"He sat in the pew for 20 years, he baptized his kids...."

[noel711]

If I hear that RW meme one more time I shall scream.

Especially from progressives who should know better. Life is NOT that simplistic.

I've been on the other side of a pulpit for 22 years.I know folks who are simply 'pew sitters,' and those who really listen, those who know their scripture, those who live the gospel.Folks who are part of a faith community know that being a pastor is a more complicated role than preaching one sermon.

Take it from one who knows: you do NOT preach the same sermon every week, NOR does a preacher preach controversial sermons every week. It simply can't be done, it shouldn't be done. The Sunday after 9-11, I WAS on fire. I didn't come out and say "God damn America," but I did say we, as a nation needed to confess our sins of imperialism. The Sunday after the Congress approved the War vote, I WAS furious! There were some folks (republicans) who didn't like it, they told me, I thanked them for their opinion, and we moved on. The issue died down because I had other sermons to preach, other things to do. When there were children to be baptized, no one said: "Do not baptize my children because I disagree with your anti-war sermons." People said: "I want my children to be part of this faith community, and you, as pastor, will do it." People who are part of a community of faith know there are times they disagree with the pastor, but none of us are a 'one trick pony.'

Barack Obama admitted (and this was affirmed by the now infamous Rev. Wright) that he was NOT present every Sunday, and he did NOT hear inflammatory language from the pulpit. I believe him. Most pastors would love it if their congregants remembered their sermons... I am sure there are congregants in many congregations who disagree with their pastor's views or preaching, but don't/can't/won't walk out because of a sermon or a statement that may be controversial.

Most congregations are not built around the personality of the pastor. There are many parishes who elect their pastor, but there are also many who get the pastor that the bishop appoints. The people do not belong to the pastor, but belong to a community of faith that will continue when the pastor leaves.

To continue to blame Obama because he 'sat in the pew' is just wrong, and reveals a lack of understanding of the complexity of belonging to a community of faith. "Lack of judgment" ?? I could go into chapter and verse of other candidates whose lack of judgment in many decisions is being overlooked by a MSM that has its own agenda.

I'd rather have a candidate who may have given a pastor the benefit of the doubt than a candidate whose decisions have cost us many American lives in a war that doubtless will continue for years to come.

[livetohike]

1. Thank you for this......

:hi:

[rateyes]

2. Thank you.

I know what you are talking about.

[MADem]

3. Those are facts. Not "rightwing memes." He DID do that.

And he KNEW Wright was trouble, which was why he "disinvited" him from his candidacy declaration, and already had a replacement lined up BEFORE he even TOLD Wright. When Wright offered to call Otis Moss and line him up for Obama, Wright was told that it had already been done.

What Obama didn't count on was Wright getting PISSED OFF. He thought his former pastor would turn the other cheek. Instead, his former pastor said "Kiss my ass."

And that's judgment, right there. He sure couldn't "read" the guy he knew for twenty years, could he?

[noel711]

6. MADDY, didn't you read my OP?

"REad" the guy?

Did Wright tell you he had Rev. Moss lined up? I don't remember hearing that. But it's Obama's perfect right to 'line up' any replacement for any announcment, just as I've had folks 'line up' another pastor to do the prayer at a wedding, or whatever. I don't get 'pissed off' at them.
And I didn't 'read' Wright as angry with Obama at all..

You got only a brief glimpse of Wright.. the glimpse from those
snippets of the videos, the glimpse of a self-righteous man attempting
to save face. What you saw was NOT what served Trinity church for all those years.... to think otherwise is too simplistic.If Wright truly was an angry egotistical pastor, how in the world did he build Trinity church from 80 people to 8,000 in 20 years? Not thru ego and anger.

Wright was angry with the MSM, just like we get angry with the MSM.

'REad' the guy? Do you vet all of your pastors/doctors/lawyers etc?
Do you 'read' them all before you associate with them? Obama is not the kind of person to make snap judgment, but rather he gives folks the benefit of the doubt... I suppose in this political climate we expect our candidates to fire first, and think later..

[MADem]

31. No, Wright OFFERED TO CALL Moss.

Obama had already ASKED Moss, who (apparently after the fact, perhaps after Wright called Moss) turned him down. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/us/politics/01wright.html?ref=us

Mr. Obama then asked whether the Rev. Otis Moss III, who would soon succeed Mr. Wright at Trinity, could speak instead. Mr. Wright agreed, even offering to call the younger preacher. (These quotes are drawn from a year-old interview with Mr. Wright; he shared some of his cellphone messages with a reporter).

“Actually, we’ve already called him,” Mr. Obama told him.

A few minutes later, Mr. Wright got his daughters on the telephone line. “I’m only going to say this once,” he said. “Don’t look at TV tomorrow.”



NYT 1 APR http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

After all, back in January, Mr. Obama had asked Mr. Wright if he would begin the event by delivering a public invocation.

But Mr. Wright said Mr. Obama called him the night before the Feb. 10 announcement and rescinded the invitation to give the invocation.

“Fifteen minutes before Shabbos I get a call from Barack,” Mr. Wright said in an interview on Monday, recalling that he was at an interfaith conference at the time. “One of his members had talked him into uninviting me,” Mr. Wright said, referring to Mr. Obama’s campaign advisers.....Instead, Mr. Obama asked Mr. Wright’s successor as pastor at Trinity, the Rev. Otis Moss III, to speak. Mr. Moss declined.




From back in March: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/03/throughout-his.html
But more than a year ago -- long before some of Wright’s more incendiary sermons became hot-button videos on YouTube, forcing Obama to publicly renounce his pastor last week -- the Obama campaign had a sense that Wright's sharp tongue might spell trouble for the Illinois senator. (For a sermon sample, click on the Read more line below.)

That was the word anyway Sunday from Obama’s chief strategist, David Axelrod, who acknowledged during a conference call with reporters that Wright was disinvited ...

from Obama's official candidacy announcement on Feb. 10, 2007, in the shadow of the Old State Capitol in Springfield, Ill.

Wright had been expected to lead an invocation of some kind, but never appeared.

“There was no doubt that there was controversy surrounding him,” Axelrod said Sunday. “And we didn’t want to expose him … make him the target and a distraction on a day when Sen. Obama was going to announce his candidacy.”

So if the savvy Obama campaign knew Wright was a problem a year ago, why did the Illinois senator, a parish member for two decades, wait until last week to disassociate and denounce the minister's inflammatory statements?

The topic is clearly uncomfortable for Obama and his aides, personally and politically. Axelrod's comments came only after prodding from a reporter and after he had initially suggested that Wright’s absence that day was due merely to the fact that the temperature was in the single digits.


If I were running for major office, I'd sure as hell inoculate myself against a loose cannon like Wright....like say, moving far enough away to have an excuse to switch churches. But then, I can't imagine that someone who donated THAT MUCH money to that church had no damn CLUE about what the guy was preaching. If he didn't, he's STUPID. If he did, he's being disingenous with the American people now.

Snap judgment? Twenty years is more than enough time to figure that shit out. Sorry. Wright is "news" because Wright's theology and message are so very antithetical to what Obama is pushing. It makes Obama's schtick just not believable. That's the problem here, some major cognitive dissonance.

[noel711]

40. Where'd you find all that stuff? Incredible..

It reveals a lot of the 'vetting' of politicians..

but about giving money to the church,
he wasn't giving money to WRight...

Heck, if I got all the cash that folks gave to
my church, I've be living on 'happy street.'

Offerings go into a general fund, and go to pay
bills (utilities) and educational expenses,
monies go to ministries, outreach to help the hungry
and homeless, and yes, salaries for pastors, musicians,
teachers, social workers, janitors, etc.

NOT to the pastor.

And as to the '20 years' expression.. how many years did
it take for the people in the pews and in the nation to learn
of the priests' child abuse? Too many years, and even now
many folks won't believe it.

[MADem]

47. New York Times, New Yorker...Chicago Tribune...most papers covered this stuff.

Look, you can continue to "justify" all you want. I really don't care about all of Wright's "good works."

He may not have been giving the money TO Wright, but how do you think Wright got a ten thousand square foot house from the church to retire in? From Jesus in the Sky? Those contributions paid Wright's salary, they pay his PENSION, and they paid for his house.

Here's how anyone who isn't swooning looks at Obama's association with TUCC: Eight to ten THOUSAND votes. And a huge campaign organization, fired up and ready to go. It's how he launched his political career.

His mistake was he STAYED TOO LONG. He should have moved on out of there four or more years ago.

And as for the RC priests, they weren't fucking those little altar boys ON the altar, in public, for the entire parish to see. And everyone believes it happened--even the diehards, who saw their parish churches sold off to PAY the lawsuits. Didn't you notice that the POPE met with abuse victims, and APOLOGIZED?

Wright was making his comments in front of the entire congregation. Gleefully. And SELLING them on DVD in the GIFT SHOP! And broadcasting the sermons on the internet. This wasn't a "dreadful little secret." This was OUT THERE.

It's just NOT the same. And even if we suspended reality, and pretended it were--since when do two wrongs make a right?

[noel711]

51. Two wrongs don't make a Wright? Sorry, couldn't resist..

In regard to the priests, how long did it take for the Church to wake up?

And in regard to Wright's preaching... gleefully in front of the
congregation? I still think that's painting with a broadbrush..
Did he broadcast the sermons on the internet, or did Fox?

Your boldness in asserting his 'evil'preaching makes me wonder if you were there... Did you see it and hear it every Sunday?

And if the 'truth' was 'out there' why did it take Fox, and then the rest of the mainstream media to be the purveyors of that 'truth'?
Wouldn't other community minded folk do that for us all?

There's a commentator on MSNBC, Tamron Hall I believe her name is, and she belonged to Trinity Church fo 10 years before she moved to New York.She mentioned on the air that she never heard his hateful sermons on a Sunday morning... just sayin'.

[noel711]

52. Oh, one more thing...

Yes, the church paid Wright's salary, and his pension,
as does my church. It's part of the salary package.

If he can afford a delux home in the Chicago suburbs,
hey, go for it....

[MADem]

66. NO. It's not "he can afford"--the church BUILT the house FOR him.

And the way that land deal was worked looks pretty FISHY to me, too.

He got a sweet retirement package.

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/trinity.wright.home.2.687577.html

Trinity U.C.C. Builds Rev. Wright $1M Home
TINLEY PARK, Ill. (AP) ― Sen. Barack Obama's Chicago church is buying a $1 million home for its controversial retired pastor who has become a central figure in the Democratic presidential race, records show.

The 10,000-square-foot home in the southern Chicago suburb of Tinley Park features four bedrooms, an elevator, an exercise room and a four-car garage, according to building plans reviewed by the (Tinley Park) SouthtownStar.

Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who retired from Trinity United Church of Christ last month, purchased the land in 2004 for $345,000, according to property records reviewed by The Associated Press and the Chicago Tribune.

He sold the land to the church two years later, which took out a $1.6 million mortgage on the property and is now listed as the land owner.

Trinity received a building permit last April for the brick-and-stone home, which abuts Odyssey Country Club and golf course, according to the Tribune.

Trinity authorities declined to comment Saturday.

But a spokesman for the church's national headquarters said it is "customary and appropriate" to provide housing for retired clergy, especially those who have served the church for many years. .......



More at link...

[MADem]

55. You'd have to ask a Catholic who followed it closely. I know it was hidden for decades.

And it only came out as attitudes changed about reporting abuse.

Where did I call his preaching 'evil?' Don't put words in my mouth.

Look, you don't have to LIKE the way his words are being taken, but you need to understand that the REASON Obama dumped Wright--HARD--is because Wright was SCREWING Obama. There's no reconciliation going to happen there. I don't think you realize that. Defending the church and feeling that you're helping Obama is an unproductive exercise, at this stage.

That woman on MSNBC (lovely young lady, she is) lived in Chicago for ten years, she was NOT a member of the church, she was a "guest congregant" and attended only about six times, she said. She talked to others who attended regularly, and discussed her anecdotal findings.

I cite, because that's how we do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPTTWtLocwg

[ShortnFiery]

19. Hell, it took me almost 15 years to realize that The Clintons don't "give a damn" about the American

People. All that The Clintons and their beloved DLC care about is lining their own pockets while they serve the interest of their big CORPORATE backers. They must LAUGH AT the working class people who have been PUNKED to vote for them by the whorish M$M.

Hell, I feel disrespected by Both Clintons. I can understand how you can *think* that you know someone for years, yet FINALLY realize that you really didn't know them at all.

WE ALL have had that experience with either a long term friendship and/or family member. Don't Lie ... we've ALL been there.

[truedelphi]

62. Okay and what is your point? Did every single Catholic on this board

Denounce their pedophile priests way back in the 1970's??

I mean, some Catholics were setting up play dates for their kids with the Parish Priests, and not even able or willing to figure out what was going on in those play dates.

Like the OP says, people tend to overlook whatever aspect of the ministry they are in denial about or unaware of etc.

Those of you on Clinton's side do not seem to want to understand how INSIDIOUS this new politics of "Every candidate has to vet every person they ever sat next to in a pew at church, or had as a teacher, or met with after class for beers" happens to be.

Maybe you will get it when it comes back to bite Hillary and all of Clinton supporters on your collective butts.

[MADem]

67. Let's flip your little question, shall we?

Who, pray tell, didn't "denounce" the behavior of the pedophiles once they got the word? Who DEFENDED them? Anyone? Who said, "Awww, I know Father SoAndSo likes to screw little boys, but he's like a crazy uncle, donchaknow...I could no more disown him than I could my own pedophiliac grandfather!!"

You're mixing apples and oranges. As I said, those priests weren't screwing the altar boys ON THE ALTAR.

Wright was doing his thing OUT FRONT, not hiding it, not in secret. And he was proud of it, too.

When Obama supporters like Spike Lee are telling Wright to STFU, I'd say Wright is an issue. Don't blame CLINTON because Obama's judgment in this area was poor and weak.

http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,2277229,00.html

[truedelphi]

72. Plaid Adder wrote a much more thoroughly thought out and much

better worded response to all this and it is in his journal here
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Plaid%20Adder

We all have "alliances" with people that are less than perfect.

And if we are dealing with people inside of a political process, we don't go around denouncing people unless necessary.

As an anti pesticide activist, I have become buddies with people who are right wing, and with whom I disagree on issues not related to pesticides. But I don't denounce these people because I have something to gain from the alliance.

Do you really find it okay to have this constant vetting of a candidate in terms of their relationship with every single person that they know and no matter what the relationship - you can knock down the candidate for not "denouncing" that person??

I would rather have the issues being discussed.

[MADem]

78. I don't believe in "two wrongs make a (w)right" comparisons.

Oh, those Catholics were worse....at least he isn't a FLDS MUSLIM, fachrissake! The association has to stand on its own, not in relation to other "sins" or wrongs.

That alliance with Wright was political. It was eight thousand votes in his district. He got votes and organization, in exchange for a tax deductible contribution. His problem--and his judgment issue--was that he STAYED TOO LONG.

He should have made the move to suburbia and distanced himself a LONG time ago. Become a "guest congregant" and aligned himself with something a big more conservative, perhaps liturgical, but predominantly black. Maybe a nice AME church with a good daycare and Sunday school.

I actually DO find it OK to constantly vet candidates. You think the GOP is going to invoke Queensbury rules any time soon? Better to know NOW, in the primary, than enjoy a fucked up October Surprise in the general.

And the sooner we vet, the sooner we CAN get on to those issues. At the primary level, though, it's up to us to research and decide on a favorite. The debates are unhelpful, because there are too many people, and when it gets down to two, there's unwillingness to go head to head unless it's absolutely vital.

[truedelphi]

82. I enjoy any and all puns

But again, the focus should be on the candidate themnselves, and the issues, not on letting the media spin whatever they want any time they want into a big brouhaha.

I hated Dean getting shoved aside because the media manipulated the sound level on his screams.

I hated Kerry's swiftboating, which was so extensive that Jon Stweart asked Kerry, "Senator, you never really were in Vietnam were you?" Granted Kerry was tongue in cheek, but many voters are marginally intelligent and really thought that everything that was said was true.

And I equally hate this brouhahah over Wright.

[TLM]

80. So do you think hillary is responsable for everything said by the people in her church? n/t

[Saturday]

4. How can you not understand Obama is FUNDING this war you

object to so strongly? And lack of judgement by any other person does not excuse Obama for having poor judgement. And I might add that I have never gone to a church where the personality of the Pastor wasn't important to me. He had his little girls sit there and listen to hate speech for their entire lives. Disgusting.

[noel711]

8. How can you assume that every sermon was hateful?

If he was such a hate-filled preacher, how did this church,
a mainstream church, not a cult, how did it grow to 8,000 members?

Oh, and about the War... Obama has clarified that he, like many senators,
voted the funds to help the troops. I don't like that at all, but
that's what we got right now...

[bpeale]

57. it only takes one hateful sermon to cause a migration out

[Fresh_Start]

5. Illogical argument

just because there are some pew sitters...doesn't mean that Obama was a pew sitter.
He called Rev Wright his spiritual mentor. He named his book after a Rev Wright sermon.
Obama admits to having sat through 'controversial' sermons so he can't even claim he didn't hear Rev Wright misperforming.

[noel711]

9. "Spiritual mentor..." odd term... I remember Wright saying..

that he NEVER was Obama's mentor or advisor, but his pastor.
I don't remember Obama saying that either.. but I do remember
Pat Buchanan/chris Matthews/ Joe Scarborough saying that.

My remembrance of Obama was that he said he never heard a hate-filled sermon...

I'm the pastor to 452 people but I don't consider myself their
'spiritual mentor"... that is a term of intimacy that doesn't apply
to every individual.

"The Audacity of HOpe" was taken from a line of a sermon..
A line.. And it doesn't sound so 'hate filled' to me.

[Yossariant]

14. He's not my milkman. He's just the guy who delivers the milk.

Barack should be ashamed of himself --- if he weren't so fucking arrogant.

He thinks everybody is stupid, but him.

[noel711]

26. Is the milk deliverer.. a milkman?

A milk deliverer can the the farmer driving the milk truck
to the store... A milkman.. are there milkmen anymore?

Not every pastor is a spiritual advisor.

As I said earlier, I 'pastor over 400 folks,
But I am NOT the spiritual advisor to them all.

There IS a difference.

[JuniperLea]

61. I don't think many, or any, of Wright's detractors...

Have listened to him beyond the sound bites. I wanted to hate him, to call him racist, etc. After actually listening to him, in the Moyers interview and after, I saw where these things were cherry picked. Wright is nothing like the sound bites. He walks the talk. His church is taking care of a lot of people.

My only problem with this whole deal is that first Obama said he could no sooner disown Rev. Wright than he could his own grandmother... guess his grandmother best watch her step or she'll end up under the bus too!

I don't think Wright has a hateful bone in his body. I think Obama has taken bad advice from his wranglers.

[Tab]

7. Thanks for the alternate viewpoint

I'm not taking a position, because I don't know all the facts. I'm not an Obama fan, but I'm not against him either. His disavowal of his preacher suddenly, however, seems disingenuous, and may backfire, but be that as it may....

My understanding is that Rev. Wright gave three sermons that Sunday, and three DIFFERENT ones. Obama might have been present at one, but not the one in question. So I'll give him that benefit of the doubt.

I agree with you - I'd be hard pressed to be giving different sermons multiple times a week and make them good ones - it's like writing a newspaper/magazine column and feeling obliged to be incredibly influential on each one - in reality, most probably fall by the wayside. So I don't know what really happened.

If anything, what bothers me is Obama's quickness to disavow and discard his preacher. It may be a political necessity, but it's striking the wrong chord with me. And I'm not formally religious either.

[noel711]

10. I think Obama was pushed by advisors to take a stand..

and from my view, he was very uncomfortable doing it.

But politics demands difficult things from us.

This political season is making a mockery of the integrity
and character of all of the candidates. I think its almost
impossible for a person to remain true to themselves when
the demands of the political life expect them to be all things
to all people. This whole situation, for all the candidates,
whether you like them or not, is sad and destructive.

[Tab]

11. I respectfully disagree

The mockery started here:



and it's just been downhill ever since.

[TahitiNut]

12. Well, that was 2004. In 2008, she's supporting Hillary.

:evilgrin: That IS, after all, Hillary's demographic. Right? :eyes:

[4themind]

65. I respect your position although..

while you may view it as quickness, he seems to be taking the brunt of criticism for not "discarding" him quickly enough (or 19+ years ago). Everyone will have their own sense and sensibilities as to what quick is and what "too slow" is, so I respect disagreement on that. Also Wright's characterization of obama as a 'politician who says what we needs to do to get elected' , contrasts with a central theme of his canidacy (whether people buy into that or not), and maybe that's what crossed the line in obama's eyes, some may define that as pandering/desertion others as adaptation/evolution to a changing situation, opinions and definitions will vary. Maybe he's triangulating or maybe he's putting his idea of competency (not saying what he believes to be offensive/stupid) over loyalty. Just presenting some alternative viewpoints for you to consider. Thanks!

[Tennessee Gal]

13. I disagree. I know what my pastor says even when I am not there.

I would have left that church years ago.

Obama did not.

[TahitiNut]

15. Horse pucky.

:shrug:

[Tennessee Gal]

16. Same to you. There are ways of knowing what a pastor says

when one is not there.

I would have left.

[noel711]

That is your choice...

But is your church 8,000 members?

[Tennessee Gal]

18. What difference does the membership number make?

Sermons are recorded in every church these days.

[noel711]

23. Every church? do you attend EVERY church?

I've pastored 5 congregations... most of them only recorded
specific services: Christmas, anniveraries, Easter. They didn't have the finances to record every single service.

And, in regard to size, most folks who belong to a large, mega-church (over 2,000 members)Cannot chat with everyone...in larger churches, its impossible to be friendly with everyone...

In a large church, there are worship services at different times,
often the sermons at these different services are preached by
different pastors, or different sermons....

I have a Saturday evening service, and preach a different sermon to that group...Sunday morning is a different crowd totally. The Saturday group rarely associate with the Sunday group. So The Sunday congregations rarely knows what goes on during a Saturday service. It's not 'one size fits all.'

[Tennessee Gal]

24. Good grief! Recording a service costs very little.

My church is very small and we do it.

I suspect Rev. Wright's church had plenty of money.

[noel711]

29. Recording costs 'little'?

First you need the equipment, then you need someone
to 'master' the sound board, print up the discs or tapes,
(and each of them is expensive), and then depending on
how many you print, that's an expense.

And then do you sell them? Or give them away?

Every parish I've pastored has had financial sensitivity.
To do a tape ministry can cost thousands...

Sure Wright's church has money, and much of it goes
to outreach...

I can't speak for Wright or his church, but I can speak
to my experience, and keeping a parish afloat costs bucks....

[JuniperLea]

36. You are making a fool of yourself...

And you are proving you haven't set foot in a church for a while. Every single church I've set foot in since 1979, from the richest to the poorest, has had recording equipment so they can send tapes to shut-ins. It's common knowledge to people who actually know about churches.

[noel711]

42. Haven't set foot in a church in a while...???

Tell that to my parishoners...:)

HOw do I get into the pulpit and not be in a church!

Common knowledge? As I said earlier, I've pastored
a number of churches who did not have the finances
to to that. Blanket statements just don't fit here...

If my parish has 'extra' cash, we sent it to the local
food bank, or to the local homeless shelter...

Would you like my bishop's phone number so you can tell him
I haven't been about the business of my flock because you
know by my experience that I'm lying? SAd...

[JuniperLea]

43. Pretty snarky for a man of the cloth

You make shit up too, which makes me think you are pulling my leg. And talk about blanket statements! You should read your own posts above!

Perhaps our differences in perspective is due to the fact I have lived all my life in CA and you are in PA. There are many cultural differences between these two states.

All that being said, plenty of people have made it to the pulpit that had no business being in charge of a church.

[noel711]

45. I'm not a MAN of the cloth,, I'm a Woman... of the cloth..

And what shit did I make up? Help me out here...

Absolutely cultural differences between PA and CA...'Heck when I first came out here from the midwest, I was stunned by the cultural difference
between the east coast and the midwest.

And I have known plenty of people who were ordained who had no
business being in the 'business.' Like any profession there
are 'poseurs' as my daughter calls them. For those of us who try
to take our calling seriously, it can be difficult.

[JuniperLea]

53. The broad brush about recording systems in churches

Your experience has been a polar opposite to mine, even in the tiny churches. My great-grandmother and dozens of tapes by her easy chair, and I brought her a new one every Sunday afternoon... and took some of the older tapes she no longer listened to and passed them on to many other seniors on our list. Even the tiniest, 200 member church had recording devices. Not all recording set ups are as pricey as what you are describing.

You may want to check out my post below... it may clue you in to why I have a unique perspective where "people" of the cloth are concerned. Fool me once, shame on you...

[noel711]

58. I'm not trying to fool you... just express myself...

In my humble experience, many 'shut-in' have trouble with anything
technical, be they cassette tapes, or DVDs.. and many have trouble hearing, so tapes, etc, are a burden.

What we've done is hire a visitation pastor, an older guy who loved to talk, and the shut-ins love Pastor Jack. And we get a group that goes out and 'sings' old standards to the shut ins, so they get a thrill and a concert, and communion, etc.

There's many ways to do things...

[Qutzupalotl]

59. My church of 250 doesn't have recording devices.

They have some ancient hearing-assisted things in the pews that don't work.

You cannot speak for all churches.

[JuniperLea]

60. I'm not

I'm speaking against speaking for all churches.

:hi:

[MADem]

69. TUCC has cameras in the church. You can watch the services ONLINE.

You have to sign up and get a password.

It is a service they've provided to shut ins for years.

Yep, they record EVERY service, and have for years. And they SELL the "best" ones in the gift shop.

[Coexist]

17. Watch this clip - the good stuff begins about 1:08 in.

http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=167399

I'd post it, but I'm fresh out.

Donna Brazile comes on after and flirts with Stephen

[aquarius dawning]

20. He did sit in the pew for 20 years and he did baptize his kids and he did marry him to his wife

and you can't tell me that he didn't know what Wright was all about after 20 years. pretty poor judgment on his part if he didn't know for that matter.

[Tennessee Gal]

21. I agree.

[Skidmore]

30. We've belonged to the same church for 20 years, and

we don't attend regularly. We don't have a personal relationship with the minister either. He gave first communions to my kids. We listen to his sermons when we attend. Otherwise that is the only contact we have with him. If he's said something controversial when we've not been there, we don't know of it. Lots of people attend church the way we do in this day and age. Keep harping on that one. Only fundamentalists track that way.

[aquarius dawning]

35. barack called him his spiritual advisor and mentor. His words, not mine.

That doesn't sound like a casual relationship such as the one you described.

[JuniperLea]

44. And this is where the problem lies...

Obama flip flopped, plain and simple. He could no sooner denounce Wright than he could his own grandmother, right? I guess his grandmother is on shaky ground too.

[redqueen]

22. ...

:thumbsup:

[JuniperLea]

25. I think all y'all are barking up the wrong tree on this

If you listen to what both Wright and Obama are really saying instead of trying your best to find something to get all pissed about, you will find they are saying the same thing.

They are different men. They are both good men. They have different jobs. Nowhere is it written that a person must agree 100% with everything their pastor says.

I love Rev. Wright. It's so rare to find a pastor who walks the talk. I love what he has done with his church... he's doing exactly what Jesus tried to teach the world to do. There's not a damn thing wrong with anything he's said. If you think there is, you need to go beyond the sound bites and listen to him fully for more than a minute at a time.

There's no good reason this should have been a big deal.

[ShortnFiery]

28. "I love Rev. Wright. "

What tells me that some of "your love" for Rev. Wright is based on the concept that his recent egomaniac grandstanding could possibly be USED by the M$M to give your heroine, The Goddess of M.E. Obliteration, the Democratic Nomination? :evilgrin:

We got your number Juniperx. ;)

Not. This. Time.

[JuniperLea]

32. What a stretch

You sure have some imagination there.

[ShortnFiery]

33. Perhaps I'm JADED by my cynical nature as well as my background in Psychology ...

and the four years serving as an military intelligence officer.

Unlike HRC and her surrogates, I could be wrong ... but I think NOT. ;)

[JuniperLea]

34. Welcome to ignore

I've had just about enough of your condescension.

[ShortnFiery]

41. That's a shame. I understand people putting others on "ignore" but it shuts down communication.

Oh well, "refuting and ignoring" would-fit in with my concept of what makes a die-hard DLC Clintonian supporter.

Best wishes to you and yours ... when you scamper back to your home site, please say "Hey" to Maddy for me? :-)

[JuniperLea]

46. It has nothing to do with a difference of opinion

I discuss many differences of opinion here... hell, I've even become good friends with a few people I've had knock down drag out arguments with. Maddy being one of them. She knows full well I can't support either Clinton or Obama, and that I will hold my nose and vote for the Dem in the GE.

This is about being condescending and rude... and life being too short for geniuses who think they are being witty when they are actually simply crass and boorish.

[ShortnFiery]

64. That's your opinion. IMO, the only thing "in the center of the road" is yellow lines and road kill

It's also a little too convenient to "feign indignation" and put me on "ignore."

In conclusion, I'm being 100% sincere when I surmise, based on your past behaviors, you are going to vote for The Clintons.

I still respect you albeit you have seemingly "rose above." :hi:

[futureliveshere]

27. Thanks for this refreshing sense of "Perspective". I only wish you were able to get on MSM to say it

[ksoze]

37. His language was not just in the pulpit

as evidenced by his other non pulpit speaking engagements and the campaign starting to distance themselves when OB announced.

[dogday]

38. I left my church cause my Pastor was always crying crocodile tears..

When he had to announce his daughter was getting a divorce, he just stood up there and cried like a baby... At that moment, I realized what a fake he was.. It only took two years till I left that church...

[JuniperLea]

48. The FIRST church I left was due to the pastor having an affair

with one of the married parishoners... and then his wife slit her wrists upon learning of his dalliances. This was a good 20 years before the whole Jim and Tammy Faye fiasco.

The second church I left, at the tender age of 17, was where I started a music ministry of my own... I was rockin! I regularly filled the congregation with new people who had come to hear me sing. Long story short, two very horrific things happened within a week of each other. First, one of the church elders told me I had to "tone it down"... Put Your Hand in the Hand and Oh Happy Day were too much, he said, too "worldly". I said the Lord worked in mysterious ways, and I felt he was the one to put those tunes on the "worldly" rock radio stations. He didn't agree, to put it mildly. "That beat comes straight from the depths of HEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!" The second strike was when I was cautioned about the black kids from my school who came to hear me sing... the church elder felt they belonged in "their own church." I said, this is the point, they don't have a church and would like for us to be their church. That didn't fly. So I did.

[noel711]

54. Hey Juni, your story is more typical than unusual...

In my professional life, I've known several pastoral 'lotharios,'
who were dealt with swiftly and judiciously by their bishops...
but it happens more than we'd like..

And I'd love to hear your music. Sadly, in many parishes there are
'music' wars fought by those who are stuck in the past, and those who
think music, good music, can reflect our times, and still express the gospel message. (Although "O Happy Day' and "Put your Hand' are pretty tame in today's standard....:)

The comment about the kids? We have something similar going on in my current parish... the 'old guard' think the church belongs to them...
and I've been 'stirring 'the pot with activities, meals, attractions to bring in the neighborhood 'city' kids... because, frankly, we need them more than they need us... we also have a parish school, but we're way off topic.

I keep sayin' when I retire, I"m writing a book.. under an pseudonym..

[dogday]

70. I was 17 and in my church choir and school choir

I love to sing.... Another thing we have in common friend... :hug:

[thoughtcrime1984]

39. Those who say that are NOT progressive

By the very definition, they are not.

[elixir]

49. Thanks for the great thoughts! Rock on Obama!!

[zulchzulu]

50. The mainstream media needed a story to fill up 40 days between MS and PA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5759812&mesg_id=5759812

People are such suckers.

Wail until we go to "official" war with Iran. The same suckers who believed this Wright BS will gladly be suckers for the Next War.

[bpeale]

56. sorry. you are who you associate with

he sat in that pew for 20 yrs & this is the first time he has a difference of opinion with him? oh puleez! you stay because you are like minded. the last place i would be a 'pew sitter' is in a church with a pastor i disagree with.

[backscatter712]

63. K&R!!!

[ampad]

68. But did the good Rev

Every call folks Niggers? Can I get an amen for the hypocrisy of some of you Hillary supporters in this thread! AMEN!

[TheDudeAbides]

77. Give me a break

[TheDudeAbides]

71. It's a bigger issue than you realize

Black Liberation Theology is a controversial movement that is viewed by many experts
as a separatist movement. It runs in direct contradiction to the Obama "brand" as
a great unifier of people of all races, genders, educational and economic backgrounds.

For this reason, people are hurt and confused by Obama's choice.

The problem is bigger than Rev Wright.

Unfortunately, whenever the issue is brought up, we only encounter anger. Thus, the concern grows
and the polls continue to slide.

[noel711]

73. It's only an issue because the MSM keeps it that way....

The MSM, and many others, dissect Liberation Theology and deign it to be a separatist movement,
but any theology that appeals to a specific group can wear that term.

True Liberation theology is supposed to reach out and offer answers and hope to people shut out of the mainstream. Liberation Theology originated in South America, to the poverty there in spite of
colonialistic oppressive governments. This theology translated well to the racial divide in the
USA. But the MSM only can take the easiest route out of this controversy, and boil it down
to 'racist divide,' rather that speaking hope and truth to those oppressed.

There are many other separatist theologies that survive very well in our country: Look at the FLDS cult, and the tragedy unfolding in Texas. That's pretty separatist.
There are also 'mainstream' churches that preach incredible stupidity: the notion of the 'rapture' where 'true believers' are zapped up to heaven; the theology of success... if you simply follow the preacher, you'll become a millionaire. And the theology of REv. Hagey, a strong pro-Israeli cult, that claims once the temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt, Jesus will come back, take his flock to heaven and the rest of us will rot in hell... he leaves out the part that the Jews won't get into heaven either. Of course, none of these are running for president, oh wait, isn't John McCain arm in arm with Hagey? I know I know, the argument goes: McCain isn't his parishoner, he just asked Hagey to endorse him.. that's pretty strong in my book, but there's never any MSM examining McCain's judgment.. IMO, McCain is being given a free pass over too many things.

Sadly, this whole endless pathetic argument pops open the labeling that anyone we associate with 'tars' us with whatever their reputation they've earned for themselves. It's very narrow minded to believe that anyone who associates with a certain pastor obviously mirrors all of their beliefs. As I've said before, and many here concur: the pastor is not the church. The pastor is an employee of the church, and any pastor is as human as any one of the parishoners.

I doubt that when Obama joined Trinity church he considered running for president. He was working on the south side of Chicago, and there were two 'happening' congregations. He and Michelle chose Trinity, not only because of Wright, but because of all the ministries to the community. Let's be honest: He made the choice because it opened doors to community influence. I doubt he 'vetted' the pastor, but of course he must have found him a good pastor. To build up that church from 80 people to 8,000 he must have done some good work somehow...

If you took a survey of my parishoners, and asked them: "Do you agree with Pastor 100% of the time?"
They'd laugh you out of church.

Most folks are over this issue, it's the MSM who keep flogging that dead horse.

[TheDudeAbides]

75. Oh my...I don't even know where to begin

So you are saying that because there are other separatists theologies that survive in this country...that we should not question this Presidential candidates claims that he is a unifier? My friend, I witnessed the beauty of the civil rights movement of the 60s. I will not vote for a person whose mindset revolves around racial separatists notions. Neither will any person who really cares about the future of racial unity in our society.

Stop blaming this on everyone else like the "MSM" or the freepers, etc. It's a real issue; basically, I represent the mindset that many many many voters will have in November. We cannot dismiss this as a non-issue.

This has very little to do with Rev Wright. It's bigger than that. Why would a great unifier of people choose a separatist theology? Why would one teach his children to view the world in terms of black (oppressed victims) and white (oppressors)?

[Hoof Hearted]

74. Wright didn't baptize the kids? He didn't sit there for 20 years?

???

[Barack_America]

76. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to reject and denounce you.

:P

I kid, I kid.

Thanks for the great post!

[rodeodance]

79. Not a RW meme as you say. as it is true. So stop LYING>

If I hear that RW meme one more time I shall scream.

[noel711]

81. My last word on this....

I apologize to anyone who was offended by my original post.
Sadly, even folks who claim to be progressives can be off base on this issue.

I too grew up in the '60s, in fact, I was living on the south side of Chicago when Dr. King marched for equality.. I saw the news reports of the response of the white neighborhoods to his plea... he and his peaceful marchered were stoned, and vilifed, and mown down by fire hoses...It was life changing for me to learn that the community and family that I lived in... were saturated in hate and prejudice. Although King is honored today as a martyr, in the '60s he was hated because of his plea for change. Many of the sermons Dr. KIng preached were interpreted as being a threat. WE look back thru the lens of where we are today, but in truth, we all had a long way to come to truth.

I don't see REv. WRight as a separtist nor as a hate monger. His preaching was to make people think.
It's much too easy to take the easy way out, and adopt the simplistic attitude that we hear in the media.

The deeper issue is that all of this is a distraction from the campaign. We are losing an opportunity to grow and change as a nation because we are so caught up in racial issues. If we don't get beyond this, we will end up with another repubican administration.

I watched Bill MOyers on Friday, and he gave a thoughtful commentary about what's going on in our national and tragic response... Moyers says it well: "Beware the simplifiers."

Below is a link to DailyKos who has the Moyers commentary up. There's a segment of a transcript to this story. And a long list of responses to MOyers/Wright. This isn't a simplistic issue, and sadly,
when we say that the others pastors in prominance aren't held to the standard that he is.. well, read the MOyers story.

And I'm done with this issue.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/3/173827/4408/20/508482

[gbrenna]

83. Republican strategy

Going back to the McCarthy days...Republicans have used the guilt by association tactic. This is exactly that. As for pastors, I have sat in the pew when mine made comments that I disagreed with-so what. You have to consider the entire church. This church is a very good church and has helped many people.