still haven't been able to come up with a single real thing that Obama did that's so awful.

[TankLV]

85. No gay activists don't - only you obamabots try to...

and "was never going to be able to pass" was No such thing - I LIVED thru it and have a PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY BACKED BY VIDEO, AUDIO, AND PRINT RECORDS of the times...

and look it up - it was in his first order of business within the first days of taking office...

and of course TO YOU what obama did is not so awful - we're expendable to people like you...

McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin McGurkin (spelling intentional, cause I know you're gonna nit pick that one next to distract)...

and you evidently DID NOT "KNOW" or you wouldn't try to repeat your LIES...

you're time is UP - I'm done arguing with idiots who get PUNKED repeatedly with their LIES and continue to lamely try to defend the indefensible...and spew the idiotic...

[NMMNG]

101. Do yourself a favor, as I did

Put the hateful attack dog on ignore. :hug:

[TheWraith]

102. Okay, so you don't have any facts to argue with. Nevermind then.

Oh, by the way, I lived through the '90s too. Amending the constitution wasn't gonna happen. Just like I've been on DU for years, and seen DADT railed against over, and over, and people complaining about how Clinton buckled, and how it never should have been law.

"we're expendable to people like you"... Making a whole lot of unwarranted assumptions there, about me, my sexual identity, my character, and giving insight into your apparent martyr complex.

I don't have any interest in this anymore, so good bye and good luck. I'm sorry that irrational hatred has got such a grip on you.

[Jamastiene]

314. Damn, I wish I could recommend this post.

Well said. :thumbsup:

[cboy4]

137. The single real thing that Obama did that's so awful

is allow McClurkin to perform.

Do you have a learning disability?

You don't get to decide what's so awful.

We do.

[NMMNG]

148. Funny how Big Dog says "Jesse Jackson" and "Fairy Tale"

People here go fucking ape shit. Did any of the LGBT people say, Get over it.? Did any LGBT DUers say, You're making too big a deal of this.? Did any of us say, It was only one guy shooting off his mouth, what's the big deal??


No we didn't, because we don't get to decide what or what is not an issue to the AA community. Can anybody here give us the same fucking courtesy? For once? Please?

[cboy4]

155. It know...it's like

:wtf:

[Zhade]

146. So those things were good in your eyes?

Slightly-less-discriminating discrimination is still harmful.

[Hieronymus]

117. Thanks for that. I fail to see where Hillary would do more for gays ..

than Obama.
He's running to the left of Hillary, and my guess he'll be more so after election.

[More Than A Feeling]

10. Whenever the "Hope" buzz threatens to become overwhelming

I remember where Obama stood when the votes hit the ballot in South Carolina, and it wasn't with gays. It was with "ex-gays." It's one of the reasons why I haven't been able to call myself an "Obama Supporter" after John Edwards dropped out.

[NMMNG]

44. Thank you ,

I'm glad somebody gets it. Where Obama stood then is where he'll stand later. He has made that blindingly apparent to all who choose to see.

[readmoreoften]

93. South Carolina pushed him over the edge. Hate gave him that extra lil' nudge.

Game well-played. No "hope" for us.

[NMMNG]

110. The thing is, he didn't need to fuck us over to get those votes

He could have had them without the Embrace the Homophobia Change tour. But he chose to take the low road instead because he thought Hillary might have a chance of taking SC. That just proves that he'll stoop to the vilest tactics when he feels the pressure. So why should we expect him to do anything different should he get into the WH?

[BlackVelvet04]

13. I'm really sorry.

It sucks that the GLBT community has to feel that nobody represents them.

[NMMNG]

159. Thank you

:hug:

The current system isn't working so we need to find another way. Either make it work or work outside it.

[msongs]

14. obama cites scriptures to deny glbt equality. not sure what clinton's logic is nt

[QC]

15. Yep, Obama does even more godtalk than Bush himself, but for some reason

it's very bad when Bush does it but very good when Obama does it.

[krabigirl]

21. yep

[QC]

23. Of course, that's only one of many principals they gladly sell down the river

when their beloved enters into the picture. I've never seen anything like it: suddenly Social Security is going broke, universal health care is bad, charter schools are good, cuddling up with Republicans is good, etc. when their candidate declares them such.

There's something really creepy about it.

[BlackVelvet04]

76. while I agree that it's creepy

I would go further to say it's hypocritical and stupid. Just plain downright dumber than shit.

[TankLV]

39. you got that right...

[newmajority]

24. What the Hell does that mean?

Are you trying to say that Obama throws out Leviticus 18:22 in the middle of his stump speeches? Since when is he using scriptures to deny equality?

He's doing just the opposite from what I've heard. He's saying that homophobia (among other fears) is something that we need to get rid of in this country, if we are serious about moving forward.

[theHandpuppet]

28. I've never heard him quote the scriptures myself

But this was pretty close:

"I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been."

When you invoke the name of Dick Cheney and "2,000 religious leaders" to validate your position that pretty much seals it. We all know how well the "states' rights" position worked in the days of slavery and segregation. They only ended when the federal government stepped in and that's not something Obama is willing to do. Not to say that Hillary would do it either, but this whole "hope and change" train has left us standing at the platform.

[TheWraith]

33. Even when Cheney and those 2000 religious leaders agree NOT to ban gay marriage?

Really? That's your great, unacceptable tipping point? Actually agreeing with Cheney that states should be able to allow gay marriages?

[TankLV]

52. Boy you are a piece of repuke work...

By trying to spin the REPUKES' support of "states rights" - it's NOT to "allow" gay marriages - but to BAN THEM OUTRIGHT...

and anybody who believes this the shit you're trying to spew - which is the OPPOSITE of why they're pushing for the "states" is an IDIOT.

AN IDIOT!!!!

GOOD GOD PEOPLE - YOU OBAMABOTS ARE SO FULL OF CLINTON HATRED THAT YOU NOW JUST MAKE ANYTING UP - EVEN AGREEING WITH DICK CHEENEY AND THE REPUKES TO TRY TO DEFEND obama...!!!

[TheWraith]

77. I'm not the one shouting and using multiple exclamation points.

And technically, individual states can't ban gay marriages any more than they already do, while a state-by-state approach would mean that marriages performed in more progressive states would have to be legally recognized by other states, as per US code.

[TankLV]

99. umm - no they're not - that already is prohibited...look it up...

gay marriages are the ONLY exception allowed...

and you can't deny that the repuke's intention of using the "states" route is anything other than an attempt to get states to officially descriminate where they can't succeed in getting the FEDS to do so, THANKS IN LARGE PART TO PEOPLE LIKE THE CLINTONS...

PUNKED AGAIN...

[Zhade]

150. Here's the thing: they don't have the right to attack our inherent right to marriage.

NT!

[noamnety]

287. I don't think you get the concept of state laws.

throwing it back to the states individually does more than allowing states to ban gay marriage - it's a way to continue to deny federal benefits.

[newmajority]

80. Hillary Clinton on gay marriage

On December 7, 2003, in an interview with John Roberts of CBS News, Senator Clinton expressed her opposition to same-sex marriage while affirming her support for some form of civil unions for homosexual couples: "I think that the vast majority of Americans find to be something they can't agree with. But I think most Americans are fair. And if they believe that people in committed relationships want to share their lives and, not only that, have the same rights that I do in my marriage, to decide who I want to inherit my property or visit me in a hospital, I think that most Americans would think that that's fair and that should be done."

In the same interview with Roberts, Clinton expressed opposition to the Federal Marriage Amendment, a proposed constitutional amendment that would have defined marriage as the union of one man and one woman, implicitly banning same-sex marriage. "I think that would be a terrible step backwards. It would be the first time we've ever amended the Constitution to deny rights to people. And I think that should be left to the states. You know, I find it hard to believe in one program I'm agreeing with Newt Gingrich, now I'm about to agree with Dick Cheney. But I think Vice President Cheney's position on gay marriage is the right one."

Now how is Hillary's position any different?

[TheWraith]

86. It's not, but apparently Hillary is God, so we should just keep quiet. NT

[TankLV]

103. over 700 posts in just 12 days...hmmm...

[Jamastiene]

315. I wonder how many of the trolls slipped in and got over 1000 posts

before the 3 OP limit was put in place. DU is going to be a drastically different place if they don't get caught.

[LostinVA]

321. Oodles and oodles

See the "Edwards is a twinkie" thread yesterday?

[Jamastiene]

336. Yes, they disgust me.

It's raining elephants on the big tent. Not sure how much more it can stand.

[TheWraith]

29. Don't bother. They can't prove what they say, because they're either making it up or being lied to.

A handful of people here have decided that Obama is the anti-gay candidate and choose to wail and gnash their teeth about it in loud voices at every possible opportunity.

The truth is, nobody can cite even one instance of Obama saying or doing anything anti-gay, and he even went out of his way to denounce the views of an "ex-gay" singer who was performing at a community outreach concert his campaign was involved in in the Carolinas. But hey, reality doesn't beat the opportunity to complain about something.

[ruggerson]

41. Are you aware that he declined to be associated with Gavin Newsom

after Newsom bravely performed an historical act of civil disobedience by unilaterally legalizing same sex marriage in San Fran?

Willie Brown shortly thereafter threw a fundraiser for Obama, and Obama specifically told him he did not want his photograph taken with Newsom.

Whatever happened to the "fierce urgency of now?" Does that not apply to gays and lesbians?

[QC]

46. Didn't wanna get those fagcooties on him. n/t

[TheWraith]

61. Newsom is a spotlight type. His gay marriage move was as much about his own image

as it was about principle, which is why he didn't wait a year and maybe have a Democrat in the White House who wouldn't have cooperated in shutting him down. Newsom has a long history of trying to inject himself into the national spotlight.

[TankLV]

70. ahh - ANOTHER example you damanded and got, and then you're dismissive of it...

but you CAN'T DENY THE SLIGHT...

[ruggerson]

73. That doesn't cut it

Newsom is MLK to many of us. For Obama to have refused to be publicly associated with him is cowardly.

And this is a guy who speaks so eloquently of the need for justice now. But when it comes to us and our issues - well, then maybe the "fierce urgency of later on."

[no name no slogan]

249. Gavin Newsom the "MLK of the gay community"?

Harvey Milk is spinning in his grave.

[TankLV]

42. so hiring McGurkin REPEATEDLY doesn't count as even ONE instance to you? Interesting...

not to say all the OTHER times he's slapped us...

[TheWraith]

51. Where "repeatedly"? Provide proof of all these horrible infractions.

I'm guessing you can't, because they don't exist.

[ruggerson]

56. Read my post above about Newsom

if Obama can't even be SEEN with a pro gay politician, you have to be out of your mind if you think he's going to fight for us.

[TankLV]

66. I just gave you a FEW when you said NONE existed and you now SHIFT the goal line...

look to ruggerson's post for the more examples...

GOTCHA again...

simpletons get caught every time...

[TheWraith]

83. Actually, you gave me none, and you're rapidly losing my interest.

I have no desire to debate someone who's clearly taken a fact-free position.

[theHandpuppet]

149. Then please leave

I didn't start this thread just to entertain you. You're here just to make a lot of people here even more upset than they already are.

SO GET OUT.

[TankLV]

104. ummm - we've cited MANY instances that you CAN'T REFUTE - YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION...

PUNKED AGAIN...

[TankLV]

94. in so may words - CODE words to his "base" - YES...

[NMMNG]

16. Pretty much what you said

I've been prepared for the possibility of Obama making it to the GE. While I'm voting for Hillary it's not like I'm all wrapped up in her. She's a politician and of the two left standing she's the one I most approve of. That's all there is to it.

Should it go to Obama I'll likely take what I've previously put into major politics and redirect it to other things. I've got plenty on my plate that could benefit from that time, money and effort.

[theHandpuppet]

25. So what do we do?

I'm honest about this. Nothing seems to work.

[Sapphocrat]

109. I already know what I'm going to do.

I've mentioned it more than a few times, but, as most posts get lost in all the noise, I'll say it again:

If Obama gets the nomination, I'm going to do everything in my power to log off DU once and for all -- but not out of spite or because I'm a sore loser. On the contrary, I am fully prepared for an Obama win; after being shattered by the November '04 election (I am dead serious when I say there was barely a waking hour for a full week afterward that I wasn't crying or close to it), and losing all faith in any "leader" after being let down and then completely abandoned by John Kerry (whom I had to force myself to vote for in the first place), there's little that can happen in this race to make me feel that bad again. I'll be deeply disappointed, but it won't feel as if the world has just ended, the way it did in 2004. (It helps, too, that I am not at all emotionally invested in Hillary; should Obama lose the GE, I'll actually feel very sorry for his supporters, who, having invested so much emotional energy into the man and pinning such sky-high "hope" on his salvation of Planet Earth, have a much longer way to fall than I do.)

Anyway... I'll do my best to leave DU behind, in part because (no matter how well-intentioned many are) the salt-in-the-wounds gloating by Obama supporters will be absolutely unbearable -- but mostly because I already came to the realization some time ago that there really isn't any room for me in this mythical "big tent" Democrats keep talking about. In fact, I have come to understand that there really is no place in the national political process for me at all.

This isn't whining, or taking my ball and going home. In truth, one thing the last seven-plus years has done for me is give me a much thicker skin. That may sound like horse puckey to some reading this, but honestly, while I can get just as angry as I ever did about individual issues, I'm past the shock, denial, bargaining, and depression stages, and am about halfway through resignation, on my way to acceptance. (Of course it's been a grieving process; what can you experience but razor-sharp, abject grief when you finally come to terms with the fact that just about everybody's lied to you, and that you're never going to come close to your most treasured American dream, which in my case is simply being a first-class citizen? It's still hard to accept, but at least I'm not kidding myself anymore: I understand that I'm never going to know what that feels like.)

Anyway... In all this, I've come to realize that I can pour my heart and soul into national politics for the rest of my life, and I'll wind up with nothing but a broken heart, and a broken soul.

If I am to do any good in this world at all, my energy will be better spent on the local (and perhaps state) level, focusing almost exclusively on LGBT issues. That doesn't mean I'll stop caring about poverty, or education, or anything like that -- I'll still vote to tax myself so that someone else can eat, or get a degree, and I have no qualms about volunteering when various opportunities come up. But I understand that if I don't take care of "my own," nobody else will. I really don't believe I will see marriage equality in my lifetime, and even the chance of seeing a fully-inclusive ENDA someday is slim. But I'll have far greater effect narrowing my focus and redirecting my energy -- and my time, and what little money I have -- back into the LGBT community.

Selfish? Like I said, nobody else is going to do it. And since my attention always keeps turning, quite naturally, toward issues specifically concerning LGBT youth -- suicide, homelessness, high school GSA's, and the like -- I don't see it as very selfish at all. I only wish that when I was a teenager, scared to death of coming out, I'd known even one gay adult I could look to for encouragement, let alone guidance. I want to be that adult I didn't have around. And if even one thing I can do makes a positive difference in the life of just one kid, I'll be more than satisfied.

So, that's what I'm planning to do. I know it's not the answer you were looking for -- I think you'd rather hear a plan for making our collective voice heard within the Democratic Party, and getting legislation passed, but I don't have one. I've tried everything I know.

And you know Freud's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results every time. I've been doing the same thing over and over again since I was in my late teens, and nothing ever changes.

I'm not saying I'll leave the Democratic Party -- it's a very strong possibility, but I haven't made that decision yet. But I do know that what I'm doing isn't working, and I need to do something else.

Oh, and in answer to your question in the OP: Pretty darned low right now, but almost Zen-like in the contented knowledge that I will get through this grave disappointment. As I always say, if I survived Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II, I can survive President McCain (because that, I'm sorry to say, is what I sincerely believe we're looking at come November).

Btw, I wasn't planning on posting anything tonight -- my long, long thread yesterday took a good bit of posting energy, and I do need to actually work once in a while -- but it's funny: I'm posting more on DU lately than I have in many, many months. In writing this post, I realized why I'm doing it: I know I won't be posting on DU much longer, and I guess I want to have one last run. It's a bittersweet kind of release.

[theHandpuppet]

118. Thank you, Sapphocrat

I think you have given me much to think about and perhaps a new direction for my "political" self. It's probably time for me to move on as well and redirect my time and energies. I would certainly miss your voice and that of some others here. But you're right, we've got to stop beating ourselves in the head with that hammer. It isn't going to happen for us and we haven't enough people with the political will and support to change that. But there is need out there and we can make a contribution in other ways and to other gays.

[susankh4]

168. As the mom of a gay son, and a lifetime Dem....

I just want to say "thanks." Thanks to everyone on this board who is calling Obama out on this issue.

And... don't give up! We in Ohio... are a little bit sadistic. We have a history of lashing out at "frontrunners." And... now that Obama has been announced "frontrunner" by the MSM.... he may be in for a bit of a lashing. Hillary will likely win OH, we already know that. Now, with this "frontrunner" title given to Obama, I am pulling for a landslide. John Glenn has just endorsed Hillary, too.

I am personally reserving the right to vote "present" in November, if Obama gets the nomination and does not have Hillary on the ticket with him. I can't bring myself to vote Repub... even tho I think the LGBT community may get a better shake from McCain. (He will just leave you alone at least. He won't parade around with the likes of McClurkin. And we know that he will go against his own party in this matter.)

I hope you don't mind a few words from a straight ally. My son is 26. He came out at age 14. So I have been at this quite a long time.

Again, thanks for speaking up!

[terrya]

171. It hurts to read this.

I hate seeing good people leave DU. But I can certainly understand your reasons why.

Thanks for expressing beautifully what some people (like myself) also feel.

[LostinVA]

184. Haruka and I have talked about this very thing the last two days

And, I'm afraid that for the first time since I turned 18 in the 80's and proudly registered to vote, I'll sit out an election. Because I can't vote for someone whom I think despises us, which HRC, for all her faults, doesn't.

[susankh4]

296. Don't sit it out!

Go to the polls and vote for everything else! Just leave the Prez. vote blank.

This sends a clearer message. It says 'here's a voter who did not like any of the candidates available for Prez. but still turned out to vote for the issues, local offices etc.

Hang in there! I am not giving up on Hillary yet. Here's why:

Excellent study for those who care about demographic trend studies:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2008/02/the_democratic_race_moving_for.html

Plus:

1) It is looking increasingly likely that FLA and MI will seeking a DNC hearing to re-allocate their delegates, and some kind of agreement will be struck.

2) Ohio has a long and rather sadistic history of giving a lashing to "frontrunners." If we stay true to form... and Hillary comes to Ohio as the underdog, she *could* take Ohio in a landslide. No guarantees. But look at the current polling numbers:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/oh/ohio_democratic_primary-263.html

[LostinVA]

322. You're right, you're right

[susankh4]

325. It is the equivalanet of voting "present"

and the Dems can't fault us for THAT now, can they?

[LostinVA]

332. hehehehe

I am soooo using that!

[Marrah_G]

340. please do not sit out- not this election

We need every vote- no matter who the Nom is. Otherwise McCain will be appointing Supreme court justices. Those justices can hurt you more then any President can.

[LizW]

320. Profoundly heartwrenching post

:hug:, Sapphocrat.

[NMMNG]

120. Pretty much what Sapph said

All I'd add is that if anybody comes soliciting money, support, votes or whatever you tell them they aren't getting a damn thing unless you see action. When they start waffling and giving you bullshit about why they can't put out then tell them you're sorry but neither can you. When they find out that LGBTs aren't going to just keep supplying them with unlimited backing for crumbs they'll wake up.

If all else fails, walk. The Republicans obviously aren't going to give us what we deserve and if the Dems aren't either then screw them.

We're not powerless and it's time we stopped letting people make us think we are. If we band together and fight we can bring about real change.

[tedoll78]

20. I hear you..

As far as GLBT isuses go, my main question of our candidates: what kind of court appointees will you nominate?

I'm a pessimist: there won't be enough courageous politicians in the right offices to bring about serious, substantial change as far as GLBT rights go. So unelected, lifetime jurist appointees are our best option in many cases. The cowardly politicians who sign anti-equality laws and/or remain silent on our causes are often the same folks who appoint justices who are often brave enough to overturn such laws. It's a kind of "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" situation that GLBT voters have with Democrats, and I'm willing to play along since it currently seems to be our most realistic route of success.

So I'm worried about the Supreme Court.

The court's current composition:
- Conservative: Scalia-Thomas-Alito-Roberts
- Swing: Kennnedy
- Liberal: Souter-Breyer-Stevens-Ginsburg

One of my worst nightmares for the past 8 years has been to wake-up and find that 80-something-years-old John Paul Stevens has died for some reason or another. (Another: that Ginsburg's cancer emerges from remission.) Had Bush appointed one replacement, we'd have a majority of absolute conservatives on the high court, and we'd be in the rather distasteful position of hoping for one of them to "vacate the bench" by one means or another.

I'm a bit more comforted by our control of the Senate, but for this one judiciary issue alone I'll vote for a ham sandwich Democrat before I vote in any other way.

[Straight Shooter]

22. Not a GLBT, but a big supporter of your rights.

Barack's dog whistle to homophobics and fence-straddlers was the deal-breaker for me.

The GLBT community is the n-word of the new century. We all know it, and Barack knows it, and he has the power to do something about it. Why doesn't he use that silver-tongued preacher rhetoric of his and convince people it's right and proper to give the GLBT community the equal rights they deserve? He enthralls the masses, they practically prostrate themselves at his feet, but he never exhorts them to do the right thing by you all.

You know why he doesn't try to change them on the campaign trail, why he doesn't speak up on your behalf, why he gives them bubblegum rhetoric about hope and change and unity? Because in his heart of hearts, he believes you don't deserve equal rights, and that's why he lacks the courage to stand up for you.

He ain't no different than the people who give you dirty looks when you hold your lover's hand in public, and I don't care how his supporters spin his cheap promises. They'll find out soon enough what you already know.

I apologize for ranting. I hate injustice.

[theHandpuppet]

143. Thanks for the rant

It was a good 'un! :thumbsup:

[Straight Shooter]

219. That was my calm public voice. You should hear me go off when I'm speaking with friends about it.

In honor of your thread, I just changed my sig pic, as a reminder for those who choose to ignore the ugly side of the obama campaign.

[ChiciB1]

26. I'm A White Female Heterosexual Female & I Want To Say Something!

For the life of me I just DON'T UNDERSTAND what it is about people who seem to treat "gender issues" as they do! It really really disgusts me! I know about 6 women who live in my neighborhood who are lesbians and most people here KNOW who they are!

I may not know the man up the street, but I rarely hear anything about HIM. I have a chocolate Lab and walk my dog all the time, and while the issue doesn't come up all the time, IT DOES COME UP!!

Sometimes while talking to them I throw in some sarcasm and say... "do they have 4 legs and 6 green arms? They instantly get "my message" then act a little dumb founded. Sometimes I put the spotlight on another household that have kids who are really out of control and ask them if they KNOW about them. Other times I say, "well as long as we're "gossiping" I happen to know that a certain person is having their home foreclosed on, or that a couple is getting divorced, did YOU know THAT?"

I've lived in this house since 1984 so by now people KNOW what my views are. I can't imagine what it must be like for you, having not walked in your shoes, but I want you to know that I will NOT tolerate anyone who denigrates a whole group of people simply because they aren't heterosexual. Inter-racial marriage is commonplace these days, people living together and having children without marriage is tolerated today... and yet when it comes to GLBT they are as obnoxious as they come!

I just had to add this, because to me people are people and as long as they are minding their own business and don't "rob & pillage" (throwing that in because it's an outdated comment) or are destructive, I DON'T give a shit! And the "they" I'm referring to as YOU, are people in general!

And I want to say I'm sorry that so many people are JUST ignorant! I won't stand having someone put another down for having a different sexual preference. It's late, but I could go on... just wanted to have my say and to let you know that there are those of us who are heterosexual and agree that there is some real stupidity going on.

[ruggerson]

68. thank you

:)

[lachattefolle]

174. Ditto!

[stillrockin]

30. I give a rat's ass. You are not alone.

Why are you disappointed? Is it because you're a Hillary supporter? If so, please know that all the Obama supporters I know are very much in favor of equal rights for gays. I grew up with a gay brother, we are very close and gay issues are extremely important to me. I have fought for decades for you and will NEVER stop.
:hug:

[theHandpuppet]

60. Thank you for your support...BUT

Until folks start pressuring their candidate(s) to make a difference for us, I really don't care who you support. You're obviously willing to vote for someone who has publicly slapped gays in the face and not apologized for it, nor has he expressed any plans to rectify our continued oppression. In fact, he has stated that he personally believes that marriage should be between a man and woman and that any rights for gays should be left to the states. Well do you know how well that has worked for me? My partner and I, because of the recently passed, draconian laws of the gay-hating state of Virginia, lost our joint health benefits a couple of years ago. I have MS and can't get or afford a private policy. I'm terrified of even getting sick. We had to write out special legal documents just to be able to visit one another in the hospital. We were stripped of any and all rights that, according to their lawmakers, mirrored anything that might be afforded exclusively by heterosexual marriage.

While a few states are passing some laws in our favor, others are stripping them away. Some of us are in a worse position now than we were years ago. And even more states are seeking "marriage amendments" and other laws to further strip of of our last shreds of human decency.

Hope and change? For whom? To me they are just words.

I'm sorry to go off on you -- it's not you personally but the whole damn fight, year after year after year. I appreciate your support but right now I don't feel much like hopping the hope train.

[stillrockin]

92. I do really care about your situation.

The first promise Bill Clinton broke in 1993 was to go back on his pledge to open up the military to gays. I do not believe Hillary will be any better. Talk is cheap, like you said. Obama will be pressured by people who will never give up. He is already incorporating positive speech about gays in his talks. It's not enough, I agree. I too live in VA and deplore the situation. I do what I can. I am so sorry you are not well. The situation with my brother is that his partner lives in England and the only way they can live together here is by entering the green card lottery every year. It's a depressing and soul killing way to live, to know that if one were a female there would be no problem. I hear his voice in your words. You are so right. Hope and change become just words after years of struggle. But please know that I in no way intend to minimize your pain and suffering. I just don't know what else to do but pick the guy I think we have the best chance of influencing and then getting behind him and pushing. Virginia is changing, albeit too slowly. We'll just have to keep the pressure on.

[Hoof Hearted]

138. Bullshit.,

self edited the rest.

[theHandpuppet]

141. I know you care

But like most people, including the GLBT community ourselves, we keep putting the cart before the horse. You have to demand the rights FIRST, not just give your vote away then hope you'll get a few crumbs as payback. It's got to come to a point where you demand real commitment before offering up your vote. It simply won't work any other way. We've learned that the hard way.

[Bluenorthwest]

201. Uniting American Families Act

Was the bill that would have allowed your brother to bring his partner to the US like hetrosexuals do every day. Senator Barack Obama voted NO on the Uniting American Families Act.
Did you know that? Voted NO on your brother bringing his partner home. NO.

[theHandpuppet]

335. Please give this information a bigger forum

I'm afraid it will get lost in this thread!

[terrya]

31. Same as you.

As a gay Democrat, I feel very demoralized right now.

In my heart, I know that neither Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama really gives a shit about us. We're to be used to be elected, then discarded. It will be "benign neglect" time when either one of them wins the White House.

I support Hillary, and will be prepared to vote for Obama if nominated. But neither one of them gives a damn about me as a gay American...nor about my and yours and other GLBT's demand for full equality. Fuck, look at their positions on same-sex marriage if you don't get that.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. I'm a voter, and I'd be proud to be seen with you.

You matter to me even if some of the candidates don't think you do.

In fact, some of the candidates don't care too much for a lot of what's important to me.

[Colobo]

45. So... voting for Obama is throwing gays under the bus?

I don't buy it.

[donheld]

57. Me neither

It just doesn't add up.

[TankLV]

72. of course you don't - we don't expect you to ever understand...

I suppose some of your best friends are gay, too...

[Colobo]

79. So in order to support gays, I have to vote for Hillary?

Is that what you mean?

[cboy4]

74. People who aren't used to being thrown under the

proverbial bus often times have difficulty understanding people with road rash all over their bodies.

[Colobo]

82. Mmm...

As a black Puerto Rican, I can tell you one or two things about being thrown under the bus both at home and over here...

You assume I don't understand...

[cboy4]

98. So, how would you feel if my candidate (Edwards)

allowed someone to perform who thought black Puerto Ricans are evil and a threat to children?

Somehow I don't think that would go over very well with you.

[Colobo]

111. Angry. I won't lie to you. I think Obama made a serious mistake

by letting Donnie McClurkin sing for him, and I can comprehend why many people were offended by it, to the point of not voting for him.

However, I personally believe Obama is not a bigot, and will do good things for all Americans. I refuse to believe the man has an agenda against any group in particular- I think his position on GLBT issues is not what it should be, but is very similar to Sen. Clinton's.

I can honestly understand why many are dissapointed with Barack, but I just, in my heart, don't see him as anything but a good man who will do great things for all of us. Maybe I'm blind, but I just don't see the bigot in him.

[cboy4]

133. Alright, well as long as you understand we have the

right to be angry.

I'm just tired of hearing from other Obama supporter imply that we're overreacting.

We didn't all take a poll to see whether we should be upset.

If so many gay people are angry, there must be a pretty important reason.

And I'm tired of the McClurkin issue being dismissed, both at the supporter level and the campaign level.

[Sapphocrat]

136. But, Katz, you don't understand.

And you never will.

As long as you're straight, you get full rights, whether you're a black Puerto Rican, a white Midwesterner, or a Vietnamese refugee in California.

I don't.

You're a first-class citizen of the United States.

I'm not.

People can discriminate against you, and treat you like dirt, and you have the full weight of the law -- state and federal -- behind you to rectify the situation and punish the offender.

I don't.

I know you want to understand, but you never will.

[DURHAM D]

261. I don't buy your black Puerto Rican profile -

you are the same person who said you voted for Bush twice and later said you are just 24 years old.

[jackson_dem]

345. That is amazing. How did Katzen do that?

[ruggerson]

78. You don't have to Katz

it's not your life that's being affected

[Colobo]

88. What you are saying hurts.

You are assuming I don't care. I do.

[ruggerson]

95. Ok, I accept that you do

and I think that's great. But, our skepticism is not unwarranted. Obama says some of the right things, but some of his actions are very worrisome to a lot of us. I will gladly vote for him over McCain if he's our nominee, but I'm sad because I don't think we're on his agenda.

[Colobo]

114. I'm with you- Democratic politicians should not be afraid of doing what's right

I mean, mainstream Dem politicians. There is a level of cowardice (yes, cowardice) among them, Obama and Clinton included, that prevents them from using their position to advance equality for one of the most brutally oppressed groups this nation has. And it's not fair at all.

[TankLV]

112. that's it in an nutshell, isn't it...

he's black - so he doesn't care that much about gay people - but let someone do something against him because he's BLACK, and sit back and watch him go to work.

We're just not that important to him as his BLACKNESS...

Don't we DARE equate gay EQUAL rights with the struggle for black civil rights. It's an isult to black people.

Got it. Thanks...

[ruggerson]

119. Well, to defend Katz

He thinks highly of his candidate, which is admirable. But I think it's sometimes hard to look at one's candidate through another's eyes. We see Obama very differently than a lot of folks here do. That doesn't make them bad people, it just means they have a tough time putting themselves in our shoes.

[Colobo]

126. Wow... I'm sorry you take it that way.

I try to do what I can, as an educator, a student and a citizen, to show my support to those causes I feel need to be supported. GLBT rights is one of them. I don't tell you this to say "I got gay friends too" or anything, but because you assume I don't care. I've seen how hard it is for many openly gay students to get respect from their classmates and even from most professors, and I've done what I can to stand up for them and with them in my classes, supporting and announcing their events, inviting their classmates to join or support GLBT activities in campus, I share with my students literature and art from GLBT Latin American artists to try to bring their perspective into our discussions...

Tank, maybe I'm not doing enough. Maybe there is still a lot wrong with me when it comes to GLBT issues... but I'm doing what I can.

I'm on your side...

[ruggerson]

131. I think that's great, Katz

truly!

:toast:

[theHandpuppet]

84. Oh?

So tell me how Obama specifically plans to right the injustices perpetuated upon millions of GLBT people in this country. Is it in his platform? Has he publicly stated what changes he will make for us? He's said he doesn't support gay marriage and thinks these issues are best left to the states. We know how well that argument worked during the days of slavery and segregation.

Go ahead. I'm waiting.

[Colobo]

90. Frankly, he hasn't said much. Neither has Hillary.

So, tell me, if both are not what they should be when it comes to GLBT rights, why should I prefer her over him?

[theHandpuppet]

107. If you haven't read enough posts here to figure it out

You don't need an instant replay from me.

Hillary Clinton was certainly not my first choice, or even my second. But I'll take her any day over someone who publicly slapped us in the face and has refused to apologize.

You may not like my reasoning or even understand it. But it's quite obvious you don't give a rat's ass, either, so stop with the head games. We've all been there, done that.

[Colobo]

130. I wish we could sit down and chat...

Honestly, I do. I'm on your side, even if you think otherwise right now.

[theHandpuppet]

154. Sorry Katz, but words don't mean very much to me right now

Promises are hollow and hope is for other people. Once y'all have pulled that lever and your candidate of choice is elected, you'll forget all about us. And nothing will really change for us. That's just the way it is.

[cboy4]

156. See that's it in a nutshell.

And just watch...any of these issues Obama allegedly supports for us will quickly be swept under the carpet as we approach the 2010 midterms, cuz that might cost us congress....and then we'll be too close to the 2012 presidential election....can't talk about the gays cuz that might cost us the White House.

It never ends.

[ruggerson]

158. "the fierce urgency of, uh, maybe later"

[NMMNG]

160. LOL

Maybe when it's convenient for me. When it's not going to cost me any votes, campaign cash, disapproval from my bigot friends, or anything else.

God forbid (so to speak) anybody take a stand for what is right. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

185. Too fucking bad, because it's the truth -- he's already done it more than once

[ruggerson]

49. Of course it doesn't include us

but I don't think a Pres McCain or Obama would do us great harm either. They just won't push for our equality one iota. Unless of course it threatens them politically.

Clinton gets it. But it remains to be seen whether she'll have the chance to push for us.

[donheld]

53. This Gay DUer feels quite fine thanks

It's all going the way I wanted it too so why shouldn't I be fine.

[cboy4]

144. I think the captain of the Titanic said the same thing

heading out to sea.

[cboy4]

69. You know, I'll end up voting for Obama if he's the

nominee.

It's clearly better having him in the White House than McCain.

I just am so pessimistic about whether Obama will keep any of his commitments.

I feel like I'm going to vote for him and then I'll/we'll get fucked.

And how depressing is that.

[theHandpuppet]

91. And as usual, we are left without a choice or any power

I just don't see what the solution could possibly be. That's when it gets depressing because you feel it's hopeLESS.

[newmajority]

142. It's up to the people to keep the pressure on those who claim to represent us.

Obama has said that he, as one man - even as President - cannot bring change on his own. "Yes We Can" is a great campaign slogan, but it's also the honest to God truth. WE, being the operative word. WE can bring change, if WE demand it.

The DLC (which IS the Clintons) is institutionally committed to pandering to the right. We KNOW they are not going to move one step to the left of where they are now on LGBT issues (or anything else, for that matter) because if they HAVE moved anywhere since 1993, it's been to the right.

I don't pretend that Barack Obama is a Kucinich style Liberal (as I am myself), but he's not a puppet of an institutional right wing body like the DLC. That in and of itself is a huge step in the proper direction. Electing more true Democrats to Congress is another. And the biggest step of all is WE the people refuse to back down. On LGBT issues. On the warmongering. On everything that the last 28 years have done to destroy this country.

[cboy4]

152. I understand what you're saying about pandering to the

right, in regard to the DLC.

So that becomes a trust issue.

As I said, I'll vote for him if he's the nominee.

But, as sad as it is, I don't really trust anyone who isn't gay.

All I can do is hope that I'm not made a fool voting for the man.

And I'm bracing myself for that reality.

[readmoreoften]

87. I'm leaving the party after 08 for CERTAIN. I'll vote for worthwhile Dems on the congressional level

I will never again be a part of an election that uses anti-gay tactics "for the greater good" (and that means most likely that I'll never vote Dem again unless it's for DK.) Goodbye to the triangulators. Goodbye to the rope around my neck. Goodbye to keeping powder dry and watching while we get mowed down.

Oh let Obama win. It's my last dance. No more "but you'll be responsible for keeping the Republicans in power if you don't stick with us." After this election I say we get together and vote strike en masse until we're recognized as equal citizens: no more getting fired, laughed out of interviews, evicted, threatened, beaten, and impoverished with the government's blessing.

We either move to the left or I move on.

Fork. Me. Done.

[theHandpuppet]

97. Maybe we need a leader like YOU

I think you have the right ideas.

[readmoreoften]

116. I'm sure by February 2009, we can start planning for the 2010 boycott.

Practice run for the 2012. We should tell the candidates in advance: get with full equality or lose LGBT money and votes. And yes, that means we're bringing our trannies along with us. (Like Maddie Joan said about ENDA: This car don't run if you lose the tranny.)

Now as always: silence=death.

Ain't nobody ever done nothing for us but us, so I say let's stop bitchin' and get organized.

[theHandpuppet]

122. Can I vote for you now?

I think I have one to spare that no one else will be needing.

[readmoreoften]

165. Heck, I'd love a write in. Why not?

Be sure to send me a photocopy! :hi:

[cboy4]

105. I'm sure fond of you readmoreoften.

And I completely hear you. :pals:

[readmoreoften]

121. I'm fond of you too, bro!

:hug:

We'll get through this and we'll beat the cowards and bigots out of the party with a big glittery stick...

[NMMNG]

129. There is no such thing

as using anti-gay tactics (or anti-anyone tactics) for "the greater good". It's divisive, it's hateful, it's harmful and it's bullshit.

But you know that so I'm just preaching to the choir.

[MsUnderstood]

123. I don't know what state you are in. . .

But in California we are very much the issue. . .why just the other day in front of Walmart was a redneck with a big sign NO GAY MARRIAGE and he was getting signatures to get something on the november ballot to put those homosexuals in their place.

Let me tell you about how this political thing will work. Our rights will not be on the top ten list of the democrats but the fight for our rights will be right up there on the Republican list of talking points,along with abortion, family values, morality, flag burning, prayer in school, and keeping up this war against terror (which strangely enough a woman loving a woman somehow causes if you listen to the pope).

Speaking of war, we are in it...and we gotta suck it up, take one for the team and vote democratic cause sure as that guy at walmart harbors some serious mother issues, our rights (or an attempt to strip us of em) will be on the ballot in November in several states cause nothing draws out the republican voters like ants to a picnic like fringe issues (and before I get flamed, Gays are a minority the issue is fringe issue--important to us but most folk say "doesn't bother me and I don't care").

So yep, this "wave of change" won't include us (again). Yep these gay voters are the red headed step child. But honestly, what are we gonna do?

My choice is easy--give up and don't vote cause the democrats want us to keep a low profile or head to the ballot box, fight off the conservative wingnuts trying to make your life illegal to fit with their interpretation of your immorality, and when the democrats get their numbers and get the white house back show up with your hand out and ask for your payback.

Elections aren't just the president and the congress--it is also about the judges, federal employees, policies reviewed. Your vote doesn't tell the democrats keep using us, it tells the democrats "here you go, get in there and fix it" so that the people they appoint can correct the wrongs.

[McCamy Taylor]

124. When I saw Obama then McCain on MSNBC I knew it was 1976 all over again.

All Obama has to do is keep on doing what he is doing, and he will beat McCain. I feel sort of sorry for McCain, but even pity is not going to help the GOP win this election. McCain is his own worst advertisement. And you know that he will not want to resort to any kind of dirty tricks---and if he does, it will only rebound on him horribly.

So, I feel :woohoo: :applause: :headbang: :dem:

[Chovexani]

127. Like shit.

This sounds horrible but I think we'll just need to let the homophobes die off before we will ever get to where we should be. :(

[Occam Bandage]

128. Bi. I feel great.

[boppers]

134. I like a constitutional scholar who knows his history.

Especially one who knows how this has to play out in the long run.

Because he, himself, is the product of a hundred year fight to honor a basic civil right.

I'm speaking, of course, of Loving v. Virginia.

A national level measure to reverse anti-miscegenation laws would have failed, because, while it it would have played in some parts of the north, it would have totally failed in the south.

Not unlike our current plight. Actually, the parallels are pretty amazing at times.

So, what's the solution?

"State's Rights". Seems abhorrent, and disturbing, aside from a little magical thing known as the 14th amendment. You see, once a few of our bluer states acknowledge our basic rights, and the redder states try to deny us those same basic rights, their whole prejudicial DOMA, anti-partnership, anti-family house of cards can be pulled down with one single supreme court decision.

Don't think it'll happen? Check out Lawrence v. Texas, something I'm immensely happy I got to see happen in my lifetime. :)

[ruggerson]

140. I don't think Kennedy is there yet

so, we would need one of the gang of five to retire or die in the next four years.

Not likely.

[boppers]

151. Is it a bad thing to hope for Scalia...

... to "find greener pastures" soon? ;)

I normally hold our supremes with an insanely high regard, but Scalia... wow. Just wow. I could even handle Kozinski replacing him, even, because Scalia seems just plain bitter and angry.

[1awake]

135. well,

I can't say I know very many Gay people. No, I don't have any friends who are gay, or at least that I know of. No family members either.. well, I do have a cousin who is, but I rarely see him (lives far away). I must say, I have no real idea what it must be like for the people in the GLBT community. Years upon years of nothing that even resembles civil rights, and that's not even the worst of it. You have been stepped on, knocked down, beaten, verbally abused, ridiculed, and so many more murdered. More recently, you have been blamed, told you were evil, sinful, and now, used. The republicans want to shove you under a rug, and the democrats want to use you, then shove you under a rug. I wish I could tell you when it will end, but I have no idea. It's disgusting to me that an entire segment of our population is consistently denied BASIC civil rights because of other peoples hate or misunderstandings. I guess I wouldn't believe politicians either when so many have lied to you over the years.

All I can say is, there are many of us out here who agree with you, and who would do anything to help. I know nothing I said helps at all, and I can't claim to know how you all feel, but I do know how it feels to be alone and forgotten, so I just wanted you to know you haven't been by all of us.

[Zhade]

139. The same as you feel.

:(

[TheDonkey]

145. Feeling good. Go Obama!

It is also nice that gay rights are not the "issue" this campaign but they maybe come GE.

[cboy4]

153. What in the world does that mean?

It's nice that gay rights are not the issue....what??

[theHandpuppet]

157. Yeah, I'm scratching my head about that myself.

:crazy:

[TheDonkey]

285. I wasn't clear

I meant it was not the hot button issue like it was in 2004. Where it was brought up ad nauseum and was mostly used as a platform for the MSM to gay bash. Now it is just an accepted part of the democratic platform and not "OMG GAYS!!!!!1!!" Nothing particularly scandalous about it.

[Chovexani]

341. LOL

Now it is just an accepted part of the democratic platform and not "OMG GAYS!!!!!1!!" Nothing particularly scandalous about it.

LGBT people are accepted by the Democratic party much like you accept your crazy, alcoholic aunt. You lock her in the attic and hope no one sees her, and every so often you check in on her to make sure she hasn't chewed through the rope.

Of course, this is better than the Republicans, who would just shoot her dead on sight, bury her body in the backyard and pretend she never existed. But it's not exactly ideal treatment of one's family.

[Bluebear]

176. WTF does that mean?

[The Traveler]

161. I am not impressed

with the treatment of the Democratic contenders with this issue. Period.

I'm a straight white guy. But I am not a fool. If GLBT people can be denied basic human rights on the basis of sexual preference, then my rights can be withheld on some other arbitrary basis. Enlightened self interest alone demands GLBT folk receive acknowledgment of their basic human rights. So long as their rights are denied, mine are in jeopardy.

And, let us face it, it is a moral imperative.

[NMMNG]

162. Thank you

I'm a straight white guy. But I am not a fool. If GLBT people can be denied basic human rights on the basis of sexual preference, then my rights can be withheld on some other arbitrary basis. Enlightened self interest alone demands GLBT folk receive acknowledgment of their basic human rights. So long as their rights are denied, mine are in jeopardy.

And, let us face it, it is a moral imperative.

Many people don't make that connection. I applaud you for doing so.

[nonconformist]

163. I'm straight, but a big supporter of GLBT rights

It's one of the reasons I just cannot support Obama. I really and truly feel he would move us in the wrong direction on those issues.

:(

[Der Blaue Engel]

164. Feeling pretty shitty and despairing as a matter of fact

Funny how that "hope" thing just doesn't seem to be trickling down far enough to reach us here under this bus. :(

[NMMNG]

166. Something is trickling down

But I don't think it's "hope". x(

[Not a robought]

167. I just recently discovered the GDP forum

and for the past few days I've been lost in all the threads trying to make sense of the rabble and animosity for supporters of the other's candidate. I didn't understand the cynicism for Barack who is capturing the masses with an inspiring message of hope and change, in favor of a candidate who appears kind of the same but slightly better to some.

Till now. Once I saw this thread my eyes opened with some perspective. I was really perplexed to see posts on DU of people saying they'll vote for McCain or just sit out without any context, because I hadn't seen that extreme since the Bush/Gore aftermath with the Nader Greens which went on for years here.

After discovering how members of GLBT feel here, I now totally understand anyone's decision to pull money and efforts from a candidate who won't support you on the national level. The evangelicals made themselves a big presence in the past 8, no reason GLBT can't rally and do the $ame.

If Barack ends up the nominee, he's got work to do to claim the progressive mantel and come up with contents of the change mandate. Put yourselves first and get on that list for YOUR rights. Much of the western world has acknowledged and moved forward on these human rights issues, meanwhile the repubs had their hurrah for a reprise of the roarin' 50's, it can't last. :-)

Thanks for the eye opener, sorry to see things look shitty for members of the GLBT community. It's a strike against Barack unless he can start making some acknowledgments. Not too late, strength to you.

edit: spelling

[Midlodemocrat]

169. I will continue to fight for you.

I will continue to champion the rights of the GLBT community until they put me in the ground. I won't throw you under the bus, I promise.

[radfringe]

170. comments from an "old timer"

as with any civil rights movement it's going to take a long time, progress is made in millimeters

there is a catch-22 going on between culture and laws.

laws must be changed/amended/created in order to force a cultural change, yet there must be a cultural change going on to put enough pressure on legislatures to change/amend/create these laws.

as with any movement - there must be unity and a strong leader to rally around. there is neither in the GLBT community. I've been to many many many many organizational groups, events etc over the years and have yet to see any sort of willingness to unite under a common flag.

the closest I've ever seen that the GLBT community has banded together (and here's where I show my age) is the Anita Bryant episode (see excerpt and link below).

Bryant was also a spokesperson for Florida Orange Juice - "a day without orange juice is a day without sunshine".

Across the country - sales of orange juice went down the drain as a boycott was called. That summer was my first visit to Provincetown, and in every bar and restaurant there was a sign saying they would not serve orange juice. And for awhile the GLBT came together. The battle in Dade country was lost, but it put the issue of GLBT rights into the public forum.

Since then, there has been to real unity, except for a few hours at Gay pride marches.

Bryant rallied us, but only as a target, not as our leader. When you look back at recent history - who were the leaders for other civil right movements - Ghandi in India, Mandela in South Africa, and Martin Luther King here in our country. Who do we have in the GLBT community?

Until there is unity and a leader within our community - there will be no change.


=================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Bryant
Anita Jane Bryant (born March 25, 1940, in Barnsdall, Oklahoma) is an American singer.

She is widely known for her strong views against homosexuality, and for her prominent campaigning in the mid-1970s to prevent gay equality - specifically her successful move to repeal a local ordinance in Miami, Florida, that prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Bryant is a member of a conservative church congregation affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

..............

http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/boycotts.html

Florida Orange Juice Boycott

The first glbt boycott to receive considerable media attention took place in 1977 when Anita Bryant, a pop singer and former Miss Oklahoma then employed as a spokesperson for the Florida Citrus Commission, founded an organization called Save Our Children, which was dedicated not to the welfare of children but to the repeal of a Dade County, Florida ordinance that protected gay men and lesbians from discrimination in employment and housing.

The prospect of a boycott of Florida orange juice, the product Bryant endorsed in advertisements, drew a mixed reaction from people concerned with gay and lesbian rights. Some, lesbians in particular, were reluctant to undertake a campaign that could cost a woman her job when Bryant's actions had been in her role as a private citizen rather than in the course of her work for the Florida Citrus Commission. Others expressed fears that Bryant would be cast as a "holy Christian martyr," concern for farm workers, and doubts about the effectiveness of boycotts as a tactic. Some of these reservations were allayed when the Florida Citrus Commission specifically endorsed Bryant's campaign and announced their support for her.

Momentum for the boycott grew. San Francisco activist Harvey Milk, then a columnist for the Bay Area Reporter, called for support, comparing the action to the Boston Tea Party. The Alameda (California) County Democratic Central Committee encouraged "all Democrats" to take part in the boycott, citing "the Bryant forces' disregard for the separation of church and state." David Goodstein, the publisher of The Advocate, lent both editorial and considerable financial support to the campaign.

Organizations responded. The San Francisco Tavern Guild stopped using Florida orange juice, as did gay bars and restaurants throughout the country. The American Federation of Television and Radio Artists unanimously voted "to deny their services and talents to Bryant."

When put to a referendum, Dade County voters repealed the gay rights ordinance by a large majority, dealing a blow to the gay rights movement. Nevertheless, glbt rights activists found cause for hope. Milk stated that because of Bryant "the entire nation finally opened up and talked about Gay people." Goodstein suggested she deserved a "Gay Unity Award" for bringing people together to fight for their civil rights.

Bryant's status as a controversial figure cost her professionally. Sponsorship offers dwindled, and she saw some eighty entertainment bookings canceled in a year. Both her professional and personal life were in a shambles by 1980, when she divorced--for which she was condemned by many of the same right-wing Christians who had applauded her campaign to abridge glbt rights--and was fired by the Florida Citrus Commission.

Bryant returned to Oklahoma, remarried, and tried to resurrect her career. By 1997 she and her second husband had numerous liens against them for unpaid taxes and other debts, and they filed for bankruptcy. Their next venture, a theater in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, was also unsuccessful. They filed for bankruptcy again in 2001.

In 1994 the Florida Citrus Commission hired another homophobic spokesperson, Rush Limbaugh. Joining glbt rights groups in denouncing the choice were feminists, African Americans, and the state's governor, Lawton Chiles.

Dade County finally passed a new glbt rights ordinance in 1998. A repeal effort by conservative Christians in 2002 failed.

[Boomer]

190. I'm not sure "progress" is the right word

>> as with any civil rights movement it's going to take a long time, progress is made in millimeters

My own view is that we're barely holding our own. Gains in some areas, even concerning marriage, are outweighed by a rising tide of evangelical vitriol and homophobic legislation in others. Perhaps my views are unduly darkened by my own personal slide backwards; as theHandpuppet mentioned above, we lost her medical benefits coverage a few years ago. Pennsylvania allowed them, but when the corporation that owned my company cut us loose, the company fell under Virginia law and that was the end of partner benefits.

[radfringe]

198. not going to happen overnight

took over a hundred years to even get to the point where a black man is considered a credible presidential candidate and has a good chance of winning

You were lucky to for the former company to provide partnership benefits. I'm in PA, the insurance I have through work would allow a company to include partnership coverage, but the company won't do it. I was told until it's LAW, they won't do it.

my partner has been without health insurance since end of September, when she was laid off.

and yes, we are barely holding our own - which is all the more reason why as a GLBT community there needs to be unity and a leader.

I've been at this for a long time. Attended lesbian groups trying to organize, only to find they only want to create a women's only space, and spent most of the time bashing men. have heard and seen gay men bashing lesbians, and everyone bashing bi-sexuals and transexuals.

I've been at meetings and events where the mutual bashing and flaming makes the Clinton-Obama fights here in the GD-P look like a spat over who left the milk out.

and when I come out of those meetings, all I can think is that the only difference between them and the Ku Klux Klan is the color of the sheets.

[NMMNG]

218. It was nice reading about Milk again

Myself and the SO were just in SF working as extras on the upcoming film about his life. It's been both moving and galvanizing for us both.

[rasputin1952]

173. I have been fighting for GLBT Rights for quite some time, just as

I fight for Civil Rights for minorities. It took me longer to get into the GLBT Rights movement, because for a long time, I have to say, I just didn't care enough. As time went by, I finally realized that it is Human Rights I am fighting for...for failing to see that earlier, I am ashamed of myself.

It is never really about a "group", it is about humanity as a whole. No group should ne held to a different standard, we are all human beings, and by being such, we must all be afforded the same equality and respect. It took women until 1920 to obtain the right to vote, it took until the 1960's for blacks to even really begin to reach for equal status in the view of the status quo. Over the years before that, many lost their lives and their property trying to establish basic human dignity.

I think the fight should be fought as a Human Rights issue...people understand that far easier than something they find "abstract" to their thought process. Almost everyone understands the necessity of human rights...for straight guys like me the process is far more difficult to understand until we truly look at the issue. Most of the people I know haven't the faintest idea they've ever even had a conversation w/someone from the gay community, (the whole closeted thing), and when/if they find out their friend is gay, they realize that there is no difference in the humanity of the individual. A small step, to be sure...but an extremely enlightening one.

The sexual repression of the people of the US has a lot to do with how people view things. it shouldn't be that way, but, unfortunately, in far too many instances, it is.

I just want you to know I'm fighting for you, and every other human on the planet...if i can help change perceptions in my small corner of the world, so much the better for all of us...:pals:

[aquarius dawning]

177. I know of only one way to go down: kicking, punching and fighting.

Keep supporting Hillary regardless of the outcome. Petition her for a thrid party maneuver. Write her name in if you have to.
edit grammar

[Rockholm]

178. Arizona wants to put a Gay Marriage ban on the Nov. Ballot.

We are going to become an "issue" once again this year. Maybe Donnie McGlukin can counsel Obama on equal rights for gays?

[NMMNG]

214. They're trying to do the same thing in CA as well

Marriage passed in the legislature twice and the idiot Governator vetoed it. Now bigoted asshats have started a petition to get a marriage ban on the November ballot. When do I get to vote on their marriage ? :eyes:

[Rockholm]

231. Sadly, we don't.

[Prism]

179. Feeling great. Sorry you're not.

And I do mean that genuinely. I wish we as a community didn't go so emotionally invested in the small stuff to such an extent that we miss the large stuff. The other day, I was browsing through a wrap-up of gay cultural issues, and there was Isaiah Washington, and how massive a scandal it was. And, of course, it was a massive scandal. But why? ENDA isn't passed. Hate crimes law lingers in purgatory. But, by god, an actor said something!

We kind of have a history of getting worked up over the small things because they're emotionally satisfying and easy to tackle, while missing the larger picture entirely.

So here's the larger picture for me with Obama. I live in Chicago. I've watched the man's political career. Do you know how easy it is to be as gay positive as Obama has been in the African American religious community in this city? It is not easy. At all. In fact, it might as well be political suicide in many cases.

Some people may remember about two years ago, the Illinois Human Rights Commission nearly imploded because black politicians and religious leaders sided with the Nation of Islam when Louis Farrakhan denounced Jews and gays.

All that time, there was Obama, voting for gay supportive bill after gay supportive bill in the state legislature. The man has a history of supporting our community in circumstances where it might have been more electorally beneficial to denounce us. Yes, he put his political career on the line before anyone outside of South Side Chicago even knew who the guy was.

That is why I can easily believe that McClurkin was simple political stupidity. It went against *everything* he has ever done for the LGBT community. He wanted a popular gospel type, his campaign hired McClurkin, and suddenly he had to choose which side he wanted to offend - gays for allowing McClurkin to continue on, or religiously conservative African Americans he needs to win the election. He tried to compromise and split the difference, which basically made no one happy. But he *did* disagree with McClurkin in no uncertain terms. He did it loudly and publicly. He went into the lion's den of conservative churches and told people to their face they were wrong about their anti-gay views.

I'm sorry, but all of the above is far more than Hillary Clinton has ever done and will ever do.

If people are going to take the McClurkin incident and make that the only issue they vote on, so be it. But allowing one minor issue to overwhelm a political career that has been very gay positive is not only foolish, it's self-destructive.

Yes, people do need a thicker skin. Yes, my fellow gays do need to "Get over it."

Because our rights and the larger picture are more important than one McClurkin.

[theHandpuppet]

187. Yes, my fellow gays do need to "Get over it."

That, my fellow Americans, is not even worthy of a response, though I was sorely tempted.

[Prism]

196. I'm sorry, but . . .

I think many out-spoken gays on this board are addicted to outrage because they're hurt and frustrated, don't know what to do, and find unloading on smaller issues acts as an outlet for those feelings.

But I'm sorry. This isn't the 80s or early 90s anymore. Outrage alone doesn't work. What we need is wisdom. Political wisdom more specifically.

That people match Obama's record and experience against Senator Clinton's (including her *current* support for certain parts of DOMA) and then stand there and say "She's obviously the best for gays" is utterly perplexing.

Something else has to be at work there, because it certainly doesn't seem like logically calculated political evaluation based on what will best serve the community's needs. And when you prod to see what might be prompting that attitude, it's the same thing every time.

"McClurkin!" followed by a head explosion.

Fine, be outraged. If outrage is more important and satisfying for you than progress, so be it.

[QC]

197. Your smugness and condescension are not winning anyone over.

If you really want to help your candidate, you should probably just go away.

[Prism]

199. Because lambasting is so much better

I'm under no illusion that I will convince most of the anti-Obama gays on this board to support his candidacy. When people have posted dozens and dozens of times about how outraged they are about McClurkin over the course of five months, I doubt anything I say, no matter how dulcet the tones, will have any effect whatsoever.

I speak out merely to show that there are alternative voices out there who don't need to say the same thing over and over and over in hundreds of threads creating the impression that the entire gay community is just up in arms and angry at Obama.

In addition, when I perceive that the over the top emotional behavior of some threatens the progress to my equality, it's my duty and right to speak out.

[QC]

200. Yes, it's better to be a sanctimonious little prisspot! n/t

[Prism]

204. So far, sanctimony is winning over outrage. Guess we'll have to take it. n/t

[Bluebear]

222. 'over the top emotional behavior' - yeah, just a bunch of hysterical queens, eh?

[Prism]

235. Please

I'm not fond of the constant victim pose whenever any criticism is made. It's a shame I'm not straight. Then you could have gone right to the homophone accusations with no thought whatsoever.

But to answer your question, yes actually. It is a form of hysteria. This "All is lost, let us fling ourselves from cliffs!" is unhelpful to say the least.

One campaign foul up with a self-loathing gospel singer, and suddenly tomorrow is the darkest day that shall yet fall upon our people.

You don't think that kind of attitude isn't just a touch over the top?

Me, I'm optimistic. The younger generations are more gay-accepting than ever. Polls for gay equality are going up, up, up. We have major, viable presidential candidates touting a repeal of DADT, DOMA, and at supporting at least civil unions. The candidate I support has gone into bigoted communities and said in no uncertain terms that they're wrong - and he's winning.

And yet, a pretty loud, repetitive contingent wants everyone to believe that gays in America have never faced a more evil day now that Senator Clinton is losing. Please. That's ridiculous.

That kind of pessimism and bitterness and anger never won anyone anything. And it's especially damaging to gay youth, youth who are just now able to start growing up in a world where they can be who they are at an earlier and earlier age. I don't know about you, but I'm working precisely so those who come after can have a sense of optimisim about their lives no matter what their sexual orientation.

One Donnie McClurkin, and suddenly the angry pessimists want everyone to believe there is no hope.

Some people know hope. Others seek to destroy it so everyone feels as low as they do.

What kind of person are you?

[LostinVA]

238. "You're either with us or against us"

"Some people know hope. Others seek to destroy it so everyone feels as low as they do.

What kind of person are you?"


Oh brother.

[Bluebear]

240. Jinx.

[Prism]

252. Don't put words in my mouth

I didn't say everyone needs to come on board the Obama train. I said some people are hopeful about the future of gay Americans, and some are bitter pessimists with a skewed perception of reality who constantly feel the need to spread that around.

If Obama is the party's nominee, we'll have a candidate who wants to repeal DOMA and DADT while supporting civil unions. That's a pretty good deal, in my view - even if he isn't your preferred candidate.

But if this thread and the many like it posted around these parts are anything to go by, you'd think an Obama presidency is going to round us up and start placing us in internment camps tomorrow.

What kind of message do you want to give to the gays and lesbians who are growing up right now? That our future is bright, or that all is lost so you might as well give up?

That latter attitude is tiresome, damaging, and worthless in the fight for equality. Yet, so many around here seem to embrace it while simultaneously claiming Obama is the awful one for our community. Right. You know, sometimes our worst enemy is ourselves.

[LostinVA]

258. I didn't -- I gave my inference

And, I also don't believe you're gay.

[NMMNG]

264. Are you are as ready to puke as I am?

Some people know hope. Others seek to destroy it so everyone feels as low as they do.


Is everybody in that group eating Hallmark cards for breakfast? :puke:

[LostinVA]

266. Seriously -- it sounds like a bad video game or manga

I'm not real thrilled about campaiagn uber slogans than remind me of something Eric Blair might write. One of my majors was history, and it gives me the willies.

[terrya]

319. Makes me sort of think of that Lesley Gore song..."Sunshine Lollipops and Rainbows"

This...adulation...of Obama around here is sort of icky sometimes.

[Bluebear]

239. I voted for John Edwards. There was hope. So cut your dime-store psychotherapy.

'Some people know hope. Others seek to destroy it so everyone feels as low as they do.'

Talk about "over the top".

[Prism]

255. Unlike Edwards

Obama has a proven track record of working on behalf of the LGBT community in Illinois. Ironically, his actual deeds far outweighed Edwards' nice (johnny-come-lately) rhetoric.

The only way the bitterness against Obama works is if you ignore everything he's ever done and only count the McClurkin incident when balancing how valuable he could be for our community.

Which many around here seem to be doing.

Who needs facts. You've got outrage. It's kind of the same thing, right?

[NMMNG]

267. This has nothing to do with your hope or our lack of it.

We have plenty of hope though many have tried to whip it out of us over the years. Right now some of us are fighting mad and, as the saying goes, "we're just not going to take it any more". Sorry if that doesn't fit with your HOPE and CHANGE paradigm, but pragmatism isn't exactly a daily affirmation sort of thing. It's more a WORK and EFFORT thing.

[DURHAM D]

272. Yep - and angry dykes. eom

[Neecy]

232. Thanks, Prism

I feel the same way, although I won't go so far as to say anyone should get over it. Clearly on this thread that isn't going to happen and I wouldn't suggest that it should.

The McClurkin thing angered me. I still don't like it. But, like you, I went back to his past history and found that he's generally been openly supportive of our rights, even in front of audiences hostile to them. Fair enough.

Neither candidate is perfect, and there are going to be brickbats thrown from supporters of both. We've just gone through a bruising 8 years, complete with being blamed for the '04 loss (and I give John Kerry huge credit for not taking Bill Clinton's advice to run against gay marriage - now *there* was a friend and someone I'll respect forever because he respected us). To be splitting hairs and fighting over two imperfect candidates is sort of pointless. All things being equal between the two, I still prefer Obama because of Hillary's vote on the IWR.

[LostinVA]

180. Once again, no voice for us

Senator Clinton isn't perfect on GLBT issues, but she is truly a friend of ours, and has been since her early AIDS work in ARkansas. I think she would help us as President. Now, if Obama gets the nomination (which seems quite probable), we have a panderer who will push us down at the first chance. God, at this point, I feel almost better about MCCAIN, because at least I know what he'll do or won't do re: GLBT issues.

And, once again, many posters on here won't give a good fuck... including some quite Obama supporters who PUBLICLY on DU blamed the loss of the 2004 election on GLBT Americans.

[theHandpuppet]

183. God God -- is this true?

"And, once again, many posters on here won't give a good fuck... including some quite < > Obama supporters who PUBLICLY on DU blamed the loss of the 2004 election on GLBT Americans."

Well I guess they're safe with supporting Obama then, huh.

[LostinVA]

188. Oh yes -- many, many, many

Check your PM

[theHandpuppet]

189. Thanks. I'll check it out.

Although I'm not sure my blood pressure can take much more.

[Boomer]

186. My thanks to TheWraith

I owe a big thanks to TheWraith.

When I entered this thread I was at least reluctantly willing to support Obama if he becomes the Democratic candidate. My misgivings were almost entirely focused on Obama's lack of experience and leverage within the Beltway. But after reading the sharp exchanges between TheWraith and other posters on Obama's record concerning GLBT issues, I've had a jolting wake-up call.

TheWraith may not have understood the importance or impact of the incidents laid out by gay DUers, but *I* certainly do. And I'm reminded, once again, of how easily I've let my own rights and interests be subsumed for "the good of the party" and everything they stand for. Except, of course, they don't stand for me.

At this point, from what I've seen of all the possible candidates for the upcoming election, McCain has more guts on this issue than Clinton or Obama. He may not support my full rights, but he will stand up to hate-mongering within his own party, paying the price of losses within his own support base.

Hmmm. I have a lot to think about between now and November.

[racaulk]

206. Oh, is THAT who "Ignored" is?

;)

[theHandpuppet]

208. LOL -- some days I wish I had an ignore list

It would probably be better for my health, that's for sure.

[Umbram]

221. No.

Seriously, ignore lists are used in one of two ways.

1.) Rarely, to stop/prevent actual harassment.

2.) Commonly, as a method to make sure one doesn't have to *gasp* deal with individuals who may disagree with you. Not only do users of ignore have to block out any dissonence they may encounter, they have to publicly announce to everyone on every thread that someone they are ignoring has posted. This childish behavior is the equivalent of covering your ears while screaming at someone.

Trust me - you are a better person for NOT using the ignore option.

Every time I see "Welcome to my ignore list" or "Hey, look, someone on my ignore list is starting trouble again." I roll my eyes.

[Bluebear]

224. Ah, so THAT who "ignored" turns out to be,

Quelle surprise!

[Horse with no Name]

192. You are 100% correct

and I am very sorry for that.:(

[Bluenorthwest]

205. Feeling depressed

And pissed at the DNC.
But feeling encouraged by the other voices I have found in this community. I found DU because of McClurkin and related issues, looking for Democrats to discuss it with, GLBT Democrats especially. I am living in a new State, first primary ever out of CA and away from my network of people. It is nice to know I am not alone in my feelings about this.
I'm really new here, I have not been able to read the whole thread- page can not be found- but many of the wonderful posters in this thread have been like an electronic tribe for me. Some of you are so very well spoken and I just love you for speaking, be you G L B T and especially the straight folk who really get it. I've been so thankful to DU and the posters here, just wanted to say that.
Handpuppet thank you for this thread. Peace to all of us. And all of them too!

[theHandpuppet]

207. You are not alone

Although I think some of us, myself included, are feeling like there must be another forum out there somewhere that focuses on OUR battles and where we're not treated as some politically expendable "special interest" group. And for that I'm open to recommendations. :-)

And no Log Cabin Republicans, please. :puke:

[Politicub]

209. I'm feeling invisible to the dems, and as a money magnet for the GOP

Gay rights haven't loomed large in this dem cycle at all, unless its been on the converse (how little can we promise to get the GLBT to sit down and shut up, or how can we use them to pander to conservative dems without them noticing - but we did notice).

For the GOP, they like us because it gives them something to feel good about discriminating against in the form of the marriage amendment. Removing someone's rights via the constitution gets them all fired up and frothy.

[Lilith Velkor]

211. Craptastic, thanks for asking

This "Fuck you, vote for me" shit got old eight years ago, and it's downright intolerable now.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

213. too disappointed to care.

[snooper2]

215. Shit, when do you think we will have an athiest president...

We will have a gay president way before anybody who will stand up and say, "I don't believe in God"

[theHandpuppet]

223. Sorry, not equivalent

We're talking about having our rights here, not running for President.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

237. as a gay atheist i have to say, i have never been discriminated against because of my atheism

[Mark Twain Girl]

217. Thank you for this thread. Can I add as a close family member?

I'm very close to my brother, and I had a difficult moment just last night, wondering: what does it mean to "reach out" to forces that think my beautiful brother is morally defective or worse? I read a thread yesterday saying that Obama would be an "American" president who would unite us all, because we at heart, we want the same things. Except we don't want the same things. I want basic civil rights for my brother and all GLBT Americans, and I think that's a bread and butter social justice issue that involves insurance, health care, child care, property rights and marriage rights. Large swaths of the American populace doesn't want these things, and I don't feel common cause with them.

This goes to the heart of the question: how does unity work, exactly?

I feel depressed, I guess you'd say.

[NMMNG]

226. That's what so many people just don't get

They call us "one issue voters" when we cite GLBT needs as a reason for being concerned about a particular candidate. But GLBT needs go far beyond one issue. They encompass our entire lives.


I want basic civil rights for my brother and all GLBT Americans, and I think that's a bread and butter social justice issue that involves insurance, health care, child care, property rights and marriage rights.

Exactly. It's still legal in many states to fire (or refuse to hire) a person for being LGBT. In all but 1 state we cannot marry and we cannot get the more than 1000 federal benefits that go with marriage. Domestic Partnerships/Civil Unions, no matter how well intentioned, do not provide the same rights and protections as legal marriage. We do not have federal hate-crimes protection.

GLBT rights are civil rights. They are human rights. They are what we need and deserve and they affect every facet of our life. They are not "one issue" and we are not "one issue voters".

My best to you and your brother. :hi:

[theHandpuppet]

233. I think we're all asking the same questions

And the reason we're depressed, angry or beyond caring is because there seems to be no answer and no support. Sapphocrat reminded me about Freud's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results every time. Perhaps it's time to break the cycle. She had some sage advice about how to redirect those energies and I think that will be the way for me from now on. There IS NO place for us on the stage of the national political scene so our monies and energies are best invested elsewhere.

[LostinVA]

241. Very nice post

Your brother is lucky.

[mmonk]

220. Concentrate on Congress.

Find allies there and specifically work on legislation to protect your rights and person. When I was trying to get rights agreed to IN WRITING for people with learning disabilities, this was the approach I had to take.

[LostinVA]

225. My latest favorite on here

A subject header calling Edwards a "twinkie." I'm hoping the reason so many in the thread aren't commenting is because they don't know what "twinkie" or "twink" means. So, I guess Edwards is a f*g now, eh?

Guess who the OP is voting for?

[Bluebear]

229. Mine is I am a Hillbot because she will be better for my SEX LIFE, me being gay and all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4534290&mesg_id=4547411

[LostinVA]

230. OMFG

[theHandpuppet]

236. I couldn't make it through that whole thread

It was just too much for me right now, emotionally.

[theHandpuppet]

234. Yeah, but nobody cares

And even if they don't know, they don't even care that they don't know.

I saw that thread and at some point the insults are so blatant I find my brain going numb.

[theHandpuppet]

246. Later on in that same thread he wrote...

"he'd still be a twinkie... he needed to be a man"

So it's pretty obvious the author knew exactly what he was saying.

[Bluebear]

248. I saw that too, there is no doubt what he intended.

[theHandpuppet]

329. And the fallout from allowing that kind of gay-bashing on DU is now evident

The bigots have been given a green light to slur gays in any thread, then deny they knew said words were gay bashing in any way. Hence, we now get threads calling others "kinda fruity" and so forth then all the OP has to do is say he had no idea that calling someone "fruity" was offensive. it's open season on GLBTs here but I guess we're just supposed to "get over it".

Edited to add: But don't forget to send in your check and vote! :sarcasm:

[redwitch]

228. I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

Especially since the Obama/McClurkin stuff.

I think what is called for maybe is a well organized boycott ala the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Any group 20 - 30 million strong has to have a major impact if they organize. What if the GLBT community hit America in the pocketbook somehow? Or at least in the conscience?

[Stephanie]

251. Am I wrong? I thought Obama's position on marriage equality is better than hers >>>

http://citizenchris.typepad.com/citizenchris/2007/11/obama-and-gay-m.html

---snip---

"You know what I would do is immediately set up a civil union that is equal in federal rights so that all the states, all the rights that are conferred by the states are the same for gays and lesbians, same sex couples as for any other couple," he said. "In terms of marriage, what I would do is I would say each religious denomination can make their own decision." - Barack Obama

The commitment to push civil unions at the federal level "immediately" is fairly unprecedented, as Jennifer Vanasco pointed out. That puts him far out in front of Hillary or John Edwards, who have stayed very very vague on what exactly "civil unions" means to them. Obama is talking about the federal government treating state-issued civil unions the same as it does state-issued married licenses. That would represent huge progress.

But it still leaves out gay married couples (in Massachusetts, Rhode Island and elsewhere), as well as long-term gay couples in states that don't have marriage or civil unions (or domestic partnerships like in California, Washington, Hawaii, etc.). Obama has said he favors repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (not half-repeal like Hillary) so that would take care of married couples, and his questionnaire to the Human Rights Campaign favored federal recognition for long-term couples as well.

Finally, there is the sticky issue of religion and marriage. Obama has repeated the theme of leaving marriage to religion, which generally angers gays because we seek civil marriage, not to force religious denominations to wed us. Obama clearly knows that, so why does he keep saying it?

I think the answer is in the MTV/My Space event, where he talked about how marriage has become "entangled" with religion. He's actually got that backward, since marriage was a religious institution that became "entangled" with civil rights and responsibilities. Either way, he's clearly right about why marriage is such a time-bomb of a word for most people.

I suggested years ago, when Vermont first created civil unions for gay couples, that the government simply extend "civil unions" to everyone and leave the word "marriage" entirely to the private sphere. That will never happen anytime soon, but it's the direction Obama seems to be headed. And since he is reiterating that civil unions won't impact religious marriage, which is true, his overall point is well taken.

He would do well, however, to reiterate that gays aren't even seeking to infringe on religious denominations; otherwise this religion issue is a straw man is of his own making and will continue to rankle.

[mmonk]

253. Good luck.

I only have one small bone to pick with what the piece says. Marriage actually started out as pagan. Religion has claimed it as their own possession.

[terrya]

256. It's identical to hers.

They both want to deny marriage equality to gay and lesbian people.

[Bluebear]

259. She never pandered to conservative Christians by hiring "ex-gay" acts to host her events.

[Iceburg]

260. I don't want to be de-gayed before being offered the right to marry /nt

[NorthernSpy]

257. right now, I could point to several empty mills in my area...

Many of the people who worked at those places now rely on food banks and charity heating assistance and odd jobs to make ends meet.


Just part of the neoliberal economic miracle that wrecked my state. It continues under Bush, but it really got going under Clinton. It was the 90s and globalization and new trade deals every other day -- you remember?


And the people who are suffering as a consequence are mostly loyal Democratic voters. They put Bill in office years ago, twice.


You really think that you're the only ones whose interests ever get compromised in the political process?


Let me tell you something. Every single constituency that you're inclined to look at in envy can tell a similar story. Every single one of them.


It's not just you.

[Bluebear]

262. That's just what was needed, a straight person wagging their fingers at us.

[Chovexani]

271. Why the fuck do they come into these threads like that?

Do they get off on kicking us when we're down or something?

[noamnety]

274. I think they're just trying to make the point

that gay people have their unique problems (gay marriage, housing, health insurance) and straight people have their unique problems as well (being affected by the economy).

I thought it was an enlightening post, because up til now, I thought gay people had the discrimination problems in addition to the problems of class warfare. I didn't even realize the GLBT folks were all were magically exempt from having to work and from inflation.

We should have a thread on that, you know, explaining how layoffs and plant closings only affect straight people. It sounds like maybe even some of the gay folks didn't know that, what with them envying heteropeeps who have their own set of problems. ;)

[Bluebear]

275. You're right, of course. I buy gasoline for a dollar a gallon.

I have the special GayPass that allows me to buy gas cheap, heating oil cheap, my food prices never go up. I was shocked. SHOCKED, that these problems exist in the heterosexual world, as I am a one-issue voter just interested in all things gay. :silly:

[NMMNG]

279. What?!?!

I didn't get any GayPass . Was that in this years Homosexual Agenda? They must have forgotten to include mine. I'm calling HQ RIGHT FUCKING NOW! :grr:

[Chovexani]

280. You have to keep up on your paperwork

When you recruit more lesbians you have to be sure to report it to HQ or they won't be up on this stuff.

I got the PLATINUM GayPass! :D

[LostinVA]

324. I heard Ellen got hers taken away because of Anne Heche

But, THE GAYS relented when she started dating Portia.

[NMMNG]

277. I think they do

It's like they get some sort of rush out of it or something. It happens so often around here I can't think of any other explanation for it.

[NMMNG]

276. Oh Jesus

Is this another "our problems are worse than yours" thing?

Guess what. We have the same damn problems you described plus the GLBT Human Rights problems on top of them.

We can't get married and have the tax benefits and thousands of other rights/benefits that come with it.

We can still get fired (or even be refused employment) in many states just because we're LGBT.

And on top of that all we have the exact same problems everybody else has. We're not exempt from them because we're LGBT. We don't have some "get out of straight people's problems free" card. We still have to pay taxes, go to work, deal with the crappy economy, buy groceries, try to afford gas and heating fuel and every other thing you do. We just have that many more obstacles in our way thanks to the bigotries that a bunch of jerks have.

So don't come in here and wag your finger at us like we're whining about nothing and you have it so damn bad.

[terrya]

290. You could have started your own thread about this.

Instead of coming into this thread for GLBT people and their issues.

[Political Heretic]

281. Probably the biggest tragedy of 2008. Neither candidate is doing anything or enough.

I will not throw the baby out with the bathwater, meaning my support of a candidate can not be tied to one issue only. But I will not sit here and pretend like either my candidate or other candidates have pledged to do enough for this basic equality issue or promised to commit to a truly progressive agenda of LGBT human rights.

[IndianaGreen]

282. I am hopeful and I am supporting Obama

We already know how quick the Clintons are to throw LGBTs under the bus, or Latina campaign managers instead of the two overpaid white males (Penn and McCauliff) that remain with Hillarycamp.

[Liberalboy]

284. I'm still involved, but I moved to Canada in 2006...

they give a rat's us up here about ALL people, including gays. Start your immigration papers now :-)

[NMMNG]

288. It's truly tempting

Right now it's not feasible for family reasons. I'm also very averse to cold but I may find a way to get over that if conditions warrant it.

[Liberalboy]

289. Vancouver is as mild as most of the west coast...

the application as a skilled worker takes 2 years, never hurts to "start" the process :-)

[LostinVA]

326. I have dual citizenship (US-Italian/EU)

I need to see if I can get Haruka an Italian passport, too. Just in case.

[mmonk]

330. How does one get dual citizenship?

I've often wondered because I sure would like that escape valve (though most countries I presume will consider me too old).

[LostinVA]

331. It all depends

My great-grandfather didn't become an American citizen under after my GF was born. Thus, under Italian law, both my family and I (and my sister, of course), automatically are Italian citizens. I just had to prove it, which cost me about 18 months and $500. If you have any relatively recent immigrants in your family, check and see what their country of origin's laws are on this, and US laws, of course. The US only recognizes dual citizenship with a smallish number of countries.

Barring that, Canada has an online test you can take to see if you have enough points. You also have to have a certain amount of money, especially if you're over a certain age. If you're a techie or nurse, you could get into New Zealand.

I can live and work in any EU country. I need to check out what Haruka's status would be. Hey, Ireland would be a great place to retire to!

[mmonk]

337. No such luck for me. I didn't do too well on the Canadian test.

I might could get in on some business route. In the UK, I could turn alot of my wealth over and have it invested in Government bonds, but not be able to touch it for awhile (I'm looking for something less drastic). Oh well.

[theHandpuppet]

292. Well I guess we now know where we stand around here

Lirwin2's poll on the McClurkin issue shows that over 50% of DUers think McClurkin is a "Non-issue. Get over it!"

I'll say one thing about this open discussion on the McClurkin debacle -- it's really opened my eyes as to how much support we DON'T have even among those in a so-called "progressive" community. Either they just don't get it or, as I suspected in my OP, they really don't give a rat's ass. It all feels the same, really. The only surprise is that over 50% of the people here freely admit they don't give a shit. And if our fellow Democrats and progressives don't care, we haven't a snowball's chance in hell for real change.

Thanks to Lirwin2 for posting a poll which exposed the painful truth. As bad as it was to see the results, I still needed to know.

[hulklogan]

293. I'm thinking it's about time to stop waiting for the militant straights to take care of us

and start taking care of ourselves. I was going to donate money to the Democratic candidate after the nomination was sealed up, but now I'm going to donate that money to a local GLBT service organization instead. And I would encourage anyone else to do the same.

[theHandpuppet]

294. You're right, hulklogan

And thanks for an excellent suggestion.

:thumbsup:

[theHandpuppet]

295. By the way...

My partner and I are supporters of The Point Foundation. For those who haven't heard of this great project, here's a link:
http://www.pointfoundation.org/

[Iceburg]

317. What a wonderful idea /nt

[NMMNG]

297. Interesting. A number of us have been thinking the same thing.

Those who already have all of their Human/Civil Rights seem content to sit on the pot and keep telling us to hold on, wait, just be patient....or worse yet to STFU, "get over it", and such.

I'm sick and tired of people holding hostage what is rightfully ours. If they don't want to give it up they can stop asking for anything from us. We need to stop being their personal ATM machines when they're not giving us a damn thing in return.

[terrya]

308. I agree.

I'm not contributing financially to any of the candidates anymore. There are GLBT groups that can use my money more.

Be a partner with the Human Rights Campaign. Contribute to the Lambda Legal Defense Fund. Or...local groups. In Chicago, there's a place called Center on Halsted that is a recent addition to the GLBT community here. I could contribute to that fine organization.

[Jamastiene]

299. I'm not the least bit surprised, really.

A lot of people who claim to no be homophobic have certain calling cards. They start anything they say to me off with "I'm not homphobic but..." I know right then and there, I'm getting ready to hear some homophobic tripe bullshit nonsense. I start thinking happy thoughts and tune them out. I refuse to waste precious time in my life listening to their bullshit any more. I say we split off and start another party for those who are sick of the exhaust fumes. It would attract the real liberals in America, the real left wing, not these so-called "crossover," "moderate" or "undecided" or "middle of the road" bullshit lying phony DINOs and outright Republicans who have camped out in GD: P the last few weeks. I've had it with them. The whole damn bunch of them could fall into a black hole and I wouldn't even call for any rescue efforts. I say give them a taste of their own medicine. I'm dead inside at this point. I have no empathy or feelings of camaraderie or even "compromise for the so-called good" at this point. They can all shove it up their asses. Hey, it's only fair. They've been treating us like we would want to be treated, right? So, let's treat them with as much common courtesy right the fuck back.

Yeah, I'm pissed off as hell right now.

[NMMNG]

302. Happy Valentine's Day

Your post just made me smile. :evilgrin:

[Jamastiene]

316. Happy Valentine's Day to you too.

Every once in a while I get to the point where I've had it and I go off. I foresee a lot of going off on them posts until some of them either start listening or show their truly ugly mugs for me to add them to my ever expanding ignore list. I shall have the Largest Ignore List of all after this primary season is finished. Maybe we should start a Phobe Ignore List Who's Who Competition. I can guarantee our lists will be very similar. :evilgrin:

[Marrah_G]

323. I'm so sorry- You would think things would be different here at DU.

Just please remember that the glass is also half full. There are lots of us here who want and demand full rights for all citizens.

Sometimes I just wish the North East would secede and form it's own progressive country.

[LostinVA]

328. Believe me when I say that GLBT DUers know who their allies are on here

And, you are DEFINITELY at the top of the list.

[theHandpuppet]

334. Ditto that.

Many thanks for your support. It's a comfort at a time like this.

[Marrah_G]

339. Happy V-day to you and the little Mrs.!

[xchrom]

333. obama would have to do more than apologise for mcklurkin -- he would have

to have to retract this statement as well: "Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination," Obama said. "I think it is the right balance to strike in this society."
Sources: Chicago Daily Tribune, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force

as far as i'm concerned -- obama has very deep ugly feelings about gay folk and their issues.

he thinks we are untrained animals -- in need of some ''special basic rights'' to teach us to behave like human beings.

and donnie wasn't the only anti-gay bigot in S.C there were four acts all together -- including one singer who compares lgbtq folk to murderers.

no i'm not happy about obama -- never will be.

any step forward i get from this man will be bitter -- because i think he really has ugly issues re: the lgbtq community.

and i also think that there has been quite a bit of internalized or soft anti-gay bigotry exposed here at DU.

[Iceburg]

343. "Giving them a set of basic rights" ... how

inspiring pathetic.

[NMMNG]

344. Indeed

In myriad ways Obama has shown he's just not up to the task.

Set of basic rights.... You mean like a starter set to prove we can handle the challenge? What are we, children? When do we get the full set?

...would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination In other words we cause bigoted jagoffs to engage in discrimination against us? Right, the old blame the victim shtick. That's right up there with "They're sinners, sinners sinners sinners....but we're all sinners (just not sinners like they are) so we shouldn't cast stones".


And I'm right with you on the rest of your post. But don't forget Kirbyjon Caldwell.