Strange bedfellows: Obama Dems and Conservative GOP

[OzarkDem]

The oddest part of this primary race is the alignment of Obama supporters with the group they have maligned for the last 8 years - conservative Republicans.

Both groups support Obama and want to see him elected instead of Hillary Clinton. Both groups support his policies, one calling him a conservative, business friendly Democrat who is no danger to the status quo, the other calling him a champion of liberal issues who will bring change and reform our country.

Its a prime example of Obama's legendary Shape shifting skills - telling people what they want to hear yet standing for nothing. Its a disturbing trait for someone who seeks to be the leader of the US during a time of crisis. In the final analysis, no one really knows what he stands for.

My question: how do Obama's Dem supporters reconcile the fact that they are now in complete agreement with people like Rush Limbaugh, Robert Novak, Tim Russert and others? How do you rationalize supporting someone who is less than forthcoming with the public? Its an honest question and deserves an honest answer.

[journalist3072]

1. For them, it's not about Obama. It's about stopping the strongest Dem candidate: Sen. Clinton.

Contrary to popular belief here on DU and elswhere, the GOP does NOT want to go up against Sen. Hillary Clinton in November.

They know she's a strong candidate, and that she will not take their B.S. Unlike John Kerry, she won't wait a month to respond to false allegations against her.

So, the GOP's support of Obama right now, is all about getting the weakest Dem candidate to win the nomination, which would be Obama.

[Hepburn]

3. Good point, IMO. n/t

[sloppyjoe25s]

45. *lol* no candidate would unite the right better than Mrs. Clinton

Yes - as many have pointed out - and the OP calls "shape changing".

The Nation called it "Redfining the center in American Politics"

and

"The best hope for a progressive agenda"

Correct on both counts.

[OzarkDem]

49. Who cares who the 28% group support?

Any good Dem candidate should be able to win without courting the vote of conservative Republicans. So why does Obama and his supporters feel the need to do so at the risk of alienating so many Democrats, especially women voters?

Why are they currying favor with the 28% crowd?

[sloppyjoe25s]

59. Obama will never win "conservatives" - he's talking to moderates

ie the 65% crowd in the country.

There are no hard core conservatives that are going to vote for him. They call him "pro abortion" and "muslim"

There are a TON of independents who are fiscally conservative (in that they think we can't have deficits foreever and remain prosperous), not wild about abortion, but generally ok with the status quo of Roe v. Wade, and who think Washington is BROKEN, and that things are out-of-balance, and that Iraq was a bad idea, and quite simply that:

"we need a change and to do something different"

and that is who he is speaking to. They will vote Obama - because he makes sense to them. Oh - and many of them go to church - even though they are not the "evangelical nuts" of the far right.

He is doing nothing at all to "curry favor" with real "far right" conservatives.

[OzarkDem]

64. Another Obama myth

all the moderate voters support him. Not so.

[sloppyjoe25s]

82. Did not say all support him

I said who he is talking to. Obviously they don't all support him - but they are the 65% crowd he's talking to.

Post something on-point and of substance or don't post a reply at all.

[krkaufman]

139. Who said "all"? It's pretty easy to create myths ...

... when you're fabricating them magically.

[MsMagnificent]

131. Not true

I visited many Conservative blogs after Romney quit and it was amazing how many of them wanted Obama.

It's bothersome.

[Independent-Voter]

160. You are exactly right. People that can't see this must have their heads up their asses

[RiverStone]

95. Gawd, this is like arguing religion!

Hillary is the one who is alienating so many voters! She has the highest negative rating of any candidate from either party. I know many indies, some Dems, and even disaffected rethugs who absolutely REFUSE to ever voter for her. And I'm amazed how many indie and rethug (acquaintances) I have are planning to vote for Obama.

You call it appealing to to rethugs.

I call it appealing to a broad representation of folks, I call it appealing to unity, I call it THE WAY TO WIN IN THE FALL.

I can't fathom how Hillary supporters see her ever winning over indies and disaffected pukes - when her name alone causes a resounding NO!

Obama = victory and that is so damn obvious (well, to Obama supporters anyway) :hi:

[OzarkDem]

106. Keep drinkng that kool aid

and reaching out to Rush. Ok for you, not for me. :hi:

[RiverStone]

124. I'm voting for our party's nominee...

I sure as hell hope it's Obama - but Hillary would get my vote.

Would Obama get yours OzarkDem? :shrug:

[krkaufman]

140. Hey, let's not forget that Hillary is the preferred candidate of Rush & Coulter, eh? n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

153. or that "GREENSPAN: I thought Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we've had in a while."

On the Neal Caputo Show, from the transcripts Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan on Interest Rates,
Bush Economic Policy, Personal Legacy

GREENSPAN: I thought Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we've had in a while.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297250,00.html

[krkaufman]

159. Ssssshh... don't burst the Hill&Billy bubble...

I think they're impervious to facts, are our own little 25%ers, but I'm afraid of the consequences if some packet of reality manages to find its way past their cognitive dissonance firewalls.

[creeksneakers2]

136. They'd unite

because they are afraid of what she might do to them, which is plenty. If they didn't think she could win they wouldn't be afraid. The Clintons terrify the right because they have a first class political operation that can't be destroyed with a few negative ads.

Some of the reasons the right hates Hillary are also reasons she'd make a great president.

[krkaufman]

138. Or how about some more triangulation ...

... and continued decomp of the Democratic corpse?

[VotesForWomen]

158. they may hate her; that doesn't mean they can beat her. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. The GOP has been wrong about everything for the past 7 years

(and actually, much longer than that) so why would they be right in thinking that Obama would be the weaker candidate?

Which candidate has the strongest ties to big business? Which candidate takes the most corporate lobbyist money? Which candidate has cooperated with the administration of all its major initiatives, particularly the war? Which candidate has only had a single real fight for office, which is currently a losing fight?

OTOH, there is possibly a factor in that the RWingnuts know that we dislike everything about them, and they are hoping that dislike will rub off on the candidate that they appear to favor, throwing more support to Hillary The Inevitable, who was given a free ride by the media for two years until Edwards and Obama made themselve too obvious to ignore.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

154. Barbara Bush about Bill Clinton: "as I now call him, son."

Discussing Bill Clinton's friendship with GH Bush:

Ms. BARBARA BUSH: It's my great honor to introduce America's favorite new couple. Forget all those women on "Desperate Housewives." Everyone is talking about the odd couple, George and Bill, or as I now call him, son.
http://www.clintonfoundation.org/050605-cf-gn-ee-tsu-usa-ts-wjc-and-ghwb-discuss-their-partnership-and-friendship.htm

[Hepburn]

2. Conservative business people and social conservatives are NOT the same.

Case in point: My best male pal. He is EXTREMELY conservative in regard to business policies and the 2nd Amendment. However, on social issues such as gay marriage and abortion, he is as liberal as I am.

He hates Hillary and cannot stand McCain....but...he is slightly leaning towards Obama and will vote for him if I can find something to ease his concerns over Obama's gun control positions. If not, he pretty much has said that he will sit out the Novmember election.

And...he thinks Rush is an asshole.

[OzarkDem]

5. That doesn't explain Rush Limbaugh

and all his supporters who ARE social and business conservatives.

[Hepburn]

14. Rush is supporting Obama???

LMBO.......:rofl: You gotta link to support that contention?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

156. Who's the Bigger Hawk, George or Hillary?

Who's the Bigger Hawk, George or Hillary? - by Joshua Frank

http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=8515

[yourout]

12. Well said.........this is precisly why Hillary CAN NOT WIN!

She will loose by 10 points to McCain as the Pukes will turn out in droves to vote AGAINST Hillary.....not for McCain.

While 10 percent of the potential Independant vote either stays home or votes AGAINST Hillary.

[OzarkDem]

21. No, that's a myth

One that has been promoted both by the GOP and Obama's campaign. Very odd, itsn't it?

There are more than enought Dems and independent voters to carry the Dems into the WH.

[yourout]

24. It's no myth in the circles I travel.......Independants and Moderate Pukes...

that I talk politics with almost universaly will not vote for Hillary but will vote for Obama.

[OzarkDem]

32. Not in my circles

and its not supported in public opinion. Its all crazy spin and obfuscation right now. Sad that Obama thinks he needs to win by confusing voters. Again, another GOP tactic.

Do you think if elected he will change overnight and start being honest and straightforward again? I don't think so.

[Hepburn]

29. Says you!

LOL....:rofl:

Take some responsibility for your candidate, OK? She is disliked because she is preceived as not being trustworthy and being insincere. I don't trust her and I don't like her and I hope to hell we are not stupid enough to nominate a sure loser like Hillary for the Novmeber elections. If we do, people like you will be the ones responsible for <gag me> President McCain. Hello to bombing Iran and escalating Iraq. Johnny Boy has some baggage to settle about the US withdrawal in VN and there is no doubt what the asshole POS will do in order to deal with his personal history, IMO.

BTW: I would be damn hard to manipulate by the press...or are you just saying I am not bright enought to know why I dislike Hillary Clinton to the very core of my being...and that came about since she first came on the national political scene. She is someone I would NEVER consider trusting.

Sheesh...get a clue, OK? It's YOUR candidate and NOT the press or the RW GOP...the problem is Hillary.

JMHO

[OzarkDem]

33. This discussion is about Obama

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. At this point in the campaign, any discussion about Obama

IS a discussion about Hillary.

[OzarkDem]

51. Sorry, get real

if you can't discuss your own candidate, you don't make much of a case for him.

[Hepburn]

22. Thank you....

...and I know that he would stay home and not vote or maybe even go and vote just to vote against Hillary. However: There is NO hope for a Dem vote from him if she is our nominee. He literally hates her with a passion. But, he sure as heck does NOT feel like that about Obama.

I am telling ya, so many people I know voice negative sentiments against Hillary, it is not just bad press ~~ IMO, it is because is truly disliked. Hell, I am a life-long Dem and I cannot stand her. If she is the nominee, I would have to go to hold my nose to vote for her and it would be more of a vote against McCain and not a vote for Hillary.

JMHO

[OzarkDem]

36. Obama's support is very shallow

you can't build a campaign on simply hating Hillary. Every person I've talked to who supported Obama has been easy to dissuade. It takes about 5 - 10 minutes of discussion before they begin supporting Clinton. The "everyone hates Hillary" meme is a myth I've found very easy to overcome.

[yourout]

41. ..."It takes about 5 - 10 minutes of discussion before they begin supporting Clinton."

Please......after listening to you rail against Obama for 5 to 10 minutes they probably nod their head to get you to go away and be quiet.

[OzarkDem]

53. No, they are genuinely surprised

When they find that most of the talking points they've been given about Obama and about Clinton are false.

Particularly easy ones: Obama doesn't accept money from lobbyists or corporattions (pretty dumb talking point, easily disproven)

Obama supports health care for all: another easy one to disprove.

Hillary Clinton is very unpopular: very easy

Obama will bring jobs back to the US: another easy one

Its all pretty shallow stuff that's easy to refute, simply because Obama has been given a free ride by the news media and there's been little questioning of what he's saying.

[krkaufman]

141. Plus, Obama is a man: very easy.

:rofl:

[Hepburn]

118. Gawd, you read my mind!

I am thinking the OP is sooooooo obnoxious, to make him/her go away, I would probably say that I would pledge my only child to enlist in the army to be sent to Iraq ~~ on the fucking front lines.

And the OP has no clue why Hillary is so disliked?? Geeeeez, the OP is a mirror of everything that is distasteful about Hillary!

JMHO

[elocs]

26. I have a good friend who bleeds Republican and he will not vote for McCain unless

Hillary is the Democratic choice. If the Democrats nominate Obama he simply would not vote for president. I don't want a Democratic nominee who inspires the Republicans to get out and vote against her.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

157. Tomorrow's Neocon Today

Tomorrow's Neocon Today

Why Clinton II wouldn't offer much change from Bush II

Radley Balko | October 19, 2007

...The problem with Hillary Clinton is two-fold: First, she's likely to be as bad or worse than Bush on all of those issues, and second, she's the one Democrat the Republicans still have a chance to beat.

Start with Clinton's general election vulnerabilities. No Democrat inspires more wrath and anger on the right than Hillary Clinton. This isn't because of her policy positions—on most issues, she's really not all that far removed from President Bush. It's leftover partisan anger from the Bill Clinton years.

And while I can understand the temptation on the left to want to stick it to their political opponents by putting their worst nightmare in the White House, it's also worth noting that morale on the right is down right now. They're disappointed in their political leadership—with the scandals, the spending, and the uninspired politicking. Campaign contributions are down. Motivation is lagging. Why give them the one general election opponent most likely to get them fired up and, more importantly, writing checks again?

...

http://www.reason.com/news/show/123103.html

[ericgtr]

4. You are right to a degree but it's all for different reasons

and for better or worse, Obama is doing exactly what he claims to do and that's uniting people.

[OzarkDem]

10. No, he's confusing them; he's very divisive

and he's dividing the Democratic party, demonizing any Dem who doesn't support him, insulting Dem women who want to run for office and who support Dem women candidates.

I wouldn't call splitting the party in half and aligining them with Conservative Republicans a unity thing.

[ericgtr]

20. Sorry but I cannot agree with that

by defending himself against Hillary's vicious attacks he's splitting the party? I think not. Of course if you are her supporter you would think he should just lie down and take it but that's not very realistic. She has spawned an outright attack on him and he's handling it with class which turns it around on her, Bill and even Chelsea now.

You are going to have to do better than claiming he's splitting the party up just because your candidate is tanking.

[OzarkDem]

23. By using race baiting tactics

and by aligning himself with the corporate news media and GOP who help him in his mission to defeat Clinton.

You need to address the wide disparities in the messages he sends to both sides, how he uses his shapeshifting techniques in an attempt to meld his Dem supporters with conservative Republicans.

[Hepburn]

31. If this makes sense to you....

...IMO, you have been drinking the Kool Aid far too long.

JMHO

[krkaufman]

142. Fret not. In another thread, the poster's main argument for voting for Hillary ...

... is that "it's time for a woman President." As shallow as a Georgia lake.

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. Projecting much? nt

[UALRBSofL]

6. I understand where you are coming from

Looking at his NAFTA vote and his policy on the Iraq occupation is something to be concerned with. I don't see real progressive liberals accepting his position on these issues. Had Kucinich been a front runner I would have voted for him. Just my opinion.

[Neecy]

7. I don't believe that's the case

Conservative Republicans will vote for the GOP candidate, period. Obama has been attracting moderate Republicans who have felt alienated from their party for years, primarily because it's been hijacked by the religious right. I have no problem welcoming moderate Republicans into our party.

[LisaL]

17. He is attracting them in the primary. Hello.

GE will be a totally different thing.

[Neecy]

39. Maybe not....

The reason my red state has a Democratic governor, a Democratic AG, and two Democrats in the House is because moderate Republicans crossed over to vote for them. The fundies in their party - and they're very active here and have practically hijacked their party leadership - scare the hell out of them. And we've had some very high-profile moderate Republicans change parties and win office as Democrats. I think the excesses of the Bush years are going to bring a lot of moderates to our ticket because McCain is more of the same.

[OzarkDem]

44. These aren't moderate Republicans

they're conservatives and powerful ones at that. What do you have in common with their POV and support of Obama?

[Neecy]

52. who?

I've said that many moderate Republicans feel alienated from their own party and are supporting Obama in my state. You've turned that into my having something in common with conservative Republicans. Nice stalking horse. We're all Democrats here and you might keep that in mind before you attack.

[OzarkDem]

58. and most of the moderate GOP'ers I know support Clinton

we're talking about the right wingers, here.

[Neecy]

65. well, that's your state

To claim that only moderate Republicans support Clinton (and I don't know a single one who does, but in your world my own experience is invalid) in Southern Missouri or where ever the hell you are doesn't mean this is the case elsewhere. You make yourself sound ridiculous by claiming this.

True right-wingers aren't going to support a Democrat either in the primaries or in the GE. Trying to tie the far right around the necks of Obama supporters is a crude, ugly smear and you aren't winning any points for your candidate by doing so.

[OzarkDem]

67. I live in Ohio

and at this point I'm not losing any sleep over getting Obama supporters upset. I don't dislike them, they're not thinking rationally, they've been caught up in a "movement". I feel sorry for them when they wake up.

But no, I don't worry about what they say to me.

[Hepburn]

121. LOL....

...I don't know one Pubbie that supports Hillary, they HATE her. Ohio must have changed since I lived there!

[Hepburn]

119. What I have in common with the RWs???

I probably dislike Hillary as much as they do and I am a life-long staunch very liberal Dem who has worked in countless elections over the past nearly 50 years and have NEVER voted for a Pubbie.

Next question?

[krkaufman]

143. Who are you talking about? You've provided no facts to support your claims ...

... that Obama is aligned with ANY Conservative Republicans?

[OzarkDem]

37. Rush Limbaugh and his followers are not moderates

so what is it you and those people see in common re Obama?

[krkaufman]

144. Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter have voiced their support for Hillary...

... should McCain be the Republican nominee. Ya wanna try again?

[JimGinPA]

8. Have You Noticed...

Since 1992 nothing has been getting done in Wash. because of the bitter partisanship. A vote for Hillary is a vote for more of the same, but probably much worse.

[OzarkDem]

15. No. What I have noticed

is that the GOP has been in contol of our government for the last several years and their bankrupt policies have not only been divisive, they've destroyed our economy, our health care system our infrastructure and our future.

Dems in DC have tried to "get along" and work with them, with disastrous results. Our country will only succeed if we begin being an opposition party, one that rejects failed GOP policies insted of embracing them.

[krkaufman]

145. Agreed. Which is why the DLC/Clinton policy of triangulation must be wholly rejected ...

... and we need to work towards a 50 State Strategy where we reach-out to independents and disaffected Republicans to build a new working majority and take the country in a new direction, rather than continuing the Reaganomics free market agenda promoted during the Clinton Presidency.

[joeybee12]

16. Oh yeah, and EVERYTHING got accomplished prior to 1992...

...geesh...blame the constant partisan bickering on Bill and Hillary...there has always been partisanship and always will be. Recall the Civil War when members of the Senate actually physically hit each other? They're all not gonna suddenly play nice when and if BO gets in.

[in_cog_ni_to]

109. You need a dose of reality.

Bill Clinton's AWESOME record:

longest economic expansion in American history--a record 115 months of economic expansion
More than 22 million new jobs: more than 22 million jobs were created in less than eight years -- the most ever under a single administration
Highest home ownership in American history
Made the Federal government smaller (a feat matched only by Harry Truman; if you like small government, vote Democratic)
Lowest unemployment in 30 years: unemployment dropped from more than 7 percent in 1993 to just 4.0 percent in November 2000; unemployment for African Americans and Hispanics fell to the lowest rates on record, and the rate for women was the lowest in more than 40 years
Largest expansion of college opportunity since the GI Bill
Connected 95 percent of schools to the Internet
Lowest crime rate in 26 years.
Family and Medical Leave Act for 20 million Americans
Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years
Higher incomes at all levels: after falling by nearly $2,000 between 1988 and 1992, the median family's income rose by $6,338, after adjusting for inflation; all income brackets experienced double-digit growth; the bottom 20 percent saw the largest income growth at 16.3 percent
Lowest poverty rate in 20 years: the poverty rate declined from 15.1 percent to 11.8 percent in 1999--the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years
Lowest teen birth rate in 60 years
Lowest infant mortality rate in American history
Deactivated more than 1,700 nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union: efforts of the Clinton-Gore Administration led to the dismantling of more than 1,700 nuclear warheads, 300 launchers and 425 land and submarine based missiles from the former Soviet Union
Paid off $360 billion of the national debt: under Clinton, we were on track to pay off the entire debt by 2009; what a difference a stolen election makes...
Converted the largest budget deficit in American history to the largest surplus
Lowest government spending in three decades
Lowest federal income tax burden in 35 years
More families owned stock than ever before
Most New Jobs Ever Created Under a Single Administration: Republicans really chew the rug when you mention this one, so it's worth repeating constantly
Median Family Income Up $6,000 since 1993
Unemployment at Its Lowest Level in More than 30 Years
Highest Home ownership Rate on Record
7 Million Fewer Americans Living in Poverty
Largest Surplus Ever
Lower Federal Government Spending: after increasing under the previous two administrations, federal government spending as a share of the economy was cut from 22.2 percent in 1992 to 18 percent in 2000--the lowest level since 1966
The Most U.S. Exports Ever: between 1992 and 2000, U.S. exports of goods and services grew by 74 percent, or nearly $500 billion, to top $1 trillion for the first time
Lowest Inflation since the 1960s: inflation was at the lowest rate since the Kennedy Administration, averaging 2.5 percent, down from 4.6 percent during the previous administration
The child poverty rate declined more than 25 percent
The poverty rate for single mothers was the lowest ever
The African American and elderly poverty rates dropped to their lowest level on record
The Hispanic poverty rate dropped to its lowest level since 1979
Lowest Poverty Rate for Single Mothers on Record: under President Clinton, the poverty rate for families with single mothers fell from 46.1 percent in 1993 to 35.7 percent in 1999, the lowest level on record
Smallest Welfare Rolls Since 1969: between January 1993 and September of 1999, the number of welfare recipients dropped by 7.5 billion (a 53 percent decline) to 6.6 million. In comparison, between 1981-1992, the number of welfare recipients increased by 2.5 million (a 22 percent increase) to 13.6 million people
Lowest Federal Income Tax Burden in 35 Years: Federal income taxes as a percentage of income for the typical American family dropped to their lowest level in 35 years
Higher Incomes even after Taxes and Inflation: real after-tax incomes grew by an average of 2.6 percent per year for the lower-income half of taxpayers between 1993 and 1997, while growing by an average of 1.0 percent between 1981 and 1993
AGAINST TERRORISM

# PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to kill the Pope.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Boston airport.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.
# Bill Clinton tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).
# Bill Clinton brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.
# Bill Clinton did not blame the Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after Bush left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.
# Bill Clinton named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.
# Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.
# Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.
# Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.
# Bill Clinton increased the military budget by an average of 14 per cent, reversing the trend under Bush I.
# Bill Clinton tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.
# Bill Clinton detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries.
# Bill Clinton created national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.
# Of Clinton's efforts says Robert Oakley, Reagan Ambassador for Counterterrorism: "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama".
# Paul Bremer, current Civilian Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley as he believed the Bill Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden.
# Barton Gellman in the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Bill Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort".
http://liberalslikechrist.org/about/clinton.html
ON THE ENVIRONMENT
Bill Clinton issued an Executive Order on Environmental Justice to ensure that low-income citizens and minorities do not suffer a disproportionate burden of industrial pollution. Launched pilot projects in low-income communities across the country to redevelop contaminated sites into useable space, create jobs and enhance community development.

President Bill Clinton sought permanent funding of $1.4 billion a year through the Lands Legacy initiative to expand federal efforts to save America's natural treasures and provide significant new resources to states and communities to protect local green spaces and protect ocean and coastal resources. Won $652 million for Lands Legacy in the FY 2000 budget, a 42 percent increase.

Launched effort to protect over 40 million acres of "roadless areas," which include some of America's last wild places. Dramatically improved management of our national forests with an ambitious new science-based agenda that places greater emphasis on recreation, wildlife and water quality, while reforming logging practices to ensure steady, sustainable supplies of timber and jobs. Balanced the preservation of old-growth stands with the economic needs of timber-dependent communities through the Pacific Northwest Forest Plan.

Adopted a uniform tailpipe standard to passenger cars, SUVs and other light-duty trucks, producing cars that are 77 percent cleaner -- and light-duty trucks up to 95 percent cleaner -- than those on the road today. Set new standard to reduce average sulfur levels in gasoline by up to 90 percent. Once fully implemented in 2030, these measures will prevent 43,000 premature deaths and 173,000 cases of childhood respiratory illness each year, and reduce emissions by the equivalent to removing 164 million cars from the road.

# Approved strong new clean air standards for soot and smog that could prevent up to 15,000 premature deaths a year and improve the lives of millions of Americans who suffer from respiratory illnesses. Defending the standards against legal assaults by polluters.

# Accelerating Toxic Waste Cleanups. Completed cleanup at 515 Superfund sites, more than three times as many as the previous two administrations, with cleanup of more than 90 percent of all sites either completed or in progress. Secured $1.4 billion in FY 2000 to continue progress toward cleaning up 900 Superfund sites by 2002.

# Providing Safe Drinking Water: Proposed and signed legislation to strengthen the Safe Drinking Water Act and ensure that our families have healthy clean tap water. Required America's 55,000 water utility companies to provide regular reports to their customers on the quality of their drinking water.

# Established EPA's Drinking Water State Revolving Fund (DWSRF) that provides grants to States to finance priority drinking water projects that meet Clean Water Act mandates. To date, the DWSRFs have provided $1.9 billion in loans to communities.

# Awarded nearly $200 million in Department of Agriculture (USDA) loans and grants for over 100 safe drinking water projects in rural areas of 40 states. USDA grants and loans target rural communities plagued by some of the nation's worst water quality and dependability problems.

# Expanded Safe Drinking Water Act protections to protect 40 million additional Americans in small communities from potentially dangerous microbes, including Cryptosporidium, in their drinking water.

# Ensuring Clean Water. Launched the Clean Water Action Plan to help clean up the 40 percent of America's surveyed waterways still too polluted for fishing and swimming. Secured $3.9 billion since 1998, a 16 percent increase, to help states, communities and landowners in reducing polluted runoff, enhancing natural resource stewardship, improving citizens' right to know, and protecting public health.

# Strengthening Communities' Right to Know. Strengthened the public's right to know about chemicals released into their air and water by partnering with the chemical industry and the environmental community in an effort to provide complete data on the potential health risks of the 2,800 most widely used chemicals. Nearly doubled the number of chemicals that industry must report to communities, while expanding the number of facilities that must report by 30 percent.

# Expanded the community right to know about releases of 27 persistent bio-accumulative toxins (including mercury, dioxin, and PCBs). These highly toxic chemicals are especially risky because they do not break down easily and are known to accumulate in the human body.

# Secured $83 million in FY 2000 for two major new efforts to restore salmon in the Pacific Northwest: $58 million for the Pacific Coastal Salmon Recovery Fund, which provides resources for states and tribes to protect and rebuild salmon stocks; and $25 million to implement the historic Pacific Salmon Treaty with Canada, which established two regional funds to improve fisheries management and enhance bilateral scientific cooperation between the two countries and provides funding to buy back fishing permits in Washington.
# Expanding Wildlife Refuges. Added 57,000 acres, including lands along the last free-flowing section of the Columbia River, to the Saddle Mountain National Wildlife Refuge to protect salmon habitat in Washington.

# Forging Partnerships to Protect Habitat. Completed 255 major Habitat Conservation Plans (HCPs), compared to 14 before the Administration took office, to protect more than 20 million acres of private land and over 170 threatened and endangered species. These voluntary agreements protect habitat while providing landowners the certainty they need to effectively manage their lands.

# Strengthening Protections for Wildlife. Signed legislation that strengthens protections for wildlife by mandating that the most important use of our nation's wildlife refuges is giving refuge to migratory birds and other animals reliant on this rich system of natural habitat.

Protecting our Oceans and Coasts

# Creating Comprehensive Oceans Policy. Directed the development of key recommendations for strengthening federal oceans policy for the 21st century and appointed a high-level task force to oversee the implementation of those recommendations. Convened a National Ocean Conference in June 1998 that brought together government experts, business executives, scientists, environmentalists, elected officials and the public to examine opportunities and challenges in restoring and protecting our ocean resources.

# Strengthening Our National Marine Sanctuaries. Secured a funding increase of over 100% to better support national marine sanctuaries -- homes to coral reefs, kelp forests, humpback whales, and loggerhead turtles. Supporting the five-year Sustainable Seas Expeditions to explore, study and document ways to better protect underwater resources.

# Preserving Coral Reefs. Issued an Executive Order to expand protection of coral reefs and their ecosystems to address issues of coral reef management, expansion of marine protected areas and increased protections for coral reef species.

# Protecting Marine Mammals. Led negotiations resulting in a multilateral agreement to protect dolphins in the eastern tropical Pacific Ocean. Issued new standards to protect the endangered northern right whale from injuries from ships by instituting a first-ever ship reporting requirement in two areas of right whale critical habitat. Fought for creation of the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, an area of more than 12 million square miles off the coast of Antarctica.

# Banning Ocean Dumping of Toxic Waste. Led the world in calling for a global ban on ocean dumping of low-level radioactive waste. The U.S. was the first nuclear power to advocate the ban.

Introduced "Better America Bonds" to generate $10.75 billion in bond authority over five years to preserve open space, improve water quality and clean up abandoned and contaminated properties known as brownfields. Local communities can work together in partnerships with land trust groups, environmentalists, business leaders and others to develop innovative solutions to their community's development challenges.

# Provided leadership critical to successful negotiation of the Kyoto Protocol, which sets strong, realistic targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions and establishes flexible, market-based mechanisms to achieve them as cost-effectively as possible.

# Investing in Clean Energy Research. Won more than $1 billion in FY 1999 and in FY 2000 for the Climate Change Technology Initiative, a program of clean energy research and development that will save energy and consumers money. Extended the tax credits for wind and biomass energy production through 2001, reducing emissions and reliance on imported oil.

# Growing Clean Energy Technologies. Issued an Executive Order to coordinate federal efforts to spur the development and use of bio-based technologies, which can convert crops, trees and other "biomass" into a vast array of fuels and materials. Set a goal of tripling our use of bioenergy and bioproducts by 2010 to reduce annual greenhouse gas emissions by up to 100 million tons a year -- the equivalent of taking 70 million cars off the road.

# Improving Scientific Understanding. Increased funding for the United States Global Change Research Program to more than $1.7 billion in FY 2000 to provide a sound scientific understanding of both the human and natural forces that influence the Earth's climate system. This record research budget continues strong support for the "Carbon Cycle Initiative" begun last year to improve our understanding of the role of farms, forests, and other natural or managed lands in capturing carbon.

# Energy Efficiency Standards for Appliances. Issued new energy efficiency standards for refrigerators, refrigerator-freezers, freezers and room air conditioners that will save consumers money and reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and dependence on foreign oil. The new standards will cut the average appliance's energy usage by 30 percent and save more than seven quadrillion BTUs of energy over the next 30 years, more than seven times the annual energy consumption of the entire state of Arkansas.

# Promoting federal Energy Efficiency. Issued an Executive Order directing federal agencies to reduce energy use in buildings 35 percent by 2010, reducing annual greenhouse gas emissions by the equivalent of taking 1.7 million cars off the road and saving taxpayers over $750 million a year. Forged new partnerships with industry to develop and promote energy-saving cars, homes and consumer products with the potential to save Americans hundreds of millions of dollars in energy bills and significantly curb greenhouse gas pollution.
http://www.environmentalcaucus.org/gore.html

[LisaL]

9. Do the republicans want him elected, or just get the nomination?

Somehow I doubt they will vote for him in GE.
Then it will be, hello, president McCain.

[OzarkDem]

25. Most likely

But does Obama realize this? If he does, why is he continuing with this bizarre strategy? Does he think he can overcome it or is he trying to cut some kind of deal with Republicans if they let him win?

[Rageneau]

11. Maybe it's beyond politics. Maybe they share the same personalities.

Many anti-Hillary posts I've seen right here on DU could have come directly from Rush, G Gordon, Tweety, and their ilk.

In fact, some of the posts I've seen here on DU originally DID come flying directly out the butt of the right-wing media.

Birds of a feather.

[Cameron27]

19. I agree

[OzarkDem]

28. We see them every day

Its very bizarre and I can't help but think if people weren't so caught up in the mass hypnotic effect of his campaign they would feel very embarrased about what they're doing.

Have you also noticed, many of these same people never discuss important political issues any longer except in the context of using them to attack Clinton? Its ugly and I feel embarrassed for them.

[Mz Pip]

13. In answer to your question

<<My question: how do Obama's Dem supporters reconcile the fact that they are now in complete agreement with people like Rush Limbaugh, Robert Novak, Tim Russert and others? How do you rationalize supporting someone who is less than forthcoming with the public? Its an honest question and deserves an honest answer...>>

Why should we have to? I'd need a super magic decoder ring to try to figure out the motivations of the likes of Rush, Novak and Russert. Is it reverse psychology? Is it super secret double reverse psychology? :shrug: I really don't care what they think or what they spin.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[OzarkDem]

30. Interesting

So you don't feel the need to defend abandoning core principles?

[Mz Pip]

34. My core principles

are not defined by the likes of Rush Limpballs, Tim Russert or Bob Novak.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[OzarkDem]

38. So why are you both supporting

the same candidate?

[Mz Pip]

40. If you really believe

that Rush and Novak are really supporting Obama I have a bridge to sell you. :crazy:

[OzarkDem]

54. So why are they shilling for him?

[Mz Pip]

56. Probably to

piss people off. To mess with their heads. They like that sort of thing. It's theater to them.

[Armstead]

18. It's a complex question, but also a simple one

Personally, my ideal candidate would be Dennis Kucinich's brain inside of Barak Obama.

Since medical science has not advanced to that point yet, we're down to a choice of two.

My short version of the complex answer is that "liberal" and "conservative" are not the only immutable paths through the maze of individuals or society. Instead, we're all a mix of liberal and conservative instincts, and our society is based on the checks and balances of left and right.

But there are also many areas in which people can hold contradictory opinions or impulses that combine their liberal and conservative sides.

For example, I'm probably on the right in terms of gun control. But on many other issues I'm firmly on the left side of the spectrum. I don't care enough about guns to base any vote on that. But if I did, I'd have to weigh whether my liberal instincts on other issues outweigh my libertarianism about guns.

Most people have to weigh these kinds of things constantly.

So it is quite possible that there may be socially conservative Republicans who are more liberal -- or at least moderate -- on economic issues like the minimum wage or trade.

[OzarkDem]

47. So you're saying you want GOP-like Dem candidates in the WH?

Most of us feel GOP policies are bankrupt and have done tremendous harm to our country. Are you saying you still support their policies and that's why you support Obama?

[Armstead]

60. That is totally the opposite of what I'm saying

If you ask for a reasoned discussion, the least you could do is not twist people's responses in a way guaranteed to have the opposite effect.

To be perfectly honest with you, I am opposed to Hillary Clinton BECAUSE I believe GOP policies are bankrupt, and The Clintons have been active suppoerters of the worst aspects of the GOP agenda.

They have been enthusiastic supporters of the same neo-liberal (ultra conservative) "free market" economics that are espoused by people such as Alan Greenspan et' al. "Just take away regulations that cripple markets, and the markets will bring a wonderful bounty to everyone."

The result has been a steady -- AND UNINTERRUPTED -- advance of the right-wing Corportist agenda since the late 1980's. Bill Clinton foisted the "free trade" agenda on us, rather than acknowledging that it was a giant CON game. Bill Clinton -- who promised when he ran to "call on the carpet" corporations that engaged in wasteful and destructive corporate mergers -- presided over a period in which huge corporate monoliths were created with nary a peep from the White House or the Democratic Party.

Still TODAY, Hillary Clinton studiously avoids any talk of real regulation, anti-trust measures or anything else that would actually empower the majority over the corporate elite. She merely proposes using a BB gun against them.

I concede that Obama is basically of the same mold as the Clintons in some respects. But at least he represents a chance to have a break from the status quo, and may be more accountable to the progressives who support him.

[OzarkDem]

62. We see Clinton's record differently

You'll have a hard time making a case that Bill Clinton was a GOP like candidate. Please give us some examples.

[Armstead]

79. One example is all Ive got time for now...

Democracy Now--

AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us. You worked with six presidents, with President Reagan, with both President Bushes. You worked with President Ford, and you worked with Bill Clinton, who you have called a Republican president; why?

ALAN GREENSPAN: That was supposed to be a quasi-joke.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about it.

ALAN GREENSPAN: Well, Clinton?

AMY GOODMAN: Yes.

ALAN GREENSPAN: Well, I stated that I’m a libertarian Republican, which means I believe in a series of issues, such as smaller government, constraint on budget deficits, free markets, globalization, and a whole series of other things, including welfare reform. And as you may remember, Bill Clinton was pretty much in the same—was doing much that same agenda. And so, I got to consider him as someone—as he described it, we were both an odd couple, because he is a centrist Democrat. And that’s not all that far from libertarian Republicanism.

AMY GOODMAN: About how much would you say you agreed with him?

ALAN GREENSPAN: On economic issues, I would say probably 80%.

--------------

[Armstead]

100. Another example

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D03EFDE1038F931A15756C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
With a Step Right, Senator Clinton Agitates the Left

By RAYMOND HERNANDEZ
Published: May 22, 2002

NY Times


Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is drawing fire from her traditional liberal allies as a result of the position she has staked out in the debate over revamping the nation's welfare laws.

Scores of protesters displayed their anger outside her house here in the Embassy Row neighborhood today, unhappy with her decision to back President Bush's drive to enact new work requirements that they say will ultimately harm welfare recipients.

''Senator Clinton needs to understand that the stakes in this debate are very high and that she will be held accountable for her actions,'' said Deepak Bhargava, the executive director of the National Campaign for Jobs and Income Support, a coalition of advocacy groups representing low-income communities.

Mrs. Clinton, the New York Democrat, has joined a group of moderate and conservative Democratic senators in supporting a bill to increase the work requirement for welfare recipients to 37 hours a week, a significant increase over the current 30 hours. Mr. Bush would require 40 hours.

In an interview this afternoon, Mrs. Clinton acknowledged that she had initially been reluctant to back the new work requirements. But she said she decided to support them after the bill's two main Senate sponsors, Evan Bayh of Indiana and Thomas R. Carper of Delaware, agreed to tie them to $8 billion in child care funding. Mrs. Clinton and her aides also noted that she had secured more money for Medicaid, immigrants' benefits, and education and training for welfare recipients. In addition, Mrs. Clinton noted that the Senate bill maintained limited exemptions from work requirements for mothers of children under 6.

A longer workweek, her critics argue, would force states to abandon existing job-training and placement programs in favor of unpaid workfare assignments for legions of welfare recipients. The advocates argue that in places like New York City, workfare has not helped substantial numbers of people move from government dependency into permanent jobs...


The other Democratic senators supporting the bill include John D. Rockefeller IV of West Virginia, Zell Miller of Georgia and John B. Breaux of Louisiana.

The situation Mrs. Clinton faces is reminiscent of the balancing act that her husband, Bill Clinton, struggled with in 1996, when the left wing pleaded with him to preserve the nation's welfare program while the right urged him to dismantle it. In the end, President Clinton upset his traditional liberal supporters by backing a measure that overhauled the program by, among other things, ending the federal guarantee of cash assistance for the poor.

Some critics also expressed doubt that Democrats would be able to get all the money they want in negotiations with House Republicans. And Bertha Lewis, the executive director of New York Acorn, an advocacy group for the poor, noted that even Orrin G. Hatch, the conservative Republican senator from Utah, had supported a bipartisan measure that would keep the work requirement at its current level of 30 hours a week.

''When you are right of Orrin Hatch, what is that about?'' she said. ''That's not good. She is right of Orrin Hatch. That's where our consternation comes in.''

[krkaufman]

147. Ha!! I love how you received no response to this.

Well done.

[kurth]

27. The Unity Mind Fuck

[ProSense]

35. Here:

strange bedfellows

[OzarkDem]

42. Sorry, this thread is about Obama

Not another story of endless attacks on Clinton by the right wing media. Those are pretty old hat and boring.

Let's talk about Obama, his supporters and their strange bedfellows at the GOP.

[ProSense]

57. She befriended the RW media and wingnut bloggers. Obama didn't. n/t

[OzarkDem]

61. Is that why they're supporting Obama?

Face facts, the right wing likes Obama and that should make you uncomfortable. What is he telling them that he isn't telling you?

[ProSense]

69. I don't care if they like him! Hillary is the one who cozied up to them. n/t

[Kokonoe]

43. I see a coalition of the far right of the republicans and the

far right of the (left)democrats. Bill and George have had a lock on control of government and it has worked out well for them.
Most people are disgusted with American style politics and Obama brings together all those no matter who we are.

[OzarkDem]

55. Bill Clinton has had control of our government?

Not since he left office, dear. Some of this stuff is starting to sound tin-foil hat.

[rodeodance]

132. Did her tell Bill he had controll of the gov?? WHOW-you JUMPED THE SHARK ON THAT ONE

Bill and George have had a lock on control of government and it has worked out well for them.

[rodeodance]

50. I will give you a REC--good question

[MethuenProgressive]

63. Obama knew what he was doing when he got in bed with the Hate Wing of his Church.

Pandering to homophobic bigotry pays dividends financially.

[OzarkDem]

66. He has a record of supporting conservatives

I'm also very uncomfortable with his ongoing GOP style talk of "family values" and promoting religion through government. Very inappropriate, very unnecessary to win an election.

The homophobia issue and the tendency to tell women they need to know their place also reflect a right wing POV. Weird guy.

[MethuenProgressive]

74. Obama's long record of pandering to antigay, anti-female bigotry is popular with his DU sheep.

Especially the Pro one.

[ProSense]

71. "Pandering to homophobic bigotry pays dividends financially." Is that the same as paying them off

Hillary's Donnie McClurkins

One week after the gay blogosphere went ballistic over Barack Obama's ties to an "ex-gay" gospel minister, the Washington Blade has an interesting story about two prominent anti-gay black ministers who Hillary Clinton has embraced as supporters.

(Clinton supporters) said they’re generally unconcerned that anti-gay ministers Bishop Eddie Long and Rev. Harold Mayberry are supporting the campaign.

Long’s New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in suburban Atlanta once marched against gay marriage and hosts an “ex-gay” ministry. Mayberry has preached against homosexuality to his First African Methodist Episcopal Church in Oakland, Calif.

In interviews this week, Wilson and others said they were not concerned that Clinton had accepted a $1,000 donation from Long or that she recently thanked Mayberry for “fighting for civil rights and equality,” because she has not allowed either minister to speak for the campaign.

The Clinton backers tried to draw a distinction between Clinton accepting support from Long and Mayberry and Obama "handing a microphone" to "ex-gay" singer Donnie McClurkin. Actually it was the Obama campaign that picked McClurkin and the candidate chose not to disinvite him, but whatever.

Unlike McClurkin, Long is an anti-gay leader, make no mistake, gathering thousands to march in support of Georgia's anti-marriage amendment. Likewise, Mayberry said of gays, "I'm comfortable in what I believe in. I'm not rejecting people. As God loves, we love. I don't reject thieves, I reject thievery."

Another blogger, MyDD, has highlighted Clinton's ties to yet another anti-gay black minister, who has a $10,000 "consulting contract" with the Clinton campaign and spoke out in favor of the state's anti-marriage amendment.

more

[krkaufman]

148. Ha! Yet another post with facts that receives no response from the HC spammasters. n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

129. Egad.

:dem:

[westerebus]

70. Race.

The right wing wants a black man at the head of the democratic party.Why? They believe it will bring moderates and independents back to the right wing. They are not expecting conversion, just a little nod in their direction come election time. How do they get one? They promote the idea they are independents looking for change and cross over to vote in the primaries for the candidate of their choice. So far, no blood, no foul. It has no cost to them and supports the claims of broad based appeal repeated by the media.
Come election time, the lever gets pulled for the old white guy. They hate HRC as much as they hate Bill. So that vote is not worth counting. They actually prefer HRC because they think Dems will not vote for her in big enough numbers. They are counting on race as the deciding factor in the election.
Then two possibilities exist. One he losses, they win. Two, he wins and the next sound you hear will be a very loud explosion in a major american city or hostages are taken or some crisis appears. They did it to Kennedy. They did it to Carter. They did it Clinton.
You will never hear them bash Regan even though he cut out of Beirut. Nixon ended the war in Viet Nam. Daddy Bush beat Saddam's ass. Junior killed him. These are their heroes. Do the math.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

72. I'm sorry, this was too ridiculous, conservative republicans do not want any dem elected

some republican lites or republican leaning independants may be voting for a dem., but no real conservative is going to ovte for a dem in an election that's just ludicrous.

Are you telling me that right to lifers and christian evangelists are voting for Obama? Is Obama winnning the conservative vote, no!

[westerebus]

86. Yes.

These are primaries. They can and do vote in primaries. They are more that glad to help pick who their party will run against.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

73. I'm afraid I'm going to have to put you back on ignore OzarkaDem

generally I like you, but this is just propaganda, and you know it. You only debase yourself with this behavior. Until you calm down and begin to offer Real dialogue once again on this primary or election, I'm going to have to ignore your propaganda.

[yourout]

78. Same here.

It's one thing to back your candidate it's another to ignore reality.

[AZBlue]

92. Me three.

This type of BS saddens me.

[Hepburn]

125. Add another DITTO on putting Ozark on IGNORE

This poster is full of nonsense...and no matter who points out the facts, it matters not.

JMHO...<click>

[GOPBasher]

75. That's idiotic. He has very specific proposals; platform very close to Hillary's.

Obama's actual platform is very close to Hillary's. The only major difference is that Obama gives us a much better chance of winning the general.

[Blue-Jay]

76. Strange bedfellows: DU Dems and Conservative DLC

See? Posting stupid shit is easy!

[OzarkDem]

81. You still haven't answered the question

this is a thread about Obama.

[Blue-Jay]

84. The question is based on a false premise, but I'll address it anyway.

Name me some of these "conservative GOP" members who are actively supporting Obama. I realize that many independent voters are leaning towards Obama, and also quite a few folks who may have previously voted for republicans. That's supposed to be a Good Thing, right? I've yet to see anyone who would identify themselves as "conservative GOP" to voice pro-Obama support.

Who are these conservative GOP members of which you speak? Any names that I'd recognize?

[westerebus]

99. David Brooks.

New York Times. While he has not left the right wing and leans moderate compared to some in the Repug party; he is fairly consistent in his praise for Obama. I watch PBS and read the Times, while there is a sympathetic response in defense of HRC; the right wingers, few they may be in this context, have not gassed up their war machine when it comes to Obama. Most are very happy to see HRC loose.

[Blue-Jay]

111. OK, but let's not confuse "praise" with "support".

I've not been able to find any evidence that Brooks is advocating an Obama presidency. Hell, I heard Limbaugh (with my own ears, ick!) say that Obama seems to be a "nice guy", but that doesn't mean that he's in favor of Obama winning the primary OR the general elections.

[westerebus]

128. Free advertisement

is a form of support. No swift-boating, no sniping, not even the usual repug whining. And when the pond scum makes nice to the opposition, you can bet they are up to something. They surely want to win and will stack the deck to do it. Hell, there are enough folks here willing to shed some blood for their choice. The opposition is expected to do less? No they're up to no good. And race has a lot to do with it.

[NJmaverick]

91. YEAH!= When did you stop beating your wife?!?!?

This "question" is exactly the sort of unethical and dishonest political attack that Karl Rove perfected and Hillary and her supporters have adopted.

[krkaufman]

149. No, it's a thread about rubbing fecal matter on oneself to gain notice.

If DU had a commitment mechanism, I'd be hitting the button for ya.

[Straight Shooter]

83. Yes, but K. Sebelius has endorsed Barack, and she is DLC.

obama supporters on DU have enthusiastically proffered her name as a Veep, with absolutely no indication that they're aware of the inherent irony of such a match.

Tom Daschle has the power of the DLC behind him, as well, and he's using his connections for obama. If I had time I'd check the DLC members and research who else from that organization supports him.

Barack and the DLC are cozily holding hands and hoping no one notices their relationship. It really doesn't matter if they're actually caught in bed together, they've got a thing going on.

[Blue-Jay]

89. I was being intentionally ridiculous.

But I will say that I'm not a fan of Sebelius in any way.

[Straight Shooter]

110. You may have been intentionally ridiculous, but the others who promote her are sincere. n/t

[krkaufman]

150. Ok, can we agree that we should not nominate a DLC candidate ...

... or allow a DLC poltician on the ticket?

See, common ground is easy to find. Welcome to prObamaland.

[NJmaverick]

77. NO the oddest thing is how Hillary and her supporters are behaving

like conservative Republicans. They are employing all the unethical tactics we all were complaing about for well over 8 years.

[OzarkDem]

80. Let's talk Obama

Frankly I don't see how anything Hillary is doing could make Obama Dems and GOP conservatives jump into bed together.

[theHandpuppet]

85. And I for one see that as a good thing!

Remember this old fable?

The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."

To those of you who think it's a good thing for Obama to let the conservative GOPers hitch a ride on the back of his campaign, don't be surprised when they turn around and stab you right in the back.

Great question in your OP, OzarkDem. Thanks for this thread.

:thumbsup:

[Straight Shooter]

87. "The Crying Game."

:thumbsup:

[NJmaverick]

90. Hillary tried that

Got her a few votes, but then she went back to her cold calculating nasty Rove approved tactics.

[Straight Shooter]

96. Elmer Gantry.

obama still stuck in that mode.

[NJmaverick]

105. Another nasty and dishonest Rovian attack

You realize with every single one, you are hurting your candidate? Don't you?

[Straight Shooter]

113. "Got her a few votes, but then she went back to her cold calculating nasty Rove approved tactics."

Project much?

[NJmaverick]

116. Why does talking to you, remind me of my years of battles

with right wing nut cases. You sound EXACTLY like them and you BEHAVE exactly like them. It's scary.

[krkaufman]

151. The Right does not have a monopoly on idealogues or fanatics.

And, contrary to the spewings of many DUers, our fledgling 25%ers appear to be germinating in the Clinton camp.

[NJmaverick]

88. That's because all you care about is POWER, not what's right

Obama hasn't changed his positions to match the conservative Republicans, as this Rovianly dishonest thread suggest. The reality is Obama is a great man that is capable of UNITING this country's people, no matter their views. What Hillary has shown is she will be more of the Rovian diry and dishonest politics that we at DU faught so hard against.

[OzarkDem]

94. Prove it

Obama supporters need to take a real close look at his policy positions and make an honest assesment about who they really support.

[NJmaverick]

97. As the NYTs said, their policies and postions are nearly identical

So it comes down to character, honesty and leadership. In those three areas Obama wins hands down.

[OzarkDem]

98. Oops, sorry I don't take the NYT's word for it I've read them myself

Took a long time, but I got through it. Its an important issue to me.

Yes there are very big differences. Paul Krugman agrees.

[NJmaverick]

104. Talk is cheap- what are these major difference??????

I seriously doubt you could even list 3.

[OzarkDem]

107. OMG, I've Got Blisters On My Fingers!

From typing these points and listing links for so long. Hang tight and I'll pull up the old posts out of the archives.

Some links

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4617550&mesg_id=4617550

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4612061#4612161

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[NJmaverick]

114. Why am I not surprised you couldn't name 3?

Doesn't being dishonest bother you in any way?

[OzarkDem]

117. Here ya go

Health policy is hard to explain fairly to people w/o experience. It can't be answered in sound bites. So I'm tired of typing these same policy statements. You're right, I should save them somewhere and just keep reposting them.

1 It doesn't cover everyone. It forces people who pay for insurance and the health care system to pay for the cost of people who don't buy insurance when they get sick or injured. Its the same problem we have right now with the health care system. Its on the edge of collapse because of the high cost of uncompensated care. Obama's plan will continue that and make it worse in many ways.

2 It provides federal funds to private health insurance companies to subsidize premiums, yet puts no cap on premium inccreases (yes, Clinton's does have caps indexed to an individual's income. Premiums can't rise any higher than a certain percentage of income or the insurance provider will have to forfeit the federal assistance the consumer gets to buy insurance).

3 Obama's plan will tax individuals employer provided health insurance as income. Clinton's does not.


The biggest problem is the first. Obama's program will cause health care costs, premiums and federal subsidies to skyrocket quickly w/ cost of uncompensated care. It will kill any effort to reform health care for years to come, no doubt something the conservative think tanks who designed it had in mind.

[NJmaverick]

120. That's one MINOR difference, where are the other 2 (I'll be generous)

I'll give you the minor differences on healthcare plans. So where are the other two MAJOR differences????

[OzarkDem]

133. All three are major differences

They will cause the plan to fail and raise the cost of health care for those who can't afford it.

Those may seem like minor issues to you, but they are very important to most other people.

[NJmaverick]

135. They are three differences of ONE policy

Like I said, you have proven yourselves wrong. You could only list ONE MINOR diffence. That being the case it's time to consider things like character, leadership and the ability to inspire.

[krkaufman]

152. ha!!! "sorry I don't take the NYT's word for it ... blah blah blah... Paul Krugman agrees."

Just too precious.

:rofl:

[NJmaverick]

93. She is not doing anything that would

Obama is such a great man and leader that the GOP conservatives are FOLLOWING his leadership. You'll need to forgive me if I don't you your disingenuous term "jump into bed together"

[AX10]

108. The GOP want someone who is weak.

Obama can rile up a crowd and that is all. He wants to play nice with his opponents. The GOP knows they can steamroll him should he get by and make it into the Whitehouse.

[NJmaverick]

115. OMG! I can't believe you posted this

You actually knock a man for being great, honest and ethical? What sort of sick idea is that?

[DemGa]

101. Thank you for this insight

It's very good to know people are seeing through the Obama facade.

And this alignment with the far-right by ObamaNation IS the message that the Hillary campaign needs to drive home.

[RBInMaine]

102. You are WAY off base.

SOME moderate R's are crossing over to Obama which is a GOOD thing for the general election. They are disaffected Republicans looking for an alternative, but would NEVER go with Hillary. They hate her. Also, Obama is drawing FAR more INDEPENDENTS than is Hillary which also makes him a much stronger candidate in the general election. MOST R's WANT Hillary because they know that would unite their party. Please get real.

[OzarkDem]

103. Turn on the tv and radio

check it out.

[MadBadger]

112. Like Ann Coulter?

[I Vote In Pittsburgh]

122. Go away

you are a disgrace to the democratic party. Just because some republicans support Obama, does not mean that all democratic Obama supports are suddenly and magically in bed with Rush Limbaugh/Robert Novak.

[cooolandrew]

123. No, I feel more that we have to gain their voters support to have healthy mandate and start repair.

[cloudythescribbler]

126. These folk have expressed their DISsatisfaction w/ OTHER candidates, but are hardly allied w/Obama

[blm]

127. What a BOGUS argument that you DIDN'T make when BOTH CLINTONS sided with BushInc

very publicly in 2004.

You also didn't mind when YOU and Clinton loyalists claim it is ALRIGHT that Bill protected BushInc throughout the 90s.

YOU Clinton loyalists helped bring back BushInc and want to continue the protection of BushInc by installing another Clinton layer of protection for them.

[tom_paine]

130. SHHHHHHHHHH! This topic is taboo!

Nothing to see here. Move along, you moonbat!

[jackson_dem]

134. Obama will end the two party system when both parties find common ground

The rethugs will disband. All we need to do is chat with them and find common ground. It isn't as if we have fundamental difference as to the role of government and the direction the country should take. Obama will bridge the old two party divide* that has existing ever Jefferson and Hamilton clashed.

*The Federalists died but were quickly replaced by the Whigs, who in turn were quickly replaced by the rethugs after their demise. There is a reason why the two party system has been so resilient but the "hope" crowd refuses to confront this fundamental American truth.

[krkaufman]

137. Where the hell are you getting your information? Who says Obama supporters ....

... are in complete agreement with the d-bags you cite, or even in partial agreement with Conservative Republicans?

Trying to convince Independents and moderate Republicans to consider joining with Democrats to build a working majority to get the country on a new and DIFFERENT track from the conservative track begun by Ronald Reagan -- and continued by all the Presidents since -- is exactly what the Democratic Party needs to do if we are to return to power, beyond the unworkable thin majority we currently have.

[Triana]

146. "telling people what they want to hear yet standing for nothing."

That says it all.

[Windex]

155. The Blind Men and the Elephant

What is there not to like about Obama? He's a good man with a beautiful family and he is reaching out to all. It's not so much us against them as if half of America is out to destroy the other half.
So all of us who want "Change" like what we see but he reminds me of the fable about

The Blind Men and The Elephant by John Godfrey Saxe

It was six men of Indostan To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant, And happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl: "God bless me! but the Elephant Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, "Ho! what have we here So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear This wonder of an Elephant Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal, And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake: "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand, And felt about the knee. "What most this wondrous beast is like Is mighty plain," quoth he; " 'Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said:"E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can This marvel of an Elephant Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun About the beast to grope, Than, seizing on the swinging tail That fell within his scope, "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong!

Moral:

So oft in theologic wars, The disputants, I ween, Rail on in utter ignorance Of what each other mean, And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen!

[Algorem]

161. Ohio treasurer Cordray (D?) endorses Obama

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/02/_ohio_treasurer_richard_cordra.html
Posted by Mark Naymik February 18, 2008 07:46AM


Ohio Treasurer Richard Cordray, among the most apolitical(?) statewide officials, just jumped into a messy political play.

He is the first statewide elected officials to endorse Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton in the battle for the Democratic presidential nomination.

"I believe in Senator Obama's inspirational message and his effort to create a politics that will bring people together," he said. " That is the kind of leadership we are working to provide in Ohio, and it is badly needed to change the federal government in Washington."



September 15, 2006

Cordray announces Republican support

http://theohiodemocraticparty.typepad.com/my_weblog/statewide_campaigns/index.html

Via a press release sure to give the desperate folks over at the ORP heartburn, Richard Cordray, Franklin County Treasurer and candidate for State Treasurer, announced he has received strong Republican support in his bid for higher office.

A steering committee of Andy Douglas, Dana "Buck" Reinhart, and Joan W. Lawrence have agreed to lend their backing to Cordray as he works to add a growing list of Republican supporters throughout the state.

Douglas is a former State Supreme Court Justice, Reinhart served two terms as Mayor of Columbus, and Lawrence served eight years as a State Representative until leaving to direct the Ohio Department of Aging from 1999-2005.



Any GOPranksters about?

http://www.cleveland.com/editorials/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/120332707050490.xml&coll=2

With the GOP nomination for president all but wrapped up for Sen. John McCain, but a barn-burner of a contest still raging on the Democratic side, some Ohio Republicans may be tempted to vote in the primary where they can do the most damage.

That would mean a lot of Republicans crossing over to vote for (or against) Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. It might also mean some of the most serious, most conservative Republicans wearing the Democratic label until the next primary election, when they could cross back over and come "home."

With just a little exaggeration (which is what this space is for), here's how it could play out March 4 in Ohio:

Moderate Republicans break big-time for Obama, reasoning that he's a personable guy who doesn't seem to be angry with anyone and talks a lot about nice things like hope and unity. And he's not Hillary...


IF YOU CAN'T BEAT HIM ...

http://www.freetimes.com/stories/15/41/not-the-boss-of-us

When Georgia Thomas Parks, a black Republican since the 1980s, returning to Ohio from Colorado recently, the bus ride took her through Iowa, where she couldn't believe the number of Obama for President signs she saw.

"By the time I got home , I said to myself, I'm going to vote for Obama and try to get other people to support him," Parks says. She started calling her friends, and nine others came together to hold an organizing meeting on Feb. 1. Last week, Republicans for Obama filed its non-profit papers. There are 15 members to date...


A recent study by the Pew Research Center showed Democrats viewing Obama as more liberal than Hillary Clinton, while Republicans saw him as more moderate. There is a netroots movement called "Republicans for Obama." Founder John Martin, now on active duty in Afghanistan as a US Navy reservist, has said the online group has about 400 members.

A search on Google has yet to reveal a "Republicans for Hillary Clinton."