I didn't get my wish, so now i am faced with my choice.

[Ninga]

I am re-thinking my choice on March 4th.

It wasn't anything Clinton or Obama said or didn't say last night that has made me re-think my vote.

It was what my husband said. He said, what do you want sitting in the WH, at this time in history. A manager or a leader?

I am trying to keep this simple, so I read on Wikipedia about leadership. Thousand and thousand of words are written to describe every possible way leadership can be defined.

I offer the following for those who are looking for "food for thought". In all of the noise of who said what to who, he said she said, the end of the day still requires a decision based on the unknown. Because for as much as we think we know, there is much more we do not. So I hope my post will stimulate in a positive way, some thoughtful reflection.


Management involves power by position.

Leadership invovles power by influence.

[paperbag_ princess]

1. it is not that black and white

You need both skills...and they both have them.

[northernsoul]

4. How well has HRC managed/led her primary campaign?

IMHO, she's done an extremely poor job as the chief executive of her primary campaign.

[paperbag_ princess]

25. I have seen better run campaigns

She was caught unprepared...no doubt. I just don't buy that she has gotten to where she is without being a successful leader and manager.

[MrCoffee]

2. I had the exact same dilemma you have...

I have the same level of confidence in Hillary Clinton as I do in Barack Obama. They'd both be "ok" in the White House. But since we clearly won't have "great" in the White House, the primary (well, caucus here in WA) didn't matter so much to me, personally.

I'll vote for the nominee in November. That's about it. I hope you can choose a candidate you truly believe in.

[PassingFair]

3. OK, just remember that Feingold, Leahy and Dodd are backing...

Mr. Obama.

Leaders are made, they are not born.

:)

[Ninga]

8. Interesting thought. If a quality of leadership is to influence, weren't Feingold, Leahy and

Dodd influenced? And in order for a leader to be made, what measures do Feingold, Leahy and Dodd use in their making?

[Fresh_Start]

5. Bush was a leader.

He set a course and led by influencing those willing to be influenced in his direction.

He did not follow the people's will.
He did not manage.

[Renew Deal]

7. He was the complete opposite of a leader.

Bush is all about good old boys, politics by committee. He's never had an original thought in his life.

[democrattotheend]

9. But wouldn't we like a president on our side who can do that?

I hate Bush as much as the rest of you, but I don't think you can argue with the fact that he has been successful at getting a lot of his agenda passed, especially in his first term. He managed to get a lot of his priorities through Congress even with a narrow majority.

Would it be so bad to have a president on our side who could do that? And wouldn't it be even better if we had a president who could use his oratory skills and other leadership assets to help build a consensus for our agenda?

[Fresh_Start]

22. Actually no....we don't want a President charting his own way

or at least I don't

I want someone who is responsive to the people....
Even if the people are wrong, I'd rather we follow the people rather than the whims of any leader.

The problem with the people is that the media have been controlled by corporate interests which are not aligned with the people's interests. I believe if we had a well-educated and well-informed people, the people's will would be better than the will of any leader

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Bush is a figurehead. it is BushCo that rules, not Bush.

He's more the "chairman of the board" than the CEO.

[Ninga]

11. Outstanding point! His ability to influence was only trotted out at election time. But because

his style of leadership was not challenged by another style of leadership, but management, he was able to win again in 2004.

[Yael]

17. Bush was not a leader. He was a puppet for some very strong willed people.

[Ninga]

20. As a puppet, he was sent out to influence. And he did. However, when voters looked for a leader

in 2004, all they found was a manager, and instead were influenced, once again by Bush.

[CoffeeCat]

18. Hitler was a leader too...

There are good leaders and bad leaders, obviously. Many people possess leadership skills,
but lack basic human decency.

I remember listening to a personal-development coach talk about leadership. He pointed out
that Hitler was a great leader, in the sense that he perfected every great hallmark of a
leader--except he lacked one hallmark---the ability to care about others and empathize.

That seminar was 20 years ago, and I will NEVER forget that. People with great skills---who
are sociopaths and lack the ability to empathize--are society's greatest monsters.

You have to ask yourself--about any leader---does this person TRULY care about THE PEOPLE?
DO they really care about the people that they lead and the people who will be impacted
by their causes?

[Fresh_Start]

23. we have had many many lessons on the ability of power to corrupt

and the ability of politics to corrupt..

Looking only on this one website....we see numerous examples of people being perverted by politics....when they are not even themselves politicians.

I want someone who administers the peoples will.
I want Congress to legislate the peoples will.

I don't want a leader setting the agenda for the people.
I want Congress setting the agenda for the people.

[CanonRay]

6. A great leader can possibly be a great manager...

but it is unlikely that a great manager will also be a great leader. Totally different skills. One can be leared,the other is inate. You have it or you don't.

[Ninga]

Now this debate is cooking! Great point and well said.

[Ninga]

13. n/t

[CTyankee]

12. A wise leader can FIND and recruit a great manager.

It is what wise leaders do...

[Ninga]

14. "power by influence" find the manager's and policy wonks to advance the change, while you as the

leader, influence the masses to support the change.

[Labors of Hercules]

15. Interesting what you say here.

It is precisely this that influenced me to back Obama over Clinton. That he shows overt leadership in influencing others while managing an impressive Senate office and even more impressive Presidential Campaign.

I back Obama because I think he is going about this campaign the right way, and he is a highly capable natural leader even if he is younger and less "experienced".

[Yael]

16. That is a very crisp distinction

Good managers are able to get their people to do what they want them to do.

Good leaders have people who want to do.

Some good managers are good leaders, but the two are exclusive traits.

[Ninga]

19. Being able to crystallize down to a basic quality was important to me. Being able to

view the entire process, as it has unfolded, certain qualities have strengthened and others have wained.

Isn't running a major effort like a presidential campaign reflective of the leadership qualities a candidate has?

[Ninga]

21. Perhaps this thread hasn't lead to an earth shattering conclusion, but it HAS restored my

faith in reasoned and well thought-out debate.

I just marvel at the fast food quick to judge slam duck flying in the dead of night posts that are empty of substance, and quick on negativity.


Thanks to all who bothered to take the time to think and craft a response in english, using logic and thought.

[writes3000]

24. And thank you for your insightful post here.

It gives us all something to think about.

[Coexist]

26. ....

Management involves power by position. - fear is a great motivator, but those afraid may turn on you.

Leadership invovles power by influence. - to motivate people to work for you because they want to, not in exchange for favors or influence, will be the more permanent. However, the mob can also turn against you, if you prove to be a false leader.

In a pinch, a great leader reacts quickly, delegates authority and works to get things done, people moving and motivated to pitch in where ever they may be needed. A great leader is more likely to be hindered by worries of whose toes they may be stepping on, and who may desert them because of a political slight, or threat to withhold favors in the future.

I think I would prefer a Leader.

[FlyingSquirrel]

27. Hopemonger.

:P just kiddin!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Are you going to want somebody who goes on ad nauseum about semantics?

Or are you going to want someone who doesn't have time for silliness?

[Johnny__Motown]

29. Bingo, excellent post. K&R